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Seachran Charn tSiail
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Seachran Charn tSiail |
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Subject: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Susan Date: 26 Dec 98 - 01:16 PM Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone could help me. I am trying to find out if the song "Seachran Charn tSail" by Clannad is in 3/4 time. I have not been able to find the sheet music anywhere and although it sounds like it is in 3/4 time other people tell me it is not. Thanks in advance, Susan |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: alison Date: 26 Dec 98 - 10:21 PM hi susan, I'm just listening to it now..... you can be forgiven for thinking it is in 3/4.... because it sounds like it is. From listening to it I reckon it is in 9/8 (slip jig)time, which is 3 groups of 3 quavers in each bar...... so it can sound like 3/4. But slip jigs tend to be more lively than waltzes. Hope that clears it up for you. Slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Susan Date: 27 Dec 98 - 08:09 AM Alison, Thank you for answering me so quickly...although your answer means bad news for me :) I hope you don't mind if I ask that others keep adding their opinion and if *anyone* has the sheet music or knows where I can find it I will kiss the ground you walk on! |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Big Mick Date: 27 Dec 98 - 11:10 AM I just now finished listening to it, and I have to agree with Alison, although I will be accused of shameless sucking up. It does indeed sound like 9/8. I will check a few resources and see if I can find it. All the best, Mick Lane |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Susan Date: 27 Dec 98 - 02:55 PM hmmm...2 out of 2 experts say it is not a waltz. My hope is fading fast! well, since you are getting back to me so quickly, I might as well bug you some more! Does someone know where I could get the english translation? It's such a beautiful song...is all of Clannad's music this good? Susan |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Maelgwyn Date: 27 Dec 98 - 07:42 PM Could someone post the lyrics to this? Thanks |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SEACHRAN CHARN TSIAIL From: Susan Date: 27 Dec 98 - 08:44 PM Hi Maelgwyn, Here ate the lyrics in Galic but I don't know what they say in english:
"SEACHRAN CHARN TSIAIL |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Susan Date: 27 Dec 98 - 11:18 PM this is what one person told me: "Today, I just went to my music teacher's house with the tape. Naturally, I asked him to listen to Seachran and tell me whether it is 9/8 or 3/4. Before I checked it with my teacher, I checked it myself, a student who has 8 years of experience with classical musics and theories. I strongly "believe" it's 3/4, not 9/8 but I wasn't 100% sure. My teacher has been doing music all his life and he is a quite reknown piano teacher in my town. When we finished watching Seachran the first time, he had to think for a moment because the beats really weren't very clear especially with Barb talking during the performance. The conclusion is there was many variations in the song because in some parts, a beat is subdivided to two or just one or half or one half. We listened to it again and he was sure Seachran can be considered as a 3/4 song and CERTAINLY NOT 9/8 because we don't hear : 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9 during a measure in no where. In each beat, it is most often subdivided into 2 but sometimes only 1. No beat was subdivided into 4 or 3. If it was subdivided into 4, it would still have been 3/4, if it was into 3, it would have been 9/8. If each beat was not subdivided, that means it has only 1, then it is still considered as a 3/4. Therefore, with sureness, Seachran is definitely not 9/8. My teacher affirms with sureness that although this song is not a regular 3/4 timing of a regular waltz because it's strong beat is not as clear nor does it have the effect of a traditional effect of 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3...of a traditional waltz because it contains some variations in its subdivisions, but it is still a 3/4 timing song without a doubt. In this sense, I think the fact that the rumor about Seachran is a 9/8 timing is proven to be false. In fact, a trick for all of you. Listen to the middle part of that song where there was no vocal it was the clearest part of the song and try to count how many "small" beats you hear in a beat and you will hear it is indeed subdivided into 2. " So...it's now 2 out of three experts! lol Susan |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: alison Date: 28 Dec 98 - 01:12 AM Hi Susan, I am not disputing your teacher.... but...... classical music and Irish music are not the same. (9/8 doesn't really exist in classical, but it does in Irish music.) slip jigs can be hard to define.... but they do have a certain "feel" about them. and this particular tune has that "feel". But just for the fun of it I'm going to put the tune into the computer both as 9/8 and as 3/4 and let you make up your own mind which sounds closer. And yes, most of Clannad's stuff is very good..... although I have to admit I do prefer the earlier stuff. slainte alison PS I do have a lot of classical and theory experience too. |
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Subject: Tune Add: SEACHRAN CHARN TSIAIL From: alison Date: 28 Dec 98 - 02:05 AM Hi again, Mission accomplished. Here is the tune done in 9/8 and 3/4. I am a teacher of Irish music as well as classical music and, classically trained to a very high level both in practical and theory examinations, (just in case you thought I was waffling about all this. **grin**) 9/8 and 3/4 do sound very similar but 9/8 has a certain "swing" to it which I hope you can hear in the MIDI file. If you listen to the instrumental bits in between the verses, you will hear that the harp is playing (in places)the 9/8 rhythm while the guitar is playing a counter rhythm, which is the usual 3/4 type. Gives the tune a nice feel and sets off the tune (and is more interesting to listen to). it happens in most 9/8 tunes..... see if you can find a recording of "The Butterfly" for another good example. Anyway... here are the tunes.. I hope you can hear the difference. As usual I have stripped the tunes down to the basics, (left out the twiddly bits because they vary). I had to increase the tempo in the 3/4 version to make it near to the tempo of the track on the CD. The accented beats, don't seem to fall in the right places. I rest my case........ let the jury decide.
MIDI file: SEACH9.MID Timebase: 480 Name: Seachran Charn tSiuil 9/8 This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
MIDI file: SEACH3.MID Timebase: 480 Name: Seachrain Charn tSiuil 3/4 This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
Slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: alison Date: 28 Dec 98 - 02:21 AM Hi again, If you can't use alan's program I'll send you GIFs to let you see the music. (But I'll need your email address..... you can send it via the personal messages at the top of the page.) slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Susan Date: 28 Dec 98 - 06:56 PM Alison, You and the others have been so helpfull! I thank you for taking the time to put the music into midi files. First is first...I know almost nothing about music! And the teacher in my thread above is not my teacher but "a friend of a friend" so I am taking into account everyone's opinion. That is why I came here to get someone's expert opinion on Irish music. If you don't mind my rambleing I will tell you why I am asking you all of these questions. I'm afraid this might not make mush sense unless you are an ice dance fan :o) In international ice dance there is chosen a rythem every year for the Origional Dance and this year's rythem is the Waltz. The Canadian ice dance team of Shae Lynn Bourne & Victor Kraatz are using the song "Seachran Charn tSiail" by Clannad for their waltz and there is a ruhmor that they may have to change it because it does not fit the rules (the rules are basically that it has to be in 3/4 time with a strong emphasis on the waltz tempo [quick/quick/slow]) which Bourne & Kraatz do have but it seems like they might have to change their music if the song is not in 3/4 time. I figure...it looks like a waltz when they skate to it...it sounds like a waltz to me...then wouldn't that mean that it is a waltz? But I wanted to know what people who actually know something about music thought it was and if anyone knew for sure if it was in 3/4 time or not. I have looked at the top of the page but I can not see where you can send a personal message (I'm really beginning to look like a complete idiot aren't I!) Thank you again for all of you patience! Susan |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: alison Date: 28 Dec 98 - 07:12 PM Hi susan, Yes you could waltz to it. 9/8 is simply a compound time variation of 3/4. So either way the tune is divisible into 3 beats. It just depends on how fussy your adjudicators are, (if they have no Irish background they'll probably not ever doubt that it is anything but a waltz.) As for personal messages... go to the main thread page.... up the top there are things to click on, one being "send a personal message". I'm assuming that you have registered to mudcat.... if not I highly recommend it, (you get other useful perks like the personal messages.) I will send you the music as I have written it down on the computer if you send me your email address..... and if needs be.... show the judges the one in 3/4, (oops am I just encouraging people to cheat... of course I'm not!!) In case you can't find me in the list epulse@tpgi.com.au Slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: SusanR Date: 28 Dec 98 - 07:34 PM I knew I should have joined before I started posting! tee-hee I'm sorry to the other Susan for taking her name but I hadn't joined yet and didn't know there was someone else using Susan so from now on I will be known as SusanR |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: alison Date: 28 Dec 98 - 07:46 PM Welcome onboard SusanR. Slainte alison |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SEACHRÁN CHAIRN tSIALL From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 05 Jun 02 - 01:28 PM Well, this is unusual; the tune appeared at Mudcat well ahead of the lyrics. The song tells of a poet wandering around meeting beautiful women. I like the lines in the second verse where the woman asks him where are his shirt and his shoes, saying it's seldom she's seen a man wearing a sack for clothing come to court a woman. The fourth verse tells of women in various places in North Donegal. "Dis" is the same as "beirt" orin Scots Gaelic "dithis", two people. From the notes below, you will gather that people used to sing this song with several verses of this ilk. Nowadays it would seem they choose one verse connected with their own locale. I don't know for sure if Clannad sang the same verses as Albert Fry, but it seems likely.
from singing of Albert Fry, Gael-Linn records:
SEACHRÁN CHAIRN tSIALL
Ar tharraingt siar go Carn tSiail Domh
Bheannaíos féin go preab don mhaighdean
A chúileann fáinneach, má thug mé grá duit
Níl siúd áit ó iochtar Fhánad
Mánus Ó Baoill Ceolta Gael 2 (Mercier, 1986) had these same verses S Ó Baoghill et al Cnuasacht de Cheoltaí Uladh (1944) has 4 verses; the first two are the same as those given above. Breandán Ó Buachalla Nua Duanaire 2 (Dublin, 1976) has a different but closely related version, based mainly on a manuscript archived. in the Belfast Public Library. The first two verses are very close to those given above. Although he only published 6 verses, ó Buachalla says that most versions have over 20 verses - with many of the verses consisting mainly of names of places the poet has travelled and trades he has pursued. There are many versions of this song. Ó Buachalla cites a book about the song: S Laoide. Seachrán Chairn tSiadhail (Dublin, 1904), as well as documents in University College Dublin M 20,13 c 1852); the National Library of Ireland G 802, 23 c 1850; Royal Irish Academy 3 B 38, 46 c 1850, and Belfast Public Library (P) XVII, 46 c 1850 In sources G (National Library) and M (UCD), Art Mac Bionaid wrote that the song was attributed to Micheál ó hIr, while in B (RIA) and P (Belfast Library) it is said that the author was Toireach Rua ó Dónaill . ó Buachalla credits ó Dónaill. Toirealach Ó /Mac Dónaill who was born near Dungannon, Tyrone early in the 18th century. Little is know about Mac Dónaill but it is said he was killed by a group of soldiers when he was only 23 years old. (B. Ó Buachalla. Nua Duanaire 2. with reference to Ó Muirgheasa. Dhá Chéad de Cheoltaibh Uladh (Dublin, 1934) and é Ó Doibhlin Domhnach Mór (Omagh, 1969) Éinri Ó Muirgheasa writing about 'seachrán' poetry in "Céad de Cheoltaí Uladh" (1915): "The seachrán like the aisling was a well-known class of composition in Irish poetry. Fairies were supposed to carry human beings all around Ireland in the course of one night, or even as far as Rome and back again. This was called a 'seachrán' or 'straying'. Every district had, up to the beginning of the present generation, stories of such nocturnal travels made by someone in that neighbourhood. But the great use of the Seachrán to the poet was that it enabled him to show off his knowledge of geography. Maps and geographies did not form part of the equipment of a hedge school, so that a knowledge of a number of place-names, and an idea of the location of these places, passed off as something very learned in these days. And the poem itself was more a lesson in geography than anything else. Then many of the poets were of the Goldsmith type, wanderers who had seen many places, and had heard stories from other travellers of the places they had not seen, so that in some of these poems we get characteristic touches in reference to the places that only one who had been to the place could supply." |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 09 Jun 02 - 04:38 AM Well, wasn't I blind to miss the first posting - I could at least have typed out another version instead of repeating verses! I am wondering if Port Lairge derives from a Seachrán. If it does, the earlier longer version should be available somewhere in manuscript or printed form. |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: GUEST,Seamus Date: 24 Jan 13 - 07:26 PM Just stumbled across this. The thread is probably long forgotten but in case future seekers come here, better late than never... To alison and the others trying to make out the time signature -- Gaelic music, particularly Gaelic songs, often change tempo unexpectedly and in ways not connected to Western music, due to the nature of the music itself (which is in some ways more eastern than Western), and due to the artistic sensibility of the old generation of native Gaelic singers and their native audiences, in which the musical aspects are secondary to the more important aspect of the telling of the tale or poem. Therefore, tempo might change quite dramatically as the singer emphasizes a phrase to make it stand out. (In this it is similar to the more artistic renditions of some European bel canto music.) I have sometimes had trouble making sound engineers (and non-Gaelic musicians, even from Ireland) understand this aspect of the music. Anyway, to add to Philippa's masterful summary, here is what seems to me to be a fairly good translation of the Clannad version: As I was going out to Carn tSiail, to the annual fair on the feast of Great (St.) Mary (i.e., The Assumption), it happened that a young woman came toward me, as she pensively passed me by. It seemed to me that all sense had left me, as if deluded or the worse for drink; it looked to me as though the bright sun were dark, compared to the radiance in her cheeks like roses. With a start I greeted the maiden, without no trace of sense in my voice. I inquired of her if there was a man in Ireland whom she would choose over me in her path. She asked of me where was my shirt, my wig, my beaver hat, not to mention my shoes; that she had rarely seen a sack as clothes on a man who'd entice young girls. There's not a place from here to Min a' Lábáin, where I haven't been in love with a woman or two, a woman in the Rosses over in Min 'a Marach, from Gleann Ailne to Mucais Mhor, a pair in Baollach, a pair in Báineach, a woman in Aran and one by Gweedore, from Letterkenny to Ballydavid, and to Coillidh Mhánais along the way. I was in Moneymore, in Caislean Cabha, in Baile Uí Dhálaigh and in Lisnaskea; I have been in Monahan and at the Grainsi and at Droichead Chúl Aine for over a year. Last night I happened to be in Drogheda and tonight I'm here around Carn tSial, and now if you don't prefer me to men of affairs, here's my hand to you and I'll travel on. |
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Subject: RE: Seachran Charn tSiail From: Felipa Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM According to this aricle Tarlach Rua Mac Donaill of Co Tyrone, first half of 18th c., composed Seachrán Charn tSiadhail (older spelling) with 6 verses but it became widespread in the folk tradition and many more verses were added https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarlach_Rua_Mac_D%C3%B3naill Tarlach Rua Mac Dónaill http://treasureyourexceptions.com/mcwilliam__carnteel.html gives just this verse with translation - but it's the verse that isnt in the verses from Albert Fry added to this discussion earlier: Bhí mé í Muine Mór is i gCaiseal Caifill, I mBaile Uí Dhálaigh is i Lios na Sciath Bhí mé i Muineacháin is ar a'Ghráinsigh In Droichead Chúl Aine le corradh is bliain De réir mar a tharla i nDroichead Atha mé Anocht atá mé fá Charn tSiail. Anois más rogha leat ar fheara Fáil mé Seo mo lámh duit, bím ag triall. I was in Moneymore and Castlecaulfield, In Ballygawley and Lisnaskea, I was in Monaghan and in Grainseach, And in Droichead Chúl Aine for much of the year And as I chanced to be in Drogheda, Tonight I'm here in Carnteel, And if I'm your choice of the men of Ireland, Give me your hand, love, and lets be away! |
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