BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage

Subject: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 07:53 AM

The Canadian parliament passed a bill last night which will lead to the eventual passing into law of the same sex marriage act. Contrary to the bleating of various religious zealots this law is not anti religion or anti family, it is designed to give equal rights to a minority group under the Charter of Rights.

Contrast this with John Ashcroft ordering the covering up of statuary in the Great Hall of the justice department because of nudity.

I'm proud to live in a progressive country.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:03 AM

Well, I beg to differ. Now that my neighbors have legalized it, I must question the strength of my own marriage. Somehow when the abusive marriage next door disolved (with the police intervening on several occasions), when the two friends I have who got married against the advice of everyone who knew them, I did not feel threatened. But now that two people who cannot together have children but who might still have a very loving and enduring bond may legally do it up North, my marriage is threatened to the core. I shit you not. You "progressives" can shove that "progress" where the sun don't shine. (Um, can I have some, please?)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:07 AM

I'm surprised they didn't legalize it years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:15 AM

Should people be allowed to marry their siblings or their parents? A lot of liberal minded people who are all for gay marriages draw the line at extending the same rights to incest practioners.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,justahoser
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:26 AM

According to Stephen Harper, you can write your thank-you notes to the Bloc for that one. At the same time, you might ask when we can look forward to their next attempt to demolish this great nation? I have a few laws I'd like them to ok (for my benefit and the benefit of all Canadians) before they carry out their mandate.

And as a postscript, would you please find out if the two guys in business suits necking for the cameras on the national news last night made them feel warm and tingly all over too?

Please tell them I felt even more warm and tingly when I heard Dorothy Homolka is moving to Montreal to help her daughter "settle in" there in a few days. What an amazing, wonderful, progressive, brilliant country we live in!

Does me proud.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 09:05 AM

The union of two people can be made lawful. "Marriage" on the other hand should be the provenance of Religion. In short, civil unions should be permitted under the law (and find that divorce is just as easy or difficult as the law makes it). Marriage, traditionally a "sacrament," should be regulated by the churches -- if your church choses to "bless" the civil union, fine; if it does not, fine too. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 09:14 AM

Rapaire

No church will be compelled to perform this "sacrament" if it doesn't accept same sex unions.

greg stephens

Incest is illegal, homosexuality is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM

jeez Rapaire, I didn't realize that I have not been married for for 30+ years, no one ever told us. I'll have to advise one of my little bastards not to consider herself and the prospective groom really married in two weeks time, despite the marriage ceremony and the vows they will be taking.

Then again, she may, after learning what has been said on this thread, regarding the unholiness of their union, find it preferable to think of herself too, as one of the civilly united instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 12:27 PM

Re Canada, you can have a religous ceremony but unless you sign the "government documents", you are not considered legally married.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM

ditto in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 12:40 PM

I don't know if what Rap is saying is the same thing I believe or not, so let me spell out my position:

I think that every domestic partnership should be a civil ceremony, in other words, a union recognized and sanctioned by the state, with all the privileges, rights and responsibilities that the state allows and requires. If a couple wants to go further and have 'God' recognize and sanction their partnership, they can apply to the church, synagogue, or temple of their choice. At that point, if their c/s/t does not approve their merger, it can refuse, and the couple can apply to the next one.

That would get 'the church' out of the grips of the state and keep the state out of the church's clutches. It should be a concern of the church. I am surprised that this solution has not developed - nay, been demanded- over the years of transition from a religious state to a secular one.

I am not alone in this. It's not going to be changed next year but it makes sense that it will come.

Incest? Oh, puhleese. Siblings and parents can already live together and no one blinks an eye. I remember a time when unmarried couples - even heterosexual ones - could be prosecuted for cohabitation. And when checking into a motel together required fake ID.

Thanks for the laugh, Saul. You scared me at first.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:16 PM

Actually in British Columbia Ebbie, that exists, as I suppose it does in most areas of Canada and the US. In BC, you may be married by a Marriage Commissioner or a religious representative of your choice, as long as the religious reprsentative is registered with the British Columbia Vital Statistics Agency under the Marriage Act, which in effect grants he or she the power to represent the government as well, in this instance. I wonder if Brother Twelve was registered?

Whichever you choose, you still have to obtain a license from the state and register the marriage with the state. So in effect, all marriages, whether there has been a religous ceremony involved or not are civil unions. Same sex marriages have been legal in BC since 2003.....Oh dear, I feel threatened. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:39 PM

Apparently there's at least one Canadian MP who agrees with you Ebbie ...

Conservative MLA Ted Morton has proposed the province withdraw from sanctioning all marriages, instead registering civil unions and leaving marriage to religious orders.

Well, let's hear it for Alberta! Sounds like a much more reasonable and intelligent solution to me!

This issue is far from being resolved in Canada anyway. One Liberal Cabinet Minister resigned last night rather than being forced to vote with his party against the desires of his constituents and his own personal conscience. And according to the CBC article at the link ...

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper says if his party forms the next government, the law will be revisited.

Harper made the promise one day after suggesting the adoption of the law lacked legitimacy because it relied on the support of the separatist Bloc Quebecois.

Harper said he believes Bloc MPs are the legitimate representatives of Quebec voters. But he argues most Canadians aren't buying it as a final decision since most federalist MPs are opposed to same-sex marriage.

Harper says a Conservative government would hold a free vote for all MPs on the matter, rather than forcing cabinet ministers to vote with the government.

The Senate still has to vote on the bill.

Well! I never thought I'd see the day but, hear hear Stephen Harper!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:46 PM

" "Marriage" on the other hand should be the provenance of Religion."

Bullshit...   I am VERY anti-religion, and I'm happily married...

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:49 PM

Guess we'll have to change a lot of things in the English language too.

Let not the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds
Or bends with the remover to remove.
O no, it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken.
It is the star to every wand'ring bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
      
                      William Shakespeare

Hmmmmm, now let see....

Let not the civil union of true minds.....

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM

"Harper made the promise one day after suggesting the adoption of the law lacked legitimacy because it relied on the support of the separatist Bloc Quebecois."

Is thst the same Bloc Quebecois he sought the support of when he sought a non confidence vote against the Liberal government?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:01 PM

ooh, someone goofed on the William Shakespear quote I pasted, if I recall from my memorization in English class, the word "impediment" is correctly singular, not plural.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:02 PM

Strange bedfellows, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:09 PM

Yeah.....I really want someone like Jim Jones sanctioning my marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM

It was the "free vote" part of what Harper said that I really wanted to "hear hear" Metchosin. Perhaps what we need is another Charlottetown-type referendum, where ALL Canadians could finally vote for themselves on this most "personal" of issues.

And methinks, in all fairness, that such a referendum would best be funded by the gay lobby groups themselves - NOT with federal funds!

As to what Harper said about the Bloc, well ... why is it that in Canada we must tolerate an organization committed to destroying our country?   Not only must we tolerate it, but we must even give it authority to make vitally important national decisions on behalf of the rest of us? Do you think the Bloc MP's care one IOTA about what's best for Canada, or Canadians?

What a farce!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

" Do you think the Bloc MP's care one IOTA about what's best for Canada, or Canadians?"

I don't think they even have CLUE ONE aobut what is best for Canada... or themselves

But that's off topic...

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM

Yeah and while we're at it lets hold some referendums about those damned Seiks and Indians too. Let's really put some minority rights to the test in this country and find out just how stinking fair the average Canadian is.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM

Ebbie said what I was trying to say. It was early and I was tired.

There are two components to "marriage": the civil and the religious. If two people tie the knot in a civil ceremony it's CURRENTLY legal, even if it is NOT recognized by their religion (e.g., Catholicism). The union can be recognized by the religion later or not, as the couple sees fit.

Same thing with same sex marriage. The State should recognize it; the religions can do as they see fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:04 PM

And while I'm on a rant, why anyone who is gay would seek a religious sancition for their union I'm not sure, but what they choose in that baliwick and how they choose to live their lives is none of my fucking business. They have been granted equal rights under the Charter and they are bloody well entitled to it.

Did Carla Halmalka and Paul Bernardo had a lovely little church wedding?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:06 PM

And the law as just passed here recognizes that Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:07 PM

"why anyone who is gay would seek a religious sancition for their union"

Cause even some gay people believe in "God"

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:08 PM

"I really want someone like Jim Jones sanctioning my marriage." Methosin

But if you were a follower of Jones, you would have wanted his sanctioning it. And that's the whole point, I think.

Can't we just get along? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:20 PM

But if we don't, where's "democracy"?

Oh, that's right, I forgot - in Canada "democracy" means we must not only tolerate but fund, support, and sacrifice any conflicting personal desires/principles/conscience as we endlessly prostrate ourselves before the "authority" of every "minority group" (read powerful-political-lobby-group-with-vested-interests) out there.

It means your "democratically elected" MP must vote the party line, regardless of his own opinions or the will of his/her constituents.

Or resign.

It means that Bills can be passed in Parliament aided and abetted by traitorous organizations; even Bills that blatantly disregard the stated desires of the majority of Canadians!

Gads I'm gettin myself all upset here. And what for?

Nothing. Please pardon me. As a Canadian, I count for diddley-squat anyway. I'm not Sikh, I'm not Indian, I'm not gay, I'm not even a Quebecer ... but hey!   I DO have this lovely old Maple in my front yard that's calling me to sit under it right now, count my blessing and let it allllll goooooo ....

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:28 PM

I don't see the problem. Me and the wife have been having the same sex for years and we're happily married...

Sorry - facetious, I know. Just trying to lighten the discussion up a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:30 PM

"Do you think the Bloc MP's care one IOTA about what's best for Canada, or Canadians?"

Whoa up. Perhaps a little more attention to Gilles' words and less to what you "think" he, and the PQ, stand for. Now, I am NOT going to get into a pissing contest here, BUT, some of the PQ are a lot more CANADIAN than some Canadians. That's right. And, they have the balls to say to the Feds and Big Business, Fuck You, you ain't gonna sell me down the river. Too hard line? Not by me.

When les guys, who represent one fucking third (!) of the voters in this country stand up and say WTF?, someone had better listen. If that "someone" wants Canada to be Canada, perhaps they should listen instead of baying at the moon. Together we stand, divided we get sold down the river.... and there's a few buyers looking things over as we post.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:31 PM

I'm not sure it is the whole point Ebbie, it seems to me that some are arguing that the word "marriage" can only be used in a religious sense and that some believe they have the "God" given right to have dominion over others.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: RichM
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:40 PM

One hundred years ago, chinese people were not allowed to vote in Canada, nor were native amerindians. Now All races are considered as legal persons.
In 1931, the British House of Lords determined, in an appeal of a prior Canadian Supreme Court rejection of women as "persons" that women are indeed, legal persons and equal to men in law.

And now homosexuals are fully legal persons, that have the right to marry.
My advice to those who disagree: Do you really want to be categorized along with racists and other bigots?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:44 PM

Lobby group, my ass *daylia*, all this group of "citizens" wanted was to bring Canadian law in line with what is already granted to them by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and if my MP can't be held to stand up for all rights granted to all citizens under the Charter, this is a very sad country indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:51 PM

"some of the PQ are a lot more CANADIAN than some Canadians"

Bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:54 PM

Lets also not forget that first nations people weren't granted the "right to vote" in this so called enlightened country until 1960.

It requires a bit more guts to stand up for minority rights in Parliament than it does for the average bigoted citizen to stuff a no vote in a secret referendum box.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:54 PM

My comments, by the way, apply to all countries -- not just Canada (a country I both like and respect very much).

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:00 PM

Well, that does make sense Metchosin. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that Canada, as "happy" and "gay" as it may or may not be, is any kind of "democracy".

And really, what does it matter whether gays "civilly unite" or "marry"? 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. They certainly are entitled to any and all of the "rights and freedoms" as any other Canadian (supposedly) enjoys.

By choosing to use the words "civil union" however, the same respect, tolerance, and "democratic freedoms and rights" enjoyed by homosexuals could also be enjoyed by those Canadians who prefer the word "marriage" to continue to mean the legal union of a man and a woman.

God or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM

Just don't make the mistake of thinking that Canada, as "happy" and "gay" as it may or may not be, is any kind of "democracy".


Of course it's a democracy, *daylia*. Do you really need that explaining or are you trying to make the point that your personal view is not solicited on everything covered in Hansard?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:09 PM

sorry Ebbie, but I haven't posted much of what has been on my mind and pissed me off since Mousethief accused me of polluting the Puget Sound or when gargoyle started going after kat. Its a momentary lapse and I promise I'll crawl back into my cave again. LOL..... And its a Canadian thread, eh? I still love them all dearly, even though I might disagree at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:22 PM

Just don't make the mistake of thinking that Canada, as "happy" and
"gay" as it may or may not be, is any kind of "democracy".

I don't *daylia*, but I'm not willing to "throw the baby out with the bath water", either. But first and foremost, I believe the quality of any democracy should be judged upon how well it protects and treats it's minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:28 PM

Metchosin, if you need something to read while you're hiding in that cave of yours ;~)   how's a little info bout Egale Canada ?

Just one example of the "groups of citizens" (but please NOT to be referred to as a wealthy-and-powerful-political-lobby-group-with-vested-interests) who made yesterday's Parliamentary "achievement" possible.

BPL, this is no doubt a really dumb question but what's Hansard?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:38 PM

Metchosin, I think you and I are on the same page- unless I misunderstand you.

I do not understand you, however,daylia. It escapes me to understand in what way any marriage is threatened by another's union. Does someone else's love imperil your own?

I happen not to be lesbian (I say 'happen', because I tend to believe that in most cases it is an inborn drive) but there is no homosexual person in this world who is a threat to me - unless he or she comes at me with an instrument of destruction or harm. Mentally, emotionally, politically and socially, they are you and me.

(Amd yes. I do remember what you have written on the subject before. It's just that I do not in most any way that I can think of agree with you. Time to grow up already. And that's what I think of that.)

I'm also curious as to why you consider Canada "not any kind of democracy". Don't you vote? Are you not able to change your representative political parties?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:49 PM

all old news *daylia*.

By the way, Hansard is the written transcript of what is said in parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 04:51 PM

Hansard is the daily (literal) report of everything that is said in the House.

(no such thing as a dumb question, *daylia* -- just dumb answers ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM

Ebbie, I rather doubt you remember what I've written before on this subject! You don't even seem to remember what I've said in this one! Where, pray tell, did I say that "marriage" is in any way "threatened by another's union"?

What I did say was ... By choosing to use the words "civil union" however, the same respect, tolerance, and "democratic freedoms and rights" enjoyed by homosexuals could also be enjoyed by those Canadians who prefer the word "marriage" to continue to mean the legal union of a man and a woman.

I do hope you see the difference!

According to Websters:

"Democracy: a: government by the people, especially rule of the majority; b: a gov't in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections..."

On paper, yes, but in practice? HA! Canada is no "democracy", nor has it ever been!! THe recent Parliamentary goings-on discussed in this thread are only the most recent evidence of that! As to your other questions -

Do I vote?

Well, why do you want to know???

Can I change my representative political parties?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Can you "change" your Republicans or Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:11 PM

CH.... "Bullshit"??? Are you a Canuck?

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

And thanks BPL and Metchosin, for enlightening me about Hansard. If that's considered a "primer" on democracy .... EGADS!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:19 PM

It is true, that Canada will permit same sex marriages, however it is against the wishes of the majority of canadians. at least 63 to 65% of canadians are opposed to it. This will be an election issue in a few years and the Liberals will lose many seats, even those liberals strong enough to vote against it. I have never voted conservative in my life but I will the next time around, and there are 7 votes if my immediate family and we all feel the same way. I am downright disgusted with it. I have no problem with a civil union, I have no problem with homesexuals being guaranteed all rights under the constitutions etc, but there is no was in hell that the union of two men can be equated with the union of a man and woman.

Having homeosexual tendencies is not illegal but acting on them is SODOMY, and SODOMY IS ILLEGAL IN CANADA.

I do not see this as progressive, in fact it is the oopposite, back to Sodom and Gomorrrah. This was a clear case of politicians not having the guts to go against the opinion of a percentage of the public. Gutless hypocrites all of them. I am totally ashamed to be canadian today.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: GUEST,Jimmy. C
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:22 PM

Sorry,

the last post was from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Legalizes Same Sex Marriage
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:24 PM

"no was in hell that the union of two men can be equated with the union of a man and woman"
Only if yer a biggoted jerk...

"SODOMY IS ILLEGAL IN CANADA"
Ya... lets see THAT enforced... as if...

"Wouldn't know a good blow-job if it snuck up on ya and jammed a finger up yer ass... "
Which I think is a quote from McLean and McLean...

:-P