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BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option

Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 09:25 AM
gnu 20 Jul 05 - 09:26 AM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM
Rapparee 20 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM
Uncle_DaveO 20 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM
Amos 20 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM
DMcG 20 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM
MBSLynne 20 Jul 05 - 10:14 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM
JennyO 20 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM
Noreen 20 Jul 05 - 10:29 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 10:42 AM
bfdk 20 Jul 05 - 10:56 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM
Rapparee 20 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM
TheBigPinkLad 20 Jul 05 - 11:27 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM
greg stephens 20 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM
TheBigPinkLad 20 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM
JennyO 20 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 11:36 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 12:06 PM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM
Rapparee 20 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM
Tannywheeler 20 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM
Amos 20 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM
MBSLynne 20 Jul 05 - 01:55 PM
skipy 20 Jul 05 - 06:34 PM
LilyFestre 20 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 07:04 PM
LilyFestre 20 Jul 05 - 07:14 PM
Shanghaiceltic 20 Jul 05 - 07:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 05 - 07:48 PM
Shakey 20 Jul 05 - 07:53 PM
GUEST 20 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM
Auggie 20 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM
Auggie 20 Jul 05 - 08:50 PM
LilyFestre 20 Jul 05 - 09:03 PM
dianavan 20 Jul 05 - 10:17 PM
LilyFestre 20 Jul 05 - 10:47 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jul 05 - 12:02 AM
John O'L 21 Jul 05 - 01:54 AM
Liz the Squeak 21 Jul 05 - 02:44 AM

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Subject: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:17 AM

The Professional Association of Teachers will be told at its meeting next week that the label of failure could undermine pupils' enthusiasm.

Liz Beattie, a retired teacher, will call on the association's annual gathering in Buxton, Derbyshire, to "delete the word 'fail' from the educational vocabulary to be replaced with the concept of 'deferred success'".

Is it me or has the world gone mad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:25 AM

Words (are successfully deferred) me


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: gnu
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:26 AM

Not you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM

LOL you can just imagine telling the cop with the positive breathalyser test in his hand that he has made a mistake, you haven't failed , just deferred your success.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM

It's not you and it's not the world. It's the idea that we have to protect children from reality.

This would mean that Hitler's attack on Russia, The "Atlantic Wall," the Vanguard space satellite, your attempt to put the moves on that young lady, that terrible moment in chemistry when the experiment exploded, the cake in which you used cement instead of flour, and a host of other things big and small, were "deferred successes."

"Well, folks, the home team was deferentially successful in their bid to take the national championship today."

"The President's policy in Urkganistan is a deferred success."


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM

Just more political correctitude. Kids need to recognize the real world, not have their little egos protected at all costs.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM

MZ Beattie is sadly mistaken. If you miss a curve and wrap your pickuop around a tree, with mortal consequences, it is NOT because you were "going to make the curve later".

Failing might well make a student less enthusiastic, and getting great grades makes him feel more enthusiastic. If it all just amounts to succeeding anyway, and failing equals succeeding deferred, then there should be no test. The teachers should not use them, because they will succeed sooner or later, so why bother?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM

Ruth Kelly - the Education Minister - awarded this idea "0 out of 10" on the radio today. It is hard to believe anyone thinks this a good idea, but evidently someone does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: MBSLynne
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:14 AM

Hehe Guest! I like that. I'm sure there must be lots of situations in which we could constructively use 'deferred success' instead of failure! I must put my mind to it! anyone else?

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:25 AM

Well I suppose if some people looked upon their marriage as a deferred success instead of a failure then there wouldn't be so many kids achieving deferred success in their exams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

Well, I don't think I'd be too impressed if I had an accident because my brakes deferred their success!

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:29 AM

In case anyone thinks this is how most UK teachers think I'd like to make it clear that the PAT whose conference Ms Beattie will speak at, represents a miniscule proportion of the teaching profession- perhaps for obvious reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM

Well, in a spiritual sense there perhaps are no failures, just learning experiences...but it depends on the context. I can see both pros and cons to the idea. If a sense of "failure" induces guilt or self-hatred in a person, that is not productive. If it induces a strong desire in the person to do better next time, that is great.

Hitler's attack on Russia was not "deferred success"...LOL! No, what is was, was this: a mistake. A HUGE, GIANT MISTAKE.

Don't confuse mistakes with failures to reach desirable goals. Mistakes are not worth repeating. Incomplete attempts in a useful direction are worth repeating and improving upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM

I take it all back, I'm a believer. I've just realised that England have been deferring their success at winning the Ashes until this summer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

I have been deferring my success at dating Winona Ryder for over a decade. Hell, 2 decades! I figure it's time...


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:42 AM

Little Hawk - you'll have to get up earlier if you catch her!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: bfdk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:56 AM

So, the bloke I was dead keen on at 20 but never scored was not a failure, but a "deferred success"..? I sincerely hope the success isn't imminently pending, as I've by now forgotten more or less all about him except the fact that he existed, so the success may well be deferred indefinitely where I'm concerned ;-))

Anyway, in Denmark we have a concept called "the curling generation" referring to the kids whose doting and protective parents run ahead of them and "sweep the field" so as to remove any obstacle from their paths. For my part, I don't think this is healthy, as learning to handle minor failures will prepare you for handling major ones, should you be unlucky enough to encounter any - and most of us do at some stage or other during life.

I don't know, but to me the things I achieved on my own stand out much brighter than anything that was ever handed to me on a platter. If we keep protecting kids to the extent indicated here, we also bar them from fighting the battles on their own - and experiencing the thrill of succeeding.

Just my two pennies' worth.

Best wishes,

Bente


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Just my two pennies' worth.

And very good value, if I may say so


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM

Yes, removing all obstacles from a child's path is a very faulty idea. My Mother tried to do that in my case. It resulted in a state of arrested development that kept me socially handicapped in certain regards for a far longer time than might have been...

On the other hand, it's not helpful to criticize kids and make them feel like failures either.

It's a very fine line. Raising children well and wisely is probably the most challenging job in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM

Oh, Hitler's invasion was a mistake, but since he didn't achieve his goals it was also a deferred success. I really would prefer if he didn't try again. In fact, I'd prefer it if he stayed dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Uh-uh. I have it on good authority that he reincarnated, and is a social worker in Chicago. He's busily trying to undo his past karma.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:27 AM

I think some of you have missed the point. She was saying that labelling a kid 'failure' has no merit. She suggests using the CONCEPT of deferred success would go some way to promoting an interest in continuing to study rather than jacking it in. How can that be bad? I hope you people aren't teachers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM

I hope you people aren't teachers.

Nope. We're part of the group that can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

Well, I'd decided a while back that I wasnt actually going to get twenty wickets against Australia at Lords, with my demon slow-building. I am extremely heartened to find out that this glorious achievement has merely been deferred. I wonder when it will be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

Ah, the old ones are the best ones. Did you learn that at school?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM

I hope you people aren't teachers

I used to be, and fortunately, I still didn't lose my sense of humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:36 AM

That's Englands problem we have lots of builders but not many bowlers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM

I agree, BPL. To call someone a "failure" is pointless and not helpful in the least. I remember kids who were caught in that syndrome, and they mostly left school early and ended up either in some dead-end job or on the dole or in jail. Negative thinking produces negative results in people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:06 PM

A failure does not have to lead to negative thinking. Positive outlook and self esteem are not necessarily damaged because you fail something. But, if you fail an exam then it's pointless to pretend otherwise; how do you fix something if people are telling you it's not broken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM

Failing is an introduction to the adult world. Failing and trying harder to pass next time is necessary to produce citizens that will be a part of society with something worthwhile to give.

We may fail at job interviews, fail driving tests, fail to get accepted onto a college course, fail at relationships, fail at eye sight tests, fail at marathon running, fail at dieting fail ad nauseum.

Failing isn't bad. Not trying again or not accepting some things are beyond our reach is bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

"A man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a heaven for?" -- R. Browning.

"You'll never know until you try." -- My mother.

"Only the dead stay down." -- Rodeo proverb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

Amen, Uncle Dave!!! Taken up preachin' the gospel, have you? Don't give up.       Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM

A good point about the semantic loading of calling someone "failed" -- it can actually be quite disabling if they take you seriously. But I would expect a good teacher to know the difference between an instance of failing, say a test, and labeling someone a failure!! There's no question that promoting getting up and getting it right next time is a lot healthier than promoting the notion that one "is a failure" or "has failed" without offering any hope to the situation. That's just bad teaching.

But that doesn't mean you should pretend that no failing happens.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: MBSLynne
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:55 PM

So can you die of "heart deferred success"?

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: skipy
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:34 PM

Our children must learn to fail & learn to acept failure in life, failure in love, failure is all around us all the time, if we cannot fail we cannot win, if we cannot learn at an early age to fail & rise again then then we cannot win!
Skipy
Withy loads of fails behind me, but a few wins too - the ones that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

I think it really falls into the hands of each individual teacher. A child may fail at adequately mastering a new skill BUT that is an opportunity for both the teacher and the student to take a closer look at where the troubles are and make corrections. A child who fails an exam and is shown where mistakes were made WITHOUT CONDESCENDING COMMENTS will be just fine. Sure they are going to feel bad that they didn't understand something, that's just human nature...but when that same child, who is already feeling bad faces embarrassment and nasty comments from the teacher....this is where the self esteem takes a nose dive.

I am a preservice teacher who has spent over 10 years as a social worker in the schools...I have seen it both ways. Those teachers who feel it is necessary to belittle a child have no business in the classroom. I disagree with Beattie and I also disagree with Shakey's comment about being a teacher....inferring that those of us who chose to teach do so because we "can't." I would encourage anyone who thinks that the comment, "Those who can't, teach." to spend some time in their local community schools to observe teachers at work, what they have to work with, the lack of support that they receive, the standards they must meet along with many other pressures. That kind of remark shows a HUGE disrespect for folks who spend their lives devoted to teaching the children of the world.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 07:04 PM

I have the utmost respect for teachers and the best ones, as far as I remember, had a sense of humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 07:14 PM

Go push someone else's buttons, I'm not really interested. Teachers work their asses off far too much to put up with stupid comments from people like you. I don't find that kind of disrespect funny and can only imagine the level of immaturity it would take to do so.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 07:31 PM

This is similar to an idea a good few years ago of not having competitive sports in schools, no winners, no loosers, so that the poor wee mites might feel better.

Life is about meeting obstacles and overcoming them, labelling them differently does not remove them. Sadly the world today is competitive and hard and calling a spade 'a long thing for extracting dirt' is not going to help the younger generation.

On the other hand I was laughing at this as I can now report to my boss that last months sales figures for China were a deferred success. I am expecting a two or at the most three word reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 07:48 PM

I have worked for many years as a school caretaker, and have for most of that time felt undervalued., but I know of no group so undervalued as teachers.

It is a miracle that most of them DO retain their sense of humour in the face of attacks from government, parents, and well meaning do gooders who think, without reason, that they could do better.

There is a world of difference between calling a child a failure and telling him that he has failed in a set task. There is a world of difference between calling a child stupid, and telling him he has done something stupid.

I have yet to meet a teacher who is unaware of this difference. I have, however, heard many parents call children stupid, or failure, usually their own children. We live in times when many parents can't be bothered to work with their kids to help them learn, but are quick to complain about teachers when the kids don't achieve.

Let's leave the education to qualified educators, and not hedge them in with more and more trendy ideas from people who haven't a clue what teaching is about.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Shakey
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 07:53 PM

"people like you"

umm, i make one comment and you know me, you must be one hell of a teacher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

Average students taking the easy option of a teaching degree for the long holidays have undermined their profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Auggie
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM

"the easy option of a teaching degree" ??

Average undergrad GPA in 2003 at the University of Wisconsin/Madison for those accepted into the School of Education was 3.84

Just how far in the past are you living, Guest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Auggie
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 08:50 PM

And while I'm at it

Shakey. I didn't think Michelle's post implied that she "knew you". Only that she was inclined to include you among those who make disrespectful, stupid comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:03 PM

Well said Auggie!

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:17 PM

I agree that report cards should not include the word, 'fail'. It can easily become a self-fulfilling prophecy if internalized at a young age.

Children are always learning something. Maybe its not what the school is assessing that term, but they are learning. Maybe they are learning to deal with social or emotional issues. They need to be given the time to 'turn around' and we should not apply the same standards to children that adults must face in the workplace. I'm talking about elementary aged students.

We use the term, "in progress" or "has not met the widely held expectations for his/her grade level". This gives the student the opportunity to re-think their performance. Failure implies finality. I think that all students should have the opportunity to 'pull up their socks' but at the same time, parents need to know that their child is not producing at grade level.

Whats wrong with 'high, average and needs improvement?'

Thanks to all who have mentioned that teaching is not "an easy option." It is actually, 'a calling". Nobody could survive the system unless you believe that education is societies best hope. Its a thankless job but when a student 'gets it', its all worth it - nevermind the public, the parents and the administration. Dealing with a zillion 'bosses' is what you really get paid for. Its the 'job' part of being a teacher.

When I attended University there were 800 applicants for 200 seats in the professional development portion of the teaching program. To be considered, you needed a very high, grade point average and experience working with children. The waiting list was very, very long. I would hardly call that a 'can't' attitude or an 'easy option'. When you are in professional development, you are put under the microscope. You are videotaped and critiqued for eight months. What other jobs require such a high level of competence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: LilyFestre
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:47 PM

No kidding! At the University I am currently attending, a 3.0 is the very minimum GPA accepted in the School of Education. If you fall below that at any time, for any reason, you are OUT...period...no second chances. We are observed teaching lessons by our professors, classmates, outside teachers, students and visitors...and that is before we ever get the chance to teach! We are video taped, recorded, critiqued, self critiqued...all kinds of hoops to jump through...don't forget about all the legal stuff, the actual material being taught, statewide standards, assessments, professional competency exams, papers, projects, infinite lesson plans and presentations! Oh yeah, then comes Observation and Participation, Student Teaching and Professional Seminars. Oh yes, we are also STRONGLY advised to participate in professional teaching associations (PSEA) or the Council For Exceptional Children.

The standards are challenging, as well they should be. Teachers have one of the most important jobs in the world.

"Average" people don't make the cut and those that aren't truly immersed in the learning process of becoming a teacher simply don't make it through.

Michelle, proud member of Pi Lamda Theta (International Honor Society and Professional Association in Education)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 12:02 AM

Life, I guess, is a defered demise,


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 01:54 AM

Life is very different from learning about life. To be told, in writing, that you have failed in learning about life is very different from not getting the job you applied for. There will be other jobs and you know it.
The schoolkid who gets his exam result back and it says he failed is not interested in knowing there will be others tests he may pass. To him he's a loser and that's that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Dear, failure is not an option
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 02:44 AM

Lily - it's from an old adage (and not necessarily something I agree with):

"Them as can, do; them as can't, teach and them as won't, teach teachers."

It basically divides the workforce into three groups. There are those good with physical abilities (the 'do's), some are good with mental abilities (the can't dos) and some who have no particular merit but do stuff anyway (they usually end up as middle management - the people who are responsible but don't actually do anything sensible or practical).

I'm a doer. I can do things, but there's no way I could teach someone else to do it. I can impart information but I cannot interest them and make them want to learn more. My friend Ian is a 'can't' - he does stuff, but he can also explain what he's doing and make it sensible and intelligible for technical morons like me.

The world needs both the 'doers' and 'can'ts', it's the 'won'ts' that are maybe not so useful (Remember Douglas Adams' Golgafrincham "B" Ark?)!

Hope that makes you feel better?

LTS
98


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