Explosions in London

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:16 PM

Wolfgang - You started this drift by saying, " A simple three word sentence like 'I stand corrected' or 'I have erred' is often better than trying to defame the one posting in opposition to one of your points."

Guess what. You don't get to tell me what is better. You aren't my mother, my father or my teacher. This is commonly called unsolicited advice. Now that you have admitted that you were wrong, you still haven't given me any credit. Instead you say:

"Fine way of arguing, Dianavan, to make assumptions about the psychiatric diagnosis of someone you disagree with.
I prefer to discuss what has been said and not to make diagnoses of a personality."

I already said: "I let it go because I didn't want to argue about something I didn't think it was particularly important and I also know that if you bothered to contradict this minor point, it wasn't worth the effort to try to change your mind."

So give it a break, Wolfgang. Take a downer. If you continue to harp about minor details and constantly bicker about insignificant details, I will conclude that you are obsessive and compulsive. BTW - This is not a psychiatric diagnosis as I am not a psychiatrist. Its just common slang for someone who is a nitpicker.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM

I understand the price of beef is going up.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

CarolC: we seem to be discussing completely different things. Whether Miquelon is part of the continent of Europe, or Hawaii is part of north America, is one thing. Whether they are currently in some kind of political union with(or subjugation to) a country in some far away continent is a different question altogether.
I think (as McGrath has mentioned) you will find Tahit(or somewhere thereabouts) is also part of France. But I think you would be hard put to argue it is part of the continent of Europe, as it is in fact part of Polynesia in the Pacific Ocean.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM

Thanks for the correction, McGrath. I was wrong.

Fine way of arguing, Dianavan, to make assumptions about the psychiatric diagnosis of someone you disagree with.
I prefer to discuss what has been said and not to make diagnoses of a personality.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:24 AM

Ireland's Extremities

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 05:18 AM

Being part of the country doesn't mean it's part of the continent. After all embassies all over the world are considerd to be sovereign territory of the country concerned.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM

Hawaii is probably farther away from the rest of the US than Miquelon is from France, but it's no less a part of the US than the states that are on the mainland.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 02:53 AM

Miquelon is politically part of Europe, through a quirky bit of French colonial history. But it's obviously not geographically in Europe. In a similar way, Israel takes part in the Eurovision Song Contest. I suppose Israel, in this case, is culturally part of Europe, though clearly not a geographical part. Gets a bit absurd if you start including politics and culture...you might end up saying North America is part of Europe as well, which would be very confusing.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 02:30 AM

Can we please confine this to the European continent!

Oops, if we do that, then we are all wrong.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM

I thought of that - it's the nearest part of European Union Nirth America, that's true. But there are French overseas Terrotories a lot further west than that, over on the other side of North America. And there's talk of the Falklands having the same kind of status. So I don't think that being in the European Union necessarily means being in Europe.

After all there's a good chance that Turkey might become a member, and that's a good chunk of Asia.   And if Newfoundland a (lonmg) stones throw from Miquelin ever decided to regain its independence and apply for membership...

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:31 PM

The most westerly part of Europe is the island of Miquelon, just off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

I will never call Dingle the most westerly point of Europe ever again.

Now will you stop nitpicking over something that nobody is quite sure of?

I hardly think it calls for a confession or an apology.

What say, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

I have Iceland down as a sort of intermediate...like Greenland. or Tristan da Cunha, for that matter: which I could hardly call Africa or America.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:38 PM

But strictly speaking the westermost point of Europe would be in the Azores.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

And if you'd checked up with an atlas or a web site, Dianavan, you could very easily have nitpicked back at Wolfgang, because he was dead wrong on that. (And he'd have said "I stand corrected" or "I have erred").

But in fact you were both wrong, and so is Greg, because there is a sizeable European island called Iceland that's way to the west of all those places.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM

500

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:16 PM

Thread drift extraordinaire once again

Just to remind people this thread is about when many people died in a bombing incident.

God bless them

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM

PPs

we have a saying in Scotland, to the English and that is

WELCOME TO BRITIAN

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM

Ps.

I'm sorry if I have upset some people but please rembember that it not all London, there are other places that are just as important as London.

Anyway.

If I have upset anyone I'm sorry, but we have a saying in Scotland whay is it always London, everything has to go to London, why not Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham or Newcastle.

But that the London people for you, they think that the border between Scotland/Wales stops at the Watford Gap, and anything that is beyond that is just wilderness.

But let bygones be bygones

Tam

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

I don't remmber them being on all day about the bobmbings in Northern Ireland, or warrington, Brighton or Iraq, but because it happens in London that is different and that they are muslims or whatever, anyway it is sad that it happened isn't it.

As you say we could go on forever.

If it happens anywhere else as I say it is a quick there has been a bobming in Iraq or Warrington and now the weather, I mean how would you lot feel if they did that with London, I don't think you would be pleased would you.

Tam

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM

What about Rockall?

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:34 PM

I think he is Often Correct Dianavan too.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM

This thread drift was a result of Wolfgang being a nitpicker.

I once said something like the Dingle Penninsula or the Blasket Islands were the most westerly point of Europe. He says its the Faroe islands and that I was trying to defame him by not admitting that I was wrong, or something like that. Its no big thing to me its just that Wolfgang won't let it go. He thinks I owe him an apology.

I don't think I owe him an apology. I think he is OCD and maybe he should admit he is wrong and let it go.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:38 PM

Has someone been bombing the Blaskets? I'm getting a bit confused here.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

No, I'm saying that most of the island of Ireland is to the west of the westernmost part of the Faroe Islands. (And the Blaskets, of course, are to the west of the Irish mainland, but I'm a bit puzzled why they come into it...)

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM

So McGrath - Are you saying that the Blasket Islands (off the Dingle Penninsula) are the most westerly point?

Wolfgang - I let it go because I didn't want to argue about something I didn't think it was particularly important and I also know that if you bothered to contradict this minor point, it wasn't worth the effort to try to change your mind.

Maybe it depends on whether you consider Ireland to be part of Europe.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:04 AM

The Faroes lie west of Ireland? No they don't. West of England and west of Wales, and west of almost all of the Scottish mainland; and most people - leaving out the ones who think they're in the South Atlantic - would be pretty surprised at that.

But most of Ireland is in fact to the west of the Faroes.
......................

As this post demonstrates, I agree with Wolfgang on the value of precision in matters of fact. And on quite a lot of other aspects relating to the way arguments are best conducted.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:22 AM

weelittledrummer,

I should have thought of the other meaning of 'RAF'.

RAF: Red Army Faction (in their language)
Baader-Meinhof group in the liberal newspapers
Baader-Meinhof gang in the conservative press

This RAF did bomb Germany in the two decades, the other RAF didn't, not in these two decades I mean.

Wolfgang - You are such a nitpicker you drive me crazy! (Dianavan)

If one tries to see patterns, one of the good tests is to find exceptions, for one mostly can learn more from exceptions than from corroborations of a rule. My mind is trained this way. I've always found counterexamples to something I had thought was true an enrichment and never thought of them as nitpicking.

Dianavan, you could try to take corrections with more composure. Do you still remember your excessive emotional reaction when I told you that the Faroes lie West of Ireland? A simple three word sentence like 'I stand corrected' or 'I have erred' is often better than trying to defame the one posting in opposition to one of your points.

I'm not a wholist. I never mean the whole person or even the whole argumentation in one thread if I oppose one particular point.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:49 PM

Thank you for the clarity McGrath. I don't agree with your last statement, but I'm not going to argue the point.

As far as the latest bomb attempt goes, it appears that the good guys got lucky as there were no deaths, and a lot of evidence has been obtained.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 08:29 PM

In think you misunderstood what I was saying robomatic. My fault.

I didn't state the difference because I didn't think it needed to be stated. So I will now. As I see it setting out to kill non-combatants, such as civilians on a train, or families in their homes, is always murder and always indefensible, whoever does it. Setting out to kill enemy soldiers who would kill you if they had the chance is at least arguably justifiable.

That is the distinction that matters. How the killing mechanisms are delivered is, so far as ethics are concerned, not in itself that important. A bomb is a bomb.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,more terror attacks
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM

More terror attacks. Police are looking for a muslim in a local hospital

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: DavidHannam
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM

Yes very moving pictures.

Yes a disgusting post i think from the tir eoghin.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM

Thanks for the Silence pictures McGrath.
I think that one of our regular contributors will have been celebrating while we were grieving.
He only contributes to Irish political threads, no interest in music, and hates all members of the English race.
He wrote this a few weeks ago.

GUEST,Tír Eoghain BS: British Army reward murderer. (139* d) RE: BS: British Army reward murderer. 29 Apr 05

---------------------------------------------------------------

Al Q is on its way, Yorkie.
One door closes, another door closes, eh?

Good luck on your National Security thing.
We'll be alright however, Jack!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:18 AM

I read they were working in a pig slaughter house to escape detection.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:04 AM

wld I had read that they shaved off their beards to avoid being possibly recognised as moslems.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 05:53 AM

any interested parties...

the body hair shaving was reported by The Times - sorry I didn't keep the article

Wolfgang, did the RAF bomb Germany in 1970's/80's?

wouldn't surprise me....they tell us nothing!

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM

McGrath: Without being more specific, you have just agreed with me without agreeing with me. You first say that there is a difference, but you then go on to restate what you have already said, so I conclude that you say there is a difference, but choose not to delineate that difference. thus creating a distinction without a difference.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:38 PM

There is a difference between killing military opponents and killing random civilians, robomatic.

But when you're engaged in killing random civilians to make a political point, how the bomb is delivered is not all that significant to the reality of what is being done. And the truth is, that is what has been done in our name.

And that isn't to say that the people who blew up those bombs in London weren't engaged in an act of cruel and vicious murder, because they were. And the fact that they aren't the only ones in no way changes that.
.................................
That link I gave to the London bombing pictures on flickr - they are best seen as a slideshow, which you can do by pushing "View as slideshow" on the flickr screen. Seeing those shots of Londoners standing in the three minutes silence, taken by a whole bunch of strangers, adds up to a very powerful experience. I urge people to take a couple of minutes out from squabbling to share it.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM

I think the conversation while mostly okay, is somewhat hampered because folks are discussing it at different levels. At the level of death unleashed on unsuspecting civilians, there is a sad commonality to all the victims, wherever they are. However, if you're going to start equating all victims of all wars, you are taking a moral equivalency view, much as one might make of it from outer space. This is not wrong of itself, but it is wrong to make everything equal and then come back into the game arguing in favor of one side.

If you're going to take the viewpoint from outer space, then you should stay in outer space.

If you're going to argue that people, who strap on explosives and go onto a civilian conveyence in order to wreak havoc on fellow civilians, are no different from military opponents in battle; you are involved in the morality of warfare and judgements can and are being made as to the values of either side and the springs of belief that flow into these actions. But it's correct to call attention to the distinctions being ignored to make that argument.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:48 PM

"Guest - Do you feel anything..." On balance, probably not. But in any case it's a good policy to ignore that kind of self-absorbed phantom.
...............

Here is a link to pictures of London in the wake of the bombs, on flickr.

A bit more relevant.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

dianavan you should also show some respect for the dead, and dont use this thread for your political rant platform

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

This thread isn't just about poor people meeting their death. Its about the explosions in London. That begs the question why.

Guest - Do you feel anything for the Iraqis who have died as a result of U.S. aggression? The people of London and the people of London are the same to me. I don't know any of them but I still think its tragic.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM

Actually, GUEST, I have mostly been trying to avoid fights. Why don't you talk to the ones who keep trying to drag me into fights? They are the ones who are sullying this thread.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM

Why CarolC must you continue to fight on this thread which is about poor people meeting there death, please show some respect for the dead.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM

goodbye carol. I have a job to go to.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:54 AM

Carry on, without martin you seem to find any outlet you can.

...and here I thought you were trying to take his place.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:52 AM

There's a time and a place for obsessive rantings,but you wouldn't understand that. Carry on, without martin you seem to find any outlet you can.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM

Yes, actually, I did think it was ok. I thought that the perspectives about the relationship of the US to the rest of the world that were given by people from other countries in those threads was quite valuable for us here in the US to read.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:44 AM

Well if you thought that was ok it explains why you are doing it here.

Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:43 AM

It happened in the threads about 9/11, GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 11:41 AM.