Tech: Fast Fret

Subject: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:27 AM

What's the general opinion on products like Fast Fret and String Glide ?

I used Fast Fret on both mandolin and banjo, when it ran dry I couldn't be bothered with another and honestly can't say that it made any difference to the life of my stings or smoother playing.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GLoux
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:59 AM

I have friends who swear by Fast Fret or similar products, but personally, I've never been convinced they are better than just wiping down your strings before putting the guitar back in its case, which is what I do.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM

I like the feel of the fretboard and the strings after they have been cleaned with FastFret, and there is no question that a vigorous application of Fast Fret will revivify strings which have gone dead, (albeit the revitalization doesn't last for more than a few tunes.)

When the applicator runs dry I just spray it with WD40, which seems to achieve the same effect.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:32 PM

Ditto, Murray.
I didn't know that about WD-40, though.
My applicator is usually too shredded to keep using.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:42 PM

Ug... I wouldn't let WD-40 come in contact with ANY fret-board I liked even a little bit...

FastFret and such.. the little exp I've had with them, I don't like the stuff...

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:58 PM

What do you think the WD40 is going to do to your fretboard, Clinton ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:02 PM

It's the not knowing that bothers me...

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM

Most luthiers will caution you NEVER to use ANY oil on your fretboard!
"Any", as in WD-40, lemon oil, gun oil, olive oil, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

Slim the guitarist in the Hamsters (R&B, Hendrix, ZZ top covers) only uses WD-40, gallons of the stuff. I wouldn't worry about the fretboard, but what is it doing to his fingers?

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:16 PM

WD40 is a mineral oil, and is "not a good thing" on any wood product. It's basically kerosine with some additives. Wiping the strings with a stick of warm butter would do less damage to the wood (not a recommended practice).

Mineral based "lubricants" are not generally compatible with vegetable (wood) parts. They generally will cause weakening/softening of the wood.

Vegetable lubricants nearly all harden - sooner or later - when exposed to air, and hence must be used with some caution and only in appropriate places.

Animal fats are mildly destructive to wood, but don't usually harden; hence the use in things like cork grease for the joints on your clarinet. They do eventually "change the woodiness" of even the cork - which isn't very "woody" to begin with.

I've been told, but haven't confirmed, that FastFret and similar products are basically a "silicone grease" which is an artificial product neither animal, vegetable, nor mineral in the usual sense. It may be assumed that the makers haven't been sued over their effects on instruments. Suit your own taste about using them, I suppose.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM

Didn't Rick F tell folks to Lemon Oil their fret boards once a year or so?

Thanks for confirming my concerns about WD40 though... it sure didn't SEEM like a good thing to put on wood...

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:34 PM

One effect of oil on the fingerboard is that it (or at least some oils) can work down around the frets, loosening them, and making reseating or replacement of frets difficult or impossible.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:34 AM

I do use lemon oil to clean the fret boards when changing strings, a quick rub down the vigorously wipe off, I've don this for many years with no ill effects, it certainly protects from sweat.

I could percieve no difference after using FastFret.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST,Gary D
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

Actually, lemon oil is recommended by the majority of guitar builders.

It's worthwhile to apply a small amount to ebony fretboards, in particular, ( once a year should do ). This is because ebony dries out quickly leading to the potential for shrinkage and cracking .

Rosewood boards less commonly need any such treatment, being more absorbent of natureal oils from the players fingers, however, it is quite often on the list of things to do with either some newer guitars straoght off production or with instruments that have dried out for one reason or another.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Mooh
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

A knew a guy who restored watches and used his nose and forehead grease all the time.

I keep some FF around when students have refused to invest in new strings and the grime prevents smooth finger movement. As for Finger Ease, I just tossed the only can I ever bought and it lasted more than ten years I think, mostly on others' instruments. Not sure if I'll get more.

There must be a good natural product that can be made at home for less.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Highlandman
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM

I have always used a store-boughten "guitar polish" like Gibson or GHS on my 31-year-old J-50. I give it a good going over when I change strings and then keep the slightly damp cloth in my case (NOT in contact with the guitar), which then I use to wipe down the strings after playing. (The cloth, not the case.) I have no idea if it helps the string life but it does seem to cut down on the finger-grabbing crud that otherwise grows on my strings. Haven't had any issues with the fingerboard or frets in all this time.
As for WD-40, realize that many electrics have the fingerboards completely lacquered over, on top of the fret wires, and will be pretty impervious to activities that would trash an acoustic fingerboard. Caveat polishor.
-HM

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

If DaveO's luthiers don't recommend any oil on the fretboard because it can work in down around the frets, ..then I wonder what they would recommend using on fretboards to keep them from getting dry. Greasy fingers don't seem to provide enough to keep 'boards from getting that weathered look from time to time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: PennyBlack
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:48 PM

Don't like fast fret - but since using Elixir string, wouldn't need it anyhow.

PB

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 02:51 PM

You would have to immerse your fretboard in WD40 for a week before encountering any adverse effects.

The whole point about Fast Fret (whether augmented by WD40 or not)is that you wipe it on and WIPE IT OFF. The minute amount that comes in contact with the fretboard isn't going to do squat to your frets or your fretboard.

I have always used it on all my guitars , and the fretboards are still as hard as they were thirty years ago.

I only wish I could say the same for me ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:38 PM

I've been using Fast Fret for about 9 or 10 years now, and it has had no adverse effect on any of my guitar necks, fretboards, or bodies, and it DOES brighten the strings for another couple of sets' playing.
In Earl Scruggs' banjo book, he mentioned that he ran the fingers of his fretting hand through his brilliantined hair before going on stage, to facilitate smoother playing.
If I had hair, I'd be out looking for brilliantine.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:41 PM

Why not:

Replace the strings on a regular basis. I've been pretty broke in my life but I have usually been able to find $6.00 to 10.00 for a set of Martin Bronze lites.

Dress the finger board twice a year with an appropriate material to keep the rosewood or ebony from checking. Like when you have the guitar guy do a set up adjustment.

No anxiety over stray hydro or flouro carbons hurting you or the environment.

Don

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:29 PM

I used to use Fast Fret but I lost it somehow a few months ago and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

When my stings go dead, I give the coiled ones a bit of a boil!

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 12:28 AM

yeah, that seems more trouble than it's worth tho .... if strings need to be boiled to bring them back to life for a few strums more, then it's high time to get new strings.... cheap sets can be bought off the web here, for example, for about the same price as it would cost in energy to boil them.

My humble opinion, of course. To each his own.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 05:21 PM

By the time you pay the shipping they are no bargain.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:27 PM

....not bad if you buy them in bulk (a dozen sets)

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:30 PM

(in the webstrings link if you buy a minimum $12 purchase shipping is free to the USA) ...$12 is about what you'd pay for one halfway decent set of strings

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST,The Barden of England at work
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 05:49 AM

I have been using webstrings for the last 3 years, and considering that 12 sets of Phosphour Broze strings cost me about 20 pounds sterling including postage, I think that less than 2 pounds per set is a bargain. At that price I can afford to change them often, and I must say they haven't let me down yet. They are advertised as American made too, which is good enough for me.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:36 AM

Fast Fret is a poor excuse for not changing strings in any case. I carry one with me, but I only ever use it immediately prior to a gig, if my strings need changing soon, just to brighten the sound up for a few songs - that's all. In the last 2 years I used it three times, I think; and I changed the strings as soon as I could afterwards anyway.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM

UK folk clubs tend not to have air-con (smile), and playing the guitar in some hot sticky upstairs room can be made a tad easier if you have some fast fret to hand. Not much of a problem if you languish inside the 1st 3 or 4 frets of course.......

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: mooman
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 11:47 AM

I've still got a tin from about 20 years ago that I haven't finished yet! I always wipe my strings down individually after playing and that seems to work fine.

Lemon oil is quite good for cleaning gunge off fretboards and I used it often as a repairer (I think almond oil with a little added vitamin E oil to prevent oxidation is even better) but it should be applied sparingly and infrequently with a piece of cloth rubbing sideways (i.e. parallel to the frets), preferably when the strings are off.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Jon W.
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM

A couple of months ago at our instrument builders association meeting we did a workshop on fretting. The person who presented the part on dressing frets owns the music store where we meet and has been repairing and setting up guitars for years. Much of the fret dressing was done with liberal quantities of mineral oil (the kind used as a laxative) thinned 50% with mineral spirits (paint thinner) as a lubricant and fretboard preservative. All of the books I've read on lutherie recommend oiling the fretboard. Both Stewart MacDonald and Luthier's Mercantile International sell fretboard oil. So I don't have any qualms about using mineral or lemon oil on fretboards. BTW the fretboard we fretted and dressed is rosewood and is now solidly attached to my most recently completed banjo.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:05 PM

A "good" piece of wood, as would likely be used for making an instrument, or as should be found in an instrument that's been well cared for, should be relatively "full" with natural oils or with proper "replenishment" oil. Almost any oil you might use for dressing your frets should not penetrate too much into the wood, so mineral oil there isn't too much of an offense. Mineral oils do have some tendency to degrade the wood, if too much gets soaked in and is left for long periods of time, but a fretboard really doesn't carry a lot of stress load, so it's unlikely that you'd notice any effect from reasonable amounts of mineral oil for cleaning and smoothing.

One of the characteristics that made the "old ebony" ideal for fingerboards and fretboards was an extremely high natural oil content. That kind of ebony is seldom available now, and the commonly used "ebony," while from the same tree family(s), doesn't have the natural oil content. When intended for fretboards and other "ebony" parts, at least some of the modern wood - and rosewood for similar uses - is pressure treated during the curing process to add oil content similar to the natural oils of the older materials. Dyes are often added to get a desired color, or more uniform color, at the same time.(It's much like the pressure treatment for fence posts, but with vegetable oils instead of insecticide.)

As long as your wood is appropriately "fat" with proper oils, nothing you put on it is likely to displace much of the existing material, at least other than at the surface. In addition, the neck and fingerboard are relatively "nonacoustic" components, so you're unlikely to affect playability much even if you do slightly change the properties. If you run into a "dried out" wood that needs replenishment of it's natural (or artificially impregnated) oils, or for routine use on soundboard parts like the belly and back of your guitar, you should think in terms of using only an appropriate vegetable oil, or a prepared product recommended by your instrument maker.

Mineral oil, WD40, and lemon oil should be thought of as "cleaners" and possilby as lubricants rather than as finish and/or impregnant materials. Lemon oil is favored by many simply because it's mostly volatile, it dissolves most dirt fairly well, and mostly wipes off pretty cleanly. Any residue that's left behind is more like a surface lubricant than a wood treatment. I have run into at least one old fiddle that had been "Pledged" so often the whole case smelled like a fruit vendor's stall. I had no reservations about stripping and refinishing, and the sound was significantly improved; but of course this wasn't exactly a Strad. Lemon oil isn't supposed to "build up," but eventually it, or anything else you use frequently, will.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

I rarely encounter the need for fretboard oil, and lemon oil has done the trick when needed, if I haven't been lazy and simply reached for the thinners always sitting on the workbench. I'd like to try mooman's almond/vitamin E oil though, sounds worthwhile.

That fretboard grunge can be lightly(!) scraped off with a soft(!) piece of plastic so as to not scrape the wood before finishing up with a solvent/oil. Lots of fretboards get too much crap to simply be dissolved quickly.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:30 PM

John, I would seriously like to see the evidence for your assertion that any manufacturer practises pressure treatment on ebony fretboards to increase the oil content.

Are you saying that the guitar manufacturers do this ?

Or are you saying that their suppliers do it ?

Either way, it's news to me .

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

Sorry, 1.30 post above was from me ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM

Murray -

Reports I've seen are rather dated, but the pressure treatment, or sometimes just a long immersion, was being done by the same people who did the first processing of fresh cut logs. Especially for instrument and cabinetry use, there's a lot of drying, curing, etc., involved, often even before the logs are cut into planks. They're usually not graded until after the first rough cuts.

The classic 1933 Identifying Wood, R. Bruce Hoadley, ©Taunton Press, (ISBN 0-942391-04-7 for the 1990 reprint) identified "ebony" as a single specific tree, Diospyros ebenum; but ca. 1992 the specialty wood retailers in the Seattle area refused to give their "ebony" a species specific identification, referring to what they had as "commercial ebony" that might come from any of a half dozen related trees. Samples available there were clearly from different kinds of trees, but I was assured that they'd all been properly "stabilized to standard (commercial) ebony properties." One of the dealers pulled out his "spec book" to show me the max/min limits on volatile and nonvolatile oil components for what he had, and a list of the tree species that could qualify, so I assume there is - or was - at least a trade association to regulate what could be called ebony(?) in his commercial market.

Some traditional ebony does still come out of Indonesia, and a luthiery supplier can get the original stuff for you - for the right price. A few years ago I was seeing some complaints about the quality of the "real ebony" people were getting. Good luther's ebony should have no visible "grain" at about 10x magnification, and should never show growth rings. A lot of what was apparently the right tree was being cut from way too far out in the bark. I don't know that that's been a concern recently, so maybe the market's more stable now - or maybe people just decided it didn't matter that much.

At least in the areas where I looked way back then, most cabinet shops only stocked the "substitutes." Luthiery houses also might have the substitutes, but would usually inform you - although not necessarily too emphatically - if a blank was other than the classic stuff.

Any oils used to impregnate the alternative woods usually would be taken from the same trees as the wood itself, just pressed or solvent extracted from the bark and heart (where the wood is prone to cracking) and "put back" into the good wood. If and when any such treatment was done, it usually would be before the logs are made into "lumber" and graded, since the oil/resin content is part of what determines the grade for woods like ebony.

I can't imagine that any luthier could afford to "make his own wood" this way. Many of them may maintain large stocks to permit aging and some additional curing according to their own preferences, but they shouldn't need to do any exotic processing. They buy it as ebony and sell it as ebony. If you buy ebony blanks from a luthiery supply house, and they sell them to you as "ebony (Diospyros ebenum)" you should expect to get the real thing. It is possible that a luthier might apply some dye to a less than perfectly black blank to get uniform color; but I don't know that even that is at all common. Any such coloring would have to be done on the finished part, since the first cut into a blank would show it up immediately.

The more common thing at the instrument maker's level is the use of another material, often dyed maple, for parts like fiddle pegs that were traditionally made of ebony. I haven't heard of any that lied about what they were doing, but they might neglect to mention it if you don't ask.

My information does come from what seemed credible sources, but is about 10 years old. International trade fluctuates, and "commercial names" for forest products probably wander around even more. Quite a few of the common names for woods are pretty non-specific, unless you choose to be picky about knowing what's being offered and demanding specific identification for what you buy. Even "spruce" can mean a half dozen significantly different kinds of woods, with wide variations in properties within each kind. Some of them make great instruments, and some don't even make good doghouses.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: van lingle
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:53 AM

I've got a 20 year old Lowden that Ive been using FF on for most of that time and the fretboard ebony is in perfect shape. I used to use clarinet bore oil and sometimes lemon oil on fretboards but they seem to collect grunge more easily and required more frequent cleanings whereas applying FF is about all the maintainence I perform nowadays and it works quite well on my newer instruments as well.
For strings I generally buy Newtones 6 sets at a time for about $8.00 per set w/shipping and they last so long it works out to be a bargain.
Interesting stuff, John. vl

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:36 PM

Always thought the stuff was a rip off.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:58 AM

Well now you know different!

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

I've never been much impressed with Fast Fret. However, two days ago I had a two hour plus gig outside in 98 degree temperatures and high humidity. I only survived because I was in shade. However, I sweated a great deal and I was beginning to stick to the strings. I had some Fast Fret in my gig bag. I took it out and applied it. It saved the day for me. I'll keep the Fast Fret around for outdoor gigs in the future.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Kaleea
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:34 PM

I never paid any attention to using anything at all on the fingerboard of my 1964 Gibson J45, except for a soft cloth, maybe an old dried up guitar polishing cloth years ago (like the 1970's). After I bought a new McSpadden Mountain Dulcimer with an ebony fingerboard, Lynn McSpadden told me to be sure to use Fast Fret "most every time" that I play. I did get the stuff, & I use it when I remember. I have rarely used the stuff on my guitar, cause I keep it in my Mountain Dulcimer case.

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM

Frank Ford at FRETS.COM recommends cleaning your fretboard with lemon oil but wiping it off straight away, this is what I always do.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:11 AM

Been playing one acoustic with ebony fingerboard for 18 years. This guitar has been gigged endlessly, and I have problems with hot hands in hot pubs/clubs - fast fret is an absolute must for me. Also clean with lemon oil.
The guitar has never needed any fretwork, and plays great. It's an easy guitar to play, but fast fret makes it even easier.
Recommended.......

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:57 AM

You must be a very gentle player or not play much, I needed a refret after four years on my newest mandolin.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

Fingerstylist/non-plectrummer, but play at least 3 nights every week, and endlessly in my spare time at home. I can bash 'em out as well. Maybe you're a tad heavy handed?

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM

Martin Carthy said he lost count on how many re-frets his old Martin has had.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:38 AM

Serves him right for buying a Martin

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:08 PM

......... and playing everything in the same key in open tuning

Subject: RE: Tech: Fast Fret
From: KateG
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:30 PM

For those of you who are interested, FastFret is pure mineral oil.

When my dog was a puppy she raided my music bag, stole the FretFret tube and proceeded to open the container and chew the applicator into joyous splinters before I caught her. Since the container didn't have any info about the toxicity of the compound I called the company and asked if there was a material safety data sheet for the product (an OSHA requirement in most factories). The customer service rep spoke to the proper people, they found the sheet, and informed me that the lubricant was standard mineral oil, and therefore non-toxic to my puppy.