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Origins: Tigery Orum
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Subject: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 01 Jul 05 - 04:01 PM Seeking information on this version of the blind man he could see (Marrowbones, Old Woman from Wexford, Tipping it Up to Nancy, etc): Tigery Orum There was a pretty young woman and in Oxford she did dwell She loved her darling husband and another man twice as well Chorus (after each verse): To me tigery orum orum and beware of the likes of she Tigery orum orum and the blind man he can see Well she went to the doctor shop to see if she could find Anything at all that would make her old man blind. "Oh just you get some marrowbones and put them on to boil And when he suckles the marrow out he won't nothing see at all." Now the doctor sent to this old man and told him what she spoke. The husband thanked him kindly and he said he saw the joke. Well she got a pound of marrowbones and put them on to boil And when he suckled the marrow out he couldn't see anymore. "Which now I'm blind and comfortless and here I can't remain And I think I'd like to drown meself if I could find the stream." "You poor old man, you blind old man, I well see what you mean If you'd really like to drown yourself I'll take you to the stream." He says, "I'll stand on the river bank and you run up the hill And then run down and shove me in." Says she, "me love I will" So he stood on the river bank and up the hill she run And when she run down he stepped aside and headlong she went in. "Oh help, oh help, me husband dear," so loudly she did call, "Oh don't you remember that I'm gone blind and can't see nothing at all?" Now the old man being kindhearted and he knew she couldn't swim He got himself a very long pole and shoved her further in. A. L. Lloyd says this in his liner notes: "This waggish ballad seems to have begun life as a folk tale. It has very frequently been recorded in England, Scotland and Ireland, but for some reason seldom been published. It's also called: The Young Woman of Oxford or (in Scotland) The Wife of Kelso. It was exported to USA and took vigorous root there. A version without the marrowbone-blindness motif was adapted and copyrighted in the mid-19th century under the title: Johnny Sands; as such it was carried to various parts of the States by the Hutchinson family of entertainers. In our text, the point of the marrowbones joke show a bit clearer than usual. To judge by the tune, this version came into England from Ireland. It's a great favourite with children." But, maddeningly, he doesn't give the source. Is it from a broadside, and the tune, his own? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 03 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:40 PM Hi, L.S. - It's not a huge step forward, but take a look at this page (click) on Richard Zierke's site. I checked Lloyd's Folk Song in England, but found nothing there under "Tigery Orum" or "Marrowbones." -Joe Offer- Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on "Marrowbones": Marrowbones [Laws Q2]DESCRIPTION: An old wife goes to the doctor for a potion to blind her husband. The doctor suggests (eggs and) marrowbones. He says he wishes to die and asks her to push him off a cliff. As she runs to do so, he steps aside. She drowns; he says he cannot see to helpAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1874 (quoted in Mark Twain, "Life on the Mississippi") KEYWORDS: suicide trick drugs death FOUND IN: US(Ap,MA,MW,NE,SE,So) Britain(England(Lond,South),Scotland) Canada(Newf) Ireland REFERENCES (24 citations): Laws Q2, "The Old Wife of Slapsadam (The Wily Auld Carle; The Old Woman in Dover; etc.)" Belden, pp. 237-239, "Johnny Sands" (2 texts, but only the second, with no letter, is this piece) Randolph 754, "Johnny Sands" (2 texts, 2 tunes, but the "A" text goes with "Johnny Sands" [Laws Q3] while the "B" text belongs with this piece) Eddy 30, "An Old Woman's Story" (1 text) Flanders/Olney, pp. 13-14, "The Drowning Lady (The Witch Song)" (1 fragment, 1 tune, which might be either "Marrowbones" or "Johnnie Sands") Linscott, pp. 255-258, "The Old Woman in Dover" (1 text, 1 tune) FSCatskills 141, "The Old Woman from Boston" (1 text, 1 tune) Peacock, pp. 261-264, "Eggs and Marrow-Bones" (2 texts, 2 tunes) Leach-Labrador 113, "A Cruel Wife" (1 text, 1 tune) Karpeles-Newfoundland 39, "The Rich Old Lady" (1 text, 1 tune) Creighton-Maritime, p. 122, "Marrow Bones" (1 text, 1 tune) BrownII 182, "The Old Woman's Blind Husband" (2 texts) Chappell-FSRA 44, "The Old Woman" (1 text, 1 tune) Brewster 60, "An Old Woman's Story" (1 text) Doerflinger, p. 281, "The Wife of Kelso (The Wily Auld Carle)" (1 text, 1 tune) Sharp/Karpeles-80E 51, "The Rich Old Lady" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-FSNA 274, "The Rich Old Lady" (1 text, 1 tune) Chase, pp. 130-131, "The Rich Old Lady" (1 text, 1 tune -- with a second verse created by Chase) SHenry H174, p. 507, "The Auld Man and the Churnstaff" (1 text, 1 tune) Kennedy 208, "The Old Woman of Blighter Town" (1 text, 1 tune) JHCox 157, "An Old Woman's Story" (1 text) Darling-NAS, pp. 144-145, "There Was an Old Lady" (1 text) Silber-FSWB, p. 173, "Eggs And Marrowbones" (1 text) DT 344, MARBONES* MARBONE2* MARBONE3* MARBONE4 MARBON5 MARBON6* Roud #183 RECORDINGS: Horton Barker, "There Was an Old Lady" (on Barker01) Harry Cox, "Marrowbones" (on HCox01) Betty Garland, "Love My Darlin' O" (on BGarland01) A. L. Lloyd, "Tigery Orum" (on Lloyd1) Lawrence Older, "Woman from Yorkshire" (on LOlder01) Ken Peacock, "Woman from Dover" (on NFKPeacock) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Johnny Sands" [Laws Q3] ALTERNATE TITLES: Eggs and Marrowbones Old Woman from Wexford Dover Notes: At one time witches were killed by drowning, and Flanders and Olney connect their fragmentary text (which mentions only the drowning and the husband pushing the wife in) with this phenomenon. Mark Twain quotes a fragment of this piece in Life on the Mississippi. The Catskills version has a peculiar ending in which the lady swims to the other shore and survives. Much as we would like this to be a feminist touch, it seems more likely that it was a lapse of memory. Sam Henry had a text in which the man eventually rescued her. Perhaps there was an onlooker around somewhere? A number of editors confuse "Johnny Sands" [Laws Q3] and "Marrowbones" [Laws Q2]. They obviously have thematic similarity, and probably have exchanged parts. But the "gimmick" is different in each case; there seems no doubt that they are now separate songs. - RBW File: LQ02 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2005 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 03 Jul 05 - 12:52 PM Thanks, but Zierke's site is where I copied it from. Not sure there is a connection between the song and drowning witches. It is pretty much what it appears to be. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM No connection at all, I'm sure; but the singer (or perhaps her aunt, from whom she had learned it eighty years previously, she said) had only one verse and the chorus and seems, not knowing the real story, to have put her own imaginative gloss on it. The title, The Drowning Lady (The Witch Song) presumably came from her. Flanders and Olney refer to a comment by Kittredge from his Witchcraft in Old and New England, but there's no particular reason to think that he was talking about this song. Johnny Sands seems to have been a mid 19th century re-write of the story for the music hall, and was widely printed on broadsides and in songsters of the period. It wasn't the only such remake; a song called Lawyer Brief; or, A New Way to get rid of a Scolding Wife, appeared in volume 2 of The Universal Songster (c.1826, p 334) but doesn't seem to have been taken up by the public in the way that the (likely, later) Johnny Sands was. I can't help on the Lloyd set, but there's always a chance that he told somebody something, and there are people who look in here who knew him. You might strike lucky, but it can be the devil's own job working out where he got things from. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:59 PM Very much like the Steeleye Span version of Marrowbones, also at Zierke's site. There doesn't seem to be any history of that title prior to the A. L. Lloyd song; I would guess that it is his. I have searched under several titles, but I haven't turned up anything at the Bodleian, although it must be older than the first mention in print (1874); however, that may not be the same song. I don't feel like searching "Life on the Mississippi" - anyone read it recently? (There is a 'searchable' version but it is riddled with pop-ups) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 03 Jul 05 - 02:20 PM I've got 'Life', I think. Lloyd can be maddening! BTW, did Martin Carthy get 'Marrowbones' from Harry Cox? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Jul 05 - 03:01 PM Not from Harry Cox, I think; his words were rather different. Though his tune is related to the one Steeleye Span used, it isn't that close. I've a vague idea that they used a set that Seamus Ennis recorded in Ireland in the 1950s, but I may be quite wrong. Here's something to try on Bert Lloyd's source. In a note appended to a set found by Cecil Sharp and Maud Kerpeles in Herefordshire (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, vol 8 no 4, 1959, 197-199, Lloyd mentions that "Herbert Hughes prints a version called 'Tigaree Torum Orum' in Irish Country Songs, Vol IV". I don't have a copy of that, but I think it was re-printed not so long ago. Lloyd did get material from Hughes occasionally, it seems. Have a look at it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 03 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM Ah, I've not heard Hary Cox's, you see. Did find the rest of Lloyd's note but alas nobody has bothered to put the words online yet. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 04 Jul 05 - 01:42 AM Neither have I if it comes to that (it isn't included on the excellent double cd from Topic), but I do have notation for Harry's tune (also printed in the Journal; ref above). "Bothered"? You can't expect everything to have been put online by some kindly soul with plenty of time and no need to work for a living; particularly when (as in this case) the example is still (just) in copyright. Sometimes it is still necessary to visit libraries, or even to buy books with money. Depends whether or not you can be bothered, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Peace Date: 04 Jul 05 - 01:56 AM http://www.ibiblio.org/keefer/e02.htm#Egganma |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 04 Jul 05 - 02:27 AM Malcolm, I don't want you getting the wrong impression when I said nobody had bothered. It was just a remark, not a complaint or critisicm of anyone. Didn't realize it was still in copyright. Trust me, if I lived anywhere near a decent library I'd be there practically every day. The internet is a poor substitute but it's what I've got to work with. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 04 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM I'm afraid it's one of those things that rather sets me off. I too wish that a lot more hard-to-find material was available via the web, and I find it frustrating that I haven't the time to do more in that direction myself. A lot of people seem to take it all for granted, not understanding the work involved (I've known folk complain bitterly that, for example, the whole of Bronson isn't out there for their use!) I'm glad that you're not one of those. One thing I have managed to do is compile a listing of books and related materials that are available. By definition it won't (I hope) ever be complete, but you'll find the pages at http://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.html. They might save you some time at some point. Do please let me know about broken links or useful things omitted. Returning to Tigery Orum, it seems that Irish Country Songs 4 is only available secondhand or as a print-on-demand job from Boosey & Hawkes, who presumably still hold copyright. I should think it's near its expiry date, though. It's on my list of things to pick up when the opportunity arises, but it's rather a long list. The first line as quoted in the Roud Index is "There was a wise old woman and her story I will tell", so Lloyd obviously didn't take the song directly from Hughes; on at least one other occasion, though (Reynardine) he does seem to have used material from Hughes and other sources, and put it about that the resulting collation had been found in tradition, by him, in England. Although it may have been, Stephen Winick argues convincingly that it wasn't (see A. L. Lloyd and Reynardine: authenticity and authorship in the afterlife of a British broadside ballad -beware the annoying advert) and this might be another case; then again, it mightn't. Always that problem when A L Lloyd enters the picture. A great man, but inclined to naughtiness. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Tigery Orum From: Le Scaramouche Date: 04 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM Thank you, that will come in handy as I'm trying to build up my library. I'm a slow typer, so I do appreciate peeople who have taken the effort to place stuff on the internet. Recently, I've become really fascinated by Lloyd. Especially when I found out about his fascination with Eastern Europe, something I share. |
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