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Seachran Charn tSiail

Susan 26 Dec 98 - 01:16 PM
alison 26 Dec 98 - 10:21 PM
Susan 27 Dec 98 - 08:09 AM
Big Mick 27 Dec 98 - 11:10 AM
Susan 27 Dec 98 - 02:55 PM
Maelgwyn 27 Dec 98 - 07:42 PM
Susan 27 Dec 98 - 08:44 PM
Susan 27 Dec 98 - 11:18 PM
alison 28 Dec 98 - 01:12 AM
alison 28 Dec 98 - 02:05 AM
alison 28 Dec 98 - 02:21 AM
Susan 28 Dec 98 - 06:56 PM
alison 28 Dec 98 - 07:12 PM
SusanR 28 Dec 98 - 07:34 PM
alison 28 Dec 98 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Philippa 05 Jun 02 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Philippa 09 Jun 02 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Seamus 24 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM
Felipa 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM
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Subject: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Susan
Date: 26 Dec 98 - 01:16 PM

Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone could help me. I am trying to find out if the song "Seachran Charn tSail" by Clannad is in 3/4 time. I have not been able to find the sheet music anywhere and although it sounds like it is in 3/4 time other people tell me it is not.

Thanks in advance, Susan


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: alison
Date: 26 Dec 98 - 10:21 PM

hi susan,

I'm just listening to it now..... you can be forgiven for thinking it is in 3/4.... because it sounds like it is. From listening to it I reckon it is in 9/8 (slip jig)time, which is 3 groups of 3 quavers in each bar...... so it can sound like 3/4. But slip jigs tend to be more lively than waltzes.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Susan
Date: 27 Dec 98 - 08:09 AM

Alison,

Thank you for answering me so quickly...although your answer means bad news for me :)

I hope you don't mind if I ask that others keep adding their opinion and if *anyone* has the sheet music or knows where I can find it I will kiss the ground you walk on!


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Dec 98 - 11:10 AM

I just now finished listening to it, and I have to agree with Alison, although I will be accused of shameless sucking up. It does indeed sound like 9/8.

I will check a few resources and see if I can find it.

All the best,

Mick Lane


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Susan
Date: 27 Dec 98 - 02:55 PM

hmmm...2 out of 2 experts say it is not a waltz. My hope is fading fast!

well, since you are getting back to me so quickly, I might as well bug you some more! Does someone know where I could get the english translation? It's such a beautiful song...is all of Clannad's music this good?

Susan


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Maelgwyn
Date: 27 Dec 98 - 07:42 PM

Could someone post the lyrics to this? Thanks


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Subject: Lyr Add: SEACHRAN CHARN TSIAIL
From: Susan
Date: 27 Dec 98 - 08:44 PM

Hi Maelgwyn,

Here ate the lyrics in Galic but I don't know what they say in english:

"SEACHRAN CHARN TSIAIL

Ar mo tharraingt siar go Carn tSiail dom,
Go haonach bliantúil n Féil' Muire Mór
Tharla an ainnir as an taobh aniar dom
Is í go cianmhar 'gabháil tharam sa ród.
Dar liom féin, ó, gur scar mo chiall uaim
Mar bheinn ag siabhrán nó seal ag ól,
Chonacthas domhsa gur dhorcha an ghrian gheal
Le taobh 'ach dealramh 'raibh ina grua mar rós.

Bheannaíos féin go preab don mhaighdean
Agus feasbhaidh céille ní raibh in mo ghlór,
D'fhiafir mé féin dí 'raibh aon fhear in Éirinn
A ghlacfadh sí 'e roghain orm ins an ród.
D'fhiafir sí domhsa cá raibh mo léine,
Mo bhuig, mo bhéabhar, 's gan fiú na mbróg,
Go mb'annamh a chonaic sise sac ma éideadh
Ar fhear ag bréagadh cailín óg.

A chúileann fáinneach, má thug mé grá duit
Ná cuir i gcás mé fá bheith gan dóigh,
Agus gheobhaidh tú aoibhneas ar hallaí bána,
Fíon na Spáinne gheobhair seal le hól.
D'fhiafir sí domhsa an mar siúd ba ghnách liom
Bheith ag siúl na n-ardán ar bheagán stró.
Is é duirt mé léithi nár chleacht mise 'athrach,
Ach ainnir álainn agus gloine ar bord.

Níl siúd áit ó íochar Fhanad
Nach bhfuil mé i ngrá le bean nó dhó,
Bean sna Rosa thiar i Mín na Manrach,
Ó thaobh Ghleann Átha 'go dtí 'n Mhucais Mhór,
Dís i mBaoilleach, dis i mBáineach,
Bean in Árainn 's a chois Ghaoth Dobhair,
Ó Leitir Ceanainn go dtí mullach Gháigin
'S go Curraoin Mhanuis a chois an róid."


Susan


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Susan
Date: 27 Dec 98 - 11:18 PM

this is what one person told me:

"Today, I just went to my music teacher's house with the tape. Naturally, I asked him to listen to Seachran and tell me whether it is 9/8 or 3/4. Before I checked it with my teacher, I checked it myself, a student who has 8 years of experience with classical musics and theories. I strongly "believe" it's 3/4, not 9/8 but I wasn't 100% sure. My teacher has been doing music all his life and he is a quite reknown piano teacher in my town. When we finished watching Seachran the first time, he had to think for a moment because the beats really weren't very clear especially with Barb talking during the performance. The conclusion is there was many variations in the song because in some parts, a beat is subdivided to two or just one or half or one half. We listened to it again and he was sure Seachran can be considered as a 3/4 song and CERTAINLY NOT 9/8 because we don't hear : 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9 during a measure in no where. In each beat, it is most often subdivided into 2 but sometimes only 1. No beat was subdivided into 4 or 3. If it was subdivided into 4, it would still have been 3/4, if it was into 3, it would have been 9/8. If each beat was not subdivided, that means it has only 1, then it is still considered as a 3/4. Therefore, with sureness, Seachran is definitely not 9/8. My teacher affirms with sureness that although this song is not a regular 3/4 timing of a regular waltz because it's strong beat is not as clear nor does it have the effect of a traditional effect of 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3...of a traditional waltz because it contains some variations in its subdivisions, but it is still a 3/4 timing song without a doubt.

In this sense, I think the fact that the rumor about Seachran is a 9/8 timing is proven to be false. In fact, a trick for all of you. Listen to the middle part of that song where there was no vocal it was the clearest part of the song and try to count how many "small" beats you hear in a beat and you will hear it is indeed subdivided into 2. "

So...it's now 2 out of three experts! lol

Susan


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: alison
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 01:12 AM

Hi Susan,

I am not disputing your teacher.... but...... classical music and Irish music are not the same. (9/8 doesn't really exist in classical, but it does in Irish music.)

slip jigs can be hard to define.... but they do have a certain "feel" about them. and this particular tune has that "feel".

But just for the fun of it I'm going to put the tune into the computer both as 9/8 and as 3/4 and let you make up your own mind which sounds closer.

And yes, most of Clannad's stuff is very good..... although I have to admit I do prefer the earlier stuff.

slainte

alison

PS I do have a lot of classical and theory experience too.


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Subject: Tune Add: SEACHRAN CHARN TSIAIL
From: alison
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 02:05 AM

Hi again,

Mission accomplished. Here is the tune done in 9/8 and 3/4.

I am a teacher of Irish music as well as classical music and, classically trained to a very high level both in practical and theory examinations, (just in case you thought I was waffling about all this. **grin**)

9/8 and 3/4 do sound very similar but 9/8 has a certain "swing" to it which I hope you can hear in the MIDI file. If you listen to the instrumental bits in between the verses, you will hear that the harp is playing (in places)the 9/8 rhythm while the guitar is playing a counter rhythm, which is the usual 3/4 type. Gives the tune a nice feel and sets off the tune (and is more interesting to listen to). it happens in most 9/8 tunes..... see if you can find a recording of "The Butterfly" for another good example.

Anyway... here are the tunes.. I hope you can hear the difference. As usual I have stripped the tunes down to the basics, (left out the twiddly bits because they vary). I had to increase the tempo in the 3/4 version to make it near to the tempo of the track on the CD. The accented beats, don't seem to fall in the right places.

I rest my case........ let the jury decide.

MIDI file: SEACH9.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: Seachran Charn tSiuil 9/8
TimeSig: 9/8 24 4
Key: D
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
1440 1 69 061 0478 0 69 061 0002 1 71 049 0238 0 71 049 0002 1 74 052 0478 0 74 052 0002 1 71 041 0238 0 71 041 0002 1 69 048 0478 0 69 048 0002 1 71 057 0238 0 71 057 0002 1 74 044 0478 0 74 044 0002 1 76 044 0238 0 76 044 0002 1 78 045 0674 1 78 047 0071 0 78 045 0444 0 78 047 0020 1 78 047 0229 0 78 047 0002 1 78 053 0211 0 78 053 0020 1 76 049 0221 1 74 038 0017 0 76 049 0251 0 74 038 0000 1 76 057 0718 0 76 057 0002 1 76 059 0478 0 76 059 0002 1 78 047 0238 0 78 047 0002 1 76 036 0452 1 74 037 0035 0 76 036 0194 0 74 037 0039 1 71 048 1189 0 71 048 0021 1 69 050 0230 1 69 061 0054 0 69 050 0424 0 69 061 0002 1 71 046 0238 0 71 046 0002 1 74 050 0489 1 71 036 0017 0 74 050 0212 0 71 036 0002 1 69 048 0478 0 69 048 0002 1 71 048 0238 0 71 048 0002 1 74 054 0478 0 74 054 0002 1 76 046 0238 0 76 046 0002 1 78 043 0478 0 78 043 0002 1 78 042 0718 0 78 042 0002 1 78 050 0238 0 78 050 0002 1 78 053 0238 0 78 053 0002 1 76 048 0238 0 76 048 0002 1 74 037 0238 0 74 037 0002 1 76 065 0718 0 76 065 0002 1 76 046 0478 0 76 046 0002 1 76 044 0238 0 76 044 0002 1 74 057 0434 1 73 029 0072 0 74 057 0193 0 73 029 0021 1 74 050 1198 0 74 050 0002 1 78 057 0238 0 78 057 0002 1 78 060 0478 0 78 060 0002 1 81 059 0238 0 81 059 0002 1 83 065 0718 0 83 065 0002 1 83 059 0478 0 83 059 0002 1 81 049 0238 0 81 049 0002 1 78 051 0478 0 78 051 0002 1 79 053 0238 0 79 053 0002 1 81 059 0718 0 81 059 0002 1 81 049 0478 0 81 049 0002 1 81 036 0238 0 81 036 0002 1 78 057 0489 1 76 046 0035 0 78 057 0194 0 76 046 0002 1 74 050 0718 0 74 050 0002 1 74 046 0469 0 74 046 0002 1 74 057 0118 0 74 057 0011 1 74 050 0118 0 74 050 0002 1 76 040 0478 0 76 040 0002 1 74 046 0238 0 74 046 0002 1 71 061 1228 1 69 038 0016 0 71 061 0196 1 69 054 0017 0 69 038 0461 0 69 054 0002 1 71 048 0238 0 71 048 0002 1 74 057 0478 0 74 057 0002 1 71 044 0238 0 71 044 0002 1 69 048 0478 0 69 048 0002 1 71 059 0238 0 71 059 0002 1 74 038 0478 0 74 038 0002 1 76 038 0238 0 76 038 0002 1 78 053 0478 0 78 053 0002 1 78 057 0718 0 78 057 0002 1 78 047 0238 0 78 047 0002 1 78 051 0238 0 78 051 0002 1 76 048 0238 0 76 048 0002 1 74 041 0238 0 74 041 0002 1 76 065 0718 0 76 065 0002 1 76 054 0238 0 76 054 0002 1 76 042 0238 0 76 042 0002 1 76 065 0238 0 76 065 0002 1 74 057 0478 0 74 057 0002 1 73 035 0238 0 73 035 0002 1 74 053 1438 0 74 053
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Seachran Charn tSiuil 9/8
M:9/8
Q:1/4=100
K:D
A8B|d2BA2Bd2e|f11/4f9/4ffe7/8d9/8|e3e2fe15/8d9/8|
B5AA2B|d2BA2Bd2e|f2f3ffed|e3e2ed7/4c5/4|d5ff2a|
b3b2af2g|a3a2af2e|d3d2d/2d/2e2d|B41/8A7/8A2B|
d2BA2Bd2e|f2f3ffed|e3eeed2c|d9||

MIDI file: SEACH3.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: Seachrain Charn tSiuil 3/4
TimeSig: 3/4 24 8
Key: D
Tempo: 140 (428571 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0000 1 69 043 0958 0 69 043 0002 1 71 042 0478 0 71 042 0002 1 74 043 0958 0 74 043 0002 1 71 040 0478 0 71 040 0002 1 69 041 0958 0 69 041 0002 1 71 038 0478 0 71 038 0002 1 74 040 0958 0 74 040 0002 1 76 031 0478 0 76 031 0002 1 78 043 1438 0 78 043 0002 1 78 050 0958 0 78 050 0002 1 78 045 0478 0 78 045 0002 1 78 038 0478 0 78 038 0002 1 76 037 0478 0 76 037 0002 1 74 018 0478 0 74 018 0002 1 76 033 1438 0 76 033 0002 1 76 044 0958 0 76 044 0002 1 78 038 0478 0 78 038 0002 1 76 042 0958 0 76 042 0002 1 74 035 0478 0 74 035 0002 1 71 038 2398 0 71 038 0002 1 69 041 0469 0 69 041 0002 1 69 054 0955 0 69 054 0014 1 71 042 0478 0 71 042 0002 1 74 052 0958 0 74 052 0002 1 71 033 0478 0 71 033 0002 1 69 035 0958 0 69 035 0002 1 71 030 0478 0 71 030 0002 1 74 044 0914 1 76 036 0072 0 74 044 0440 0 76 036 0014 1 78 036 1438 0 78 036 0002 1 78 033 0958 0 78 033 0002 1 78 042 0478 0 78 042 0002 1 78 045 0469 0 78 045 0002 1 76 036 0455 1 74 033 0023 0 76 036 0491 0 74 033 0000 1 76 040 1438 0 76 040 0002 1 76 040 0958 0 76 040 0002 1 76 040 0478 0 76 040 0002 1 74 042 0958 0 74 042 0002 1 73 029 0478 0 73 029 0002 1 74 029 2398 0 74 029 0002 1 78 042 0478 0 78 042 0002 1 78 044 0938 1 81 050 0023 0 78 044 0479 0 81 050 0000 1 83 061 1438 0 83 061 0002 1 83 038 0958 0 83 038 0002 1 81 029 0478 0 81 029 0002 1 78 034 0958 0 78 034 0002 1 79 037 0478 0 79 037 0002 1 81 050 1438 0 81 050 0002 1 81 057 0958 0 81 057 0002 1 81 044 0478 0 81 044 0002 1 78 039 0958 0 78 039 0002 1 76 036 0478 0 76 036 0002 1 74 040 1438 0 74 040 0002 1 74 038 0932 1 74 038 0023 0 74 038 0215 0 74 038 0002 1 74 031 0268 0 74 031 0000 1 76 042 0958 0 76 042 0002 1 74 022 0478 0 74 022 0002 1 71 029 2398 0 71 029 0002 1 69 033 0478 0 69 033 0002 1 69 038 0958 0 69 038 0002 1 71 036 0478 0 71 036 0002 1 74 042 0973 0 74 042 0027 1 71 034 0440 0 71 034 0000 1 69 035 0958 0 69 035 0002 1 71 040 0469 0 71 040 0063 1 74 038 0908 1 76 029 0010 0 74 038 0470 0 76 029 0016 1 78 031 1424 0 78 031 0000 1 78 040 0958 0 78 040 0002 1 78 042 0478 0 78 042 0002 1 78 040 0471 1 76 038 0047 0 78 040 0431 0 76 038 0002 1 74 034 0478 0 74 034 0002 1 76 038 1447 0 76 038 0002 1 76 046 0478 0 76 046 0002 1 76 048 0446 1 76 037 0060 0 76 048 0408 1 74 036 0046 0 76 037 0960 1 73 033 0023 0 74 036 0455 0 73 033 0002 1 74 034 2880 0 74 034
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Seachrain Charn tSiuil 3/4
M:3/4
Q:1/4=140
K:D
A4B2|d4B2|A4B2|d4e2|f6|f4f2|f2e2d2|e6|e4f2|
e4d2|B6|-B4A2|A4B2|d4B2|A4B2|d15/4e9/4|f6|
f4f2|f2e7/4d9/4|e6|e4e2|d4c2|d6|-d4f2|f4a2|
b6|b4a2|f4g2|a6|a4a2|f4e2|d6|d4dd|e4d2|B6|
-B4A2|A4B2|d17/4B7/4|A4B2|-B/4d15/4e2|f6|
f4f2|f2e2d2|e6|e2e7/4e2d/4|-d4c2|d6|-d6||

Slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: alison
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 02:21 AM

Hi again,

If you can't use alan's program I'll send you GIFs to let you see the music. (But I'll need your email address..... you can send it via the personal messages at the top of the page.)

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Susan
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 06:56 PM

Alison,

You and the others have been so helpfull! I thank you for taking the time to put the music into midi files.

First is first...I know almost nothing about music! And the teacher in my thread above is not my teacher but "a friend of a friend" so I am taking into account everyone's opinion. That is why I came here to get someone's expert opinion on Irish music.

If you don't mind my rambleing I will tell you why I am asking you all of these questions. I'm afraid this might not make mush sense unless you are an ice dance fan :o)

In international ice dance there is chosen a rythem every year for the Origional Dance and this year's rythem is the Waltz. The Canadian ice dance team of Shae Lynn Bourne & Victor Kraatz are using the song "Seachran Charn tSiail" by Clannad for their waltz and there is a ruhmor that they may have to change it because it does not fit the rules (the rules are basically that it has to be in 3/4 time with a strong emphasis on the waltz tempo [quick/quick/slow]) which Bourne & Kraatz do have but it seems like they might have to change their music if the song is not in 3/4 time.

I figure...it looks like a waltz when they skate to it...it sounds like a waltz to me...then wouldn't that mean that it is a waltz? But I wanted to know what people who actually know something about music thought it was and if anyone knew for sure if it was in 3/4 time or not.

I have looked at the top of the page but I can not see where you can send a personal message (I'm really beginning to look like a complete idiot aren't I!)

Thank you again for all of you patience!

Susan


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: alison
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 07:12 PM

Hi susan,

Yes you could waltz to it. 9/8 is simply a compound time variation of 3/4. So either way the tune is divisible into 3 beats. It just depends on how fussy your adjudicators are, (if they have no Irish background they'll probably not ever doubt that it is anything but a waltz.)

As for personal messages... go to the main thread page.... up the top there are things to click on, one being "send a personal message". I'm assuming that you have registered to mudcat.... if not I highly recommend it, (you get other useful perks like the personal messages.)

I will send you the music as I have written it down on the computer if you send me your email address..... and if needs be.... show the judges the one in 3/4, (oops am I just encouraging people to cheat... of course I'm not!!)

In case you can't find me in the list

epulse@tpgi.com.au

Slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: SusanR
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 07:34 PM

I knew I should have joined before I started posting! tee-hee

I'm sorry to the other Susan for taking her name but I hadn't joined yet and didn't know there was someone else using Susan so from now on I will be known as SusanR


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: alison
Date: 28 Dec 98 - 07:46 PM

Welcome onboard SusanR.

Slainte

alison


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Subject: Lyr Add: SEACHRÁN CHAIRN tSIALL
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 01:28 PM

Well, this is unusual; the tune appeared at Mudcat well ahead of the lyrics. The song tells of a poet wandering around meeting beautiful women. I like the lines in the second verse where the woman asks him where are his shirt and his shoes, saying it's seldom she's seen a man wearing a sack for clothing come to court a woman.
The fourth verse tells of women in various places in North Donegal. "Dis" is the same as "beirt" orin Scots Gaelic "dithis", two people. From the notes below, you will gather that people used to sing this song with several verses of this ilk. Nowadays it would seem they choose one verse connected with their own locale. I don't know for sure if Clannad sang the same verses as Albert Fry, but it seems likely.

from singing of Albert Fry, Gael-Linn records:

SEACHRÁN CHAIRN tSIALL

Ar tharraingt siar go Carn tSiail Domh
Go haonach bliantúil na Feil' Muire Mór
Tharla an ainnir as an taobh aniar domh
Is í go cianmhar 'gabhail tharam sa ród
Dar liom féin, ó, gur scar mo chiall uaim
Mar bheinn ag siabhrán nó seal ag ól
Chonachtas domhsa gur dhorcha an ghrian gheal
Le taobh 'ach dealramh 'raibh ina gruaidh mar rós.

Bheannaíos féin go preab don mhaighdean
Agus feasbhaidh céille ní raibh in mo ghlór
D'fhiafair mé féin dí 'raibh aon fhear in Éirinn
A ghlacfadh sí 'e roghainn orm ins an ród
D'fhiafair sí domhsa cá raibh mo léine,
Mo bhuig, mo bhéabar, 's gan fiú na mbróg,
Go mb'annamh a chonaic sise sac mar éideadh
Ar fhear ag bréagadh cailín óg.

A chúileann fáinneach, má thug mé grá duit
Ná cuir i gcás mé fá bheith gan dóigh,
Agus gheobhaidh tú aoibhneas ar hallaí bána,
Fíon na Spáinne gheobhair seal le hól
D'fhiafair sí domhsa an mar siúd ba ghnách liom
Bheith ag siúl na n-ardán ar bheagán stró
Is é dúirt mé léithi nár chleacht mise 'áthrach,
Ach ainnir álainn agus gloinne ar bord.

Níl siúd áit ó iochtar Fhánad
Nach bhfuil mé i ngrá le bean nó dhó
Bean sna Rosa thiar i Mín na Mánrach,
Ó thaobh Ghleann átha' go dtí ' Mhucais mhór
Dis i mBaiollach, dis i mBáineach,
Bean in árainn 's a chois Ghaoth Dobhair,
Ó Leitir Ceanainn go dtí mullach Gháigin
'S go Curraoin Mhánnis a chois an róid.

Mánus Ó Baoill Ceolta Gael 2 (Mercier, 1986) had these same verses

S Ó Baoghill et al Cnuasacht de Cheoltaí Uladh (1944) has 4 verses; the first two are the same as those given above.

Breandán Ó Buachalla Nua Duanaire 2 (Dublin, 1976) has a different but closely related version, based mainly on a manuscript archived. in the Belfast Public Library. The first two verses are very close to those given above. Although he only published 6 verses, ó Buachalla says that most versions have over 20 verses - with many of the verses consisting mainly of names of places the poet has travelled and trades he has pursued.

There are many versions of this song. Ó Buachalla cites a book about the song: S Laoide. Seachrán Chairn tSiadhail (Dublin, 1904), as well as documents in University College Dublin M 20,13 c 1852); the National Library of Ireland G 802, 23 c 1850; Royal Irish Academy 3 B 38, 46 c 1850, and Belfast Public Library (P) XVII, 46 c 1850

In sources G (National Library) and M (UCD), Art Mac Bionaid wrote that the song was attributed to Micheál ó hIr, while in B (RIA) and P (Belfast Library) it is said that the author was Toireach Rua ó Dónaill . ó Buachalla credits ó Dónaill.

Toirealach Ó /Mac Dónaill who was born near Dungannon, Tyrone early in the 18th century. Little is know about Mac Dónaill but it is said he was killed by a group of soldiers when he was only 23 years old. (B. Ó Buachalla. Nua Duanaire 2. with reference to Ó Muirgheasa. Dhá Chéad de Cheoltaibh Uladh (Dublin, 1934) and é Ó Doibhlin Domhnach Mór (Omagh, 1969)

Éinri Ó Muirgheasa writing about 'seachrán' poetry in "Céad de Cheoltaí Uladh" (1915): "The seachrán like the aisling was a well-known class of composition in Irish poetry. Fairies were supposed to carry human beings all around Ireland in the course of one night, or even as far as Rome and back again. This was called a 'seachrán' or 'straying'. Every district had, up to the beginning of the present generation, stories of such nocturnal travels made by someone in that neighbourhood. But the great use of the Seachrán to the poet was that it enabled him to show off his knowledge of geography. Maps and geographies did not form part of the equipment of a hedge school, so that a knowledge of a number of place-names, and an idea of the location of these places, passed off as something very learned in these days. And the poem itself was more a lesson in geography than anything else. Then many of the poets were of the Goldsmith type, wanderers who had seen many places, and had heard stories from other travellers of the places they had not seen, so that in some of these poems we get characteristic touches in reference to the places that only one who had been to the place could supply."


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:38 AM

Well, wasn't I blind to miss the first posting - I could at least have typed out another version instead of repeating verses!

I am wondering if Port Lairge derives from a Seachrán. If it does, the earlier longer version should be available somewhere in manuscript or printed form.


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: GUEST,Seamus
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM

Just stumbled across this. The thread is probably long forgotten but in case future seekers come here, better late than never...

To alison and the others trying to make out the time signature -- Gaelic music, particularly Gaelic songs, often change tempo unexpectedly and in ways not connected to Western music, due to the nature of the music itself (which is in some ways more eastern than Western), and due to the artistic sensibility of the old generation of native Gaelic singers and their native audiences, in which the musical aspects are secondary to the more important aspect of the telling of the tale or poem. Therefore, tempo might change quite dramatically as the singer emphasizes a phrase to make it stand out. (In this it is similar to the more artistic renditions of some European bel canto music.) I have sometimes had trouble making sound engineers (and non-Gaelic musicians, even from Ireland) understand this aspect of the music.

Anyway, to add to Philippa's masterful summary, here is what seems to me to be a fairly good translation of the Clannad version:


As I was going out to Carn tSiail,
to the annual fair on the feast of Great (St.) Mary (i.e., The Assumption),
it happened that a young woman came toward me,
as she pensively passed me by.
It seemed to me that all sense had left me,
as if deluded or the worse for drink;
it looked to me as though the bright sun were dark,
compared to the radiance in her cheeks like roses.
With a start I greeted the maiden,
without no trace of sense in my voice.
I inquired of her if there was a man in Ireland
whom she would choose over me in her path.
She asked of me where was my shirt,
my wig, my beaver hat, not to mention my shoes;
that she had rarely seen a sack as clothes
on a man who'd entice young girls.

There's not a place from here to Min a' Lábáin,
where I haven't been in love with a woman or two,
a woman in the Rosses over in Min 'a Marach,
from Gleann Ailne to Mucais Mhor,
a pair in Baollach, a pair in Báineach,
a woman in Aran and one by Gweedore,
from Letterkenny to Ballydavid,
and to Coillidh Mhánais along the way.

I was in Moneymore, in Caislean Cabha,
in Baile Uí Dhálaigh and in Lisnaskea;
I have been in Monahan and at the Grainsi
and at Droichead Chúl Aine for over a year.
Last night I happened to be in Drogheda
and tonight I'm here around Carn tSial,
and now if you don't prefer me to men of affairs,
here's my hand to you and I'll travel on.


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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail
From: Felipa
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

According to this aricle Tarlach Rua Mac Donaill of Co Tyrone, first half of 18th c., composed Seachrán Charn tSiadhail (older spelling) with 6 verses but it became widespread in the folk tradition and many more verses were added
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarlach_Rua_Mac_D%C3%B3naill

Tarlach Rua Mac Dónaill http://treasureyourexceptions.com/mcwilliam__carnteel.html gives just this verse with translation - but it's the verse that isnt in the verses from Albert Fry added to this discussion earlier:

Bhí mé í Muine Mór is i gCaiseal Caifill,
I mBaile Uí Dhálaigh is i Lios na Sciath
Bhí mé i Muineacháin is ar a'Ghráinsigh
In Droichead Chúl Aine le corradh is bliain
De réir mar a tharla i nDroichead Atha mé
Anocht atá mé fá Charn tSiail.
Anois más rogha leat ar fheara Fáil mé
Seo mo lámh duit, bím ag triall.

I was in Moneymore and Castlecaulfield,
In Ballygawley and Lisnaskea,
I was in Monaghan and in Grainseach,
And in Droichead Chúl Aine for much of the year
And as I chanced to be in Drogheda,
Tonight I'm here in Carnteel,
And if I'm your choice of the men of Ireland,
Give me your hand, love, and lets be away!


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