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Explosions in London

GUEST,KingBrilliant 07 Jul 05 - 05:45 AM
Kaleea 07 Jul 05 - 05:51 AM
George Papavgeris 07 Jul 05 - 05:53 AM
Flash Company 07 Jul 05 - 05:57 AM
GUEST,KB 07 Jul 05 - 05:59 AM
sapper82 07 Jul 05 - 06:03 AM
George Papavgeris 07 Jul 05 - 06:06 AM
alanabit 07 Jul 05 - 06:09 AM
Mary in Kentucky 07 Jul 05 - 06:10 AM
George Papavgeris 07 Jul 05 - 06:15 AM
Mary in Kentucky 07 Jul 05 - 06:16 AM
Zany Mouse 07 Jul 05 - 06:17 AM
George Papavgeris 07 Jul 05 - 06:19 AM
Mary in Kentucky 07 Jul 05 - 06:24 AM
mooman 07 Jul 05 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Mr Happy 07 Jul 05 - 06:30 AM
GUEST,catsphiddle@work 07 Jul 05 - 06:34 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 06:35 AM
Zany Mouse 07 Jul 05 - 06:36 AM
freda underhill 07 Jul 05 - 06:37 AM
pixieofdoom 07 Jul 05 - 06:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 05 - 06:43 AM
MBSLynne 07 Jul 05 - 06:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 05 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,catsphiddle@work 07 Jul 05 - 06:46 AM
My guru always said 07 Jul 05 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Mr Happy 07 Jul 05 - 06:57 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 06:58 AM
Moses 07 Jul 05 - 07:08 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 07:10 AM
AlexB 07 Jul 05 - 07:16 AM
MBSLynne 07 Jul 05 - 07:17 AM
Mary in Kentucky 07 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM
Herga Kitty 07 Jul 05 - 07:24 AM
AggieD 07 Jul 05 - 07:26 AM
Fiona 07 Jul 05 - 07:29 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 07:32 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 07 Jul 05 - 07:34 AM
MBSLynne 07 Jul 05 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,jOhn 07 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 07 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM
Wolfgang 07 Jul 05 - 07:49 AM
alison 07 Jul 05 - 07:57 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 07:58 AM
wysiwyg 07 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Ghettoblaster 07 Jul 05 - 08:04 AM
Pushkin 07 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 08:07 AM
AlexB 07 Jul 05 - 08:08 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 08:09 AM
wysiwyg 07 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 08:21 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 08:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 05 - 08:28 AM
pixieofdoom 07 Jul 05 - 08:33 AM
Alice 07 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM
Donuel 07 Jul 05 - 08:41 AM
Fibula Mattock 07 Jul 05 - 08:48 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 08:51 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 08:53 AM
Rapparee 07 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM
Wuzzle 07 Jul 05 - 08:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 05 - 09:01 AM
freda underhill 07 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM
Azizi 07 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,MMario 07 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Weary Traveller 07 Jul 05 - 09:10 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 09:16 AM
AlexB 07 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM
Herga Kitty 07 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Audrey 07 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 09:18 AM
Essex Girl 07 Jul 05 - 09:18 AM
AggieD 07 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,KingBrilliant 07 Jul 05 - 09:45 AM
Wolfgang 07 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Bainbo 07 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM
Catherine Jayne 07 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 10:03 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM
Big Mick 07 Jul 05 - 10:05 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 10:05 AM
AlexB 07 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM
Dave Bryant 07 Jul 05 - 10:08 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 10:08 AM
katlaughing 07 Jul 05 - 10:09 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM
the lemonade lady 07 Jul 05 - 10:13 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 07 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM
manitas_at_work 07 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM
Sandra in Sydney 07 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM
PoohBear 07 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM
Lanfranc 07 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM
Bunnahabhain 07 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM
Sorcha 07 Jul 05 - 10:46 AM
Ebbie 07 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 10:56 AM
catspaw49 07 Jul 05 - 10:57 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 11:01 AM
AlexB 07 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Mr Happy 07 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM
Skipper Jack 07 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM
AlexB 07 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 11:09 AM
Dave Bryant 07 Jul 05 - 11:14 AM
John Hardly 07 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM
CarolC 07 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM
black walnut 07 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 11:21 AM
Wolfgang 07 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Laurent at work 07 Jul 05 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Chanteyranger 07 Jul 05 - 12:03 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM
Bassic 07 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM
Ellenpoly 07 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM
Janie 07 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM
TheBigPinkLad 07 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM
pixieofdoom 07 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Jul 05 - 12:35 PM
dianavan 07 Jul 05 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 12:39 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 12:43 PM
Ellenpoly 07 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM
Leadfingers 07 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM
Sarah the flute 07 Jul 05 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,padgett 07 Jul 05 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Maggie, Edinburgh 07 Jul 05 - 01:14 PM
Firecat 07 Jul 05 - 01:15 PM
dianavan 07 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM
Long Firm Freddie 07 Jul 05 - 01:43 PM
JedMarum 07 Jul 05 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 07 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM
Phot 07 Jul 05 - 02:24 PM
harpgirl 07 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM
Tinker 07 Jul 05 - 02:55 PM
The Curator 07 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Philippa 07 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM
Shanghaiceltic 07 Jul 05 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson 07 Jul 05 - 03:26 PM
Maryrrf 07 Jul 05 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,TIA 07 Jul 05 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,padgett 07 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM
lady penelope 07 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 05 - 03:39 PM
George Papavgeris 07 Jul 05 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Piatkow 07 Jul 05 - 04:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM
Mrs.Duck 07 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM
The Barden of England 07 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson 07 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM
The Barden of England 07 Jul 05 - 04:49 PM
Highlandman 07 Jul 05 - 04:51 PM
The Barden of England 07 Jul 05 - 05:13 PM
The Curator 07 Jul 05 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Canadian 07 Jul 05 - 05:16 PM
Wesley S 07 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,ragdall 07 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Canadian 07 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Steve De Orc 07 Jul 05 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,jaze 07 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM
Den 07 Jul 05 - 06:06 PM
Liz the Squeak 07 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM
Joybell 07 Jul 05 - 06:50 PM
Col K 07 Jul 05 - 07:10 PM
Bat Goddess 07 Jul 05 - 07:24 PM
Alba 07 Jul 05 - 07:33 PM
Shanghaiceltic 07 Jul 05 - 07:36 PM
YorkshireYankee 07 Jul 05 - 07:43 PM
Bill D 07 Jul 05 - 07:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM
jacqui.c 07 Jul 05 - 08:11 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 05 - 08:27 PM
robomatic 07 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM
greg stephens 08 Jul 05 - 01:29 AM
MBSLynne 08 Jul 05 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Jane Crosby 08 Jul 05 - 02:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 05 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 08 Jul 05 - 03:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jul 05 - 03:43 AM
Liz the Squeak 08 Jul 05 - 03:49 AM
Dave Bryant 08 Jul 05 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM
Sarah the flute 08 Jul 05 - 04:46 AM
GUEST 08 Jul 05 - 05:04 AM
MBSLynne 08 Jul 05 - 05:37 AM
MBSLynne 08 Jul 05 - 05:38 AM
Sttaw Legend 08 Jul 05 - 05:43 AM
MBSLynne 08 Jul 05 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Mr Happy 08 Jul 05 - 05:55 AM
Paul Burke 08 Jul 05 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Mr Happy 08 Jul 05 - 06:21 AM
MBSLynne 08 Jul 05 - 07:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 05 - 07:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 05 - 07:16 AM
Tracey Dragonsfriend 08 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM
Ella who is Sooze 08 Jul 05 - 07:42 AM
manitas_at_work 08 Jul 05 - 08:35 AM
Doktor Doktor 08 Jul 05 - 08:44 AM
Doktor Doktor 08 Jul 05 - 08:58 AM
Dave Bryant 08 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM
Flash Company 08 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM
Naemanson 08 Jul 05 - 10:17 AM
manitas_at_work 08 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM
Ellenpoly 08 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM
Dave Bryant 08 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM
Dave Bryant 08 Jul 05 - 11:21 AM
ard mhacha 08 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM
jacqui.c 08 Jul 05 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Peg 08 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Memory of martin Gibson 08 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM
AlexB 08 Jul 05 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Jul 05 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 05 - 03:19 PM
AlexB 08 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Anti Nazi league 08 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM
Wolfgang 08 Jul 05 - 03:54 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jul 05 - 04:00 PM
AlexB 08 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,The Truthful memory of Martin Gibson 08 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Canadian 08 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,leeneia 08 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM
AlexB 08 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Jul 05 - 04:46 PM
Lizzie Cornish 08 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,TF/NY 08 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM
Liz the Squeak 08 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM
Alba 08 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM
CarolC 08 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Mohammed Mac Donald 08 Jul 05 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Truthful Memory of Martin Gibson 08 Jul 05 - 05:58 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM
Liz the Squeak 08 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM
CarolC 08 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 08 Jul 05 - 06:27 PM
jacqui.c 08 Jul 05 - 06:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM
robomatic 08 Jul 05 - 07:57 PM
dianavan 08 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,ObL Award 08 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jul 05 - 09:31 PM
dianavan 08 Jul 05 - 09:35 PM
GUEST 08 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM
CarolC 08 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM
dianavan 08 Jul 05 - 10:07 PM
LadyJean 09 Jul 05 - 12:32 AM
freda underhill 09 Jul 05 - 12:48 AM
GUEST, JB 09 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM
sapper82 09 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 09 Jul 05 - 04:50 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 09 Jul 05 - 04:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jul 05 - 05:07 AM
Liz the Squeak 09 Jul 05 - 05:09 AM
My guru always said 09 Jul 05 - 06:35 AM
Tam the man 09 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM
jacqui.c 09 Jul 05 - 08:20 AM
GUEST 09 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM
Ron Davies 09 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM
freda underhill 09 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 09 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM
Irish sergeant 09 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM
kendall 09 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM
GUEST 09 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Mohammed Mac Donald 09 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM
Megan L 09 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 05 - 03:39 PM
heric 09 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Interested 09 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM
dianavan 09 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM
robomatic 09 Jul 05 - 05:48 PM
CarolC 09 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM
jacqui.c 09 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM
artbrooks 09 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM
GUEST 09 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jul 05 - 10:39 PM
Naemanson 10 Jul 05 - 12:59 AM
Pauline L 10 Jul 05 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,David Hannam 10 Jul 05 - 05:34 AM
GUEST 10 Jul 05 - 05:36 AM
George Papavgeris 10 Jul 05 - 05:39 AM
Tam the man 10 Jul 05 - 06:58 AM
George Papavgeris 10 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM
Tam the man 10 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM
George Papavgeris 10 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM
jacqui.c 10 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM
Stephen L. Rich 10 Jul 05 - 06:33 PM
NormanD 10 Jul 05 - 06:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jul 05 - 06:52 PM
CarolC 10 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM
CarolC 10 Jul 05 - 07:21 PM
Liz the Squeak 11 Jul 05 - 03:34 AM
Liz the Squeak 11 Jul 05 - 04:09 AM
Roger the Skiffler 11 Jul 05 - 09:26 AM
manitas_at_work 11 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM
Liz the Squeak 11 Jul 05 - 10:45 AM
CarolC 11 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM
Donuel 11 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM
Alba 11 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM
dianavan 11 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM
jacqui.c 11 Jul 05 - 02:50 PM
Bunnahabhain 11 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM
Donuel 11 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM
robomatic 11 Jul 05 - 09:34 PM
beardedbruce 12 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Jon 12 Jul 05 - 12:26 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 05 - 12:41 PM
Donuel 12 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 05 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM
Tam the man 12 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,interested 12 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM
jacqui.c 12 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM
CarolC 12 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,interested 12 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 12 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM
dianavan 12 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 12 Jul 05 - 03:43 PM
greg stephens 12 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM
CarolC 12 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM
Bill D 12 Jul 05 - 05:28 PM
jacqui.c 12 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM
robomatic 12 Jul 05 - 05:55 PM
CarolC 12 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Jul 05 - 06:12 PM
GUEST 12 Jul 05 - 06:21 PM
Roger the Skiffler 13 Jul 05 - 03:33 AM
greg stephens 13 Jul 05 - 03:46 AM
Roger the Skiffler 13 Jul 05 - 03:56 AM
manitas_at_work 13 Jul 05 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,David Hannam 13 Jul 05 - 01:52 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jul 05 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM
akenaton 13 Jul 05 - 02:07 PM
CarolC 13 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,123 what are they fighting for? 13 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM
robomatic 13 Jul 05 - 06:08 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,123 13 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 06:26 PM
akenaton 13 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 13 Jul 05 - 06:35 PM
CarolC 13 Jul 05 - 06:49 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM
artbrooks 13 Jul 05 - 06:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jul 05 - 07:03 PM
artbrooks 13 Jul 05 - 07:13 PM
Alba 13 Jul 05 - 07:13 PM
robomatic 13 Jul 05 - 07:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jul 05 - 07:30 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 05 - 07:36 PM
bobad 13 Jul 05 - 08:04 PM
artbrooks 13 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM
George Papavgeris 13 Jul 05 - 08:51 PM
Alba 13 Jul 05 - 09:10 PM
dianavan 13 Jul 05 - 10:19 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 05 - 04:25 AM
sapper82 14 Jul 05 - 05:31 AM
George Papavgeris 14 Jul 05 - 07:12 AM
jacqui.c 14 Jul 05 - 08:19 AM
GUEST 14 Jul 05 - 08:24 AM
artbrooks 14 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,catsphiddle@work 14 Jul 05 - 08:48 AM
Wolfgang 14 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM
GUEST 14 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM
heric 14 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM
akenaton 14 Jul 05 - 08:20 PM
YorkshireYankee 14 Jul 05 - 09:28 PM
dianavan 14 Jul 05 - 10:09 PM
sapper82 15 Jul 05 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser but Born Londone 16 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 05 - 05:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jul 05 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Chris B 17 Jul 05 - 06:59 AM
Leadfingers 17 Jul 05 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Chris B 17 Jul 05 - 07:55 AM
artbrooks 17 Jul 05 - 08:39 AM
dianavan 17 Jul 05 - 09:15 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jul 05 - 10:01 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM
Wolfgang 18 Jul 05 - 12:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 01:30 PM
George Papavgeris 18 Jul 05 - 01:45 PM
George Papavgeris 18 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 02:25 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 04:27 PM
Shakey 18 Jul 05 - 04:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 04:57 PM
dianavan 18 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM
Shakey 18 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM
Shakey 18 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 18 Jul 05 - 06:26 PM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM
GUEST 18 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 18 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 06:46 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 06:53 PM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,Steve 18 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 18 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 06:59 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:00 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 05 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,David Hannam 18 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 05 - 07:03 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 05 - 07:07 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 07:25 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:27 PM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 05 - 07:29 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:32 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:36 PM
beardedbruce 18 Jul 05 - 07:40 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:40 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 07:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM
CarolC 18 Jul 05 - 08:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 05 - 08:40 PM
Wolfgang 19 Jul 05 - 11:22 AM
dianavan 19 Jul 05 - 11:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jul 05 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,Fed Up 20 Jul 05 - 09:25 AM
CarolC 20 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM
CarolC 20 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 11:41 AM
CarolC 20 Jul 05 - 11:43 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 11:44 AM
CarolC 20 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 11:52 AM
CarolC 20 Jul 05 - 11:54 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM
CarolC 20 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM
dianavan 20 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jul 05 - 05:48 PM
robomatic 20 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jul 05 - 06:38 PM
robomatic 20 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 21 Jul 05 - 05:53 AM
GUEST 21 Jul 05 - 07:04 AM
GUEST 21 Jul 05 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Jack 21 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM
DavidHannam 21 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,more terror attacks 21 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jul 05 - 08:29 PM
robomatic 21 Jul 05 - 09:49 PM
Wolfgang 25 Jul 05 - 08:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 05 - 09:04 AM
dianavan 25 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM
greg stephens 25 Jul 05 - 01:38 PM
dianavan 25 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 05 - 02:34 PM
greg stephens 25 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM
Tam the man 25 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM
Tam the man 25 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM
Tam the man 25 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 05 - 04:16 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 05 - 05:38 PM
greg stephens 25 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM
dianavan 25 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM
CarolC 25 Jul 05 - 06:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM
dianavan 26 Jul 05 - 02:30 AM
greg stephens 26 Jul 05 - 02:53 AM
CarolC 26 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jul 05 - 05:18 AM
GUEST 26 Jul 05 - 06:24 AM
Wolfgang 26 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM
greg stephens 26 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM
Sttaw Legend 26 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM
dianavan 26 Jul 05 - 11:16 PM
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Subject: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:45 AM

Am reading reports of multiple explosions on London Underground + London buses. Very scarey. Hope all our Londoners are alright.
(BBC news site has reports)
blasts
    Related thread here (click) has been closed to avoid splitting the discussion.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:51 AM

Our prayers are with you, your family and friends. I am praying for you all now. We care about you and send to you all the love we can muster. Please take care & let us know if there is anything we can do for you.
    Peace must prevail. Only love can conquer hate. You are loved.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:53 AM

OK here. Just angry


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Flash Company
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:57 AM

Seems a bit confusing at the moment, London Underground is calling it a 'power surge', Union of Transport Workers is calling it a bomb.
If the story of a bus approaching Russell Square blowing up is true, it aint no power surge. Glad I'm a long way from London at the moment.

FC


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:59 AM

Eyewitness reports from BBC news here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4659243.stm


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:03 AM

BBC websites down but R4 11:00 news is bad


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:06 AM

It's several explosions on the underground, and at least one bus explosion (one fatality confirmed so far there)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:09 AM

The simultaneous explosions in buses and tube stations suggests this was planned. It is horrible news. I will be hoping casualties are kept to a minimum, as will everyone else here.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:10 AM

CNN reports six explosions.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:15 AM

Excellent response from emergency services so far, the relevant action plans have kicked in. The recent practice runs are paying off.

A number of eye witnesses have reported seeing bodies under sheets on the pavements... I suspect the casualty list to be of some size. But no official confirmation yet.

Clearly terrorist activity, the coincidence makes it hard to imagine anything else. The National Grid already refuted the initial claims of power surges on the underground.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:16 AM

At least three bus explosions, several tube explosions at various stations, according to CNN.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:17 AM

From News 24 at 11.15 am. News at the moment is that there are two bus explosions and 4 tube explosions. Oddly, there is also talk (unconfirmed) of a train crash at Kings Cross. There are fatalities from the bus but no number yet.

Power surge has been excluded now - it was ruled out when the first bus exploded at Tavistock Square.

I think every London commuter knew this would happen one day.

I hope all London Catters are OK.

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:19 AM

There may well be more bombs on buses. The MAdrid model is of backpacks being left on buses and later detonated remotely using mobile phones. As a result, the police has shut down the mobile phone network in several London areas, to prevent any further detonations in case the same model is being used here.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:24 AM

News still fluid...2 bus explosions, 6 tube explosions...Tony Blair to speak at noon London time.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: mooman
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:27 AM

It unfortunately looks very serious from the patchwork of reports I am getting. My sincere thoughts to all London 'Catters and to all that may be caught up in this.

I was due to be travelling back from London to Brussels this morning but my trip was cancelled earlier this week and I would have been using underground and train.

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:30 AM

20 victims killed so far


Lots more info here:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,catsphiddle@work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:34 AM

They are confirmed bomb explosions and at least 20 dead so far. We get rid of the IRA threat adn it is replaced by something else. All OK here but we are 5 miles out. Got friends in the City and they are ok but are on red alert and don't know how they are getting home. Have checked in with Liz the Sqeak...her and paul are ok too.

Will give updates as we get them


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:35 AM

Arab monitors reporting Al Quaida as responsible.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:36 AM

Breaking news is that Al Quaida (is that the correct spellng?) are claiming responsibility.

News source: BBS News 24 at 11.32

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:37 AM

This is awful - my thoughts are with you all, what a horrific, evil violation of such a beautiful city.

freda


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: pixieofdoom
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:40 AM

Glad you guys are ok Khatt, tried to call you but phone systems are down. Phot is somewhere in central London too, can't get hold of him for the same reason so all a bit nervous here


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:43 AM

There's no point in picking up on rumours and passing them on. The actual facts of what's happened hasn't happened will be available soon enough.

Just watching the TV coverage, from which it looks as if the response by the emergency servicesm, and people in general seems pretty level-headed. There was an American tourist who was in the street when the first bus bomb went off, and she was favourably impressed by the fact that the police clearing the street didn't feel it necessary to shout. That's how it should be, panic and flap is a killer in these situations.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:44 AM

Will all London Mudcatters please check in so we know you are all ok??

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:45 AM

And at least the Mudcat isn't down...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,catsphiddle@work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:46 AM

Pixie, let us know the Phot is OK when you here. The mobile networks are down in central London at the moment..including all our work mobiles.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: My guru always said
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:51 AM

Just caught this, dreadful! Thoughts and Prayers for all involved!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:57 AM

Channel 5 live news UK just said they'd been told by Met Police number of dead so far is 2.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:58 AM

I'm Ok so far. I'm not sure how I'll get home _ I knew I should have started cycling!! - but I suspect the buses will be running again by this afternoon. We have just had a rumour of a bomb in nearby Houndsditch but I didn't hear anything even though I can hear the news helicopters overhead. It's a little bit unnerving as I look out over the site of the Baltic Exchange bombing which is now a glass tower known as the Gherkin. The management have ordered in sandwiches so the staff don't have to go out of the office and have moved a meeting to an office away from the Gherkin. Mind you, they haven't moved staff away from the windows yet!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Moses
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:08 AM

I'm 15 miles outside of London working in a school. A party of our students were due to travel into town by tube this morning but fortunately were to set off after the time that these dreadful events occurred so they are not caught up in it.

I've seen coverage by the BBC of one of the buses with the top blown off.

Those poor people going about their daily business, work, shopping or sightseeing had no chance.

Life is fragile

Peace

Christine


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:10 AM

Most East London Catters are accounted for. We're anxious for news about Phot but suspect being the person he is, he'll be busy helping if he can.

There's a picture of a bus on TV at the moment.. it used to be a double decker.

News reporter has just put into one sentence. "These people are just cowards, they leave these things and walk away"

Thank you for your kind thoughts and prayers....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:16 AM

It is on all the terrestrial channels.

I have a friend I think is supposed to be in London today. Hope he is okay.

My thoughts go out to everyone in the capital.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:17 AM

We have to remember that the vast majority of people in London ARE ok...it's only a minority who have been involved in any way

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM

All our news stations are carrying this. Although only 2 confirmed dead and 90 confirmed casualties, most predict much higher counts, early reports talking of horrific injuries, loss of limbs, etc. Still conflicting reports of how many explosions. Seems to indicate 7 stations and up to three buses.

Blair just spoke, will return to London in a few hours, then back to Scotland to resume G8 conference. Said all members at conference commiserated (forgot what word he use...sympathized, empathized) with the British people. But our determination to defeat barbaric acts is stronger than their determination to harm innocents. (paraphrased)

Our love to you. I'm signing off now so folks can use this forum for communication. The mobile and land lines around London are clogged, and I suspect the BBC website will be overrun soon.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:24 AM

I was on a train at Neasden when the whole tube system was closed down. It took me an hour and a half to get back to Harrow by bus, and find out how lucky I'd been!

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AggieD
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:26 AM

My deapest sympathy to those involved, hope Phot is OK.

Oh the terrible cowardice of these terrorists, poor innocents always suffer for the warped few.

I know the fear that will stay with the people who have to go to work around these areas every day, I commuted to the City every day during the IRA terrorist days.

Angela


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Fiona
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:29 AM

Mr Blair has just confirmed live on the BBC that it's a terrorist attack.

There's a tube train stuck at Kings X and a rescue operation going on.

Londoners are being asked not to travel, the whole of the underground has been closed and buses in central London have been suspended.

I've just seen a fleet of ambulances from Berkshire going by. There doesn't seem to be much panic, local residents and businesses are rallying round, giving folk hot drinks and looking after those who are just shocked. Walking wounded are being ferried to hospital in buses, saving the trained staff and ambulances for those in greater need. More buses are being used to treat minor injuries at the scene.

Mobiles are still off in some areas and landlines are being affected in some areas too, so don't worry too much if you can't get through.

As Lynne says most of the city is fine just horrified at the news.

Fiona


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:32 AM

Sadly, these people do not always walk away as there is the possibility of suicide bombings.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:34 AM

Terrible news, but good to hear from those of you in London who have checked in. My love and prayers go out to all of you.

Allison


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:36 AM

Well I hope they go straight to Hell.....


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM

BBC saying 20 dead and around 100 injured.
my thoughts are with those concerned, hope all our London freinds are ok.

john


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM

CNN and Fox are covering this atrocity to the exclusion of other news. They have high praise for the efficiency of the emergency services.

With no official casualty reports, it is hard to judge the actual damage. Like most terrorist attacks, this was done as much for spectacle, confusion, and psychological damage as anything else. In worse times, a former prime minister said, "London can take it."

As a New Yorker, my sincere condolences go to all the victims and their families.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM

No mainline train services into Kings Cross, Liverpool St, Euston and St Pancras, they are all being stopped miles before London (probably on the M25 boundary) but they hope to have them working again later to get people out of London.

There are no Underground trains or buses in Central London. Glad to hear some of our west Londoners are OK.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:49 AM

My heartfelt sympathies to all those involved or hit.

These attacks rather mirror Madrid than New York. One has to be thankful for this though this is hardly a solace for those who have lost relations or friends or are injured.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: alison
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:57 AM

more thoughts & prayers from Oz...... glad to hear that many of you are OK and looking forward to hearing from the others

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:58 AM

Yes, the timing and style of this suggests it was hastily arranged to put a damper on the Olympic celebrations.

And yes, London can take it but can individuals?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM

Londoners are no strangers to fortitude and pulling together-- I know there will be abundant courage and effective response. Hardi and I add our prayers and concern to the admiration we have for our British cousins.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Ghettoblaster
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:04 AM

Sympathy for the innocent affected.

Tony, George, we told you so.

This also seems to confirm that those responsible are confident that they do not need to worry about identity cards, which the politicians will now ram down our throats, so evidently the really organised terrorist has a plan to get round the security of such cards.

Can we point out to those responsible that (even in the city of London and the heart of capitalism where the UK's shock troops of economic imperialism work) it was not the people of London who made war on Islam - but certain of their leaders? If your religion demands an eye for an eye, you might at least make it the correct eye.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Pushkin
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

At the moment the Square Mile is on official terrorist alert. We are presently stuck in our office and not allowed to leave the building. I imagine this is the case with most offices in the city.

Rumours are that Waterloo and Cannon Street rail stations have closed but I think this is probably just as a security measure to check things out before the rush for us to try and get home!

Pushkin


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:07 AM

London can take it but can individuals? Not really, if you're watching the news. Individuals are in shock - *I'M* in shock... I've just realised that if I'd gone to work today as planned, I would have been on that train between Aldgate East and Liverpool Street... a Hammersmith and City line train that travels under Aldgate and the City of London.

We're a lot less resiliant than the citizens were 60 years ago... hell, I know people who will not leave their house if they can't find their mobile phone!

"The Secret organisation of Al Qaeda of Jihad" has just claimed responsibility, on a website.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:08 AM

But was it them? Could just be wanting to take the credit... or am I just warped to think that?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:09 AM

Pushkin - it's no rumour, check my posting of 7.45am Cat time, straight from the BBC. ALL mainline trains are being stopped well outside of London.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM

Liz, I didn't mean that "London can take it." I just meant that we here in the US are the new kids on the block as far as terror attacks are concerned-- thinking of all you've been through in the wars, etc.--

I'm sorry if that's not what came through.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:21 AM

That's kind Wys, but the war was 60 years ago... 20 years before I was born. Most Londoners now don't fit into the age range that remembers 'make do and mend', or nightly trips to the air raid shelter. Most of them in the City probably don't even remember Vietnam, the IRA or the Falklands Islands conflict. Most Londoners don't even know the name of their next door neighbour.

We have an infrastructure that has a history of coping well, that had far too much experience in dealing with emergencies on a large scale, and this has once again, swung into action in a superlative manner. But it's made up of individual people, just as everyone at Ground Zero in New York were individuals. History, location, experience - nothing matters but those individuals and their actions.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:25 AM

We knew what you meant Susan but it's just a stupid remark from some politician. History is littered with examples of cities destroyed or sacked and 'all' the inhabitants enslaved or put to the sword. Over and over again! And guess what - a few years later those cities had recovered enough to be a tempting target for another (or even the same) conquering army - London is just another in that line.

This attack will have got people more rattled than one big blast would have. They will be sitting on the train or bus tonight (if they can get one) worrying if they are sitting on another bomb. But its nothing that people in Jerusalem or Baghdad don't do every day. And in the end more people will have been killed or injured just trying to cross the road.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:28 AM

Both my sons travelled in to Central London this morning.
I knew that the odds were massively on their side, but still relieved when finally able to make contact.
Not everyone's sons and daughters were so lucky.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: pixieofdoom
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:33 AM

Just heard from Phot, he's fine.......phew. My thoughts are with all those not so lucky


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alice
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM

My sympathy and support to all of you there.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:41 AM

Sympathy and courage to all involved.

The beat goes on.
The tube will be shut down all day today and travel is difficult.

Pres. Bush spoke about a disregard for liberty. He has made quite an improvement in behavior since 9-11. At the very first whisper in his ear about explosions in London he immediately left the room.

I saw a movie 2 weeks ago about dirty bombs going off in the financial district of London. In contrast to those dramatized events, today seems eerily surreal.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:48 AM

Crikey, glad to hear people are alright. I was in London last night and just made the last coach home because I had a meeting today, otherwise I'd have been wandering around Zone 1 this morning doing touristy things. Thinking of you all.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:51 AM

I know how you feel Keith, I have friends in London, one of whom works on the Underground, another of whom has his 84 yr old mother with him....

One of my work colleagues was unaccounted for as of 1.30pm though.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:53 AM

Phew.... so glad he's OK Pixie.....

Take care.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

What can I do, besides send good vibes and psychic support?

This stinks (he said, in understatement).


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wuzzle
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:55 AM

Love and Prayers, to all involved,

Gilly


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:01 AM

Thanks Liz.
Text messages are sometimes getting through.
Hope you hear soon.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM

relieved and glad to hear about Phot, Pixie.

x freda


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM

I'm also sending my prayers to all Londoners.

and I'm so glad Mudcat is up during this emergency.

With some cell phones and land lines down, discussion forums such as this may be the only way that folks can use to find out what's happening about whether their loved ones are okay.

What the world needs now is Positive Vibrations & Peace.

Azizi


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

Sad news - but glad that mudcatters in the area are pretty well "networked" so we get news even with the disruption of services.
Thoughts with you all of course - and the families of the victims.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Weary Traveller
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:10 AM

the timing does seem connected with the announcement of the successful bid to hold the 2012 Olympics in London --- but with so much organisation involved would the perpetrators have called the attacks off or even postponed them if Paris had been selected for the Olympics rather than London?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:16 AM

Some grim, cynical humour... if it had happened yesterday or Tuesday, we wouldn't have been lumbered with the Olympics!

It's more likely to coincide with the G8 summit, aimed at the Capital because Gleneagles is stiff with police and security measures, and is a lot LOT harder to infiltrate. Terrorists don't want to assassinate leaders, they want to cause terror.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM

Weary Traveller: it is more likely to have been planned to coincide with the G8 summit. But I thought that too.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM

But the G8 summit would still be on, even if London hadn't got the Olympics!

Glad to hear that Phot's OK. Only 3 weeks until I get to the Middle Bar (AQ permitting) .....

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Audrey
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM

I hope you are all OK, especially thinking of Manitas & Liz who I know to be commuters to the worst affected areas.

Good Luck
Audrey


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:18 AM

Audrey, we're fine..... Manitas is stuck in his office but I'm at home.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Essex Girl
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:18 AM

Well, I'm still at work in the city. Just popped out for lunch and it's very quiet. No buses, very little traffic at all. We have been told that there are trains leaving from London Bridge but I'll have to wait till I get there. Luckily I don't have to travel by tube. We've spent most of the morning on the internet or watching the news and it's quite scary at times. Dave wasn't feeling too hot this morning so he didn't go to work. Good job as he'd never have got there anyway!!. Hope everyone gets home safely.
Linda


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AggieD
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM

IMHO the G8 summit probably has far more to do with the explosions than the Olympics. Just glad that the leaders have decided to carry on & not let the terrorists distract them, although I'm still sceptical on what they will actually achieve.

Very pleased that Phot has made contact, just keep praying for the others who haven't yet made contact.

Angela


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:45 AM

After being told to stay put - there are now reports of buildings being evacuated (tho of course they could be utter rumour).
On BBC website someone reports a friend texting that they have been told to evacuate the building and get out of London. On Japanese TV they are reporting a Japanese near russel square just having been told to evacuate the building.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

Rejoice, community of Muslims,
the Mujaheddin heroes have attacked London today...We've kept our promises and have carried out a heavenly blessed military operation
(Ao Qaeda in Europe)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

Official police advice is to remain where you are and do not travel. Do not call emergency services unless it is life threatening. Do not come into London. Monitor radio and TV for futher reports.

Confirmed 4 explosions, 12 dead.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM

No one's ever heard of this Al Qaeda in Europe before, and we've no guarantee this statement is genuine, or is intended to do anything other than inflame the situation even more.

Obviously, Al Qaeda are the most obvious suspects, but until we've some confirmation, I'd take statements like this with a pinch of salt.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM

The sky news website is reporting 45 dead and 1000 injured. I don't know how acurate this is but what ever the figure it is too high.

Im stuck at work. We've been told to stay put for the time being even though we aren't in the city. The pictures on the internet are unbelievable.

My thoughts are with the people and their families in the city.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:03 AM

Sounds like the Sky news is coming from a US correspondent, I got the same figure just now from the BBC who stressed it is NOT confirmed and is just an estimate.

8-10 dead at Edgware road. 2 dead at Aldgate. They cannot give numbers until they have got to the people in the trains... there are rescue operations still going on.

So far only one politician has done a useful thing... Frank Dobson said, live on the BBC, that 'visits from politicians like myself are just a bloody nuisance!"

'Transport for London' are hoping to resume bus travel later today but people are asked not to travel into central London.

The Al Qaeda group claiming responsibility have not been heard of before.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

We've been told we can leave now as some mainline stations are open.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

Ananova attributes a figure of 40 dead to a US law enforcement officer who heard it from his counterparts over here, and doesn't want to be named because its not official yet.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:05 AM

Please keep reporting in. One of the pluses (?) about the Mudcat is that a human face is on these things. I find myself sitting here worried sick over my many UK buddies. Let us know you are OK, please?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:05 AM

BBC website still says 2 dead.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM

I still hear 2 dead too, but waiting for confirmation from hospitals.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM

They hope all mainline stations, except Kings Cross will re open for rush hour. Tubes and buses still out indefinitely. They say no warning was given.

The attacks have targeted working class people and school kids. That's who use the transport system that time of the day. How brave?

It was always going to happen and now it has. We are back to the days of the IRA threats, when you couldn't stand easy on a platform.
The peace didn't last long did it. Sad but inevitable.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:08 AM

I'm at home at Mottingham, so I'm well out of any danger. At the moment only a couple of fatalities seem to have been mentioned and it's been suggested that one of these might have been a suicide bomber on the bus at Tavistock Square. Obviously there are likely to be further deaths among the seriously injured, but compared with the Madrid bombings, London seems to have come off very lightly indeed.

The number of Tube bombs seems to only have been four, but as two of the trains were between stations, rescue efforts were made from both directions thus fuelling reports of six incidents.

The emergency services seem to have responded well and the planning and rehearsing for such an event seems to have paid off.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:08 AM

Hope all catters are safe....thoughts and prayers to all in the capital....
xxx


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:09 AM

Very, very relieved to hear from so many London Mudcatters and to know you are all okay. Thanks for checking in and on each other.

Lots of love and good thoughts, with sympathy, to all involved and their families and friends.

Cynical me says G8 has a lot more to do with this, in more ways than one. I do not trust them anymore than those they call terrorists. I hope I am wrong.

May Peace Prevail,

kat


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM

An emergency number has just been announced

0870 156 6344

Ring this if you are still looking for information on missing people.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:13 AM

So it's an 0870 number. That means that BT and Who? will profit from the calls! I hope they donate it all to the injured familes.

Sal


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

My wife and I sat and watched the news coverage this morning, and while the attacks weren't a great surprise, they are extremely disturbing. I think that most of us knew this was likely to happen. If someone can be convinced that they are going to die in Glory for their God by strapping explosives to their body and blowing themselves up, there is really no protection against that.

Our hearts and prayers go out to all those who have been struck by this...those who have been injured, and those whose hearts have been wounded by such random violence.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

At least one of the tube train bombs was detonated as another train was passing it in the opposite direction... this is what has caused the tunnel blockages and the additional reports. Seems they were set to or were detonated when the trains were in the tunnels rather than at stations where access would have been easier and disruption probably less.

All bus services are still suspended in central London (I'm reading this off the television screen, tuned to BBC) and Tony Blair has arrived in Downing St.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

They've changed their minds, it was probably a Central or Circle line train at Liverpool Street.

33 fatalities confirmed.

No warnings were given and no claims have been recieved by the police.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM

I've just heard that Liverpool Street station (presumably the mainline station) is reopening at 4pm. I'm going to see if a can catch a bus or DLR.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM

Someone mentioned it at JennyO's folk club tonight but we had almost no info.

It's 12.31am Friday here & I'm listening to BBC world service, reception is up & down, but I'll try the bbc links next.

best wishes to all affected

sandra


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: PoohBear
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM

WTF?????
I guess I just don't understand the mind set that says killing innocent people and disrupting everything is the way to solve differences of opinion and beliefs.
I'm very relieved to hear from our London 'catters that they are alright. . . well, at least not physically injured.
My best supportive, positive thoughts and prayers to all concerned.
PB


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Lanfranc
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM

Fortunately I'm at home in Harlow, but I've spent most of the past couple of hours receiving calls and emails chaecking whether I was OK and passing on info via SMS to friends who can't access the internet. My London office is about 200 metres from Aldgate, and, if my colleague there hadn't decided to get to work early for no particular reason, on his normal schedule he'd have been in or near Aldgate at the crucial time.

Transport for London's website hasn't been updated since 14:25, and most people seem most concerned as to how they are going to get home, about which there is little firm information.

Alan


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM

This was aimed at derailing the G8 meeting. We will see how well it works tomorrow, but it will be more effective than the marches and riots in Scotland.

james


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:46 AM

Oh shit.......keep checking in, Londoners....


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM

Here they're saying 40 dead and more than 360 injured. My thoughts and my heart are with you.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:56 AM

All coach services in and out of London have been suspended and there are no London Transport buses in central London opperating; many major roads are closed, including Euston Road; Terminal 3 at Heathrow was evacuated but is now open again.

33 confirmed dead at Kings Cross, Liverpool Street and Edgware Road stations, unconfirmed number dead in the Woburn Place bus bomb.

No Virgin trains , Thameslink suspended all services, Heathrow Express running from Paddington, West Anglia & Gt Northern trains terminating at Finsbury park. C2C not stoping at West Ham but otherwise operating.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:57 AM

Old friends (and new) I am glad to see such good reports after this attaack. I have read along this morning hoping not to see any bad news. Best thoughts from here to all of you.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:01 AM

Most mainline stations are open but Kings Cross still closed.

I know I'm posting a lot here but the BBC website seems to be very dodgy at the moment, overloaded - and many phone lines are clogged.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM

BT broadband has reached its capacity with people accessing the BBC site.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM

Here they're saying 40 fatalities:


http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8870


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM

Train and coach services to the capital have been suspended and airports put on alert. We all send our deepest concern and sympathy to all caught up in this horrendous attack. After the great news of London's success in procuring the Olympic Games in 2012, this has to happen! What is the motive for planning this cowardly attack on innocent people at this particular time? Is it the fact that World leaders are assembled here for the G8 Summit?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

My friend's husband works for London Underground and was phoned at home last night, telling him to bring his passport into work, was told it was a 'routine security check'. He was asked to show it when he reported for work at 7am and was then allowed onto the network. If anyone else knows someone who works for them, were they also asked to do this today?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM

Police say they haven't received any admissions to who is behind the attack, despite all the talk of the Al Qaeda site and others.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:09 AM

They think the bus bomb could have been a suicide bomber carrying it to the tube station, but it went off early.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:14 AM

The earlier number of fatalities mentioned were from the hospitals, but it's unlikely that any of those pronounced dead at the spot would have been taken to hospital. The latest breakdown for the underground bombs seems to be 21 at Kings Cross / Russell Square, 7 at Liverpool Street /Alddgate, and 5 at Edgeware Road. There have still been no figures given for the bus in Tavistock Square. This makes it a much more serious incident than I implied in my previous posting


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

My best hopes and wishes to all over there.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

My son is somewhere in Europe (possibly London) but I have no way of finding out where, and whether or not he is ok.

My deepest sympathies to all who have been effected in any way.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: black walnut
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

From Canada - Lisa and I send a huge hug to all of the Londoners we met and stayed with last July. It is good to be able to read your postings here.
Love b.w.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:21 AM

Thank you on behalf of all of us in London.   This has affected all of us in some way or another, whether we've been sitting at home or waiting it out in an office in the City or standing helplessly watching.

Thank you all.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM

Attack on London is inevitable (Guardian, March 17, 2004)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:38 AM

Leadfingers is OK and wasn't in London.

Manitas has made it home (nearly).

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Laurent at work
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 11:39 AM

My deepest sympathies to all the victims, dead or wounded, and treir families, except to the bastards who brought the bombs.

Laurent


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:03 PM

Thank you london mudcatters for checking in here and letting us know you're ok. We're with you.

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Just to add my name to the list.
Was already at work. Just as well as The Circle line is my normal tube line. and am often on it at 0950.
Staying over here at work as I've got another 0430 start tomorrow.
Good to here from regulars.

Ralph Jordan


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bassic
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Spoke to Rock Chick, her and family all ok.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

Right now the BBC is saying 33 dead from the trains, plus an unknown number from the buses. And the grim thing is, I found myself thinking that means we got off relatively lightly, in times like these.

It's a shock, but not a surprise really. And we've been here before.

My son works up in London, and commutes through Liverpool Street, but he's OK, and has a lift home. Earlier this week he went to see War of the Worlds, which he found quite alarming - still, at least the people doing this don't have Martian technology.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

I missed my first train this morning and by the time I got to the Tube station it was closed. Instead of hopping a bus I went home to see what was happening and am very glad I did. If not, I'd be down in London and stuck there for who know's how long.

This was bound to happen, and it's a miracle that the fatalities seem to be as low as they are. Lots of casualities, but still-considering how many blasts and where they were, it could have been much much worse.

..xx..e


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Janie
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM

Hugs to all you London 'Catters. Glad everyone so far has checked in OK. Prayers and tears for all the people and families affected---and for all the world.

Janie


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM

Just heard my nephew and niece are OK.

Very best wishes to London.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: pixieofdoom
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM

Everyone getting off every train at Aldershot station this afternoon was asked for ID as well as their full name, place and date of birth etc. We also had to say where we'd come from and whether we had anything at all we'd like to report to the police eeven if we'd been nowhere near London


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:35 PM

Glad to hear from Mudcatters in London that they are ok. My thoughts are with you today.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:36 PM

I am sorry that so many innocent civilians have died or been injured.

I doubt if the Olympics or the G8 had anything to do with it. British troops have killed many civilians in the mid-east. Thats enough of a reason for a terrorist attack in London. I am not condoning it, I am only looking for a reason, "why?"


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:39 PM

G8 ensured security was heightened elsewhere other than London.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:43 PM

"British troops have killed many civilians in the mid-east."

dianavan fuck off this is not the right time or place


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

Dianavan,

I think the timing says a great deal about "why". G8 is an incredible occasion to make a statement, and it makes far more sense that the people behind this were saying that they're still around, still able to bring a city to its knees, and for the leaders of the world not to think this is over.

My friend darkly wondered if there were some very disappointed Parisians behind this, but he was only joking.

This is going to turn out to be Al Qaeda, or another group with much the same agenda.

-E


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

I was going to mention the catters who were in Chat this afternoon , but they've all called in any way ! I was in Bromley this morning and just got wet and had a lousy drive home ! A lot better off than some !!
Thanks for your good wishes from Oz and USA and Europe !


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:01 PM

I'm just VERY grateful they didn't do this yesterday when I went into that area for a meeting all day. I very rarely go to central London My other half has been stuck in his office all day and was released about an hour ago and is planning to walk to Streatham where I'll pick him up.

Very worrying here at school cos quite a lot of parents work in town and there's been no way of making contact - phone lines jammed, no mobile access and internet very dodgy. Hopefully all will be well. We are just waiting now to see if any parents don't show.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:04 PM

100 ambulances treated 300 injured,

33 confirmed dead at 1758 Thursday Uk time

45 serouisly or critically injured, approx 4 devices went off

Blair statement on TV following Meeting with emergency committee

underground and bus services hit severely

Thanks to Emergency services, seeking purpetratory

Londeners stoic attitude praised


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Maggie, Edinburgh
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:14 PM

There has been a hugely increased police presence in Scotland for the last few days - lots of police from England, probably including some from the London Met. So these attacks are probably only indirectly due to G8 - I guess smart terrorists wait until police eyes and strength are focussed elsewhere. While some Very Important People get maximum protection, some very ordinary people (but every one of them somebody's child/sibling/friend) are soft targets.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Firecat
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:15 PM

Latest update from the BBC (18.10pm BST):-

37 now confirmed dead, with 2 more found at Edgware Road, and 2 from the bus.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

Anonymous Guest - If you want to chastise me, at least have the courage to name yourself.

Ellenpoly - You a probably right. With all of the attention focussed on protecting the big guys, what better time to terrorize civilians Unfortunately, it diverts attention from the problems of climate change and starvation. In fact, it would seem to validate a focus on terrorism.

Still trying to find some logic in all of this madness.

I am so sorry for the fear that must be gripping London today. I think that all the G8 nations should be on high alert.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:43 PM

Just got home. I work about half a mile from Tavistock Place where the bus was blown up.

Very scarey.

Very comforting to see messages of support from Catters all over the globe.

LFF


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:56 PM

I have watched the news today, as this story unfolds - with deepest sympathies to the people of London, with rage against the acts of those who will kill anyone who does not believe what they do - and with a prayer for the healing. My condolences to the familes of those killed - and my best wishes for speedy and complete recovery to those injured.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

Tragic. Absolutely tragic.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Phot
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:24 PM

I got into London at nine this morning to do some stuff at MOD main building, and wondered why everyone was clustered around one of the TV's, I only found out on the train back down to Portsmouth at 11, it was a bit weird being on a ten coach train, with only 12 other travellers. We got as far as Fratton, (5 miles from Portsmouth) only to be told that there was a bomb scare at Portsmouth harbour station, and the area had been evacuated! Finally got to the dockyard an hour later. Most of the buses in Portsmouth had been taken off the road too.

Home all safe now though. Thanks for all your thoughts, but mine are with those who were hurt, or worse, by todays senseless acts of cowardace.

Chris


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

This is awful and I hope our British catters are all okay. I haven't read the entire thread. I'm going to go home and hide under the covers tonight. Too much reality for me today....
peace, harpy


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tinker
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 02:55 PM

Despite reading here. Hearing Micca's voice was a great relief today. Thanks and soothing headed across the ocean to you all.

tinker


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: The Curator
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM

I condemn the loss of civilan lives, 37 dead is tragic. I know it doesn't help, but we so easily could have been looking at a toll running into hundreds. my thoughts are with you all in condemnation.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM

I also think it likely that the timing was connected with the G8 conference when security efforts had been diverted to Scotland
(opportunistic - not necessarily about G8, rather diverts our attention from important issues about distribution of wealth and about environmental protection)

The lastest news I heard said at least 38 have died, 100s are injured, some severly, and people who were due to have medical operations had to make way for the emergency cases.

An attack on transport services of a major city could kill and maim people of any nationality, creed and class.

(not particularly original perceptions)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:25 PM

This is just awful. I am glad that people from the Cat in London are all OK, and my sympathy and condolences to the families of those caught up in this attack.

It would seem that once again these terrorists were well entrenched in London, well funded and well organised, plus they must have had local support which is what is very frightening.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:26 PM

Thank all of your Islamic facist pals for this one.

Hey British Liberal Wankers!

How tolerant are you of Arab terrorists now?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:28 PM

I just want to add my voice to those who are expressing outrage about the attacks, and say that I'm happy that all (I hope)of the London area 'catters are accounted for.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:33 PM

Condolences to all affected. What can we do to help?
(non-rhetorical question)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM

Put your name to this (above) stop inciting religious hatred, this is helping no one.

Such atrocities have been carried out by others erroneosly believing it is/was/god's will

Fanatics exist in all religions and the honest are killed tragically

please let us get on with what we have to do in our democratic society


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: lady penelope
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM

Hi all.

Just checking in. I was already at work when the bombs went off. We were in lock down from about 11am and our phones and internet connections became jammed. I work at St.Thomas' hospital and it wasn't until about 4.30pm that we were 'stood down' from alert. I was beginning to think I wasn't going to get to go home......

Given where and when the explosions happened, I'm stunned the fatalities weren't higher. The general atmosphere of people not only around the hospital but also on the way home was amazingly calm. No one argued or whined when they had to walk another half a mile to get to the next point of transport, no one pushed or shoved. Everyone seemed to be looking out for one another. I can't get over how quiet it seemed to be.

Thanks to all for your kind thoughts, I too can only express my sympathy towards those who have been directly affected by this horror. My heart goes out to those who will never be able to look at public transport the same way again.

Lady P.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:39 PM

Some people let off bombs, some people write posts full of hate and contempt. like that one a couple back.Hatred expresses itself in various ways, but at the root it's the same kind of mentality.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:44 PM

I am angry - but I must not lash out regardless.
My revenge will be served cold.
But it will be served to those who are truly to blame and not to innocents.
I will not be diverted.
The terrorists' action will have the opposite effect from that intended.
Keep calm.
And remember.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Piatkow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:15 PM

I skimmed over a post referring to London being gripped by fear. Having spent 3 hours getting home in a journey involving a train, 3 different buses and hitchiking I picked up a lot of the mood of people around me. In answer to that post - Bollocks!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

A key aim of people carrying out terrorist atrocities is to provoke the enemy into carrying out disproportionate and counter-productive reprisals, whidch will ideally be seen as atrocities in themselves. And the other side of that is the way that atrocities will always be represented by those responsible as justified reprisals.

That is so obvious it should hardly need stating - but time after time, in conflict after conflict, that is precisely what happens.

I thought Ken Livingstone was very effective and impressive in his public remarks about the bombings (More especially since he must have been pretty hung over from celebrating the Olympics decision the previous night!):

"This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful; it is not aimed at presidents or prime ministers.

"It was aimed at ordinary working class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christians, Hindu and Jew, young and old, indiscriminate attempt at slaughter irrespective of any considerations, of age, of class, of religion, whatever, that isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith, it's just indiscriminate attempt at mass murder.

"And we know what the objective is, they seek to divide London. They seek to turn Londoners against each other and Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack."


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

So glad there isn't worse news from 'catters. I checked in with khatt and Micca and my brother as soon as I heard this morning. Apparently my new sister in law was coordinating the red cross so well done Trish.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: The Barden of England
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

I'm happy that none of 'ours' came to harm - but - and this is a big but, which I hope you don't all feel offended by - our brothers and our sisters of whatever race, religion or creed, are suffering this very same fate on a daily basis. In Israel, in Iraq, in Zimbabwe and almost wherever you care to name, are suffering the same fate at the hands of Terrorists. I feel that the media coverage of the outrage in London will only serve to fuel the hatred, when our media give scant coverage to the atrocities that are happening on a daily basis elsewhere.

I apologise once again to you all, but I felt something needed saying at this awful time.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

England brought this on itself with it's tolerance of Islamo-facist groups who have infiltrated their country in the name of tolerance.

Now the price is being paid for unchecked tolerance!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

Fuck off Guest.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: The Barden of England
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:49 PM

GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson - PM

Then why should we tolerate you?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Highlandman
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 04:51 PM

What kind of person does it take to show up at a funeral and scold the mourners? Now is not the time to say "I told you so." There will always be those who point to atrocities such as this as proof of their (often contradictory) opinions, but we don't have to listen to them at this time and in this place.

As for me, I would just like to add my prayers, condolences, encouragement, thanksgiving for those who were spared harm, and other good vibes to the flow here.

Peace
Highlandman in South Carolina, USA


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: The Barden of England
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:13 PM

By the way GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson, it's obvious you don't know shit from bus tickets - the country is the UK and not England, so get the amoeba you have for a brain into gear before you start spouting crap!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: The Curator
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:15 PM

Memory of Martin Gibson, have you ever been to a bomb site, just after it happened ? I am not known for holding the most reasoned viewpoint by some, but really it's not the time to be laying into people about the stance their government takes. Lay off for a day or two, show respect. There is sadness in homes tonight that your heart could never imagine, kids going to bed sobbing themselves to sleep looking their mothers and fathers who were either killed or seriously injured today. Please allow a country their grief, back off.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:16 PM

I pray for the well being of all UKers. I also hope when it is determine who did it, the SAS will be given directives to deal with them in no uncertain terms. No international court; no trial.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

He's just trying to get someone to raise to his bait. If the memory of our experience with Martin Gibson teaches us anything at all it's to ignore this type and they will go away. Without an audience they are nothing.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,ragdall
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

- adding my Canadian thoughts and prayers for all affected by this tragedy.

LTS, thank you for posting so much information.

Mudcat, thanks for being online, when other means of communication were down.

rags


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM

"GUEST,Memory of Martin Gibson"

This particular GUEST is a sick piece of shit. Always has been. Forget him. He just isn't worth it. Never has been.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Steve De Orc
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:45 PM

Liz Well Said, also were does he get all this Islamo/Facist shite from?? Today we suffred a savage attack from a bunch of lunatics so please dont start spouting Racial hatred here.

Steve De Orc


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM

Such awful news. I'm glad our friends from Mudcat are OK. My thoughts and prayers are with those killed and injured.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Den
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:06 PM

My condolences go to the people of London who lost loved ones and especially any relatives of mudcatters. I echo the Curators thoughts that children are going to bed tonight having lost parents who's only crime was going to work to provide for their own.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM

Thanks... I thought that as other communications were down, it might be useful for accurate information (taken straight from the BBC) would be appreciated.

Good night all..... take care.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

LONDON - Terror struck in the heart of London on Thursday as explosions ripped through three subway trains and blasted the roof off a crowded red double-decker bus. At least 37 people were killed and more than 700 wounded in the deadliest attack on the city since the blitz in World War II.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_eu/britain_explosion


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Joybell
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 06:50 PM

Sending our thoughts too. So terrible. Thank you Liz for the reports and all. Joy and her True-Love in Aus.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Col K
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:10 PM

Its so sad when something as tragic as this happens and some Guests seem to want to stir up hatred amongst us all.
Be thankful that the numbers of casualties is not higher.
My thoughts go out to all those people who have lost friends and relatives and also to those who are injured.
Thanks must go to all the rescue services for the superb job they have been doing all day.

Peace to us all

Col


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:24 PM

NPR was on this morning as I slogged through my pre-leaving for work chores, but my ears weren't paying attention. And I didn't get below the top few music threads the few minutes I had on Mudcat.

But then I got in the car and actually LISTENED to the radio. Oh. My. Gawd.

As soon as the computer was up at work I checked in at Mudcat, hoping to find news (good news) about our London Mudcat friends. And I'm very thankful that pretty much everyone had checked in and were safe. Didn't have time to check further (or even listen to the news) until I got home again (late) tonight.

Our thoughts and prayers are with not only our London friends, but those we don't know as well.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:33 PM

Liz, Thank You for all the help and info you passed along to us Today. It has been very appreciated.

London Catters. I am relieved and grateful that you are all safe.

To the Families of those Killed and Injured today. My deepest, Heartfelt Sympathies.

(To the idiot that came into this Thread with a HATE filled heart. You serve no purpose here. NONE. You are irrelevant. Go away. I think I can safely say that there is now ZERO tolerance for your kind here on the Mudcat. That will be my first and last comment to you.)

Again I am very grateful tonight that our Friends in London are safe.
My Heart is sad however.
Sending my Thoughts and Blessings across the Pond.
Much Love,
Jude


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:36 PM

From listening to the Beeb I can only say how well the emergancy services are handling the attacks and aftermath. That points to calm collected thought rather than a knee jerk reaction against majority of Muslims who have nothing to do with this.

Yes MG's Memory we Brits are more tolerant, except with people trying to stir up trouble.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:43 PM

Relieved to hear the London 'Catters seem to be present and accounted for... are there any we haven't heard of/from yet?

The analysis I heard on BBC radio seemed to think the G8 taking place would explain the timing & location of these attacks -- due to the world's attention being focused on the UK, the attacks would get more attention/have more impact.

LtS, your story reminds me of a Zen story (here's a much-shortened version): A farmer finds a horse grazing in his yard one morning; all his neighbours say "What good fortune!" He says "Maybe... maybe not..."

The horse kicks his son & breaks his (the son's) leg; all his neighbours say "You were right after all -- what bad luck!". He says "Maybe... maybe not..."

The army comes by 'recruiting' (think press-ganging), but leaves the son because he has a broken leg...

You won't take it wrong if I say I'm glad you fell off your bike?

YY, thinking of those who have not been so lucky...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:44 PM

such a very long day.......I am sad for those who lost loved ones, glad that no Mudcat members seem to have been in the midst of it all, and appalled that ANYONE would post anonymous messages of hate and rancor at such a time!

Please be careful, those of you in London, and know that most of us are more concerned with your well-being than with placing blame.

I hope tomorrow is peaceful, and that the injured are take care of and recover.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM

My son, who commutes through Liverepool Street, was saying that in a way it's a relief it's happened, because we knew it was going to sooner or later.

Not that that means that something like this won't happen again, but there's a sense that we can have more confidence that collectively today's London is geared to cope with it without falling apart.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:11 PM

We've just got back from an overnight in Vermont and heard the news on the motel TV this morning. Luckily I was able to contact SINSULL who let me know that the London 'Catters were checking in but I still have to find out if my ex work colleagues got off unscathed.

If I hadn't moved to Maine I would have been travelling through Liverpool Street this morning.

Londoners all knew that this was going to happen some day but it still hits hard when it does. I do believe that there is a very stoical strain in the Brits, especially with the IRA atrocities that have occurred in the past.

I'm glad that you are all OK. My heart goes out to all those injured and who have lost loved ones today.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 08:27 PM

Yes McGrath, I travelled through London today and the vibe I got was one of inevitability and a tinge of relief that it had gotten over with.

And although we all know the details are horrific, up until today we never knew if we would get hit 9/11 style or by chemical warfare in the tube system etc etc.

There is a sense that it could have been a whole lot worse numberswise, but that is not to detract from individual suffering. At the moment the numbers seem managable, but when the photos and life stories appear in the papers, and we 'get to know' the dead, I think the sadness will set in.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

I am thinking of brave London and all who reside therein. May England, Great Britain, The U.K. continue to show greatness and go on to better times than these.

From robo, newly returned to Alaska, and just been over to the neighbors the other night what to see: Sean Of The Dead, which is not to make light of the day's atrocities but to emphasize the incongruities of life to yours truly.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:29 AM

All I would care to say about this dreadful business is to agree with Ken Livingstone's great speech. Yes, people will keep coming to live in London,escaping other dreadful regimes, because they want to live free in London. Well said,Ken.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:51 AM

And to whoever......don't make the mistake of confusing tolerance with wekness..

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Jane Crosby
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:56 AM

Love and peace to all.

I'm not religious so those of you who are, could you advise how we should let these people (who are prepared to commit such murder)know that these actions will not ensure they will go to their version of heaven?

Jane


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:24 AM

I posted earlier that both my boys travelled in yesterday.
Ben arrived at Liverpool Street as survivors of the first bomb were emerging from the Underground and spent time talking to people in various states of shock and trauma. They all knew it was a bomb and not a "power surge"
Tim passed through Kings Cross on a tube train after that bomb had gone off but beforethe station was closed.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:28 AM

I can't understand what all the fuss is all about. I't's scarcely the Blitz with 60,000 odd dead is it? We should dissapoint the terrorists, who are watching all this over-the-top blanket media coverage with glee, and the mistaken impression that they have achieved something more than to bring Londoners together, by giving them a true English reply -

"Terrorist attack? What terrorist attack?"

Mosquitoes should be swatted, but not considered anything of any importance.

This is not hard-heartedness to the victims - who should be pitied and mourned - but a determination not to let these insignificant insects think that they have achieved anything. London forever!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:43 AM

Yes Ooh Aah, as attacks go it was feeble.
4 small bombs.
London is mostly back to normal this morning.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:49 AM

The difference is - with the Blitz you knew where the enemy were coming from and you had a chance to defend or protect yourself. You knew that the enemy was 'over there' and you were 'here on the home front'. You had warning that they were coming and you knew where you would be relatively safe.

Yesterday there were no warnings, there was no way to defend or protect. The enemy was sitting on a bus next to you, standing on the escalator behind you, or living next door to you. The very places that kept Londoners safe during the Blitz, became tombs for some of them yesterday.

I agree that the response should be 'Get on with it and get back to normal'.... but normal is something that some 700 families may never be again.

And remember... mosquitos cause more deaths in Africa than almost anything else.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:16 AM

Linda left work a bit earlier than usual, yesterday and managed to get a train out from Cannon Street station almost straight away as the SE trains were not badly affected. She left at her normal time this morning and got into the city with no problems. Quite a lot of people who travel in from the North side of the river will probably take a day off today as much of the public transport from those areas is a bit uncertain.

Terrible and tragic as the bombings were, London is a very big place and the chances of being involved in one of the incidents yesterday would have been quite low even for those who work in Central London.

I'll be off to work in a short time, but the nearest my jouney takes me to the centre of Town are London Bridge and Waterloo stations.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM

I would repeat the words of Nick Griffin yesterday here and urge people to do something constructive and give blood.

This attack in no way means that ALL muslims in the UK are terrorists, and i agree it should not be viewed that way.

We have a problem however. Immigration into this country unchecked has indeed imported people whom we have no knowledge of their background. THat is not 'RACISM' but just the reality.

www.bnp.org.uk


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:46 AM

My hubby's work have given them all the option to "work at home" - mostly for fear of revenge attacks in retalliation for what happened yesterday. ....and I thought I'd get a quiet afternoon with school breaking up at noon today...Ho Hum

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:04 AM

No more need forthis thread's B. S. identification.

This can now become another official British Song thread.

Bomb chaos closes gigs, theatres


REM and Queen have postponed weekend gigs in London

Theatre productions across the capital were called off for the day.

The Sum 41 gig was shelved because the band's core audience was teenagers whose parents were unlikely to allow them to travel into the city.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:37 AM

My nephew in Australia just sent me this:

http://www.inreview.co.uk/news/005167.php

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:38 AM

Damn! I was hoping to make a blue clicky but it didn't work. Will someone do it for me please?

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:43 AM

http://www.lnreview.co.uk/news/005167.php


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:54 AM

Thank you


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:55 AM

Lynne,

Here: http://www.inreview.co.uk/news/005167.php


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:20 AM

We have a problem however. Immigration into this country unchecked has indeed imported people whom we have no knowledge of their background. THat is not 'RACISM' but just the reality.

www.bnp.org.uk


Just what we need. The BNP are just as bad as Al Quaida, the same evil fanatics. This disgusting arsehole Hamman wants to make cheap political gains out of the deaths of dozends of people of all ethnic backgrounds, follow up the bombings with a race war, Serbianise this country. He should be interned for our own safety.

No knowledge of their background? We know YOURS, you evil sod.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:21 AM

Death toll just risen to 50


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: MBSLynne
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:05 AM

Presumably the critically ill who couldn't be saved? When I heard that they had all made it through the night I was relieved and amazed, but I guess it was unfortunatley unlikely to continue. Let's just hope there will be no more

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:13 AM

Some things stay the same even when they change. Here's what Noel Coward wrote about a song of his that seems newly relevant today: "London Pride was written in the spring of 1941. I was standing on the platform of a London railway station on the morning after a bad blitz. Most of the glass in the station roof had been blown out and there was dust in the air and the smell of burning.

I watched Londoners scurrying about in the thin spring sunshine � they all seemed to me to be gay and determined and wholly admirable and for a moment or two I was overwhelmed by a wave of sentimental pride. The song started in my head then and there and was finished in a couple of days.

The tune is based on the traditional lavender-seller�s song �Won�t you buy my sweet blooming lavender�. I am proud of the words of this song. They express what I felt at the time and what I still feel":


London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Woa, Liza,
See the coster barrows,
Vegetable marrows
And the fruit piled high.
Woa, Liza,
Little London sparrows,
Covent Garden Market where the costers cry.
Cockney feet
Mark the beat of history.
Every street
Pins a memory down.
Nothing ever can quite replace
The grace of London Town.

INTERLUDE
There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
We in England call it London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Hey, lady,
When the day is dawning
See the policeman yawning
On his lonely beat.
Gay lady,
Mayfair in the morning,
Hear your footsteps echo in the empty street.
Early rain
And the pavement's glistening.
All Park Lane
In a shimmering gown.
Nothing ever could break or harm
The charm of London Town.

INTERLUDE
In our city darkened now, street and square and crescent,
We can feel our living past in our shadowed present,
Ghosts beside our starlit Thames
Who lived and loved and died
Keep throughout the ages London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Grey city
Stubbornly implanted,
Taken so for granted
For a thousand years.
Stay, city,
Smokily enchanted,
Cradle of our memories and hopes and fears.
Every Blitz
Your resistance
Toughening,
From the Ritz
To the Anchor and Crown,
Nothing ever could override
The pride of London Town.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:16 AM

Some things stay the same even when they change. Here's what Noel Coward wrote about a song of his that seems newly relevant today: "London Pride was written in the spring of 1941. I was standing on the platform of a London railway station on the morning after a bad blitz. Most of the glass in the station roof had been blown out and there was dust in the air and the smell of burning.

I watched Londoners scurrying about in the thin spring sunshine. They all seemed to me to be gay and determined and wholly admirable and for a moment or two I was overwhelmed by a wave of sentimental pride. The song started in my head then and there and was finished in a couple of days.

The tune is based on the traditional lavender-seller's song 'Won't you buy my sweet blooming lavender'. I am proud of the words of this song. They express what I felt at the time and what I still feel"
:

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Woa, Liza,
See the coster barrows,
Vegetable marrows
And the fruit piled high.
Woa, Liza,
Little London sparrows,
Covent Garden Market where the costers cry.
Cockney feet
Mark the beat of history.
Every street
Pins a memory down.
Nothing ever can quite replace
The grace of London Town.

INTERLUDE
There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
We in England call it London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Hey, lady,
When the day is dawning
See the policeman yawning
On his lonely beat.
Gay lady,
Mayfair in the morning,
Hear your footsteps echo in the empty street.
Early rain
And the pavement's glistening.
All Park Lane
In a shimmering gown.
Nothing ever could break or harm
The charm of London Town.

INTERLUDE
In our city darkened now, street and square and crescent,
We can feel our living past in our shadowed present,
Ghosts beside our starlit Thames
Who lived and loved and died
Keep throughout the ages London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Grey city
Stubbornly implanted,
Taken so for granted
For a thousand years.
Stay, city,
Smokily enchanted,
Cradle of our memories and hopes and fears.
Every Blitz
Your resistance
Toughening,
From the Ritz
To the Anchor and Crown,
Nothing ever could override
The pride of London Town.Some things stay the same even when they change. Here's what Noel Coward wrote about a song of his that seems newly relevant today: "London Pride was written in the spring of 1941. I was standing on the platform of a London railway station on the morning after a bad blitz. Most of the glass in the station roof had been blown out and there was dust in the air and the smell of burning.

I watched Londoners scurrying about in the thin spring sunshine � they all seemed to me to be gay and determined and wholly admirable and for a moment or two I was overwhelmed by a wave of sentimental pride. The song started in my head then and there and was finished in a couple of days.

The tune is based on the traditional lavender-seller�s song �Won�t you buy my sweet blooming lavender�. I am proud of the words of this song. They express what I felt at the time and what I still feel":

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Woa, Liza,
See the coster barrows,
Vegetable marrows
And the fruit piled high.
Woa, Liza,
Little London sparrows,
Covent Garden Market where the costers cry.
Cockney feet
Mark the beat of history.
Every street
Pins a memory down.
Nothing ever can quite replace
The grace of London Town.

INTERLUDE
There's a little city flower every spring unfailing
Growing in the crevices by some London railing,
Though it has a Latin name, in town and country-side
We in England call it London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Hey, lady,
When the day is dawning
See the policeman yawning
On his lonely beat.
Gay lady,
Mayfair in the morning,
Hear your footsteps echo in the empty street.
Early rain
And the pavement's glistening.
All Park Lane
In a shimmering gown.
Nothing ever could break or harm
The charm of London Town.

INTERLUDE
In our city darkened now, street and square and crescent,
We can feel our living past in our shadowed present,
Ghosts beside our starlit Thames
Who lived and loved and died
Keep throughout the ages London Pride.

London Pride has been handed down to us.
London Pride is a flower that's free.
London Pride means our own dear town to us,
And our pride it for ever will be.
Grey city
Stubbornly implanted,
Taken so for granted
For a thousand years.
Stay, city,
Smokily enchanted,
Cradle of our memories and hopes and fears.
Every Blitz
Your resistance
Toughening,
From the Ritz
To the Anchor and Crown,
Nothing ever could override
The pride of London Town.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:22 AM

I'm alive!

I work in Aldgate East, just a few buildings from the tube station.
(If you saw the news coverage of Aldgate East tube, you saw our
building) I came through about an hour before all the explosions, but
some of my colleagues had closer calls - one on the tube before the
one that exploded, and several on the ones after, that never got in
to work. But we had nobody injured or lost, though lots of people
called to see if we were all OK.
We were blockaded into the office most of the day, as we were so
close to the station, and because there were suspect vehicles in the
streets at the front & back of us. Today there are rail services
running, and a reduced Tube service, but much of the streets are
cordoned off.
London was very strange yesterday - eerily quiet, with no traffic,
just sirens and helicopers, and lots of people wandering about,
shepherded by yellow-jacketed police and a few armed soldiers here &
there. Spooky. But it's not the first time we've been bombed, and it
doubtless won't be the last - although much of the City seems to be
taking the day off for a long weekend, there was & is no panic, and
people are just getting on with it.

I expect most things will be back to normal by Monday - just in time
for the start of the chaos that preparing for the blasted Olympics
will cause! :)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:42 AM

I'm glad all the London Catters seem to be fine, I just hope all the others who might have been in London for meetings from all the other places in the UK are ok My mum was meant to be in a meeting near Russell Square yesterday, but on Wednesday their meeting was cancelled, meaning she didn't have to travel down to London (by train)... enough said really. but Circumstances and coincidence work in strange ways.

Best wishes to those who might not be so fortunate.

Ella who is Sooze.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:35 AM

I hadn't realised there were so many Mudcatters around here. perhaps we should have a mudgather in the Hoop & Grapes when it reopens!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:44 AM

I'm on ! Hoop n Grapes is a favourite !


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:58 AM

Been scrolling up ... " ... still able to bring a city to its knees ???? " Ellenpooly ??????
We're still standing according to popular opinion in the Lamb, Leadenhall Market as of 5 minutes ago ....


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM

I'm sure you could count linda in - and if you make it after work I could pop in on my way back from Kingston


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:21 AM

Saw a report this a.m. saying that some hoteliers in London upped their room rates last night, in some cases triple.

The source for this was reported as "a number of people who decided to stay in London overnight".

If true, the profiteers should be named in all the media, so that visitors to London could avoid them.

The opposite side of this coin is the report that Marks & Spencer sent staff out with blankets, and bottles of water for the survivers, and walking wounded. When they ran out of blankets they took clothing from the racks, and handed that out.

Deserving of much praise and appreciation.

It just proves that crises can bring out both the best and the worst in us

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Flash Company
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM

Struck by a sobering thought this a.m.
Ten years ago my job involved a monthly credit meeting in Slough. My itinerary each month was to leave Manchester on Wed p.m., travel down to London, stay in Russell Square Wed night and have a meal and an evening at the 100 Club.
Thursday, early breakfast, underground from Russell Square via Kings Cross to Paddington and on to Slough for a 9.00 a.m. start.
I could easily have been caught in the middle of this, makes you think!
On the other hand, The IRA were up to their tricks in those days, and I still walked around London at midnight and felt safe.

FC


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:17 AM

We first heard the news when my in-laws called from Japan to ask if my kids in England were all right. They are nowhere near London so I wasn't worried but several others called to ask if they were. I called this evening and.... they are fine.

I am so relieved to know that our Mudcat brethren and sistren are fine and so heartbroken to know that so many people have had their lives torn apart by this senseless violence.

On the one hand this is a wanderful world when people around the globe can pull together to help each other in times of need. I am in Guam, my in-laws are in Japan and do not speak English. They were worried about two young adults they have never met and possibly never will meet. The two young people in question are literally on the other side of the world from us. Also in this thread are people who have never met and people who are old friends and, with the exception of the trolls and flamers, we are all agreed that violence is not the answer.

And then there are those who reject the future and the melding of the human race into one big family. They strike out with words, guns, and bombs. They are both educated and ignorant. Some of them are rich but most of them are poor. They come from all walks of life and represent all races, creeds, religions and genders. We appeal to them to lay down your weapons. Make a stand for decency and peace.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM

We're still standing according to popular opinion in the Lamb, Leadenhall Market as of 5 minutes ago

Trying not to be, eh?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM

Sorry Docktor, I didn't mean to imply that Londoners went down on their knees. On the contrary, the people were at their best; helping each other, donating blood, organizing assistance in all sorts of ways.

What I meant was that the city did indeed come to a standstill for pretty much the rest of the day. Transportation did get up and running (at least some of the buses by late afternoon, and the Docklands Light Rail) but the point I was trying to make is that whether we like it or not, and no matter how much security might have been in place, cities like London will always be vulnerable to those who are intent on creating chaos.

I've been down to London today and though the streets were certainly quieter than usual, what I saw was people getting on with their lives, people who weren't about to let themselves be frightened out of their city for any longer than it took to get the transport back up and running.

Yes, I'm sure there were many who decided that since it was Friday, a little early weekend wouldn't be a bad idea, and this was supported by the transport authorities. But I didn't see anger, or paranoia, or anything other than a city willing itself back to normality.

I love this city, and what happened yesterday only confirmed how amazing it is.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

"We're still standing according to popular opinion in the Lamb, Leadenhall Market as of 5 minutes ago ...."

A few more pints of Young's Special and that statement might be doubtful !

I once saw a film (I think it had Michael Caine in it) where there was an incredible pub fight, set in the Lamb.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 11:21 AM

I was wrong about Michael Caine, it was "Brannigan" starring John Wayne.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM

Amazingly some Hotel and guest house owners increased there prices following the bombs, a Manchester businessman told Radio 5 Lve [BBC] he was charged £210 for a London Hotel room, the same Hotels charge the previous week was £90.

A government spokesman has said that there will be an inquiry into this, how low can these bastards crawl?, many of these workers had to remain overnight in London and they were easy picking for these scum, if the Brit government do there duty they should hit them hard.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:00 PM

That is the sort of thing that makes me ashamed of my countrymen. Absolute weasels like that deserve to have their establishments publicised so that we can make a choice to boycott them. Hopefully the British newspapers will follow up on this.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Peg
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

I hope all of you and yours are safe and well, UK Catters....sad day. We did a candlelight vigil for the known dead and the injured and their loved ones last night and will keep the candles lit all week.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

Paul Burke:

I am not going to respond again to your disgusting accusation that i am as bad as the terrorists who may have orchestrated this sickening attack.

I will merely repeat what i said before. It is clear that it should NOT be viewed that ALL muslims are labelled terrorists. We have to be careful about this.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Memory of martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

rephrased:

Great Britain brought this on itself with it's tolerance of Islamo-facist groups who have infiltrated their country in the name of tolerance.

Now the price is being paid for unchecked tolerance!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:01 PM

Memory, we can tolerate who we want, and it is not for you to judge. If everyine was as tolerant, perhaps there woudn't BE a problem.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:11 PM

Cire, i take it you do condemn the muslim terrorists who have bombed this country? Why don't you attack them for their intolerance?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:19 PM

Memory, a lot on here are more concerned about proving to themselves and others desperately how 'tolerant' 'liberal' and 'modern' they are in an effort allay their self-loathing.

lets face it, when muslims terrorists are bombing our country and muslims in uk are reported on news as celebrating it means enough is enough. must britain always bend over to the aggressor?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

I condemn no one, because I have no one to pinpoint it on concretely. Give me hard evidence, and the proper names. Then, have them brought to justice by the proper people. I refuse to attack the muslim people for something a bunch of terrorist extremists have done.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Anti Nazi league
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM

GO AWAY Hannam...you have NOTHING to say that ANYBODY wants to hear on the Mudcat and in particular on this Thread and while your going take Guest: memory of martin gobshite, with you.
Now take your Hate Filled Political Diatribe elsewhere. Your one sick puppy Lad with a lot of growing up to do. Go play on your own Party's website. At least you can find other sickos there that will be willing to exchange your same twisted views with.
You are most definetly in a Zero Tolerance towards Nazis Zone here...so...run along


Glad that all the London Catters are safe and accounted for.
Cheers and all the Best


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 03:54 PM

McGrath praises Ken Livingstone and calls his words effective and impressive. Livingstone used the word 'cowardly' to describe the terrorist action at a time when he couldn't know whether the bombings were suicide bombings or not. I agree with McGrath here. But is this the same McGrath who once said:

And as if it made sense to describe a suicide bomber as "cowardly", as if that was the ultimate insult that has to be dragged in, however absurd. It's a way of filling in the space and saying something that sounds appropriate, but which doesn't make any kind of sense at all. The trouble is, that space could be filled by saying things that did make sense.

Ah, I see: If Livingstone says 'cowardly' that's impressive, but if Bush in a similar situation uses these words that doesn't make sense.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:00 PM

Wolfgang:

Bingo. All judgements here seem to be based on whether one agrees with the politics of the person, regardless of any facts involved.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

Wolfgang, that isn't fair. McGrath said that Livingstone's words were impressive and cited exactly which words. He did not say that Livingstone calling suicide bombers cowardly was.... and if he did, I missed it. Take what people say in the context they say it, not out of it.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,The Truthful memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

Brits, your Moslem neighbors are plotting against you!

Your tolerance is probably going to be your downfall.

Tolerate the ones who want to defeat you.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

The last I read there were about 30 people dead--some of whom may have been Muslims; 700 injured--some of whom may have been Muslims. I cannot believe this thread has degenerated so. I am not British. However, if this had happened in Canada, and it well might at sometime in the future, I will beg my government to pull out all the stops, find those who did it, unleash JTF2, bring the killers to justice and send those who dispatched them to a better world--without benefit of trial.

The racists here who are blaming a whole people for what some sick bastards have done are the worst of sewer slime. A whole people did NOT plant the bombs. A few people did. Reserve your vitriol for them and their leaders.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Like all Americans, I suffered emotionally o 9/11/01. Let me pass on what I learned.

You will feel shock, horror and rage. You won't be able to sleep. Lack of sleep will then harm your moods and your ability to think clearly, so be extra careful at work and when driving, etc.

The bombing seems to be over. Turn off the TV and radio. The media survive by manipulating people's emotions.

Give a donation, the biggest you can, to an organization which is helping the victims. It may not be logical, but it will help soothe your racing mind.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

Actually if you read the whole Livingstone statement he did recognise that the kind of people involved in organising these kind of atrocities are often not afraid to die in the process of carrying them out -
"Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life. I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous."

But in fact I think it likely that Livingstione would have been making a reasonable working assumption that, on this particular occasion, these weren't cases of "suicide bombing" ,any more than they had been in the Madrid train bombings.   

It may yet turn out that this was a mistaken assumption, but I'd suspect that the people organising the bombings would wish to conserve their limited human resources, and would be more likely to use timing devices where possible. That appears to be how the London police are reading it too at present.

And I still think it was a pretty good statement, especially in the way it set out to derail attempts of racists to exploit the bombings. It's worth clicking on that link I gave and reading it in full.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: AlexB
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM

Current death count is 50.... it was 38 when I went to bed last night without counts from the bus. There are possibly more trapped in one of the trains, and they aren't sure if all the ones from the bus are accounted for.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:45 PM

Incidentally, I don't think that the racist/sectarian trolling in this thread is necessarily quite what it seems. It could equally be someone who shares the ideology of the bombers, who is working away at trying to encourage the kind of anti-Muslim reaction they would obviously like to see happening. Either way it is best ignored.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:46 PM

Erm...as i said, it is USELESS TO BLAME ALL MUSLIMS FOR A MINORITY OF MUSLIM TERRORISTS that have carried out this attack.

It is not racist to condemn muslims however who have been seen celebrating the attacks in London. It is Sick Sick Sick.



Oh and anti-nazi league whoever you are you coward, please update your website, it hasn't been updated for 3 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahaha


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Well....I've been reading this since yesterday...felt too upset to post then....but I'm glad that I've come in right below this nasty message.

First of all, there is so much love and concern on this thread. DON'T lose that. DON'T let the people who want to hurt you and others get to you everyone. Just keep this thread as it started out....strong and filled with concern and love. Ignore them and they'll go away.

A few posts back 'Naemanson' said this:

"And then there are those who reject the future and the melding of the human race into one big family."

Those are some of the most important words on this thread. Remember them and don't rise to the bait you are being given.

We are all one family, one nation, one people and one world.

This joyful and terrible week has shown us both sides of human nature. We have seen the possibility, now being taken up, of new life being given to Africa and we have seen life being torn away in a terrible and unfeeling manner in one of the world's capital cities. We have also seen people at their best, rushing to help, being there, comforting, uplifting. People of all colours and backgrounds were killed, injured, shocked.....but everyone came together as one, no divide.

Please don't let this wonderful thread be brought down to anger and aggression. If you want to deal with the idiots who are now coming on here, then you deal with it with love. You make your posts become even more filled with hope and unity.

We need to change this world around so very, very badly, for our children and their children and for the terrorists children and their children too. No-one should have so much hate in them that they want to kill their own species.

We are all one people.

Keep the uplifiting spirit of this thread alive.

Please

Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Also, to be fair if people want to discuss muslim intolerance there was a thread specifically geared towards that end/debate.

Let us end the bickering on here really simply accept this is a tragedy that has indeed killed people of all backgrounds and races in London.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,TF/NY
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM

Yesterday's bombings in downtown London are profoundly disturbing. In part, that is because a bombing in our mother country and closest ally, England, is almost like a bombing in our own country. In part, it's because one assault may have involved a suicide bomber, bringing this terrible jihadist weapon into the heart of a major Western capital. That would be deeply troubling because open societies depend on trust - on trusting that the person sitting next to you on the bus or subway is not wearing dynamite.

The attacks are also deeply disturbing because when jihadist bombers take their madness into the heart of our open societies, our societies are never again quite as open. Indeed, we all just lost a little freedom yesterday.

But maybe the most important aspect of the London bombings is this: When jihadist-style bombings happen in Riyadh, that is a Muslim-Muslim problem. That is a police problem for Saudi Arabia. But when Al-Qaeda-like bombings come to the London Underground, that becomes a civilizational problem. Every Muslim living in a Western society suddenly becomes a suspect, becomes a potential walking bomb. And when that happens, it means Western countries are going to be tempted to crack down even harder on their own Muslim populations.
That, too, is deeply troubling. The more Western societies - particularly the big European societies, which have much larger Muslim populations than America - look on their own Muslims with suspicion, the more internal tensions this creates, and the more alienated their already alienated Muslim youth become. This is exactly what Osama bin Laden dreamed of with 9/11: to create a great gulf between the Muslim world and the globalizing West.

So this is a critical moment. We must do all we can to limit the civilizational fallout from this bombing. But this is not going to be easy. Why? Because unlike after 9/11, there is no obvious, easy target to retaliate against for bombings like those in London. There are no obvious terrorist headquarters and training camps in Afghanistan that we can hit with cruise missiles. The Al Qaeda threat has metastasized and become franchised. It is no longer vertical, something that we can punch in the face. It is now horizontal, flat and widely distributed, operating through the Internet and tiny cells.

Because there is no obvious target to retaliate against, and because there are not enough police to police every opening in an open society, either the Muslim world begins to really restrain, inhibit and denounce its own extremists - if it turns out that they are behind the London bombings - or the West is going to do it for them. And the West will do it in a rough, crude way - by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent.

And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult. It takes a village.

What do I mean? I mean that the greatest restraint on human behavior is never a policeman or a border guard. The greatest restraint on human behavior is what a culture and a religion deem shameful. It is what the village and its religious and political elders say is wrong or not allowed. Many people said Palestinian suicide bombing was the spontaneous reaction of frustrated Palestinian youth. But when Palestinians decided that it was in their interest to have a cease-fire with Israel, those bombings stopped cold. The village said enough was enough.

The Muslim village has been derelict in condemning the madness of jihadist attacks. When Salman Rushdie wrote a controversial novel involving the prophet Muhammad, he was sentenced to death by the leader of Iran. To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden.
Some Muslim leaders have taken up this challenge. This past week in Jordan, King Abdullah II hosted an impressive conference in Amman for moderate Muslim thinkers and clerics who want to take back their faith from those who have tried to hijack it. But this has to go further and wider.

The double-decker buses of London and the subways of Paris, as well as the covered markets of Riyadh, Bali and Cairo, will never be secure as long as the Muslim village and elders do not take on, delegitimize, condemn and isolate the extremists in their midst.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM

Do we have any evidence that they were Muslim terrorists? Do we have ANYTHING to suggest their religion other than a spurious claim on a website from a faction that no-one in the Anti Terrorist squad or Muslim leaders had heard of?

Please, stop posting your anti Muslim trash on this forum.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM

The Door opens and they rush in falling over themselves to spout their hate Liz. Like you say before anything is known.

Please..Please, I ask you, as Liz asked you and as a few other Members have asked. Stop posting your anti Muslim trash on this forum.
None of us have any desire to read it. Please Stop it.
It is VERY unwelcome here.

Jude


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM

And because I think that would be a disaster, it is essential that the Muslim world wake up to the fact that it has a jihadist death cult in its midst. If it does not fight that death cult, that cancer, within its own body politic, it is going to infect Muslim-Western relations everywhere. Only the Muslim world can root out that death cult. It takes a village.

The Muslim extremists are using this exact same rationale for their violent actions against western countries like the US and Britain, who have been bombing and shooting tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who are propping up brutal dicators in other largely Muslim countries. They are saying that by not adequately standing up to our politicians and making them stop, we, the innocent civilians of the US and Britain are just as responsible.

Personally, I think both premises are equally faulty.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mohammed Mac Donald
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:47 PM

Been listening to Clapton today

Further On Up The Road
by Joe Medwich Veasey and Don D. Robey

Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road,
Baby, just you wait and see.


You gotta reap just what you sow;
That old saying is true.
You gotta reap just what you sow;
That old saying is true.
Just like you mistreat someone,
Someone's gonna mistreat you.


You been laughing, pretty baby,
Someday you're gonna be crying.
You been laughing, pretty baby,
Someday you're gonna be crying.
Further on up the road
You'll find out I wasn't lying.


Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road
Someone's gonna hurt you like you hurt me.
Further on up the road,
Baby, just you wait and see.

ADRESS THE CAUSES OF TERRORISM!!!!

Otherwise it will be deja vu all over again


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Truthful Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 05:58 PM

Liz the Squeek, you win the award for either the most naieve or ignorant.

If it makes you feel better, it wasn't Moslems. It was that other sick extremist religous cult, roman Catholic nuns.

Face it, it was your jihad neighbors who you tolerate in your country in droves.

Want to get rid of them? Put a padlock on all of the mosques.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM

liz how do you feel about muslims celebrating in London about the attacks?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM

And someone accused ME of supporting the BNP..... looks to me like there's a new candidate.

I do not 'tolerate' Muslims. I accept them, I welcome them and I'm proud to include some of them as my friends.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

That GUEST,TF/NY post is in fact a cut and paste from from the New York Times, an article by Thomas Friedman.

I suppose that label "GUEST,TF/NY" might have been itended to identify it as such and say where it came from, but if so it was a bit obscure, since it could have meant just about anything.

The generally acepted etiquette is to give a link and a quote, to avoid turning the Mudcat into a collection of articles by strangers who aren't in fact part of the discussion.

Unless of course our Guest in this case actually is the Thomas Friedman who wrote the article...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

Considering how quickly the BNP have jumped on this and are opportunistically using it to promote their agenda, if I were the one conducting the official investigations into the bombings, I think the BNP would be one of the first groups I would be looking at.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

that doesn't answer the question Liz about how do you feel about some muslims in London celebrating in broad daylight the attacks? Don't you want to answer?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM

Again, why not allow this thread to continue as it started, and if someone wants to discuss muslim intolerance, such as cheering muslims in London after attacks then let them do it there?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:27 PM

A peaceful people soiled by lunatic religious fanatics!

My sympathy to the families and relatives of those murdered and injured.

When Oh when will this insanity end? It used be the UDA and the IRA, now it's any buggar with a chip on his shoulder. Can't they see that killing innocent people only makes our resolve the stronger to continue to be democratic and civilised!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:39 PM

America may not have had this problem before but the UK has experience of the unknown bomber for many years. During the time that the IRA were mounting their terror campaign no one could know whether the person sitting next to them on the train or bus was carrying a bomb. No difference in the colour of the skin then, just a different accent maybe and, in cities like London, that was not unusual.

The, as now, most people were aware that most of the Irish did not agree with the terrorists and I think that will be the case now. However, in the case of Northern Ireland, the disapproval of the 'village' made no difference. In fact, a friend of mine many years ago was told by the IRA "If you're not with us you're against us". He came to the mainland to escape the consequences.

I wish it was not so, but it seems that there is a small nucleus of people who HAVE to be right and nothing will make them move from their path of violence.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

if you revere the memory of Martin - remember him at his best when he was opinionated but caring about music, knowledgeable about guitars and occasionally very witty.

we used to put up with the daft stuff. if you want to say daft things, say it on your own account - and even better say it somewhere else.

we like our tolerant multi racial society. most of us vote for it. nice article by Tony parsons about the bombing in the Mirror today, which I think struck the right note. I didn't used to like him much - shows I was wrong, and should have been more tolerant.

Folkies should read derek brimstone's Til I was Twenty which has graphic scenes from the Blitz. I thnk its not a case of London taking it, the people just had to endure the unendurable.

all the best

al


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 07:57 PM

The terrorism unleashed in London yesterday, together with the reaction of the British public, contrasts with the devastation brought upon Spain almost a year and a half ago.

I'd be interested in observations on the different reactions by the different publics, as the Spanish people changed government and announded a withdrawal from the allied forces in Iraq soon after their trains were horribly bombed.

Note should also be made of the continuing suffering of the Iraqi public at the hands of Arab terrorists.

In general, the terrorists win when they cause their victims to behave like terrorists in response.

Again, my best wishes to the Mother Country, Great Britain. I'll look around for a competent charity to donate, and if someone knowledgeable on the Eastern side of the pond can mention one, I'd be glad to know of it.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

At what point do we ask, "Why didn't Bush and Blair pursue the terrorists instead of invading Iraq?"

Saddam is history and all we have done is destroy a country and its innocent civilians. In the meantime, the terrorists continue to recruit and plan more violence. Maybe if we pursued terrorists with the same military might and billions of dollars, this could have been prevented. Instead Bush and Blair have put all of us at risk because they were unable to establish clear priorities.

I hold Bush and Blair responsible for what has occurred in London.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

Not at this point.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,ObL Award
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM

I hold Bush and Blair responsible for what has occurred in London.

Congratulations Dianavan, you have won the Osama bin Laden Award given to anyone who says its George Bush's fault whenever terrorists murder innocent people anywhere in the world.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:31 PM

"the Spanish people changed government and announded a withdrawal from the allied forces in Iraq soon after their trains were horribly bombed.

That invites people to misunderstand what actually happened in Spain. It's a lot more complicated than people being stampeded into panic voting by the bombing.

Immediately following the bombing in Madrid there was an attempt by the then government to put the blame on Eta and to pretend that the bombing had been carried out by Eta rather than by the jihadists, as an electoral ploy. Rather as if the British government were pretending this week's bombing had been carried out by Irish terrorists, regardless of the evidence, simply because they saw that as more electorally helpful.

This was so transparently a cynical attempt to swing the vote that it backfired, and caused a lot of people to vote for the opposition. There was also a far higher turnout of voters, largely because voting was seen as a way of defying the terrorists, and as in most elections, a larger turnout helps the left.

The outcome was that the Socialists were elected - and they had already made a firm commitment to pull out of Iraq if they won, in line with their consistent opposition to the war.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:35 PM

Actually, it was Bush and Blair that spawned AlQaeda and Osama bin Laden. They produced and supported these terrorists. The clerics of Iran claim that they are not Muslims but the illegitimate children of Western diplomacy.

Makes sense to me and this is why I blame Bush and Blair. Look at the history and you will see that these terrorists would never have existed if it weren't for the support they were given from their western allies. The fact that they are now enemies doesn't make either of them right. Both sides are wrong.

In fact, there are plenty of people saying that it made no sense to bomb London just when they were talking about pulling their troops from Iran. The only one to gain from bombing London at this time was the Bush administration. They will now, once again, have the support of the people in their so-called war on terrorism.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM



Are you living in some kind of fantasyland for people who love the terrorists who kill innocent people?

Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda was murdering innocent civilians long before either Bush or Blair was on the scene.

Right Dianavan, the United States of America, and dreams of freedom are the true root of all that evil in the world. That explains why so many people in Islamic countries, in former communist countries, etc. want to come here.

YOU'RE A REAL PIECE OF WORK, YOU ARE!!!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

Osama was trained by the US government (CIA), and used by them as a proxy fighter agaist the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the cold war. He has used the training given him by the US to help him do his dirty work. GW Bush did not create him, but the government of the US did. So to the extent that what he learned from the US government has made him more deadly than he would have been otherwise (if at all), you can thank them for that.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 05 - 10:07 PM

Thanks Carol for explaining my thoughts so clearly.

Osama is the creation of U.S. foreign policy.

Like the Muslim clerics in Iran are saying, he is the illegitimate son of the U.S.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:32 AM

I visited London several years ago. It is a magnificent city. Part of it's magnificence is that you can stand on a corner and watch half the world pass.
What AlQaeda did was several different kinds of stupid. To kill civilians of all races and nationalities. To turn the attention of world leaders from global warming and the poor of Africa to terrorism. To create martyrs and make themselves villains to much of London was stupid stupid stupid!
My sympaties to the people of that great and gallant city.


Incidentally, if you can find a copy of Julie Andrews, "The Lass With the Delicate Air", you'll hear a wonderful rendition of "London Pride". Ms Andrews was a fine singer.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:48 AM

Yes, the first time I arrived at Heathrow airport, i watched as people of all costumes, creeds and colours walked along beside me. It was a wonderful introduction to the UK - and to a people who I admire for their democratic and legal systems that set an example to the world.

it is clear that it is plain to everyone in the UK why this has happened. they are still in the middle of it right now.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST, JB
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM

So many peoplwe are talking about Bin Laden as if he was conducting a war of terror singelhanded from some remote cave. This is really absurd as I am constantly reminded of the words of President Mubarak (spelling?) of Egypt when he warned that blackguard Bush about invading Iraq. His message went something as follows and I paraphrase:
"If you invade Iraq, you will create thousands of Bin Ladens".

Well that`s exactly what has happened and they are all over the place and the real BL is probably somewhere in his remote cave having a good laugh at how his hatred is effectively spreading. You see Bin Laden is not a person but a vile concept and product that unfortunately has been nurtured by the likes of Bush and Blair. I`m not even sure that this guy really exists at all. Winning the war on terror my arse!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: sapper82
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM

Dianavan and CarolC;
During the Cold War, on the basis that "My Enemy's Enemy Must Be My Friend", there were a a number of alliances made with regimes that in other circumstances would not have been touched with a bargepole.
Don't forget that the US involvement with Bin Laden was in response to the USSRs totally unjustified invasion of Afghanistan and the a substantial part of the initial rise of Islamic Fundamentalism was due to that invasion. Mistakes the US and UK Governments have made, but not all the blame is down to them.
Liz;
Whilst I agree with your reaction to the Guest's provocative comments, I think the term "Islamo-Fascism" is an apt and appropriate description of the core elements of the current Jihad against us.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:50 AM

I know that this might sound terrible, but I do feel sorry sorry about what happened in London, but the media coveriage that they gave to what happen in London wass a bit over the top, I mean what about the 30 years of Killing in Northern Ireland, or if it had happened in any other city/town in Britian Somehow I don't think it would of got that much coveriage. It would be a quick, there was several explosions in Liverpool/Glasgow or whereever and now the weather.

But as I said it is sad that it happened.

But we must get on with life and not to dwell on death


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:52 AM

Ps

Or what is happening in Iraq


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:07 AM

well Tam I imagine that actually came into the terrorists thinking. My sources inside Al Quaida tell me the the original target was Grantham, but the bloke from the Grantham Journal was doing the photos for Stoke Rochford operatic society's production of Oklahoma and he couldn't be arsed to cover both stories.

all the best

al


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:09 AM

Ireland was a very sensitive issue and was treated thus by the media, which has itself evolved and expanded since then. When the IRA (or whoever) had actions outside of Ireland - such as the Oxford Street bomb in McDonalds - they were covered fully and considerately.

Media coverage of everything has changed a great deal since the 1970's. Then you had the BBC, the ITN and some American channel if it was overseas, available to you, when they chose to broadcast it. Now, you have 24 hour coverage over something like 95% of the globe which you can access whenever you want to. Technology has improved so much that you can report on things as they happen. Images are shown now all day now, that even 10 years ago, would not have been shown before 9.00pm.

The media coverage given in Britain, to Thursdays' explosions was no greater, and a good deal less than that given to the World Trade Centre/Twin Towers destruction. I can't answer for other countries, but in Britain it was on 2 main channels, plus BBC News 24. There were other channels to watch and the radio stations continued to broadcast near normal programmes. Yesterday, although it was still a main topic, it was not dominating the whole bulletin.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: My guru always said
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:35 AM

I put my hands up to being naive. However much I read, hear, see or learn, I admit I don't have any understanding how any person can harm another living thing. Understanding should make a difference in this world as we learn from the lessons we create, but I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.

My thoughts are with all those affected by this tragic day in London and candles are lit in hope! So glad to hear that so many local Catters are safe, many thanks for all your efforts to keep us informed Liz.

Hil


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM

for the most of thursday, the BBC, ITV, SKY NEWS, all they talked about from approx 12pm till Friday morning was the London bombings.

So somehow it dominate the news, as Tam the bam says what about the 3 thousand people that were killed in Northern Ireland or the soldiers and civilans that are dying in Iraq, the news has/had quickly forgot about them.

So sad about the London bombings but don't forget about the wars and past wars all over the world.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 08:20 AM

I remember blanket coverage of both Manchester and Warrington, although at that point the media weren't quite so 'in your face' as has been the case since 9.11.

There was also the major attrocity on 15 August 1998 in Omagh, that was given blanket coverage by the media. Brits were always aware that sectarian murders were taking place in NI on a regular basis, but it takes a major disaster to hit the news in a big way.

I don't think that this latest event has been given extra publicity because it is London, although London is a high profile city, as is New York. The media are just reacting to the public appetite for disaster, probably fostered by 9.11 and the tsunami last year.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

There's a silly season out there, too


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

I'm glad no Mudcatters were directly affected by the London attacks, but obviously there are now many people whose world was shattered by them.

The attacks were not only vicious and completely unjustified, but, as several posters have already noted, they will not even have the effect the terrorists wanted.

These terrorists don't even think--they should know that attacks on civilians do nothing but bond those civilians together more tightly in opposition to the attackers and their cause---as well as energizing the country's military to carry on the struggle. Historically that has virtually always been the case, the only recent exception being the Spanish railway attack, which was vastly different, for the reasons McGrath has cited.

I heard an extensive interview with a leader of the Moslem community in the UK on Thursday evening. He said that he and every other Moslem leader in the UK condemns all terrorism, and these attacks specifically. The more Moslem leaders make this sort of statement the better.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM

An Australian journalist learnt this poem from his father, who learnt it while serving with the AIF in World War II. It is titled London Under Bombardment. It begins:

I, who am known as London, have faced stern times before, Having fought and ruled and traded for a thousand years and more; I knew the Roman legions and the harsh-voiced Danish hordes; I heard the Saxon rebels, saw blood on the Norman swords.

But, though I am scarred by battle, my grim defenders vow, Never was I so stately nor so well-beloved as now.

And it finishes:

The bombs have shattered my churches, have torn my streets apart, But they have not bent my spirit and they shall not break my heart.

For my people's faith and courage are lights of London town, Which still would shine in legends though my last broad bridge were down.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM

Just trying to clarify things, sapper82. However, I think this statement by you is incorrect...

a substantial part of the initial rise of Islamic Fundamentalism was due to that invasion

By the time the US was no longer using the Mujahideen as proxy fighters, Afghanistan had been virtually destroyed. The country was in total chaos. The US government at that time did not see fit to stick around and help the people who had helped them. The US government abandoned the people of Afghanistan when they were most in need of help.

The Taliban arose as a solution to the total chaos. They were composed of former members of the Mujahideen, who now had no war to fight. They were mostly young men whose life experiences consisted almost entirely of warfare, and their sense of order and right and wrong was very warped by their wartime experiences. This accounts for quite a lot of their violent extremist practices. They created order and some degree of stability in Afghanistan. During that period, the US govenment endorsed the Taliban, and may even have given them some assistance.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:34 PM

I've been following this story off and on since Thursday. First let me offer my condolences to the families of the dead and to the injured and their families.

Actions like this are why the war on terrorism must be won. I am no fan of George Bush but I am even less of a fan of those who war against civilians. London, We stand with you in this time of crisis. Neil


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

As the little boy with the black eye said "It all started when he hit me back."


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM

I read somewhere that this problem between Christians and Muslims goes back to the Crusades in 1099 when the forces of Richard the Lionheart butchered 50,000 men, women and children in cold blood. Yet, we now blame the Muslims for starting it.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Mohammed Mac Donald
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM

I also love the way people in authority say "We will not be intimidated", and the like.

Be intimidated into doing what, I wonder?
Bringing justice to the peoples' of Palestine?
(as Bin Laden clearly pointed to as being the thinking behind 9/11)

Why should we need to be intimidated into serving justice?
I thought that was what Freedom and Democracy was all about.

Justice.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

If you love someone don't go out the door without telling them, you may never come back through it to let them know.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:39 PM

"I am no fan of George Bush but I am even less of a fan of those who war against civilians."

George Bush and Tony Blair have killed far more civilians than these terrorists ever have, including those of Septemnber 11th, let alone July 7th.

The military doctrine "Shock and Awe" is explicitly aimed at defeating and demoralising an enemy by means of an onslaght ionvolving high tech terrorism - a war against civilians. In the case of Iraq, in a country which, however unpleasant its regime, had at no time carried out any kind of military action against the USA or the UK, including the activities of Al Qaeda.

Seeking to justifying terrorism and atrocities by pointing at what the people you are fighting against might have done is one characteristic which is shared by the apologists of both sides. And, of course, by the people who actually carry out and direct the atrocities, whether on underground trains or in military command centres.
.......

I think that assuming that the bombers this week have any expectation of getting the UK to withdraw troops from Iraq is not reading their intentions correctly. I would think it more likely that those directing these activities would actually prefer to see the troops stay there, and continue to help strengthen the Al Qaeda ideology by their presence.

The other useful effect to be hoped for would be to generate discord between Muslims and non-Muslims on the streets of London and other cities, and to build support for groups like the BNP. Think in terms of chess, not football.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: heric
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM

Here is an interesting project which includes an effort to translate foreign language blogs and assenble the results under subject category. It seems to require a LOT more work, but it is a wonderful idea.

Global Voices Online

("Muslim Blogosphere Reacts to London Blast")

(At present, the "Muslim blogosphere" seems to consist of less than ten blogs, all composed in English. But if the translators get to work. . . .)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Thanks for finding that, heric. It's a fascinating website. I think I'll be spending a fair amnount of time there, especially when the Mudcat is down...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

so there are 2 of you....Tam the Man and Tam the Bam........

excuse me, if I have got you two confused with each other in the past.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Interested
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_9_11_02fd.html

London Muslims "Celebrate" 9/11
Jihadist mullahs urge 1,000 followers to learn the murderous lessons of the WTC attack. | 11 September 2002

An obscene spectacle took place in North London earlier today. A thousand Muslims gathered at the Finsbury Park mosque to "celebrate" the bombing of the World Trade Center. The Metropolitan Police deployed a force 500 strong to protect the meeting, called "A Towering Day in History," from disruption.

A dozen or so menacing-looking men with kaffiyehs over their faces stood on the mosque's steps to prevent unfriendly journalists from entering.

The "celebration" began promptly at 1 PM, so that participants could applaud the action of the WTC bombers at exactly 1:46 London time—the exact time, a year earlier, when the first plane hit its target in New York. Chairing the meeting was Abu Hamza, an Egyptian-born engineer turned Muslim mullah, who presides over the notorious Finsbury Park mosque, where several of the detainees in Camp Delta, Guantanamo Bay, captured fighting for the Taliban and al-Qaida, received their theological training. Hamza also reportedly recruited to the jihad Richard Reid, the would-be shoe-bomber who failed to blow up an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami on December 22, 2001. The good Imam is implicated as well in the training and instigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, under arrest on suspicion of conspiring with the 19 murderers of September 11.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM

"It is the rantings of a lunatic like dianavan that Martin Gibson threw in the towel..."

Thank-you, I take that as a compliment.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 05:48 PM

Saturday Morning Scott Simon on NPR aired the Noel Coward song quoted above, and I do believe I recognized Sir Noel's voice as the singer.

There'll always be an England, and I mean that in a good way.

Regarding McGrath's clearly written response to my post re: the distinction between the Spanish people's reaction to the Madrid train bombings, and the English people's reaction, I believe that the details of his response are correct, but the point is missed:
Before the actual election, the truth came out that the bombings were the result of Arab terrorists, not Eta terrorists (so far as is known). The Spanish public thus had a chance to respond to Arab terrorism or the poor positioning of their own government. Since as McGrath correctly states, the opposition had stated that it would withdraw from the Coalition forces in Iraq, the Spanish public made the choice, as a response to overt terrorism, to vote for a party which they knew would withdraw. Whether this was primarilly out of reaction to the bombings, or a reaction to perceived governmental propaganda, it is sign of where their priorities lay.

Regarding Dianavan's laying the education and behavior of Osama Bin Laden at the doorstep of the United States, it is interesting to note that no one is laying anything to the doorstep of the Soviet Union, which tried to control its neighbor by political means, then by overt military means, thus spawning the most recent incarnation of mujahideen, who are by no means a new institution. Osama was at first a bankroller, then an outright combatant, and, finally, both of those and a leader besides. He has shown a gift for thinking ahead, charisma, planning, and a commitment to extremist ideals of his faith as he perceives it. One could liken him to an Islamic excursion of John Brown. The United States did not create him at all, and he certainly did not need funding, coming from one of the wealthiest families in the world. If he found a way to utilize anti-Soviet American aide, he certainly used it, along with a lot of other mujahideen.

Getting back to poor Afghanistan, the outcome of the Soviet Union's meddling with the government was to spawn a divided land of warlords, the Northern Alliance, and the Taliban. None of them were what we Westerners would call 'enlightened'. The Northern Alliance was undisciplined and committed what we would call 'war crimes' when they occupied territory. The Taliban was disciplined by comparison, less corrupt, and committed what we would think of as war crimes but they would call Islamic Law (which they got to define).

If you want an interesting insight into the era, the book "Kite-Runner" is set in that time and place.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

The US may not have funded him, but we did train him. Along with other people we used in Afghanistan as proxy fighters. They learned a lot of their tactics from the US. In that sense we did create him.

And you're right... the Soviet Union (which no longer exists, as we all know) was also responsible for what happened in Afghanistan. But the US (as the "winner" of the cold war), had an opportunity to help the people of Afghanistan when we were finished using the Mujahideen as our proxy fighters, and we did not. The Taliban filled a void that the US could have helped to fill in a way that would have been much better for Afghanistan and the world, but chose not to. The Soviet Union no longer exists, but we are still here, reaping what we have sown.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 06:17 PM

Do we have to have this discussion on this thread?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

Regretably, Jacqui, the same half-a-dozen or so people can always be counted upon to hijack any remotely related thread so that they can beat their particular drums yet again.

The BBC news is now talking about the desparate efforts being made in London to locate loved ones...at least one of whom is a devout Muslem...who have been missing since the blast. I can only hope that they are all found safe, in hospital, but I know that this isn't likely. Like all sane people, my thoughts go out to all of them, their families and their loved ones.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

Travelled through London today, coming back from the Hampton Court flower show. The tubes and overheads were all subject to delay (at least the ones I used) due to 'security alerts'. But got there and back in the end.

Lots of extra police around the stations, all wearing those bright neon yellow vests, so very visibly visible, don't think they always used to wear them.

Less people milling about and a hushed vibe, but other than that business as usual. If not a little friendlier. Got chatting to a couple visiting from Boston and another from S.Africa, all extolling the virtues of London, but shocked that they hadn't been asked to have their bags checked by any security people.

I didn't really feel any more apprehensive than normal whilst standing in a London station, I was brought up in the 70's expecting the bins to bang at any moment.

But was hurtling along on the tube, and one of those flashes occurred, like they often do, very bright sparks coming off the tracks and lit up the side of the window where I was leaning my head, and it gave me a real jolt.

There are apparently bodies in the tunnel, as structurally it is unsafe to remove them, or get close enough to them yet. There families must be out of their minds with worry.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 05 - 10:39 PM

There's no way of eliminating all the dangers, but it is possible to reduce them.

And one thing that would make a hell of a lot of sense would be to bring back conductors on the buses, which would make it much easier to do something effective in face of a passenger acting suspiciously. (And bringing back conductors, for quite other reasons, was one of Ken Livingston's election pledges when he ran for mayor.)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 12:59 AM

I see this thread, which was intended to provide news on our brothers and sisters in London, has degenrated into finger pointing and name calling. The trolls and flamers have unleashed their weapons and are using them to try to get a rise out of the rest of us. And, by and large, they are successful.

When we feel the pain of all terrorist bombings, whether they are in New York, London, Bagdad, Kabul, South America, Africa, Asia, no matter where, when we feel the pain and respond with kindness and healing then we will have taken the first step to setting the terrorists back in their place.

The authorities will hunt down the particular guilty parties. It is not our place to seek vengeance. All we need is justice.

Those people who celebrate the bombings are not guilty of the bombings. They must feel they have reason to react like that. It is not our place to condemn them for dancing but to ask the hard questions. Why do they feel joy at the death and destruction in London? What is it that justifies such a reaction? Once we find that reason we can fight terrorism with the one weapon they cannot stand against, education and tolerance. This is what makes a civilization great. Wars and bloodshed have been the traditional way of handling international difficulties but this is not the same thing. these are people who feel they have been wronged. We need to go out among them and ask them why they feel anger. Then we can find the cause of terrorism and end it for good.

One other hard question is how many people were dancing? The media can make a small group look like a huge crowd. Always remember the purpose of commercial media is to sell soap, not tell the truth.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Pauline L
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 02:03 AM

I am so glad to hear from the Mudcatters in London who are alive and well. My sympathy goes to everyone who has been directly affected and to their friends and families. Many, many more people have been indirectly affected. Many people now live with fear. It must be even worse for people living in war zones, who live with this fear every day.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:34 AM

Naemanson wrote:
"Those people who celebrate the bombings are not guilty of the bombings. They must feel they have reason to react like that. It is not our place to condemn them for dancing but to ask the hard questions. Why do they feel joy at the death and destruction in London?" end quote.

What bollocks! They must have reason to feel like that? It is not our place to condemn them for dancing to celebrate the bombings? Why do theyt feel joy?

You are either one seriously disturbed individual or a left-wing crackpot.

There is NO excuse for dancing in celebration at the bombings of innocent people from ALL backgrounds!

I said this before, and i will say it again, instead of using this thread to discuss muslim intolerance, why not move the debate to muslim intolerance thread, and leave this thread for its original purpose.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:36 AM

Please don't hijack this thread, stick to the topic or open another one if you wish to vent your spleens


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 05:39 AM

Or even better why not stop jumping to conclusions or chewing on unsubstantiated statements, and wait a bit

...for the rest of the bodies to be brought up
...for the investigators to sift through the evidence
...for the culrpits to be identified.

Anybody celebrating at the misery of others is no different than anyone who tries to profit from such misery, either financially (certain London hoteliers) or politically. They are all callous pieces of shit.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:58 AM

What about the bomb scare in Brimingham (spelling) England, on the
BBC it was a quick there was a bomb scare in Birimingham, and now here's the weather.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

It proved to be nothing - though police said the information on which they were acting posed a "credible threat". 20,000 people evacuated from the city centre last night, all very orderly and proper, but no bomb as such.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

So that makes it all right then ach it just a city or town in north of London and it doesn't matter if there was a bomb or not, it was still a quick news item and then goodnight, so it was still a threat.

Just typical, London is always the main news and to hang with the rest.

50 plus people died in London and it was on the news thursday/friday/saturday and Sunday. and yet there were 3 thousand people killed in Northern Ireland and so many hundred killed in Iraq, and it's a quick news item and goodnight.

Which to me isn't fair.

You did not give a shit about them.

Look I'm sorry but London got bombed, but they didn't lose 3 thousand men women and children.

Let bygones be bygones and we'll agree to disagree.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

Understand Tam; and I know that you don't mean to imply anything derogatory. But it's a fact of life that news coverage of such events is not proportional to the number of victims; neither should it be. In the case of London the interest is higher because it is the centre for most of the country's financial institutions; and it is also the capital. I don't think there would have been significantly more or less fuss made by the media whether there had been 200 or only 5 victims. So, fair or unfair, it's just a fact of life that London commands more attention than Birmingham or Glasgow.

But grief, and surprise, and anger, and any other feelings generated by such events (both in the UK and in other countries) are not measured by wordage either. There are 'Catters who have not posted anything on this - or on the Iraq threads, or the 9/11 ones. This does not mean that they do not care. The media play their game, here as in every country; but we are not sheep either.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM

Tam - don't you remeber the coverage that Warrington got? It was, quite rightly, all over the news for days, as was Omagh.

It is always the way that the killing of one or two gets little coverage, yet the killing of numbers, whether from bombs, train wrecks or natural disasters commands more attention.

The feeling that I have is that I want to do something to help those who have suffered this time, in the same way as I felt sympathy and a need to help after the tsunami and 9.11. Right now laying blame doesn't come into the equation - people have suffered and, whether it be one or one thousand, I wish that I could do something to help.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:33 PM

Here's one other thought. Al Qaida may have screwed the poor of the world (specifically Africa). Due the protests, high profile protesters, and the publicity the G8 countries were almost ready to put the subject of poverty on the table for discussion (they might not have actually done anything, but that might have talked about it was progress of a sort). With the London bomings they were then freed up , politically speaking, to discuss terrorism (which is the only thing any of them WANTED to talk about anyway).

Stephen Lee


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: NormanD
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:47 PM

Just checking in three days after the bombings. I rarely travel into central London, but did so on Thursday, at that time. On a ThamesLink train passing through KX. A major day of anxiety, fear, answering frantic texts as to my whereabouts and a difficult journey home. But at least I got home.

So I read the Mudcat. We've got the usual American (I assume) fundamentalists attacking Islam and calling all their critics douchebags, etc. We've got the usual fascists quoting Herr Nick Griffin, as opportunist as ever. We've got lengthy quotes from stupid Noel Coward songs, well-meaning but patronising.

People are still unaccounted for, unknown bodies are beginning to rot in the subway tunnels, people are still pretty much in shock. Monday will be an awful day for commuters. People will travel as usual, and resume work, not because they're plucky or defiant or standing up to the terrorists, but because they have little choice in the matter. If you don't go to work, you don't get paid. We're just the foot soldiers in other people's wars.

We don't know who planted the bombs, it could be any one of the various rival Islamic sects, it could be a mad fascist (remember the Soho bombings, BNP apologists?), who knows.

All I will say is: a terrorist is a person who has a bomb, but does not have an airforce.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:52 PM

A bomb scare is not the same as a bomb explosion. Even if, because of the circunstances of the time, it gets treated seriously enough to close down a city centre.

I think it can be pretty safely said that if, God forbid, something like last Thursday happened elsewhere in the UK, it would get the same level of attention from the media.

As El Greko says "news values" do affect how tragedies in distant places are handled, and that can be oddly out of balance, but it's a reflection of what the media believe their readers or viewers are likely to be concerned about, rather than a conspiracy to distort public opinion. And the nature of coverage is also affected by such things as as where the reporters actually are when it happens - for example, in this case, commuting to work on the Underground or bus.

.............
And don't anyone be taken in by talk about people in mosques rejoicing at last week's events by people who would appear to be trying to stir up hate. "It is an evil that cannot be justified and that we utterly condemn and reject," is how Sheikh Dr Zaki Badawi, of the Council of Mosques and Imams put it; and there is clearly a great deal of anger among Muslims in this country at the killers, more especially since the victims included an unknown number of Muslims.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

The article that references people dancing was from the 9/11 attacks in 2002, not from the recent bombings in London.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 07:21 PM

Excuse me... 2001


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:34 AM

I was wondering why I hadn't seen any pictures of dancing Londoners .... I think someone owes me an apology from the 'Face of 9/11' thread.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:09 AM

Sorry, it wasn't the 'Face of 9/11' thread, it was in this one... Guest of 8/7, 6.03pm..... Waiting for your apology.

I shan't be holding my breath.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:26 AM

There is an uncanny resemblance to the Irish-American Clan-na-Gael attacks on tube stations in 1880s.
I lived in Birmingham when bombs were goingoff, I worked in Regent's Park when the bandstand was bombed (but I was in central London that day) and when the Old Bailey bomb went off I could see the smoke from my ofice in New Cross. I've been lucky and I no longer have to travel into the city but like everyone else I still will when I want to. Attacks on "soft" targets like this may be easy for the bombers but don't advance whatever twisted cause they have one iota. G8 goes on, Olympics go on, the allies still try to bring normality back to Iraq (I din't support that war but I do support the reconstruction which the bombers now target).


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM

Bloody hell, Roger you're gettingt on a bit!
Is this the Clan-na-Gael that used to be such lovely dancers?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:45 AM

That's rich coming from someone who hits half a century in less than 12 months......

LTS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM

Just got an e-mail from my son saying he's alive and well (I'm not sure where, but that's ok).


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

If only

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/Misc/kaboom.wmv


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

Glad to hear that Carol.
That was a bit of a wait for you...
Good to know He is safe
Best Wishes
Jude


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM

Donuel -

Is that a real VW ad?

If so, its in extremely poor taste. I mean its O.K. to display something like this on a forum but I hope it isn't on t.v.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:50 PM

I have seen this one before but I'm not sure that it was ever put out on TV.

I think that it would appeal to the British sense of humour though. I reckoned it was pretty good.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

Any stuff like that would never get past the censors (British Board of advertising control). High bandwidth connections have allowed creative advertisers to get to us without interference, and hopefully forward it to people.

And you're right. Very British indeed.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

Bunninabrain is right, here are other internet car commercials.

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert1.wmv

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert2.mpg

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert3.wmv

http://ebay.thehybrid.net/eBay/ParkingExpert4.mpg

, sorry for the drift.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:34 PM

Anyhow, still would like a pointer to some valid way to help injured and stricken victims of the London bombimgs.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM

developing story...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:26 PM

Robomatic, you could try this. They seem to take world pay so I guess can take donations from overseas.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:41 PM

Police have just announced that they are sure all four bombers died in the explosions. The death of one of them led police to raid addresses in W.Yorks. An arrest has been made and articles seized. They believe all four bombers are British born.

The BNP (the party of choice of our resident bigot) have been slammed by all parties for producing an election leaflet, showing photos of the bus bomb.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

New rumor of terrorist London bombers being shot.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10334992


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:52 PM

A reporter actually asked the police at a press conference the afternoon of the bombings, to confirm if police had shot dead a bomber and the police denied any knowledge of that happening.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM

Excuse the duplication if someone has already mentioned this here, but there's a survivor's diary on the BBC website that is utterly compelling reading. A very fine and brave young woman. It's at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4670099.stm

(Scroll down to start with the earliest message)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

Yes I remember Warrington and Brighton, however we can go on forever.

Tam


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

The bombers were MUSLIMS! That has now been established with the news tonight.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:18 PM

Tam - the point is that they were OUTSIDE London and got the same sort of coverage.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

Mr. Interested, do you only care about people getting killed by bombs when the bombers are Muslims? Couldn't give a shit about anybody killed by bombers who aren't Muslims, right? The important thing about the bombers is NOT that they are Muslims. The important thing about the bombers is that they were BOMBERS.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,interested
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

i have read post after post on here saying that nobody knows if they were muslims, when clearly they were!

I'm simply bringing this section of the debate to close, they WERE muslims.

Does it matter they were muslims? So your saying the police should ingore the avenue of religious fanatacism in their enquiries? They should ignore muslims at finsbury mosque declaring jihad on western peoples calling for murder? They should ignore televised muslims celebrating the attack in London?

You think all this should be ignored for the greater good of 'tolerance'?

As for me only caring about bombers when the bombers is a load of crap, i care about this issue now because we have just seen many many people slaughtered by fantatics. What do you want me to do? As we all discuss the london bombings and the bomb scares now escalating around the UK you want me to discuss a petrol bomb in Yemen?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM

I bet you have been and are celebrating the bombings yourself, GUEST,interested, because you see them as the perfect opportunity to help you spread your message of hate.

I bet you yourself danced upon hearing the news and gave thanks for the deaths of innocent people so you could continue to spread your filthy message of hate.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM

Guest Interested - Its time to stop blaming Muslims for the acts of a fanatical few. Call them terrorists or Jihadists if you must but don't call them Muslims. Muslims have repeatedly denounced terrorist acts. Most Muslims are not terrorists. Thats like saying all Christians are responsible for the acts of Christians in the KKK and that all Christians are racists.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:43 PM

Carol, Mr Interested answered your questions, why not answer his/hers?

To accuse someone of dancing after the terrorist attacks is to be honest, well sick.

We certainly differ in opinions, but on other threads relating to muslim intolerance, you have always been fair, but to accuse someone of that is simply not right.

I agree, most Muslims are NOT terrorists, but you can't expect the police not to investigate the points interested raised. it would not make sense.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM

Suicide bombing is rather unusual, in that you can select your target remarkably accurately. I can understand the motivation of the kamikaze pilot very easily: you are going for the enemy you have selected as heroically as you can. Likewise anyone in Palestine going for the Israeli army checkpoint, or whatever.
We are asked to believe by many posters here that the bombers are acting out of hostility to Blair and the British army going into Iraq. You would think, if this was actually the case, that the bombers would have a go at political or military targets, of which there are are huge selection of readily attackable people, or installations, in England. But these bombs have been directed at extremely ordinary people in tubes and a bus on the way to work. This doesnt seem to me to be someone specifically protesting about the British ploical/military establishment. This sounds< I'm afraid, like some stupid gullible kids seduced into ultimate stupidity by some convincing older man offering adolescents a specious paradise in return for their "heroic deeds". I have worked with a lot of young Muslim kids over the last few years, and I know the kind of rubbish that is told to some of them. All we can hope is that a bit more education will eventually make the young a little more sceptical about what they are told by their elders and betters.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

Celebrating Death by Violence caused by either by so called terrorists or by Military means is repulsive. It would also be equally repulsive, if say, a Political Party used the London Bombings as a tool they hoped would further their Campaign. Hopefully there are no legitimate Political Parties in the UK that would stoop that low!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Using the London bombings, especially in this thread, as a tool for promoting a political agenda is, well, sick, Mr. Hannam. And that is what GUEST,interested is doing. That sort of behavior deserves to be pointed out.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM

Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain said they had received the news from the police with "anguish, shock and horror".


He said: "It appears our youth have been involved in last week's horrific bombings against innocent people.

"While the police investigation continues we reiterate our absolute commitment and resolve to helping the police bring to justice all involved in this crime of mass murder. Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers."


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:28 PM

greg stephens has made the point. It is not that they 'happened' to be Muslims, but that extremists are USING religion to inflame young people .The fact is, when their religion IS a major component of their drive to do harm to innocent people, it is no longer irrelevant.

I am quite aware that most Muslims would not do this, and that moderate clerics have condemned the violence...but extremist clerics are exacerbating the problem and using impressionable young people to further complex political/religious ends!

One further point...there has been cruelty and violence perpetrated in the name of other religions also, including Christianity, but Islam seems to have this concept, whether these extremists are interpreting it correctly or not, of 'immediate access to Paradise' for dying while fighting for the 'cause'. You get violent folks in many religions, but the idea of using suicide to destroy the enemy is NOT a common factor in all religions.

Now...before you flame me for seeming to just blindly agree with 'interested', READ my points over again, and note why I say what I do.....


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM

Greg - that should be 'elders and SUPPOSED betters'.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:55 PM

People professing certain branches of Christianity have certainly perpetrated what would today be considered heinous acts of infamy. Sometimes these people were Popes and Kings and Queens. No Popes and Kings and Queens of the recent past would dream of thinking or doing these things in the current era.

Islam is a much younger religion than Christianity. Islam has not gone through a Reformation or Enlightenment period.

As people, Muslims are NO DIFFERENT from us or anyone. As an institution, Islam is in a different time zone, psychology, and acting off a different game plan than the rest of the West (and most of the East).

This would come to a head at some time, and in our case it is the twin drives of the need to relate economically with the Muslim world over oil, and the technological changes wrought to the world making it impossible for Muslims to escape being bombarded by media pleasant, unpleasant, and downright obscene. They are being dragged into modernity kicking and screaming, and on one level, who can blame them? On another level, we are seeing a relation of belief to superstition and the use of religion as a power device that we ourselves are not totally free from.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:00 PM

There is a big difference between discussing (and even condemning) the way extremist Muslims address what they see as injustices, and using the London bombings as an excuse to whip up hatred towards Muslims generally, Bill. I'm sure you can understand the difference. A careful look at all of Guest,interested posts show that they fall into the latter category.

But the reality is that until legitimate grievances that Muslims and Muslim countries have about the way they are being treated by the West are addressed in a constructive way by all sides in question, the problem of terrorism will not go away. Killing more of them just creates more of them.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:12 PM

Islam forbids killing.

A person cannot be a Muslim and a murderer. It's one or the other.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:21 PM

award for the most niave mudcatter post to date goes to Leeneia


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 03:33 AM

By a weird coincidence I'm currently re-reading the "Cribb" Victorian detective series by Peter Lovesey including Invitation to a Dynamite Party based on the real 1884-6 bombing campaign by the Irish-American Clan-na-Gael. Many of the same stations were targeted then.

RtS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 03:46 AM

Leenia: I really dont think you have the right to decide who is and who is not a Muslim, according to some criterion of your own. As a general rule of thumb, if someone tells me they are a Muslim, I reckon they are Muslim. If someone claims to be an atheist, I reckon they are atheist. Of course, they may be lying, but in generaL I think we can define our own religions. You seem to be saying that a sinner cant belong to a religion. That is not a generally held belief, I think you are in a minority there.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 03:56 AM

Sorry to post twice on the same subject I didn't think the first one got thropugh and after I got the "site unobtainable" message didn't think it was worth repeating, except the parallels with the 1880s.

RtS


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:32 AM

I've just reread your post Roger. When you mentioned tube bombings I thought you had got the dates mixed up which is why I made the comment about your age. I don't think the tubes existed in the 1880's - it was just cut and cover. I seem to remember reading about a pub called the 3 Nuns being bombed. For many years you could see an advertisement for the 3 Nuns from Aldgate station and may still be able to for all I know.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:52 PM

All i was saying Carol before you bit my head off, was that Mr Intersted answered your questions, why not answer his?

I was also saying that to accuse him/her of celebrating the bombings is sick, and no it is not the 'sick' as him using this thread to promote hatred because he hasn't spread hatred. All he did was inform us on here that it was confirmed that the bombers were muslim.

i will paste his questions for you to choose to answer again below:


"Does it matter they were muslims? So your saying the police should ingore the avenue of religious fanatacism in their enquiries? They should ignore muslims at finsbury mosque declaring jihad on western peoples calling for murder? They should ignore televised muslims celebrating the attack in London?

You think all this should be ignored for the greater good of 'tolerance'?

As for me only caring about bombers when the bombers is a load of crap, i care about this issue now because we have just seen many many people slaughtered by fantatics. What do you want me to do? As we all discuss the london bombings and the bomb scares now escalating around the UK you want me to discuss a petrol bomb in Yemen?"


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

What do you want me to do?

Why not come to London for the weekend and celebrate our wonderful diversity at the renamed 'London United' festival at Burgess Park. You can be part of the majority of people who abhor the bombings and recognise that they were carried out by a minority of fanatics.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:03 PM

Islam has not gone through a Reformation...

Not actually true - the bombers have their roots in an extremist reformist version of Islam, rather analogous to some of the weirder types of reformists within Christianity. The Taliban regime for example had many familiar elements of some aspects of our own reformation - extreme puritan restrictions on dress and music, destruction of statues...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

i hope mr interested and hannam die a horrible death


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:07 PM

Guest 12th July 4.48pm.
I,m afraid your hopes are in vain, Mr Blair has already started using the bombings as a tool to get himself and his cabinet off the hook.

It should be obvious to anyone with a brain that the London bombings and Iraq are very closly linked.
The sad mad young people who carried out the bombings were responding to what they saw as an attack on Islam by their own Government.

As Mr Blairs wife has already said, "There must be something very wrong, when these young people are prepared to kill themselves for their ideals"

She was of course referring to the Palistinian bombers, but her words could just as easily apply to the young people from Leeds.

Blair wriggles and twists ,and tries to block debate, but people like George Galloway are unafraid of the boot licking media, and George will quite rightly keep pushing the truth in Blair's face until he can no longer deny his guilt.

Blair and his cabinet have the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqis on their hands, and no matter how they lie and use weasel words the people who marched in their millions against the war will never forgive them.....Ake


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM

"Does it matter they were muslims? So your saying the police should ingore the avenue of religious fanatacism in their enquiries?

Please show me where I have said that. I think the police should investigate every avenue they deem appropriate. But we are not the police.

They should ignore muslims at finsbury mosque declaring jihad on western peoples calling for murder? They should ignore televised muslims celebrating the attack in London?

This is where you and your lieutenant the GUEST lost me completely. The two of you have posted articles about things that happened after the 9/11 bombings in the US, and pretended that they just now happened, in London, in response to the London bombings. I don't trust people who lie to me and try to otherwise mislead me. I don't see any reason to believe your assertion that there were televised incidents of Muslims celebrating the bombings in London unless I hear it from someone besides you and your henchmen. Others on this thread have said they did not see these things.

However, even if they did, you still can't hold all Muslims responsible for the acts of a few. Otherwise it would be correspondingly appropriate to hold you personally responsible for every act of violence committed against Muslims by people who are not Muslim.

You think all this should be ignored for the greater good of 'tolerance'?

Of course not. I think it should be put into the proper context, along with all of the hideous things that are done by people who are not Muslims, and dealt with accordingly.

And what I think you should do is to criticize all violent behavior, whether it is committed by Muslims against non-Muslims, or by non-Muslims against Muslims. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite and a hate-monger.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,123 what are they fighting for?
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM

It isn't only Blair using the Bombings for Political gain.
The ever attractive multi racial, oops sorry wrong Party, the ever vigilant bigoted opportunists that call themselves the BNP were all over this tragedy like a rash! and this forum it would seem!
Griffin...the spokeman for the BNP make a long, stupid, unbelievable statement the other day...this group of dangerous idiots just get worse and worse, even laughable at times if they weren't so bloody dangerous.

" The Islamification of Britain can and must be stopped by political and then legal changes. And the same methods must be used to reverse it.

Britain and the West will be free and Western, or they will be an endless bloodbath. Today's horrific events have shown that, in the end, whatever propaganda the BBC produces over the days ahead, that is the only choice we have to make."

Nick Griffin
Chairman, British National Party

Sorry Griffin your vision for Britian is not appealing to a vast number of Brits.
Now go do something worthwhile BNP trash.
Like give Blood....but tell the Red Cross that it is tainted and not to give it to any normal people, no matter what the circumstances are.
I personally cannot think of anything more repulsive than having Griffin or his fellow Racists blood flowing in my veins.

Great "campaign" election leaflet BNP. It is sure to bring you in a least one more vote next time round. Now tell us your not exploiting this Tragedy to attempt to further your message of hate. No on second thoughts don't bother.
You bigoted bastards talk so much shite. It is truly amazing what comes out your filthy mouths and how little there is in your bigoted empty heads.
You are amoral and dillusional.
Your "so called" Political Party makes a very large majority of the British people, (Muslim, Christian, Jew, Pagan, Buddists, Aethists and many others ) absolutely disgusted.
So why not take your minority rants and shove them up your Arses, you know where that is, it's the place were your heads are stuck! and stop using a Music Forum to spread your idiotic rhetoric.
I mean how desperate is your need for support...it would seem to be very desperate if this is where you come to drum up business.
I have a strong feeling you aren't quite managing that.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:08 PM

McGrath thanks for your post indicating that the Muslim world, at least in part, has seen some sort of Reformation. The samples you cite are much more recent than the much more widespread events of the Christian Reformation, which corresponds to my observation that Islam is a much 'younger' religion than Christianity.

By your lack of a citation, I take it that you do not disagree that Islam has no correspondence to what we term the Enlightenment.

I am making the argument that religions, along with nations, artistic periods, political movements and clothing fads, go through developmental stages.

Sometimes we may have cases of arrested development.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

guest 123 is a brave individual. Coming on here a politically left forum to expouse leftist militiant tendencies to a leftist audience.

guest 123 we are in awe. i mean aside from the one bnp member i know of in here how many bnp members do u think are going to read your post?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

By a weird coincidence I'm currently re-reading the "Cribb" Victorian detective series by Peter Lovesey including Invitation to a Dynamite Party based on the real 1884-6 bombing campaign by the Irish-American Clan-na-Gael. Many of the same stations were targeted then.


Not so much of a coincidence. The bombers very carefully hit key nodes in the network to cause maximum long term disruption as well as loss of life. In the 1880s hitting Edgeware Road and Aldgate junctions would have had the same impact on the overall system as today. Anybody with a basic knowledge of railway geography would spot that.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,123
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

Guest 06:09 PM
Rich coming from yourself.
I would rather one BNP member out than in here.
Support ...read the replies..there is more than one Bigot here.
As to my bravery well you know shit all about me.
So how do you fight racism in the UK ?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:26 PM

one bnp member out? WHat are you on about?

guest123, i don't like the bnp but it is useless attacking em like that on here, because there aint any on here, except one.

All we are saying is, your emotional anti-bnp post seems more like the shoutings of a person living behind his computer attacking bnp on safe forums thats all. no offence


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM

Carol ...I've been watching UK news regularly, and have heard nothing of Muslims celebrating the London bombings, quite the reverse , all Muslims whom I have seen interviewed, are at pains to disassociate themselves and their religion from the atrocities.

You are right to mistrust people who distort the truth.
I have much the same feelings about our Prime Minister....Ake


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:35 PM

Carol Wrote:
"However, even if they did, you still can't hold all Muslims responsible for the acts of a few. Otherwise it would be correspondingly appropriate to hold you personally responsible for every act of violence committed against Muslims by people who are not Muslim". end quote:

I agree Carol, of course not ALL muslims can be blamed for the acts of a few muslims. I think a lot of peoples worry i talk to is that will this set a precedent for young muslims who are perhaps lost in the UK, i mean lost as in without feeling they belong anymore, and young muslims could be persuaded by extremists to join ranks.

Also, there are estimated 2million muslims in the UK, it means that even if just one percent of that 2 million are extremist in sentiment, that means 1000 muslims are expressing militant tendencies against the UK, which is worrying.

One of the most worrying aspects of this attack on London has been the mindless white yobs who have now taken it upon themselves to go and attack sikh temples believing them to be muslim mosques. I presume these yobs saw a darker colour and that was enough for them to act. It is sad.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:49 PM

One of the most worrying aspects of this attack on London has been the mindless white yobs who have now taken it upon themselves to go and attack sikh temples believing them to be muslim mosques.

It is just as troubling when they attack Muslim mosques as it is when they attack Sikh temples. And they are attacking Muslim mosques.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

The evidence he collected includes one BNP member, Steve Barkham, confessing to a violent assault on an Asian man, and a prospective election candidate admitting to a campaign of pushing dog excrement through the front door of an Asian takeaway.

Another man is seen saying that he wants to kill Asians and attack mosques. Activists are filmed plotting to fire bomb a van being used by to distribute anti-BNP literature.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:59 PM

Islam is a "younger" religion...

Well, of course it is. The Prophet lived and wrote in the latter half of the Sixth Century, while Christianity is basically a Fourth Century celebration of the life of someone who lived many years before.

I'm not sure if certain terms are being used entirely correctly. The Reformation was the break between what are now called the Protestant and the Catholic branches of Christianity, and the resulting wars were among the bloodiest in European history. (Read Luther's commentaries on the peasant revolts, for example.) This was hardly the first such schism; the earlier one between the Orthodox and Catholics still forms at least part of the wars in the Balkans. These are doctrinal disagreements and the Muslems have had their fair share. The Sunni and Shia have been at it for centuries, and Salafism/Wahabism opposes both of these. On the other hand, many Muslems do not allow their religion to control their lives and are as secular as many Western "Christians."

The Enlightenment was not a religious movement. Enlightenment thinkers, such as Descartes and Rousseau, rarely expressed themselves in religious terms and both the established (Catholic) church and the nascent Protestants generally opposed them.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:03 PM

Other nationalities might be interested to know that news readers on the BBC were told not to refer to the perpetrators as terrorists.
That word was considered to be too judgemental.
BBC news sites used the word terrorist on Thursday but on Friday it was editted to bomber.
Would this happen in any other country in the world?
I think they were wrong, but I am glad I live in a country that worries about such things.
keith.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:13 PM

The Bush administration tried to get "Suicide Bomber" changed in news reports to "Murder Bomber." As far as I know, everyone ignored them except the Fox network.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:13 PM

Guest: 06:26 PM

"All we are saying is..."

Are you speaking for all of us on the Mudcat or is there a "we" I am not aware of:>)

Jude


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:14 PM

Hey there, Art. Hope your weather's good!

I am trying to justify my observation that by being a 'younger' relilgion, Islam is going through, for want of a better word, 'teething' problems that Christianity has been through some time earlier. In the time of Voltaire, a Protestant was broken on the wheel and dismembered while still alive in a very public case which caused him to come up with the term 'ecrase l'infame' to denigrate the Catholic Church. When we read about a powerful Muslim leader seeking religious authorization to use nuclear weapons against civilians or of a fatwa against an author of a popular book, we are seeing things that have happened in the Christian world, only displaced in time.

Islam has its own internecine strife, on many levels, the one I'm most familiar with being the schism between Sunni and Shia, which dates as far back as the son-in-law of Mohammed.

The Enlightenment was a rise in the power and appreciation of secularism out of a world dominated by religious leaders and national leaders who bore religious mantles and led religious causes. This arose in Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries but has not arisen in the Islamic world until possibly the 20the century, and by no means in all parts of it.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:30 PM

Terrorist is a vague word, bomber is a specific word, and therefore more relevant in a news report.

News reports ought to be about providing the facts, not about telling people what they should make of them. There is a place for comment, but there should be a distinction between comment and factual reporting. "Terrorist" is a word that blurs that distinction, and is often used for that purpose. It is better kept on the comment side rather than the fact side, and I would imagine that the BBC has something like that written into its house style manual.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:36 PM

Exactly. Terorists terrorize. Bombers bomb.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:04 PM

"I read somewhere that this problem between Christians and Muslims goes back to the Crusades in 1099 when the forces of Richard the Lionheart butchered 50,000 men, women and children in cold blood."

And they both had GOD on their side.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM

Strictly speaking, the famous massacre (which was mostly of Christians and Jews, anyway) that took place when Jerusalem was stormed in 1098 had nothing much to do with King Richard. That was the first crusade, and it took place long before his birth. He was one of the leaders of the Third Crusade, which took place in the 1190s, and which was notable for nothing in particular.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:51 PM

What puzzles me is that after the initial claim on the internet, ther has been no further substantiation or confirmation ; and - more important - no statement coming from any organisation explaining the reasons for the bombings or the ideology that led to them; no notes, no messages, no demand for troop withdrawal or cancellation of the Olympics or the G8. Very unusual in such cases, and unheard of in Al Qaeda actions.

There's still a lot more to this than we know (or the investigators, I venture to suggest). Still, that doesn't stop people from jumping to conclusions and sending threatening messages to muslims. Bad days to come yet, I fear.

They say that such terrorists often are so secretive about their allegiances that even immediate family members would not be aware of their role. My heart goes to the victims' families; but also to the Tewkesbury muslims who are now viewed collectively with suspicion by some (thankfully not all, not even the majority). Not knowing why you lost a dear friend or relative must be torture. And being told that your son or friend may have been a terrorist (which you never suspected and in your heart may find hard to believe) must also be a torture, of a different kind. I am not comparing the two kinds - but there is more heartache out there than I realised at first. And what's worse, there may be worse to come if the hotheaded take action.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Alba
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:10 PM

Indeed El Greko.
Well put.
Jude


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:19 PM

I, too, feel the grief of the families who now realize that it was their son's who bombed London. The shame, the guilt and the despair must be horrible.

It seems so much like gang recruitment. Older boys (young men) recruiting disenfranchised youth to join them in criminal activity. In fact, I now view Jihadists in the same way I view the Mafia, the Red Circle Gang, The Crips, etc. All of these groups found fertile ground in countries with immigrant children who found it hard to find their place in a new society. This is certainly organized crime.

What else do Jihadists have in common with other gangs?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 04:25 AM

"From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

" and a prospective election candidate admitting to a campaign of pushing dog excrement through the front door of an Asian takeaway"

Oh Guest, must you be so innocent. If you read the reports you will know the full story. When the police contacted that asian takeaway owner in question about the excrement, the asian denied any knowledge of ever recieving it. It then turned out that the fellow alledging that crime was working with state-informant andy sykes the whole time! You must be one of thoss strange individuals who likes to pay his TV licence to the Blairs Broadcasting Corporation, (BBC).


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: sapper82
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 05:31 AM

I am probably going to cop a lot of flak over this, but I am getting fed up with well meaning people hiding their heads in the sands and creating a open goal for the BNP to score points with. So donning my tin hat, here we go!

There are essential differences between the ways in which Islam and Christianity were spread, at least for the first couple of hundred years of each.

Taking the older first, Christianity's initial spread was against much oppression, by entirely by means of peaceful evangelism and personal example. It was not until adoption by the Romans that force and coercion began to be used.

Islam on the other hand owed its rapid expansion entirely to the sword. At the end of the First Millenium Islam had spread far beyond Arabia and was threatening to engulf Europe. The legends of El Cid, Charlemagne and Roland belong to this time when the very existance of Christianity was under threat.

Placed in this context, the reasons for the Crusades (though not their effects and methods)do become much more understandable.

This does tend to blow apart the blanket assumption that Islam is a religion of peace, prepared to live quietly and with respect for thier non-Islamic neighbours. As much as most followers in the UK and Europe would like to live in peace, the history of Islam is one of militancy and opression of "the infidel". This is still happening in Asia and Africa. Witness the continuing murders of Budhists in South East Thailand by muslims intent on the "Religious Cleansing" of that area.

Irrespective of the peaceful wishes and desires of the majority of European Muslims, there is sufficient justification in the Koran for these murders to be recognised as Islamic acts and we in the UK have been guilty of allowing a tiny minority of Muslim clerics to preach hatred whilst at the same time claiming assylum and funds from our Government.

Denying this is allowing the BNP to run rings round ANY arguement for integration.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 07:12 AM

Hmmm, I don't know, sapper83. No stones thrown your way, your tin hat is safe from me, but I favour a different interpretation, that says:

I am willing to accept that Islam as a religion is basically pacifist, as indeed is Christianity. Nevertheless, neither religion (or any other religion that I can think of) has managed historically to prevent atrocities and wars to take place in the religion's name. You cite the early days of Christianity being propagated by peaceful means - I would say that this was so simply because they were in no position to do otherwise. They were the underdogs of society, until the first "christian" states came into existence. But when the Christians came into power, Jews were persecuted, Christians of other dogmas were hunted down etc etc. Look at the Protestant/Catholic divide in Northern Europe and the 100-years war, for example. How come the pacifist Christians turned to the monsters that burned and tortured - think Inquisition. It was not their religion that was driving them, is my answer; the motives were different, and religion became the dressing for mass consumption.

I believe it is societies and cultures that breed violence, not religions. Sure, religion can play a formative role in any culture, but more often than not, it is an external trapping only, as far as that culture's drives are concerned. I am thinking behaviour of the masses, here. There is also the question of what drives an individual "religious leader" to advocating violence - but once more, I would argue that it is not religion that bred the hatred, but rather the concept of perceived wrongs (and in some cases even blatant greed). Religion (and you can extend that to cover also "political beliefs") is then used to dress the message, because it provides an easy vehicle for infecting the masses.

Especially when you consider the history of religions, and the geographies where they were first created and spread, you find that more often than not, it was the local culture and geography that shaped the religion, rather than the other way round.

For example, English society has inherent violence, going back as far as you will; it was not religion that bred this, but circumstances - the need to protect one's own possessions, or grab the neighbour's, tribal wars etc etc. The violent undercurrents are strong and manifest themselves often mildly as an urge to "put down" others out of the blue (unheard of in southern european cultures). I don't pretend to know the origins of it, but I know they are older than any religion. And I know that it goes beyond the appearance of hooliganism or the superiority of empire-building in the past; that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Similarly, Middle Eastern cultures have values bred in that existed before any religion made its appearance. The position of women in their society reflects some of these older-than-religion values. Lack of tolerance towards opposing beliefs or criticism is another - and is the REAL cause of many of the "fatwas" issued and "jihads" proclaimed (I use the quotes to indicate the falsity of purpose).

In the end there are always going to be differences between people and between cultures, that are not caused by religion, but are instead couched and explained in religious terms. As it is unlikely that these differences will ever disappear, in the end the only possible route towards the nirvana of global peace can be tolerance of such differences and fair treatment of each other (to minimise new grievances coming to the fore to foster new hatred to be dressed up as religious difference).

Now, how likely is that? Not very, I have to admit. Which is not a good reason for being intolerant, however. I cannot create peace everywhere, but perhaps I can help create some peace in my immediate surroundings. And even then, in today's world of global communication and travel, the peace in my immediate surroundings can be disturbed. But if the opposite to trying for tolerance is breeding more hatred through intolerance, I choose the former.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:19 AM

Just a small point here. Yesterday a car bomb was used in Bahgdad to kill 26 people, mostly children. That incident got some coverage on the nightly news in Maine, but when I looked through the main stories in the New York Times on line it was nowhere to be seen. Likewise, it was a relatively small item on the BBC and ITV websites. I am pretty sure that this story will not be followed up in any real manner.

Now, to me the killing and maiming of children is an obscenity in any language and there should be a lot more coverage than is the case. This is where I think that we in the West go wrong - when it isn't ours that are being slaughtered we tend to let the waves wash over it and forget it ever happened. No two minute silence for those babies or interviews with bereaved parents....

Rant over - just had to get that out.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:24 AM

The Baghdad car bombing did get coverage on all UK news programmes. If the people of Baghdad decide to hold a two minute silence I am sure those who wish to mark it in Baghdad will do so. It isn't our call to tell them that.

The two minute silence in London was eerie and very emotional. Soho Square was packed as workers came into the streets and joined the tourists for the silence. I can'tcomment on elsewhere, but I am sure it was observed everywhere.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM

Jacqui, it was covered in the NY Times, but you are correct about the follow-up. This is likely because this happens in Baghdad every day.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,catsphiddle@work
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:48 AM

The two minute silence was observed where I work. Quite a few of us went up onto the roof terrace and looked out towards the city others just sat at their desks. It was a very eerie feeling for there to be no other noise other than the refinery working away on its own.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM

BTW, the British police was amazingly quick in tracing the suicide bombers. They even seem to search the correct houses and seem to know who was the man behind the bombs. CCTV whether we like it or not played a big role in that success.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

You're right. Also the family of the 18yr old bomber, reported him missing that morning to the police. He had not long returned from a trip to Pakistan with ( I think) 2 of the other bombers. I believe the police and his family had their suspicions that he was maybe in some way responsible, and that was a huge lead for them to follow up.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: heric
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM

That was quite anazing. At first I thought it was not such a big deal after they said "Oh, one of their mother's called us," but that doesn't explain it all by a long shot. I would expect in the states to read a year or so later about how one of the mothers called in but no one followed through.

I won't pick my nose in public on my next trip to the UK.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:20 PM

Jacqui.....You make a very good point, many Muslims seem to feel that we value one western life as equal to twenty in Iraq or Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:28 PM

Unfortunately, this is only available to listen to until 9pm-ish (UK time) on Fri, 16 July, but I thought this commentator's insights were very sound. If the link above doesn't work, try BBC Radio 4's News page and scroll down to 'A Point of View'. (You will need RealPlayer or the BBC RadioPlayer in order to listen.)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 10:09 PM

heric - Please don't pick your nose in public when you are in Canada or the U.S., either. Its unbecoming and beneath your dignity :>)

But yes, it does make you wonder how they were able to isolate the perpetrators so quickly. What I can't understand is why these guys were carrying I.D.? They claim to have found their I.D. What???

From all the reports, these guys seemed to have no politics. They seemed to be like the guy next door. Could it be that they thought perhaps they were transporting something else? Could it be that they didn't know what was in the packs? Could it be that they were just pack mules looking to earn some quick money? The mind reels.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: sapper82
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:17 AM

Question:
Were these people INTENTIONAL suicide bombers or did they intend dropping their bags and getting off the trains before they exploded?
It is possible that they thought the bombs had longer to go on the timers, but perhaps someone else had other ideas.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser but Born Londone
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM

Who cares if they intended to kill themselves? I'm just glad they're dead. I hate saying that.

And who the hell is teaching young men in this country that they should be doing this? And why are we letting them?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:03 PM

I don't think they were taught, so much as brain washed. The condemnation of the bombings by all communities has probably done more damage to the bombers cause than their brain washers could have imagined. The coming together of many faiths has been a positive outcome of a sickening act.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 05:39 AM

according to one account they had ritually shaved their body hair, and eye witnesses saw them clutching the bombs to their bodies.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Chris B
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 06:59 AM

Your point being what? Beware of bald asians carrying sports bags? I think we're all getting a bit bogged own in detail here.

For what it's worth, I don't like the term 'Islamofascist'. This is fascism, pure and simple. Fascism, as we should know, thrives in peasant societies where unchallenged patriarchal religious and social structures are the norm. Which is probably why fascism took hold in so many Catholic countries during the 20th century.

If there's any comfort in remembering that we are only a couple of generations away from that sort of behaviour ourselves, it may be that the peasant muslim world may be only a couple of generations behind us. Let's hope they can get there without the wars we fought among ourselves in the civilized world. I use that term without irony.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 07:02 AM

The latest theory seems to be that they WERE bombers , but not intentionally 'Suicide' Bombers - Set up to place the bombs and then murdered by their own people ! Nice friens some people have !


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Chris B
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 07:55 AM

My heart bleeds.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:39 AM

Is it time for another discussion of the proper definition of Fascism as a economic and political system? Whatever their motivations may have been, I personally doubt that central control of privately-owned means of production and distribution were included.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:15 PM

Motivation????

Research into the cause of terrorism points out that all terrorist groups are not motivated by religious ideology but by the fact that their homeland is being occupied by a foreign military.

For Blair to call the bombings a result of an evil ideology is either ignorant or another lie to mislead the public. Comments like that will create suspicion and divisions in communities.

Blair and anyone else can do their homework and find that the most logical explanation for the London bombings is the presence of British military personnel in Iraq.

Although I never liked Blair, I thought he was intelligent. Now I think he is extremely stupid. Doesn't he understand the position of Muslim youth in his country? Britain has invaded the middle east (a primarily Muslim territory) and he expects that the Muslim youth in Britain aren't already receiving flak from their peers? Doesn't matter how innocent you are, you will be targetted as an evil doer if you are Muslim, thanks to Blair. What does he want? Civil war?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

my point being that they wouldn't have gone through the ( pre suicide) ritual shaving and held the bomb tightly to themselves if they had been in the process of planting it and running away or intending to run away.

first time I've been accused of subtlelty.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

weelittledrummer - by one account?

Who is this one account? How would that person know if they had shaved off all of their body hair? Sounds doubtful to me. If he/she knew that the shaving took place, that person probably knew about the bombings apriori. I don't think there was much left of the bodies to examine and I do not think any of that kind of information has been released. If so, please site your sources.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:01 PM

Too many rumours verging on gossip, and too much speculation going beyond the known facts. Maybe these were indeed suicide bombers, maybe they were bombers disposed of by their handlers, maybe they weren't bombers at all, but couriers with no idea what they were carrying.

No doubt in time evidence on which it would be possible to judge those those kind of things will will come out. But right now we haven't got it, and nor have the people speculating away in the media. There's something rather unsavoury about it all, it seems to me.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM

From another thread:

"The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign-over 95 percent of all the incidents-has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw."

Evil ideology?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 12:30 PM

Research into the cause of terrorism points out that all terrorist groups are not motivated by religious ideology but by the fact that their homeland is being occupied by a foreign military. (Dianavan)

A very strange statement.
Which foreign country is occupying Pakistan?
Which foreign country was occupying Russia when the anarchists did bomb over there in the 19th century?
Which foreign country is occupying Indonesia from which the Bali bomb originated?
Which foreign country is occupying Tunesia from which the Djerba bomber killing German tourists in a synagogue came?
Which foreign country is occupying Morocco from which 5 identified Madrid bombers came?

When the RAF bombed in Germany in the 1970s/80s technically Germany could have be considered an occupied country but I can assure you that that was not at all on the minds of the terrorists. They wanted to fight the Vietnam war in Germany and freeing Germany from any occupation was not in their minds.

But what was in your mind when writing down that sentence?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM

I take dianavan as saying that not all terrorist groups are motivated by religion, but in many cases by nationalism related to foreign occupation, which is pretty evidently true; rather than that that all terrorist groups are motivated by nationalism related to foreign occupation, which is pretty evidently not true. (Her wording is ambiguous - a "many" or "generally" after that "but" would make it clearer, if my reading is correct.)

Though in fact, of the examples Wolfgang gave, many Pakistanis would regard the partition of Kashmir as constituting a foreign occupation of part of their country, and this has been a very significant element in the development of terrorist activities.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:27 PM

The article dianavan is referring to specifically addresses the phenomenon of suicide terrorism. But I can see how some people might generalize it to be about any kind of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:30 PM

Here's the article:

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7025


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:45 PM

Agree, Kevin. In addition, I think "nationalism" should be applied here in a wider-than-usual interpretation: not referring to independent nations alone, but also to a wider gouping, such as a pan-Arab conscience. This then explains some of Wolfgang's questions and the fact that none of the London bombers (as far as we know or we are told) were of Iraqi or Afghani descent, yet their action is taken (by many, including me, though no proof is available) as being linked to Britain's involvement in those two countries.

I worked in the M.East for some years and I have friends in most of the countries around the Gulf of Iran and the Arabian peninsula. My understanding from long discussions with them in the past (10 years or so ago) is that they do indeed share this "pan-Arab" conscience, which comes into play when faced with a common enemy.

I believe that it is this wider interpretation of "nationalism", taking in racial (and possibly also some religious?) overtones, that is at work in this case. But religion is just part of it, and not the largest part either. To badge this common Arab feeling as a "religious idealism" would be wrong and misleading, and would miss the point. Religion may be used by those who would foment such feelings as a kind of "glue" (and also to provide incentives such as an enriched afterlife to the activists), but it is not the cause of terrorism. Not in this case.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

In case my last sentence is misinterpreted: Not in this case - or any other case that I am aware of.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

about 'motivation'...indeed, sometimes Nationalism or Ethnicity IS the base cause of attacks, but as El Greco notes, religion is 'almost' always present as a rationalé and 'moral' support factor.

How many suicide bombers would they be able to recruit without promises of Paradise?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 02:25 PM

Bill, if you read the article I posted a link to, you will see that some of the original suicide terrorists, and the ones who invented the suicide bomber vest that is commonly used now, are the Tamil Tigers who are secular Marxists.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM

Also this from the article...

TAC: There have been many kinds of non-Islamic suicide terrorists, but have there been Christian suicide terrorists?

RP: Not from Christian groups per se, but in Lebanon in the 1980s, of those suicide attackers, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were Communists and Socialists. Three were Christians.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:27 PM

I still can't see why it is considered ethically superior to kill random civilians by dropping bombs on them from a great height rather than sitting beside them in a train.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:31 PM

It's not a matter of "in a train" it's a matter of intent


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Precisely.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:57 PM

Then intent of "Operation Shock and Awe" (massive bombing campaign by the US that targeted civilians as well as combatants in Iraq) was to terrorize the Iraqis so badly, they wouldn't try to put up any resistance to the invasion and occupation of their country by the US and it's allies. That's terrorism, by definition.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

Wolfgang - I was referring to suicide terrorism. Read the article Carol C. posted.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:11 PM

Yep carolC you're probably right.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM

"... some of the original suicide terrorists, and the ones who invented the suicide bomber vest that is commonly used now, are the Tamil Tigers who are secular Marxists."

yes, I see that. It doesn't negate what I said (I try to note in my posts room for exceptions)...MOST of the current attacks still rely on religious recruitment and youthful fervor ... and in Israel/Palestine, it seems to be close to 100% The London events were clearly related to these factors, as were the 9/11 events.

If there is to be any progress made, we must look VERY honestly at exactly what seems to be happening.

...and let me add, I am quite pleased with today's Fatwa announcement by many moderate Muslim clerics, condemning suicide bombings..It showed courage and is a good sign.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM

The dianavan and CaolC's of the world coninually overlook the bleeding obvious. Yes, of course the military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq increased the risk of retaliation by Islamic bombers. The UK declared war on Germany in 1939, and those who opposed thsat action also correctly pointed out that this would provoke Hitler into bombing London. And so it did. But this does not actually prove that fighting the Nazis was a Bad Thing. There is a logical bit missing in the argument.
    The fact is, to look at the precise situation we have here: the level of violent disafection among the young British Muslim youth of Pakaistani otign was ahuge cause for alarm before Iraq, Afghanistan, and before 9/11. And of course, it beacem greater when America retaliated in Afghanistan, and again after the recent Iraq conflict. As, I pointed out earlier, did German action after we declared war on them. That has no relevance to the question of what you should do about Nazis, Islamic fundamentalism, or any other lunatic ideology. Of course these people fight back when provoked. But that does not prove they must not be confronted.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM

Apologies for the typos in the previous post. I was attempting to tidy them up, but pressed the wrong button. As JOhn from Hull said, this is an Irark sight, not a spelin sight.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

Good grief a sensible person snook in the forum when I wasn't watching.

Problem is greg you're wrong, carolC will tell you why in a minute.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

Youre right, Shakey. She'll be by any minute. She'll show me why she thinks I'm wrong, and provide some very comprehensive references to a number of other publications by people who also know I'm wrong, and write at extreeeeeeeeeme legth to prove it.All I can say is, i was working alongside Muslim youth in England pre-9/11, and have been ever since. CarolC may think I know damn nothing, but I tell you I know damn all.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

I do note that Pape and others point out that 'most' of the suicide attacks in Iraq come from young people recruited from OUTSIDE Iraq...with Saudis being prime candidates.

and for a slightly different view of Robert Pape's work, Carol, you might read this article from a couple weeks ago

I note particularly this comment:

"Research by other scholars backs up this point. David Laitin, a Stanford University expert on civil wars, and Eli Berman, an economist at the University of California at San Diego, have demonstrated that while only 18 percent of the 114 civil wars since 1945 have pitted members of one religious group against another, fully 90 percent of suicide attacks take place in inter-religious conflicts."

This is the phenomenon *I* am noting....and it seems to me that, when religious leaders do not explicitly and strongly condemn hate-based violence, many followers take it as tacit approval.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:26 PM

In Princess Quay at the stroke of 12.00pm for the minute silence, muslim shopkeepers on the top quay turned up their radios and started jeering and cheering. Hull Daily Mail not interested! It has been recorded and will be available VERY shortly.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM

McGrath of Harlow,

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets. (Protocol I, Art. 48)

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


An enemy's capital might be considered a military target- But I suspect that even you would have difficulty in saying random civilians on a train, or children in a crowd were military targets.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM

David Hannam, I have read your post with great interest. Now kindly sod off back to Berchtesgarden.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:36 PM

In your cups a bit this evening are you, Greg?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

haha, greg stephens doesn't like truths it seems. What is more offensive, me recounting muslims celebrating in Hull? Or Muslims celebrating?

Greg Stephens, i have never read your posts with any particular interest, so i really couldn't tell you to sod off.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM

Carol: as Herodotus observed, the Iranians(the next targets for Bush by all accounts) discussed all serious matters first when drunk, and then reconsidered their decisions the following day when sober. If they inadvertently took a decision after a first discussion when sober, they postponed acting on it till they had had an opportunity to rethink it when drunk that night.
What think ye?
    But come on, tell me why I am wrong. I'm afraid I am not drunk at the moment, just the old problem kicking in.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:46 PM

Sorry, Bill, but even this bit from your link conflicts with your use of the term "most". The percentages given here are 43 percent coming from religously affiliated groups and 57 percent coming from secular groups.

"'Dying to Win" draws on a thorough database of all suicide attacks recorded since the contemporary practice was born during the Lebanese civil war in the early 1980s: a total of 315 incidents through 2003, involving 462 suicidal attackers. Of the 384 attackers for whom Pape has data, who committed their deeds in such danger zones as Sri Lanka (where the decidedly non-fundamentalist, quasi-Marxist Tamil Tigers have used suicide attacks since 1987 in their fight for a Tamil homeland), Israel, Chechnya, Iraq, and New York, only 43 percent came from religiously affiliated groups. The balance, 57 percent, came from secular groups. Strikingly, during the Lebanese civil war, he says, some 70 percent of suicide attackers were Christians (though members of secular groups)."


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:53 PM

David Hannam: I am quite sure 99% of my posts will be of no interest to you whatever, and this is of no surprise to me. They are about folk music.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM

CarolC,
"Sorry, Bill, but even this bit from your link conflicts with your use of the term "most". The percentages given here are 43 percent coming from religously affiliated groups and 57 percent coming from secular groups."

But, YOU have stated that less than half is most, so....

thread.cfm?threadid=82432


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM

David Hannam

I work in Princess Quay and nothing happened as you describe the 12.00 o'clock two minutes silence was respected by all.

Why try and make trouble, there is always someone listening to catch you out, your lies do not make sense.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM

Greg, I don't really have any interest in being baited by you. If you want me to discuss issues with you, you can leave out the invective.


(It has been staged recorded and will be available VERY shortly.)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

Greg Stephens, i really couldn't say, as i said, i have never read any of your posts except for the previous two.

I suppose if most of your posts are about folk music, then i guess not, i usually ask for chords but not under my name, lol, but i tend to stay on the non-music section mostly. So again, unlike yourself who has read a lot of my posts with interest, i have never read any of yours that i recall anyway.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:59 PM

Combatants must distinguish between civilian and military objects and attack only military targets.

And so they should - but they don't. Obviously that is true of the train bombers - but it is true also of those who organised and carried out Operation Shock and Awe, designed specifically to terrorise civilians as well as military.

When I point out that there is no great difference between what is done in our name and what is done to us, that is not intended to imply that I think that I think stuff like the bombings are anything other than vicious murder.

...
World War II came about because the German government was intent on aggression against its neighbours. The invasion of Iraq came about because the US government decided to invade Iraq, which was not engaged in aggression against its neighbours, nor in a position to do so.

It was a very nasty government. But I don't think there is any reason to be confident that the government which be running Iraq within a few years will be any better. In fact there are grounds for predicting that in some ways, such as the position of women and of the Christian minority, it may be significantly worse.

In the meantime the terror which has been unleashed upon the Iraqi people as a result of the invasion and occupation daily becomes worse and, and is several orders more terrible than anything we have had to put up with.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:00 PM

Nice try, beardedbruce, but I think you know as well as I do that I did not say that.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:01 PM

Invective, Carol? I waa discussing London explosions. You accused me of being drunk: (there are other possible reasons for typing mistakes). So who was producing invective, exactly? Just answer the points I made, please. ( And I have never had obscene personal attacks removed from Mudcat, unlike some people I could mention).


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM

Guest Steve, i am afraid you are lying, or you are not aware of what happened, my friend works on the top of quay and is a manager,   and the video will prove that did happen.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:03 PM

Oh?


" But the 1860 census shows that out of a total population of 7,568,454 in the states listed above, 3,566,298 were slaves. That means that the slaves numberd only 217,929 less than half of the total population."

" since there were more slaves than free people in that part of the country"



If you did not say this, why is it posted on the mentioned thread by you?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:07 PM

*sigh*...Carol...you are still reading my comments, and then replying, not to what I claimed, but to a point YOU wish to make.

I am not trying to characterize all the known suicide bombings since 1980...and NOT to the Tamil conflict, and NOT to the Lebanese conflict.....I am trying to reflect on what is happening since 9/11, and particularly to the Iraqi events and Israeli events in the news recently...and of course, to the London events. If you wish to argue that I SHOULD be paying attention to what the Tamils and Lebanese have done, you may...but I won't get into that, as those issues are beyond what *I* am hearing about daily.

There simply IS a strong element of religious recruitment and much distortion of basic Islamic theology happening in those conflicts these days....and as I said, I am pleased that many moderate Muslim clerics are realizing this and beginning to speak out about the problem.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:08 PM

This invective, Greg...

Youre right, Shakey. She'll be by any minute. She'll show me why she thinks I'm wrong, and provide some very comprehensive references to a number of other publications by people who also know I'm wrong, and write at extreeeeeeeeeme legth to prove it.All I can say is, i was working alongside Muslim youth in England pre-9/11, and have been ever since. CarolC may think I know damn nothing, but I tell you I know damn all.

This is not a rational discussion of issues. This is baiting.

Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:25 PM

Baiting perhaps, on greg's part, Carol, but not invective. (And with a self-mocking touch at the end, though I'm not sure if that would have been picked up across the Atlantic).


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:27 PM

beardedbruce, if you look again at that thread, you will see that I conceded that my numbers may have been incorrect when I said this...

"If we assume that (blah blah blah... not going to rehash that thread in this one), then you are correct on the numbers"

I did it after I said this...

" since there were more slaves than free people in that part of the country"

and before I said this:

" But the 1860 census shows that out of a total population of 7,568,454 in the states listed above, 3,566,298 were slaves. That means that the slaves numberd only 217,929 less than half of the total population."

This means that I conceded that I might have been wrong about using the word "most" before making the second statement quoted above.

Nice try at being misleading and disingenuous. No cigar though.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:29 PM

CarolC,

"And so they should - but they don't. Obviously that is true of the train bombers - but it is true also of those who organised and carried out Operation Shock and Awe, designed specifically to terrorise civilians as well as military."

What were the TARGETS that the bombers were aiming at? if one wishes to attack military targets so that a civilian population can observe the effects, THAT is permitted. Byt intentionally targeting civilian populations, as the insrugents have done , are doing, and continue to do is in direct violation of all international war. So, how about some condemnation for them?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:32 PM

Invective used for the purpose of baiting, McGrath, if you want to get technical.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:36 PM

In the case of Shock and Awe, residential areas were bombed, as were hotels. In other words, civilians. In the case of the train bombings, the targets were civilians who ride on trains.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:40 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Pessimist vs Optimist
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 04:20 PM

But the my whole point really was for the purpose of addressing who could defined as being "average" in terms of what sort of experiences people were having. In the deep south, slaves were "the average person" prior to the civil war.

************************************************************************

Subject: RE: BS: Pessimist vs Optimist
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 03:47 PM

Were the slaves in the census at that time being counted each as one full human, or did 1 slave = 3/4 (or whatever fraction they used) of a full human?

From your link, beardedbruce, 1860 census, counting only the states that can pretty indesputedly be counted as "the South"...

Free -
Slave -

Alabama - 529,121
Alabama - 435,080

Florida - 78,679
Florida - 61,745

Georgia - 595,088
Georgia - 462,198

Louisiana - 376,276
Louisiana - 331,726

Mississippi - 354,674
Mississippi - 436,631

North Carolina - 661,563
North Carolina - 331,059

South Carolina - 301,302
South Caronina - 402,406

Virginia - 1,105,453
Virginia - 490,865

If we assume that in this census 1 slave = 1 full human being, then you are correct on the numbers. But the 1860 census shows that out of a total population of 7,568,454 in the states listed above, 3,566,298 were slaves. That means that the slaves numberd only 217,929 less than half of the total population. I think, considering the numbers, we can say that the slaves in the south could very definitely be put in the category of "average" in terms of how many people were having what kinds of experiences during that time period. And of course, if they were not each being counted as a full human, it's very possible that the number of slaves did indeed exceed the numbers of free people.

************************************************************************

3:47 PM is now AFTER 4:20PM?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:40 PM

And I do find it rich that you would suggest that I have no sense of irony just because I live across the Atlantic, McGrath. I've caught irony that got past your radar more than once. Them's fighting words.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 07:46 PM

beardedbruce, please show me where, in my 4:20 post, the word "most" appears. Please note - "average" and "most" do not mean the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM

Sorry brucie - you're getting your wires crossed in pst 8 Jul 05 - 07:29 PM;

That was me, not Carol. And I don't kjbnow where you are geting tegh idea that I think that somehow there was something justifiable about the train bombings, which I specifically described as vicious murder in the paragraph you didn't quote from that post of mine you ascribed to Carol.

............
I disagree there Carol - I differentiate between baiting (or teasing) and invective. That doesn't mean they can't be mis-used in a discussion, just as invective often is. And both should be distinguished from the kind of unpleasant personal abuse which gets thrown around too freely, especially by people who've made fools of themselves in an argument.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:15 PM

Alright then pardner, get out yer dictionary, and let's have a look...

My dictionary...

Main Entry: 1in-vec-tive
Pronunciation: in-'vek-tiv
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English invectif, from Middle French, from Latin invectivus, from invectus, past participle of invehere
: of, relating to, or characterized by insult or abuse


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:40 PM

The distinction I make between invective and abuse is perhaps one that is open to challenge. My dictionary actually defines invective as "abusive speech or writing, vituperation, wordy onslaught or attack". Though dictionaries shouldn't be treated as being the last word...

But I'm sure you'd recognise as familiar the example given below the definition: he was a master of invective, but a shallow reasoner There's a lot of that around here sometimes.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:22 AM

Dianavan,

(1) there was nothing in your post I have quoted indicating you were only talking about suicide terrorist groups
(2) But even if you restrict what you have said to them it is wrong as you can see in some of my examples. Take Djerba for incidence. A Tunesian suicide-bombing Germans in a Synagogue. Who is occupying Tunesia?

I take dianavan as saying that not all terrorist groups are motivated by religion (McGrath)

McGrath, not all terrorist groups... I only can agree with a sentence formulated this cautious way. In my eyes it is true and completely uncontroversial. My issue is with the 'all are not motivated' expression. You think Dianavan didn't express herself well. You could be right but from other opinions of her I think she did express herself well and I disagree with the content (and not at all with her way of expressing herself). But she is the only one who can tell that better than our speculations.

El Greko, good observations, but you made me stop when you did write about the "pan-Arab" conscience. The Indonesian bombers do not fit in here for they are not Arabs though they are co-religionists. The common religion is here the motive and not the common Arab-ness. Suicide terrorists from the South of Sudan also hardly fit the Pan-Arab motive.

Using the cautious formulation of McGrath I'd agree that not all motives are religious but I'd disagree with 'all motives are not religious'.

BTW, I liked reading a comment in today's Guardian with a German angle (our terrorists of the 70s) in it:

Useful idiots have always apologised for terrorists

Those who say we are doomed to remain indefinitely in a state of siege are as wrong as those who think that merely to withdraw from Iraq, desirable though that would be, would bring the terrorist siege to a quick, clean end.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:22 PM

Wolfgang - You are such a nitpicker you drive me crazy!

If there is a misunderstanding, take it up with "Associate Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago, whose book on suicide terrorism, Dying to Win, is beginning to receive wide notice."

From the article posted by Carol C. in this thread and by me on another thread.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:16 AM

Nitpicking is better than insults. Wolfgang's approach has a lot to be said for it.

Though I'd disagree with his judgement this time, where he reads intent into what appears pretty clearly to have been ambiguity in a hastily written post by dianavan.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Fed Up
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:25 AM

Carol, take some valium. This is a discussion forum, not an abuse forum. Your regular attacks on people such as McGrath, El Greko, greg, and others do not win you any debating points.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM

Useful Idiots

From the Guardian article...

If Germany's experience has lessons for us, it is that the outcome of our journey depends most of all upon security measures to catch the terrorists and a rejection of violence by those who are tempted to excuse or even condone it.

Rejection of violence indeed.

Iraq Body Count

"One might ask how it is possible to claim that the deaths of some 4,500 civilians at the hands of paramilitaries demonstrates "utter contempt for innocent life" when the blood of some 14,000 innocents staining our own hands is considered noble and necessary. Tony Blair provided the following answer on 20th November, standing alongside George W Bush in London:

    'This terrorism is the 21st century threat. It is a war that strikes at the heart of all that we hold dear, and there is only one response that is possible or rational: to meet their will to inflict terror with a greater will to defeat it; to confront their philosophy of hate with our own of tolerance and freedom; and to challenge their desire to frighten us, divide us, unnerve us with an unshakeable unity of purpose; to stand side by side with the United States of America and with our other allies in the world, to rid our world of this evil once and for all.'

The claim that a strategy which produces 14,000 civilian deaths is the expression of a "philosophy of tolerance and freedom" is a claim which we find incomprehensible. Our incomprehension is shared, we believe, by the majority of the world's people."


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM

Guest, Fed Up, you have a bizarre idea of what constitutes an attack.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:41 AM

Imagine the flak if we decided to piss all over a thread about a tragic occurence in US.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:43 AM

It happened in the threads about 9/11, GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 11:41 AM.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:44 AM

Well if you thought that was ok it explains why you are doing it here.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM

Yes, actually, I did think it was ok. I thought that the perspectives about the relationship of the US to the rest of the world that were given by people from other countries in those threads was quite valuable for us here in the US to read.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:52 AM

There's a time and a place for obsessive rantings,but you wouldn't understand that. Carry on, without martin you seem to find any outlet you can.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:54 AM

Carry on, without martin you seem to find any outlet you can.

...and here I thought you were trying to take his place.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM

goodbye carol. I have a job to go to.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:11 PM

Why CarolC must you continue to fight on this thread which is about poor people meeting there death, please show some respect for the dead.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM

Actually, GUEST, I have mostly been trying to avoid fights. Why don't you talk to the ones who keep trying to drag me into fights? They are the ones who are sullying this thread.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

This thread isn't just about poor people meeting their death. Its about the explosions in London. That begs the question why.

Guest - Do you feel anything for the Iraqis who have died as a result of U.S. aggression? The people of London and the people of London are the same to me. I don't know any of them but I still think its tragic.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

dianavan you should also show some respect for the dead, and dont use this thread for your political rant platform


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:48 PM

"Guest - Do you feel anything..." On balance, probably not. But in any case it's a good policy to ignore that kind of self-absorbed phantom.
...............

Here is a link to pictures of London in the wake of the bombs, on flickr.

A bit more relevant.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM

I think the conversation while mostly okay, is somewhat hampered because folks are discussing it at different levels. At the level of death unleashed on unsuspecting civilians, there is a sad commonality to all the victims, wherever they are. However, if you're going to start equating all victims of all wars, you are taking a moral equivalency view, much as one might make of it from outer space. This is not wrong of itself, but it is wrong to make everything equal and then come back into the game arguing in favor of one side.

If you're going to take the viewpoint from outer space, then you should stay in outer space.

If you're going to argue that people, who strap on explosives and go onto a civilian conveyence in order to wreak havoc on fellow civilians, are no different from military opponents in battle; you are involved in the morality of warfare and judgements can and are being made as to the values of either side and the springs of belief that flow into these actions. But it's correct to call attention to the distinctions being ignored to make that argument.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:38 PM

There is a difference between killing military opponents and killing random civilians, robomatic.

But when you're engaged in killing random civilians to make a political point, how the bomb is delivered is not all that significant to the reality of what is being done. And the truth is, that is what has been done in our name.

And that isn't to say that the people who blew up those bombs in London weren't engaged in an act of cruel and vicious murder, because they were. And the fact that they aren't the only ones in no way changes that.
.................................
That link I gave to the London bombing pictures on flickr - they are best seen as a slideshow, which you can do by pushing "View as slideshow" on the flickr screen. Seeing those shots of Londoners standing in the three minutes silence, taken by a whole bunch of strangers, adds up to a very powerful experience. I urge people to take a couple of minutes out from squabbling to share it.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM

McGrath: Without being more specific, you have just agreed with me without agreeing with me. You first say that there is a difference, but you then go on to restate what you have already said, so I conclude that you say there is a difference, but choose not to delineate that difference. thus creating a distinction without a difference.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 05:53 AM

any interested parties...

the body hair shaving was reported by The Times - sorry I didn't keep the article

Wolfgang, did the RAF bomb Germany in 1970's/80's?

wouldn't surprise me....they tell us nothing!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:04 AM

wld I had read that they shaved off their beards to avoid being possibly recognised as moslems.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:18 AM

I read they were working in a pig slaughter house to escape detection.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:45 AM

Thanks for the Silence pictures McGrath.
I think that one of our regular contributors will have been celebrating while we were grieving.
He only contributes to Irish political threads, no interest in music, and hates all members of the English race.
He wrote this a few weeks ago.

GUEST,Tír Eoghain BS: British Army reward murderer. (139* d) RE: BS: British Army reward murderer. 29 Apr 05

---------------------------------------------------------------

Al Q is on its way, Yorkie.
One door closes, another door closes, eh?

Good luck on your National Security thing.
We'll be alright however, Jack!


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: DavidHannam
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM

Yes very moving pictures.

Yes a disgusting post i think from the tir eoghin.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST,more terror attacks
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM

More terror attacks. Police are looking for a muslim in a local hospital


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 08:29 PM

In think you misunderstood what I was saying robomatic. My fault.

I didn't state the difference because I didn't think it needed to be stated. So I will now. As I see it setting out to kill non-combatants, such as civilians on a train, or families in their homes, is always murder and always indefensible, whoever does it. Setting out to kill enemy soldiers who would kill you if they had the chance is at least arguably justifiable.

That is the distinction that matters. How the killing mechanisms are delivered is, so far as ethics are concerned, not in itself that important. A bomb is a bomb.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:49 PM

Thank you for the clarity McGrath. I don't agree with your last statement, but I'm not going to argue the point.

As far as the latest bomb attempt goes, it appears that the good guys got lucky as there were no deaths, and a lot of evidence has been obtained.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:22 AM

weelittledrummer,

I should have thought of the other meaning of 'RAF'.

RAF: Red Army Faction (in their language)
Baader-Meinhof group in the liberal newspapers
Baader-Meinhof gang in the conservative press

This RAF did bomb Germany in the two decades, the other RAF didn't, not in these two decades I mean.

Wolfgang - You are such a nitpicker you drive me crazy! (Dianavan)

If one tries to see patterns, one of the good tests is to find exceptions, for one mostly can learn more from exceptions than from corroborations of a rule. My mind is trained this way. I've always found counterexamples to something I had thought was true an enrichment and never thought of them as nitpicking.

Dianavan, you could try to take corrections with more composure. Do you still remember your excessive emotional reaction when I told you that the Faroes lie West of Ireland? A simple three word sentence like 'I stand corrected' or 'I have erred' is often better than trying to defame the one posting in opposition to one of your points.

I'm not a wholist. I never mean the whole person or even the whole argumentation in one thread if I oppose one particular point.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:04 AM

The Faroes lie west of Ireland? No they don't. West of England and west of Wales, and west of almost all of the Scottish mainland; and most people - leaving out the ones who think they're in the South Atlantic - would be pretty surprised at that.

But most of Ireland is in fact to the west of the Faroes.
......................

As this post demonstrates, I agree with Wolfgang on the value of precision in matters of fact. And on quite a lot of other aspects relating to the way arguments are best conducted.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM

So McGrath - Are you saying that the Blasket Islands (off the Dingle Penninsula) are the most westerly point?

Wolfgang - I let it go because I didn't want to argue about something I didn't think it was particularly important and I also know that if you bothered to contradict this minor point, it wasn't worth the effort to try to change your mind.

Maybe it depends on whether you consider Ireland to be part of Europe.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

No, I'm saying that most of the island of Ireland is to the west of the westernmost part of the Faroe Islands. (And the Blaskets, of course, are to the west of the Irish mainland, but I'm a bit puzzled why they come into it...)


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:38 PM

Has someone been bombing the Blaskets? I'm getting a bit confused here.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM

This thread drift was a result of Wolfgang being a nitpicker.

I once said something like the Dingle Penninsula or the Blasket Islands were the most westerly point of Europe. He says its the Faroe islands and that I was trying to defame him by not admitting that I was wrong, or something like that. Its no big thing to me its just that Wolfgang won't let it go. He thinks I owe him an apology.

I don't think I owe him an apology. I think he is OCD and maybe he should admit he is wrong and let it go.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:34 PM

I think he is Often Correct Dianavan too.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM

What about Rockall?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

I don't remmber them being on all day about the bobmbings in Northern Ireland, or warrington, Brighton or Iraq, but because it happens in London that is different and that they are muslims or whatever, anyway it is sad that it happened isn't it.

As you say we could go on forever.

If it happens anywhere else as I say it is a quick there has been a bobming in Iraq or Warrington and now the weather, I mean how would you lot feel if they did that with London, I don't think you would be pleased would you.

Tam


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM

Ps.

I'm sorry if I have upset some people but please rembember that it not all London, there are other places that are just as important as London.

Anyway.

If I have upset anyone I'm sorry, but we have a saying in Scotland whay is it always London, everything has to go to London, why not Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham or Newcastle.

But that the London people for you, they think that the border between Scotland/Wales stops at the Watford Gap, and anything that is beyond that is just wilderness.

But let bygones be bygones

Tam


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM

PPs

we have a saying in Scotland, to the English and that is

WELCOME TO BRITIAN


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:16 PM

Thread drift extraordinaire once again

Just to remind people this thread is about when many people died in a bombing incident.

God bless them


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM

500


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

And if you'd checked up with an atlas or a web site, Dianavan, you could very easily have nitpicked back at Wolfgang, because he was dead wrong on that. (And he'd have said "I stand corrected" or "I have erred").

But in fact you were both wrong, and so is Greg, because there is a sizeable European island called Iceland that's way to the west of all those places.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:38 PM

But strictly speaking the westermost point of Europe would be in the Azores.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

I have Iceland down as a sort of intermediate...like Greenland. or Tristan da Cunha, for that matter: which I could hardly call Africa or America.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

I will never call Dingle the most westerly point of Europe ever again.

Now will you stop nitpicking over something that nobody is quite sure of?

I hardly think it calls for a confession or an apology.

What say, Wolfgang?


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:31 PM

The most westerly part of Europe is the island of Miquelon, just off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM

I thought of that - it's the nearest part of European Union Nirth America, that's true. But there are French overseas Terrotories a lot further west than that, over on the other side of North America. And there's talk of the Falklands having the same kind of status. So I don't think that being in the European Union necessarily means being in Europe.

After all there's a good chance that Turkey might become a member, and that's a good chunk of Asia.   And if Newfoundland a (lonmg) stones throw from Miquelin ever decided to regain its independence and apply for membership...


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 02:30 AM

Can we please confine this to the European continent!

Oops, if we do that, then we are all wrong.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 02:53 AM

Miquelon is politically part of Europe, through a quirky bit of French colonial history. But it's obviously not geographically in Europe. In a similar way, Israel takes part in the Eurovision Song Contest. I suppose Israel, in this case, is culturally part of Europe, though clearly not a geographical part. Gets a bit absurd if you start including politics and culture...you might end up saying North America is part of Europe as well, which would be very confusing.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM

Hawaii is probably farther away from the rest of the US than Miquelon is from France, but it's no less a part of the US than the states that are on the mainland.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 05:18 AM

Being part of the country doesn't mean it's part of the continent. After all embassies all over the world are considerd to be sovereign territory of the country concerned.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:24 AM

Ireland's Extremities


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM

Thanks for the correction, McGrath. I was wrong.

Fine way of arguing, Dianavan, to make assumptions about the psychiatric diagnosis of someone you disagree with.
I prefer to discuss what has been said and not to make diagnoses of a personality.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

CarolC: we seem to be discussing completely different things. Whether Miquelon is part of the continent of Europe, or Hawaii is part of north America, is one thing. Whether they are currently in some kind of political union with(or subjugation to) a country in some far away continent is a different question altogether.
I think (as McGrath has mentioned) you will find Tahit(or somewhere thereabouts) is also part of France. But I think you would be hard put to argue it is part of the continent of Europe, as it is in fact part of Polynesia in the Pacific Ocean.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM

I understand the price of beef is going up.


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Subject: RE: Explosions in London
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:16 PM

Wolfgang - You started this drift by saying, " A simple three word sentence like 'I stand corrected' or 'I have erred' is often better than trying to defame the one posting in opposition to one of your points."

Guess what. You don't get to tell me what is better. You aren't my mother, my father or my teacher. This is commonly called unsolicited advice. Now that you have admitted that you were wrong, you still haven't given me any credit. Instead you say:

"Fine way of arguing, Dianavan, to make assumptions about the psychiatric diagnosis of someone you disagree with.
I prefer to discuss what has been said and not to make diagnoses of a personality."

I already said: "I let it go because I didn't want to argue about something I didn't think it was particularly important and I also know that if you bothered to contradict this minor point, it wasn't worth the effort to try to change your mind."

So give it a break, Wolfgang. Take a downer. If you continue to harp about minor details and constantly bicker about insignificant details, I will conclude that you are obsessive and compulsive. BTW - This is not a psychiatric diagnosis as I am not a psychiatrist. Its just common slang for someone who is a nitpicker.


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