BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations

Subject: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:20 PM

I suppose I might have titled this 'reasonable' and 'unreasonable' if there were room.

I have had this topic in mind for quite awhile, but something finally pushed me to start it.

What products do you consider to be fairly and reasonably priced? or not! I am NOT looking for just high prices or just for things which seem to be bargains, but rather for items whose everyday price appears to you to reflect manufacturing cost plus a reasonable markup.

I have long felt that items like shampoo and toothpaste and soap were pretty fairly priced, while items like breakfast cereal and candy bars have moved into the exhorbitant and ridiculous range. Even computers have become 'reasonable', even if you can't quite afford a new one every year.

But the item that hit me recently was razor blades....plain, ordinary single-edged razor blades that my wife uses for craft projects and I use in hand-held scrapers and cutters in my shop. In the CVS (big drug store/pharmacy chain) a pack of 10 blades was $4.99!!!! I know that they are not the big item they once were, but I do NOT believe that price is justified by marketing and manufacturing costs. Same with average size candy bars...and I will NOT spend a dollar to buy a pint bottle of WATER!

so...what nominations do you have for rip-offs and decent prices...whether large or small?

So

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:25 PM

Saline solution from the pharmacy. What a rip-off!

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:50 PM

I am old enough to remember jujubes at four for a penny. Now, they cost about 20 to 40 times that. Inflation at its ugliest.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

Condoms! I mean, like, how much difference is there between a condom and a kid's birthday party balloon? Not much. They're both made from basically the same stuff using more or less the same manufacturing process. So why are kids' balloons a buck for a bagful while condoms are a buck apiece?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:38 AM

Super size razor blades...as in Mach 3......$12 for 4 of them! And they never go on sale either.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:52 AM

yep...good choices. What else? Household products? Food? Clothes? I can get 'most' shoes a a decent price...but they're made in China, and the hidden costs may pop up some day.

Autos? Appliances?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST,Metchosin
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:58 AM

You too Bill D? I paid, with taxes, over $12 Canadian for a container of 10 ordinary razor blades, the other day. I couldn't believe it. I know it has been a long time since I've purchased them, but I'm sure that is way beyond accounting for inflation over the years. The damned thing was, I only needed one. Any takers on buying the surplus from me?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:05 AM

Not the price in particular, but here in Canada it really used to piss me off, especially because I had two daughters, that sanitary napkins and tampons were taxed. You paid an extra tax in this country because your offspring were born female instead of male.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:50 PM

Bill D & co., it's those stupid 'bubble packs' they sell things in that are where so many of the bad deals crop up.   You want to go to the hardware or paint store and buy a box of 100 blades. You get stuck with a lifetime supply, but it's for the price of a couple of little ripoff packs.

Similar to buying a few screws & bolts in a bubble pack instead of having the hardware guy count some out of a bin for you.

Baker's yeast is like $3 a pound in bulk and $22 and up if you buy it in those little envelopes.

Spices sold in little bottles by the major companies. Ridiculous compared to bulk.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:59 PM

Powdered milk. CAD$22 for about a kilo (enough to make up 6L wet)

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

Fresh pizza and Gibson mandolins. Both seem a tad overpriced for what you get. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

Bee-Dubya-Ell said:

Condoms! I mean, like, how much difference is there between a condom and a kid's birthday party balloon? Not much. They're both made from basically the same stuff using more or less the same manufacturing process. So why are kids' balloons a buck for a bagful while condoms are a buck apiece?

Hold on just a durn minute!

A lot of the joy in a party balloon is in popping it! And no economic or social consequences, that I can see, ride on how long it lasts.

Compare with a condom. If a user breaks a condom, does he go "Whee! That was good!"???   And of course the consequences can be severe. The strength (whether it's difference in quality or thickness I don't know) MUST be better!

And I think the shoplifting costs of condoms are much higher, and must be covered.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:25 PM

$3.39 for good bread. A couple of years ago I paid $1.69 for the same thing. A lot of breakfast cereal is $5.45. If one had a family, that would be a major part of the weekly budget. I find myself buying huge amounts of Malt-O-Meal brand bags that are much cheaper. Even that, however, has recently gone up from $3.99 to $4.98. Is this inflation (Inflation is allegedly low these days) or greed? I don't know.

Not the price, necessarily, but my uproar at the moment is the hard plastic wrap sealing product that ruins hands, finger nails and tempers. Yesterday with the eventual assistance of scissors and a screw driver I finally got open a pack of three fluorescent bulbs, along with its hardware (each in its separate tough compartment. Not only was it not possible to find a weak spot but the pack in addition had three rivets holding it together. By the time I got it open, the plastic was in pieces. If I should find it necessary to return the product to the store, there is no way for them to salvage the wrapper.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM

Ebbie - You are on to something.

In many cases, its not the price of the product itself, its the cost of the packaging that we are paying for. Its also a very high environmental cost.

As to pharmaceuticals (including condoms) the prices are based on consumer demand. Try using a balloon in place of a condom. Since the use of condoms is a health and safety issue, our governments should be supplying them for free. The same with saline solution which is used to combat the symptoms of a virus. Why not provide it for free? It really makes me mad when people profit from the misery of others.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM

Value = tilapia Overpriced = Orange Roughy

Value = Shenk Guitars Overpriced = Olsen Guitars

Value = CDs (even at $15, better at $13) Overpriced = big name, over-the-hill rock band concerts.

In the same vein...

Value = live concert with Pat Donohue, Harvey Reid, Joel Mabus, Pierce Pettis, Del McCoury, Laurie Lewis (who recently traded a couple of CDs for one of my pots!!), LJ Booth, Tim O'Brien, Darrell Scott, etc.   Overpriced = big name, over-the-hill rock band concerts.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:55 PM

Only £25 in UK for a dvd player. Wouldn't have the foggiest how to work one, but it seems a heck of a lot of technology for so little .

And baths, there you go, a whacking great lump of steel for a mere £200. Will last forever and is virtually indestructible.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM

Bill D, in the opening salvo to this thread said,

NOT looking for just high prices or just for things which seem to be bargains, but rather for items whose everyday price appears to you to reflect manufacturing cost plus a reasonable markup.

"Manufacturing cost plus a reasonable markup" can't be the test, Bill.

There's at least these levels,
1. actual manufacturing cost and other overhead
2. manufacturer's direct sales cost
3. manufacturer's profit
4. shipping cost manufacturer to distributor
4. distributor's warehousing costs and other overhead
5. distributor's direct sales costs
6. distributor's profit
7. shipping cost distributor to dealer
8. dealer's direct sales costs and other overhead
9. THEN markup for the dealer

And I'm aware that I've left out a number of steps, or items that may be separate or subsumed in one of the above. One that I can't fit into a logical place in this sort of listing is the cost of working capital, which applies to all three of the levels above. Then there's adverting costs.   All of these must be covered in the ultimate price.

Which of course still leaves us with your basic question about what products seem out of line with the whole panoply of costs.

But "manufacturing cost plus a reasonable markup" is a way too simplified way of looking at the problem.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:37 PM

A dozen worms! Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

What about potatoes- bought by the ton(ne) and sold by the pound? Here in Juneau we pay $.89 a pound for bakers. 'Down south', potatoes are frequently $1.29 for a bag.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:07 PM

Fortunately not everybody has to deal with this stuff, but there are some fairly big ticket items among medical and orthopedic equipment.

Wheelchairs, for example, seem to me to be grossly overpriced. You can buy a pretty darned flashy bicycle for well under $1,000, but if you need a wheelchair with some fairly simple options such as removable arm rests to facilitate transfers, or adjustable foot rests, you're looking at around $2,000 or more. And for the life of me, I can't see that there is that much difference between manufacturing a bicycle and a wheelchair:   some bent or welded tubing, a couple of wheels, a simple device for braking or locking the wheels, and someplace to plant your butt.

I've had two electric wheelchairs during the past fifteen years, both of which, fortunately, were paid for (mostly) by my health insurance company. The first was around $6,500 (more than I paid for my first car, which I bought new in 1968), and the second was close to $9,000.

Some years ago, a repairman from Care Medical came over to my apartment to do some repairs on the first electric wheelchair, and we got to talking about prices of orthopedic equipment. He asked me what I (my insurance company) had paid for the power chair, and I told him. He snorted. "When you consider that there is not that much difference between what goes into this power chair and a golf cart, and that you could buy a golf cart for about half what this cost, it makes you wonder. But when they price these things, it's not on the basis of what it cost to make. They figure, 'some insurance company is going to pay for it,' and they jack the prices up accordingly. Pricing on anything medical operates the same way."

And about every three years (depending on how much you use it) you have to have the batteries replace to avoid finding yourself in a "no go" situation in the local Safeway. If you get the batteries (two 12-volt deep cycle) from a medical equipment place, they run a couple hundred dollars, plus $60 for a house-call. I get mine from Budget Batteries for about fifty or sixty bucks a pair, and my brother-in-law installs them for me for a couple of beers.

One surprise, though. Until I was 19, I used standard wooden underarm crutches. Then I got a pair of aluminum forearm crutches (they called them "Canadian crutches" at the time). They were $25 a pair. A few years ago, I found out that they were running around $150 to $200 a pair. Two pieces of aluminum tubing, bent toward the upper end, with a couple of handgrips and metal cuffs attached. Simple device. I don't see what justified that big a price jump. But just now, I checked on a couple of orthopedic equipment sites and found that they can now be had for around $40 to $60 a pair. That's more like it.

Ever wonder why health insurance rates keep going up? Nah! I think everyone has a pretty good idea why.

Now, about those health insurance premiums. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Pasta. What is pasta? It's flour, egg, water. Why is there as much as £1.50 difference between varieties of pasta?

And then, flour.... 19p for 2lb bag or 89p for same weight? Only difference seems to be a prettier bag.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Bill-
Are you planning to drag Thomas Aquinas into this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:26 PM

Aquinas? ummmm...no, Dick...I wasn't....Why?

Uncle Dave...I do agree with you that there were a lot of unlisted costs in my question, but yeah, the question still arises over what products jack up the final list price.

I think in many cases it is a matter of 'what the traffic will bear' and 'captive audience'...that is, snacks at the ball game..etc..

But Don's example of wheelchairs and crutches really fit the pattern I was asking about. I am now remembering ads for wheelchair-like gadgets (motorized travel chairs) that are being HEAVILY advertised because insurance will often pay for them, and anyone who can get a Dr. to sign off on one can get a free one, even if they are just obese. (yes, I know it can be a real problem).

I suspect that things like video games are overpriced, also, but since I don't know about R&D costs, I'm not sure.

And about that pasta, LtS....there is a common trick of making a product 15% better, then charging a LOT more for it. I know that my favorite soft drink, Pepsi, is NOT worth 30-40% more than the Safeway house brand, even though it is 'slightly' better...so I buy Pepsi only when it is on a GOOD sale, and I try to get enough to last me to the next sale. I just bought 4 12-packs for $2.00 each, which is about as cheap as it gets anymore....but the Safeway brand is on sale for that price every couple weeks, it seems.

Ebbie...I have found a bread I like at Trader Joe's for about $2.50...has no preservatives or corn syrup, so Rita can eat it also....I'd guess that prices are higher in Alaska on stuff where major ingredients are not grown locally.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:25 PM

Bill-
As I recall, Aquinas had a lot of remarkably clear things to say about Fair Pricing. As a retailer, I can only say that items not in heavy demand are almost invariably less expensive than those that aren't. Notable exceptions are products sold to specialized groups, such as boaters and doctors. The mark-up on those is horrendous.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM

Bee-dubya-ell, I just don't know about your recommendation that we use toy balloons instead of condoms. Gives new meaning to that old song, "I Wish I Had a Pencil-Thin....."

Just the thought of it hurts.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:50 PM

Yeah, BWL, you have to pay extra to get a size that fits, man.

As for real value, my Dreadnought and I get together most every evening for a few minu8tes of sheer pleasure. I have gotten easily 5,000 hours of delight from it, which is less than a buck an hour, and now that itis amortized, it is practically no-cost entertainment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:52 PM

baloons come in all shapes and sizes. What one may wish to NOT think about is those clowns who stroll festivals and entertain by twisting and stretching balloons into all kinds of shapes and distortion.

...did I mention that they twist and stretch the balloons?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM

More or less relevant, maybe, possibly, I suppose (not to balloons, maybe, but to inflated prices).

I knew science fiction writer Jerry Pournelle before I found out he was interested in writing. We used to haunt Seattle's infamous Blue Moon Tavern and we spend many hours sitting there in a booth with various others, wetting our noses and saving the world. He left for California sometime in the middle Sixties, and a couple of years later, his novels started showing up on drugstore paperback racks. He got into computers early on, and in addition to writing SF, he wrote columns for various computer magazines. He often took in computer conventions to keep up on the latest poop and to gather material.

Before he and Larry Niven started collaborating and they hit it big (racking up $100,000 advances for books like The Mote in God's Eye, Footfall, and Lucifer's Hammer), most of Jerry's SF novels appeared in paperback with a cover price of around three to five bucks. He recounts that during this period, he had an interesting exchange with an unhappy computer programmer at one of the computer conventions. The programmer was whining and squawking about people who copy programs and give them to their friends (this was before they self-destructed if not registered within a brief period). Jerry was with him up to the point where he said, "I sometimes spend as much as a year and a half writing a program. I think I deserve getting a full $495.00 per copy."

At that point, Jerry jumped ship. He said, "Look, I sometimes spend that long writing a novel, and all I get per copy is a lousy ten percent of a $4.95 cover price--if I'm lucky! I find it a little hard to work up sympathy for your plight!"

I can't help thinking of that when I remember that we now have three computers:   our desktop, and both Barbara and I now have notebooks. We have some of the same software on all three computers, and we can't just buy one copy and load it on all three, we have to buy a separate copy for each one. That runs into a pile of money!

(mutter mutter)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:59 PM

Bill D, in Juneau we also don't have a Trader Vic's.

A friend of mine was getting out his money to pay for a haircut and commented on the cost. Smiling, he and she said together: It's the shipping.

On the other hand, I get to live here. That's worth quite a bit to me.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:42 PM

Dick...well, that is one aspect of Aquinas that I missed! (not that I read a lot of him anyway!)...but it seems to me you have over-generalized a bit about prices. Yyes, when we were younger, it WAS standard practice to offer better prices on rapidly selling items, but I have seen many examples of items going UP in price when they became popular and good sellers! You'd think they could lower prices if they are selling in volume, but to some retailers, it is a signal to apply the "what will the traffic bear" test. One example is Newcastle Brown Ale over here in the US....when they found out it was in demand, the price went up 25%! I really doubt the supply was threatened......same thing happens with popular clothing brands....and remember the Miata sports car? When everyone wanted one, the asking price shot WAY up....no relation to what it cost to produce and deliver.

One of the reasons I started this thread is that I see a different model of pricing than when I worked in grocery stores 45 years ago...then it was 'mostly' supply & demand plus perceived quality, now it is marketing ploys and artifical creation of demand based on computer models and demographic analyses.

It's almost impossible to PROVE something is a rip-off, but those razor blades, even in a blister pack, were ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM

Ladies dance shoes- 10-12 pounds.
Mens dance shoes-   30-35 pounds.

grrrr.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST,Skivee
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:01 PM

I was visiting some friends in Honolulu way back in 1986.
One friend had an apartment across the street from the university. This was in the Minoa valley, North-ish of Waikiki beach.
We decided to shop at the Safeway up the street. Locally grown lettuce, "Minoa lettuce" , was $3.50 per head! It was the size of a softball!...no kidding.
The whole Minoa vally isn't more than 10 miles, from Waikiki to rock wall. It couldn't have been the shipping.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: jpk
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:26 PM

uncle daveO one of the biggest things you left out was r&d if you only make 2 of something and spend 100 on design and tooling,then you have 50 in each plus all other costs.if you make 100 of same then r&d is only 1 each,or if after the first two go out 100 more are requested then r&d should be 0 because you made it back on first 2[to bad it seldom works that way]that is one reason prototypes or so expensive,you pay r&d up front[unfortually the manufacturer keeps adding it in on produciton runs in most cases even when it already been paid for]

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:32 PM

But you can claim R&D (research and development) back from your taxes in the UK.......

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:43 PM

Then there are certain stores, in certain settings, where I guess outrageous pricing is just to be expected; many a year ago, I bought a nice little carved figurine in Bagio, the Phillipines, for $4.50 U.S. A few weeks later I saw comparable pieces for sale at Waikiki at a 4000 (four thousand)percent markup.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM

You're right, I forgot R&D as a cost. I suppose I could fudge and call it part of manufacturing cost to make my post look good, but that's not right, because, as someone pointed out, it's tax-deductible to one degree or another.

That doesn't mean, though, that you get your R&D costs back by the tax decuctibility. You will only get back the percentage of it that corresponds to your top tax bracket percentage.

The same things can be said of the cost of physical manufacture.

In the meantime, of course, the whole R&D cost had to be financed much earlier, so there's interest on top of it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

then there are items that involve certain time & special skills, but STILL seem to be somewhat arbitrarily priced. I have a tooth that needs either extracted or a crown. My dentist says his part of it is about $300, based on his standard fees in order to run his office....but after making the mold and before installation, it goes to the specialists who create the new toothlet, and it seems they get about $800 for the little item. That makes a $1000 decision for me, at age 66, and with soft enamel anyway, to figger out whether I'm gonna get $1000 worth of good out of one tooth, or whether I'll need a whole set in a few years.

Now, I suspect that they could make a tooth for quite a bit less than $800, but work on an "I can make it and YOU can't" basis. I'm sure materials are not the issue, so it must be time and "expertise"....but all I would see is a tooth...and a VERY empty bank account. I know we have a dentist on Mudcat....I wonder if he is reading this. Any serious ideas on whether $800 is 'fair' for manufacturing one tooth?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Kaleea
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 02:54 AM

Whenever possible, I like to barter. I know folks who have begun or joined barter groups in their area. You can trade for credits if you have an organization, or you trade for goods &/or services directly. No taxes on bartered goods, eh? I especially love to find older folks who garden in their nearby small towns--less acid rain & often no chemicals!

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:34 AM

Live in Canada's north for a while.

Two liters of 2% milk--$8.25 (although the price drops to $6.50 when the winter roads are open)
Dozen egges, medium--$5.00
Loaf of sliced bread--$4.00
One medium-sized tomato or apple or orange or banana--$1.00

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:36 AM

Condoms are $189.65 each. But they are good for 200 uses if you wash them with warm water and mild soap.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:53 AM

Yo, BeezerDubyaEll...

Heck, quit using the condoms and use tham kids ballons.... Then you'll get a lot more bang fir yer buck...

Ahhhh, hmmmmm, everything being relative, water is both a good buy and a bad buy??? Ya' walk into a convience store and there in the coller is a 16 ounce bottle fir $1.29 an' right next to it is a one gallon jug of it fir like 99 cents??? Like what's this all about???

Actually, who ever thought folks would ever *buy* a 16 ounce bottle of water??? That's what I want to know...

As fir good buys, yeah, most techy stuff seem purdy cheap unless you by it when it first comes on the market... I have a son-in-law who does exactly that... Pays a couple grand fir a big TV and then his 2 brothers wait a couple months and get theirs fitr less than half that...

As fir lousy buys: breakfasr cereal has become a total rip-off, gasoline is beyond a total rip-off but it's total rip-off price has something to do with the secret oilmen Bush/Cheney *Energy Policy*, new cars are a rip, new CD's have always been a rip speakin' of which the other kind os CD's and in Certificate of Deposit are a rip, the price of lunch in most rersturants are rips (don't ven think about the dinner menu), the price of books are are rip though paper seems a bargain, like $3 fir a ream of copy paper...

Mudcat is a bargain, too, though it occasionally can hurt yer head... But ya' can't complain 'bout the price...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:33 AM

A glaring example:

Bargain: Inkjet Printers. You can get a very nice one for home use for $50 (US) and a powerhouse for $300 or so.

Ripoff: Inkjet cartridges. For best quality there is an advantage in using the printer manufacturer's cartridges (and paper), but with 2 to 7 cartridges in the set, at $30 to $80 per cartridge, good maybe for a couple of hundred pages per set, the ink becomes almost the entire cost of printing.

Packaging excess: HP packs two ink cartridges per package, total size of each cartridge about the same as a half-pack of cigarettes (for those who remember those). Each cartridge is in a hermeticly sealed plastic pouch, inside a small plastic coated cardboard box. At most retail outlets in my area, the pair of small cartridge boxes is in a larger heavy cardboard box, plastic coated, and then encased in a hard plastic "display pack" that's about 9" x 13" x 3.5" - made of plastic I can't cut with ordinary office scissors. I keep a pair of "Dutchmans" (compound lever aviation metal snips) at the desk just for opening ink packages. Each individual small cartridge box includes a "recycling envelope" and a large sheet of instructions urging you to "protect the environment by recycling your used cartridges." (And don't think about the 5 oz of non-biodegradable packaging it came in.)

Bargain: One of the local office supply chains gives me a free ream of paper for each used ink cartridge.

John

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

JohnInKansas,

The reason they give you the mailer, and the store gives the paper, is to make sure you do not refill the cartridge. That way, the cost becomes a few dollars each to you, and per page cost drops to maybe 10% of what you pay now.

Color laser printer- $499
cartridges ( 4 required) $100 or so each.

Good thing it comes with a set of cartridges!

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: jpk
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:54 PM

the one that drives me nuts, two cars for sale,one for 5999 and one for 6000 and almost invarible they will go to the one for 5999,even though the 6000 one is the better buy[one dollar diff,yet they think 5999 is so much less because of the sound,5 thou verse 6 thou,they don't stop and think hey only one dollar diff]don't understand peoples stupidity i guess[know one dealer that works that way to unload his junkers,puts them side by and guess what he says it almost never fails. have a great day and god bless

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Susan of DT
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:27 PM

(dick greenhaus here) Have you ever seen the charge for an aspirin tablet in a hospital?

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:41 PM

oh, SURE, Dick...but that is outside the scope of this exercise..*grin*...blatent "added charges" just because they can charge it to insurance is well-documented. I just want to know if the standard, over-the-counter price of asprin is fair.

...and the 99 phenomenon is another pet peeve of mine..I'm sure stuff is often raised to 99, rather than lowered from 34, but it is still not what I seek.

I really, really am curious what basic, everyday prices are inflated way beyond what would give the producer an honest, reasonable profit.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:43 PM

Bet NOBODY can see the charge for an aspirin in a hospital; I bet it's further out of sight than Dolly Parton's shoes...

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 12:06 AM

naawww..they have rules..it's gotta be listed in the bill...fat lot of good it does!

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 04:12 AM

Re the price of aspirin:

Generally the retail price is pretty reasonable. The "cost of manufacture" is a very tiny part of the retail price, but distribution, packaging, stocking, and inventory costs are not too far out of line. In the US, the "name brand" Bayer runs about 2x to 3x the price of generic brands, but is often worth the difference. The generics often degrade more rapidly, and the low price per pill often comes with the need to buy enormous quantities of some generics, most of which will be "vinegar pills" by the time people use the last half of the bottle. I will buy generics in quantities up to about 300 pills occasionally, but I can usually get the name brand in similar quantities if I watch for the occasional sale, for about 20% more per pill - and I have occasionally tossed 25% of a bottle of generics because they smell too bad by the time I get close to the end of the batch.

US hospital patients are entitled to itemized bills, that should show every pill they get. The "cost" shown is the "cost of dispensing" and runs $15 US to as much as $70 US per pill at different hospitals in my area. The $3.00 bottle of 100 aspirin, dispensed one at a time at the hospital could cost you from $1,500 to $7,000 - but you're not paying just for the aspirin, you're paying for getting it delivered.(?)

Re the ink cartridges:

There's no question that HP, and other printer mfrs, want you to recycle the cartridges rather than refilling them. They quite probably do refill and resell them as new. The office supply place that trades a ream of paper ($3.00) for each one turned in almost certainly sells the empties to aftermarket refillers - probably for pretty close to $3.00 each.

For the ultimate rip-off where you pay atrocious amounts and get little, one should really consider local and state governments; but I don't think that's within the intended scope of the original question. It's wholesale, not retail.

John

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM

Unfair - 24 1cm x 0.75 cm blocks of watercolours: £40.
Fair - 5 paintbrushes for watercolours: £4.99

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:52 AM

Bad value.........SPAM £1.35 a can, and it's crap at that.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:05 AM

SPAM is SPAM. If you wan't SPAM, it's not out of line with other similar "potted almost meat" products, but for most of us it's not a staple of life, so buying it at any price is a waste of money.

...Although I do have one friend who considers SPAM and Velveta with a scramble of powered eggs almost as good as a pork MRE.

John

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:17 AM

When is a diet pill worth $135.00 a botlle? When you've got a room full of amazingly gullible fat people!

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM

In the UK, Pharmacies are allowed to tell you when a commercially available product is available at a cheaper price than the prescription charge.... 'over the counter' remedies that have been prescribed by the doctor. That way, they get a sale and you get a better deal if you have to pay for prescriptions (£6.20 per item last time I needed anything).

Buying standard drugs in a supermarket rather than a drugstore makes a huge difference too..... a pack of 16 paracetamol capsules can be as little as 20p in a supermarket, but have up to £1 markup in pharmacies. The biggest difference I've seen is a markup of £1.25 on a pack of 32 aspirin.

What I object to most is the markup in the same chain of stores. I purchased a sandwich for £1.00 in one store, and an identical sandwich in another store for £1.20, the difference was basically a 5 minute walk across 2 busy streets. My office has a 'Sainsburys Local' store under it, and across 2 busy streets is a 'Sainsbury's Central' store....   For that extra few minutes walk, I can save 20% on my sandwich.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 12:11 PM

I recall a converstion I had with an instruument maker (though it coukd apply to any handcrafted product). I pointed out that a) I couldn't see how he could price it that low, considering the time that went into it, and b)I couldn't see any way that I could pay so much for it.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 12:43 PM

about John's note on hospital asprin including the "delivery cost"....I think that's what TV ads mean by "shipping and handling" shipping costs are standard, but they can charge anything they think they can get away with for handling.

(did you ever notice how 87.4237% of items in late night TV ads are $19.95 + S&H?) Who thinks that price is a mark DOWN?

indeed, Dick...there are a number of items I'd like to own that ARE fairly priced (handmade autoharp by Keith Young), but that I'll never be able to afford! (A Humvee maybe?)

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

Liz, your difference in price within a chain just might be explained this way:

You say one store is "Central" and one is "Local". I'd guess that the "Central" is owned and run by the actual company whose name it bears, but that the "Local" is a franchise operation. The franchisee pays the company for the use of the name, training, advertising, etc., and may be required to buy all or most products from the central company.   

I can see how it would be possible that with the franchise fees the franchise holder would have to charge more. Alternatively, such overhead items as rent for the premises (or depreciation, if the property is owned) may be higher for one store than another.

If there are signficant cost differences (for whatever reason), there MUST be a price difference, or you go out of business.

It might be interesting for you to ask if the Local store is a franchisee of the Central.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: jpk
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM

don't forget the so called conveince factor[way do you think we now suffer the con store selling gas instead of a service station,it might be handy but the markup for most non fuel items is crazy,gas price another issue].[price not real but gives idea]10$ for 20 asprin in pocket sized metal or plastic box or 2$ for large unhandy bottle of 200[even through you could break it down youself for pocket pack]   most stupidly lazy but flush pocket people go for 20 at 10.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: sixtieschick
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Tea in restaurants: Say whaaa? price for a tea bag and hot water?! And some places won't even give you a fresh bag for a second cup without charging for it.

M.

Subject: RE: BS: fair & UNfair prices- nominations
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:07 PM

now THAT is a pet peeve of mine! Finding a restaurant that will keep customers coming back with cheap tea & coffee is a rare, but wonderful thing!....

and in stores, coffee itself varies greatly...I buy beans and grind them myself, and the price can vary from $5.99lb in a discount chain to $12 or more in fancy shops. (I like Guatemala Antigua for everyday). They claim "fresher" or "specially selected" etc...but I'd LOVE to give them a triple blind taste test and dare them to pick their own from a group! Sometimes I see premium prices for some organically grown, hard-to-find type that supports a commune, and I don't begrudge them a markup, but not for coffee whose price changes depending on the box label it's shipped in.