Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 26 Jun 23 - 03:53 PM

Ray & Archie Fisher put this on an early 60s vinyl Topic EP - 'Far o'er the Forth' -4 excelent tracks & well worth seeking out

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 23 - 03:43 PM

Roud gives both Kilbogie and Glasgow Peggy the same number.

In the liner notes, Jean Redpath says:
Greig and Keith, in a note on "Kilboggie , or MacDonald o' the Isles," attempt to explain the relationship to "Glasgow Peggy" (Child 228) thus : "There is an estate and mansion-house of Kilbagie (also called Kilboggie) in the parish of Clackmannan, and it is at least a remarkable coincidence that the daughter of Forrester of Kilboggie married MacDonald of Keppoch in Lochaber in the first half of the 17th century (MacDonald dying in 1650). The conjecture may be made that the circumstances of the wedding suggested to someone a resemblance to the story in the already existing ballad of "Glasgow Peggy" and led to the composition of another modelled on the older one.”

Greig/Duncan quoting Duncan:
"It is not easy to settle the exact relation between this ballad and 'Glasgow Peggy'; but that there is a connection is clear enough. The plot and development of the story are the same; the names of Peggy and Macdonald are in both; some stanzas in the later part of this ballad are either modelled on 'Glasgow Peggy' or taken from it (9,10,13,14); and, to complete the connection, the tune is the same. Yet the greater part of the fifteen stanzas are quite different in matter from any version of 'Glasgow Peggy', and the name Kilboggie or Kilbagie is not found in any form of [Peggy].”

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: GUEST,diplocase
Date: 26 Jun 23 - 03:41 PM

Here is a great link for looking up Scots words:Dictionaries of the Scots Language - Dictionaries o the Scots Leid

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: GUEST,Rosie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:19 AM

Hey sorry bout' that last post bein' all crazy and hard to read!I've never posted on this forum,so hope you can puzzle it out!Rosie

Subject: Lyr Add: KILBOGIE (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: GUEST,Rosie
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 02:17 AM

Hey Doug! I'm a HUGE Dogs fan myself. Ian can be confounding to translate sometimes, bless his Doric-singin' heart! Maybe this'll help you rest:

Fen it's first tae tha Heilan's they cam
There wis nothin' there fittin' for a lady
There was naebody there tae welcome her hame
But an auld cankered carl and an auld doitered wifey

Well tha teen he ca'd her Lawlan Jean
An' tha tither she ca'd her Lawlan Jennie
But she's ca'd them a far better thing
It's ma' Heilan daddy an' ma' Heilan mamie

Translation: (from The Scots Dialect Dictionary, by Alexander Warrack)

cankered: cranky
carl: an old man
doitered: feeble minded from old-age
teen: the one
tither: the other
mamie: adopted/foster mother

I'm pretty good for Scots translation, so if you have any more (I love a challenge) [e-mail] Cheerio, Rosie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Doug
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:52 PM

Many thanks again, Malcolm.
Listened to the Silly Wizard 'Glasgow Peggy' too- similarities abounding. The Dogs are adept at Doric-ising, it's true, as well as other things. Their cajun-ising of "Benachie" still makes me smile every time I hear it.

Cheers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:21 PM

From a Jean Redpath record; the prior source is not named. Kilbogie

"Wee pickle heather", incidentally, should be "wee puckle heather"; that is, "a little bit of heather". It dries well enough, but I don't think it pickles all that well.

See also thread Lyr Req: Glascow Peggy, where a text recorded by Ewan MacColl is quoted. There are a further two examples in the DT; links and attributions (omitted in the DT files) are also provided in the discussion.

I wasn't accurate to say that traditional texts I'd seen provided no clues to the missing word. "Cankered" does occur in one (from Greig-Duncan), but applied to the wife:

But an aul carl an' a cankered wifie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:51 PM

there is a version in the DT

---

---

KILBOGIE

First when I cam' tae Kilbogie's toon
Wi' my short coat and my tartan plaidie
First when I cam' my bonnie love tae see
She stayed in her bed till her breakfast was ready

When her breakfast it was set doon
She said she had been tae the fields wi' her daddy
Weel I kent by the silk o' her hands'
She stayed in her bed till her breakfast was ready

When her breakfast it was set doon
It was set doon and it was made ready
Oot spake her mother untae her
"Hae naething tae dae wi' a Hielan' laddie"

They gaed oot tae tak' a walk
Tae tak a walk till the dinner was ready
He's set her up on his high horse back
An she's far, far awa' frae her hame in Kilbogie

When at last tae the Hielan's they cam'
There was naething there fitting for a lady
Naething was there for her tae lay on
But a wee pickle heather an'his tartan plaidie

"In my faither's hoose there's blankets and sheets
They are very white and bonnie
An' right angry my faither wad be
Tae see me lyin' here on yer tartan plaidie"

"In the Hielan's we've got plenty o' sheep
They are very thick and bonnie
It's ye'll get wool an' ye can spin
An mak ye a blanket instead o' a plaidie"

"A coach and six tae me prepare"
A coach and six was gotten ready
A coach and six tae tak' her a' the way
An' she's awa' back tae her home in Kilbogie

@Scottish @courtship
sung by Jean Redpath
filename[ KILBOGI
SOF

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Doug
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:27 AM

That's brilliant, thanks- cankered is definitely the front-runner. In fact, I'm more or less 100% sure.

Cheers, Malcolm. As a matter of interest, is there anywhere I would find a traditional Kilbogie text online?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:28 PM

Auld carls are frequently, by convention, cankered in songs (or dotard, though in this case that's the auld wifie). Those of us who haven't heard the recording can only guess more-or-less in the dark, of course. Traditional texts of Kilbogie that I know of are no help.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Doug
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:33 PM

Thanks for the suggestions. Have seen that linked site before and they blank the words and miss out the following verse totally.

I'll have another listen with the "cintra" in mind, thanks.

Doug

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:56 AM

Doug, the link goes to someone's effort to transcribe the OBD lyrics, I think. Give it a look. Hope it helps. Here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie (from Old Blind Dogs)
From: GUEST,Anna
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:01 AM

I thought of your request recently when I read that in Northern Ireland slang (sometimes similar to Scots) the word "carn" can mean a impolite, brutish person. Could this be the word? Two other suggestions I have: the word cintra or kintra can be used as an adjective...maybe it's "an auld kintra carl" meaning an old country man? Also, the word "caur" in Scots dialect can mean awkward, but I'm not sure if that's right if you heard an "ed" on the end of the word. Oh well, at least I've refreshed the thread, so maybe that will help!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbogie
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 01:18 AM

refresh

Subject: Lyr Req: Kilbogie
From: Doug
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 07:33 AM

I have most of the lyrics for the Old Blind Dogs "Kilbogie" but stuck on a couple of words. Hopefully someone can help me out.

It's the verses:
Then it's first tae the Hielan's they cam'
There was nothin' there fittin' for a lady
There was naebody there tae welcome her hame
But an auld ?carnted? carl and an auld doited wifie

Well, the tain he ca'd her Lallan Jane
And the tither she ca'd her Lallan Jennie
But she's ca'd them a far better thing
It's my Heiland daddy and my Heiland mennie

Would be grateful if anyone could help.

thanks

Doug