BS: Here we go again in London

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Shakey...your getting confused again.

I'm not interested in making excuses for terrorists from the East or West!!
I am interested in making sure that the condition does not escalate into a racial/religious war in the cities of the UK.

I believe our foreign policy was wrong and strong arm tactics now will only inflame the situation.
Our foreign policy is of course driven by the need for us to continue our wasteful and materialistic lifestyle, but we'll leave that aside for the moment.

Dont be too hasty in giving away your famous spade by the way, judging by your performance on this thread you may have to use it some day to earn your living ...Howzattt!! Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:54 AM

Keith A of Hertford, I don't understand your question, although I suspect that InOBU has answered it in his 23 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

inOBU I agree with you completely about our involvemnt in the war. I just find it difficult to reconcile people's criticism of the way the police acted in this particular situation without having an alternative idea. That isn't directed at you.

It seems the shot guy was unrelated to the bombings. I didn't vote for Blair but am living with the consequence of his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM

This proves that even a totally anonymous Guest can make excellent observations. I feel exactly the same--I sure as hell not only never voted for Bush --for plenty of good reasons--- or anybody else I thought might support his criminally stupid war, but, as I've said before, as a registered Republican I called the White House hot line before the invasion and warned them that if Bush invaded Iraq, every picture of a dead woman or child broadcast on al-Jazeera would result in more terrorists all over the world.

QED.

Now we all have to live with the consequences.

But that still does not make it all right for civilians in the UK or the US to be blown up.

Anybody who thinks it does is just not capable of rational thought, and therefore not worth debating.

I still think Bush should be impeached, convicted and removed from office immediately, just for discontinuing, at the behest of a few US firms who do not want the workers' compensation liability, 2 programs in Russia which were securing nuclear material.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:28 PM

Obviously he should also have been impeached, convicted and removed for starting the Iraq war--but it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:32 PM

We are now in the age of 'anything goes'

'Luck' will have a lot to do with things in future.

... for innocent civilians.

... as well as innocent civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM

Hopefully , the facts WILL be publicised soon !

And one of the facts that has now been confirmed is that the man shot five times while he was pinned to the ground had nothing whatsoever to do with the bombers. He'd just had the ill fortune to come out of a block of flats (an apartment building as they say in the States), one of which was under surveillance. And when he was challenged by a bunch of strangers in plain clothes he made the mistake of running away.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

Mc Grath he made the mistake of vaulting a barrier into a tube station and running onto a train. Not quite as simple as 'running away.'

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:31 PM

If you think you are being chased by a bunch of thugs, running into a station full of people and getting on a train might seem quite a sensible thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM

I have no idea where the chase started, but knowing Stockwell station it is the last place I would have run into. I would have run into the very busy road outside it, or one of the numerous shops next to it, or into the huge pub opposite it, or up to the manned ticket box that he ran past to vault the barrier, No I wouldn't have run into a tube, vaulted a barrier and boarded a train.

I think it was a tragic error of judgment from all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:53 PM

"BTW David, Carol is right. South Asians or Pakistanis or more closely related to Aryans. That is if you buy into the old racist theory of three distinct races..."

Erm..so are you saying Carol buys into the old racist theory of three distinct races, or what?

Let us not get into whether or not race does exist, because quite frankly, i would wipe the floor with you. lolol.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

And Jesse Owens proved it

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

Erm..so are you saying Carol buys into the old racist theory of three distinct races, or what?

Actually, I don't. But I am willing to go along with established orthodoxy on the subject when it comes to describing how the scientific community currently approaches the subject of "race". Which is what I was doing when I made my post on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

Myself and others on this thread have been wrongly accused of excusing terrorism.

Many of these same accusers are now trying to justify a cold blooded killing of an innocent man in front of dozens of terrified passengers.

I used to think a fresh breeze blew through the pages of Mudcat, these days the fetid stench of hatred permeates the threads.
I thought Folkies to be open minded, caring..for their brothers and sisters, and above all, supporters of truth and justice.

The opinions on this thread sicken me.

Yes "welcome to the police state" most of you will be quite happy here.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

"most of you" - I think if you checked on the actual numbers of posts and of posters on these issues and how they've stacked up, you'd want to revise that opinion akenaton.

Especially if you leave out the nameless GUESTs (on both sides), since there's no way of knowing how many or how few people are in behind the mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:15 PM

BNP seeks to make capital out of bombings (Guardian)

It's not only about Iraq (Guardian)

What it adds up to is a more mixed picture than either Blair or the anti-war movement has allowed. Iraq has played a key part - of course it has - in angering large numbers of young Muslims, pulling them towards an extremist message once confined to the lunatic fringe. But that message is not only about Iraq, Afghanistan or even the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza - and we delude ourselves if we think it is.

Why I link to the first article is obvious: There's no need to help them.

I like in particular the second article, for it shows in which way the analysis predominant among Mudcaters falls short of understanding the basic motivation of the war the terrorists feel themselves to have to fight.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:41 PM

I agree with a lot of what that second article has to say, even about the motivations of the most extreme Islamists. Where I would tend to differ with some people on that subject is simply that I believe that just about everything the governments of the US and Britain have done, ostensibly for the purpose of "defeating" these extremist Islamists has, in actuality, had the effect of assisting them in their efforts, and making them far bigger and stronger than they would be otherwise. The US and Britain are getting the exact opposite results from the ones they say they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:50 PM

Ake,

On the worst day of your life you have never been a racist. That is just not you. If anyone said that--well, they're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM

Apologies McGrath and Bruce, I actually posted to the wrong thread.

I had intended to respond to some of the disgraceful comments on the other thread pertaining to the shooting in London.

I know there are some good people here and I include you both in their number, but there are also many who emerge from under their stones at times like these, spouting venom.

They forget that the bombings on the underground, the execution of the young man by trigger happy police are part of a much bigger picture directed by neo cons in America and Thatcherites in Britain.
I believe this to be the most dangerous period of modern history including the "Cold War" and we must be much more careful about how we react to terrorism. The short sighted among us still babble of "standing up to terror"...Smashing the cells... Kill them all!

Its unworkable, the terrorists are among us ,they could be our sons or daughters,our neighbours, people who service our cars or serve our food.
If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas and continue with our policy in Iraq, the next bomb could be silent and kill thousands and still we would be no nearer to defeating terrorism.

We who try to understand why terrorism exists, are abused for being "apologists", but in reality those who support policy which makes terrorism more likely to occur are the biggest danger to our people.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas

What are you referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:10 PM

"...the basic motivation of the war the terrorists feel themselves to have to fight."

The issues that radicalise people aren't necessarily the same as issues and the causes that they subsequently adopt. Once people have got sucked into identifying with a radical ideology, the human tendency is to take on board all kinds of other stuff.

I'm sure there were all kinds of ordinary Germans who got into supporting the Nazis because they were angry about being unemployed, or about political corruption or liked the pageantry and the strength through joy stuff. And went on from there to be drawn into other things.

So there is no contradiction between pointing to the war on Iraq as a crucial factor in driving many Muslims into the arms of the extremists, and recognising that the extremists have a wider agenda than Iraq. (In fact my conviction all along has been that while most Muslims - indeed most people outside of the USA - deplored the war, for the people at the heart of "Al Qaeda" it was something to be welcomed as an enormous success.)

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:37 AM

Ake,

let me tell you what I consider a very fundamental omission (and mistake) in your thinking when posting about terrorism in this and many other threads. I see a similar mistake in some others' thinking (or at least argumentation).

Your thinking reduced to a very short summary (it may look like a parody due to the shortness, but that is not my intention):
(1) Understand the reasons for terrorism. Understand what they fight for and what grieves them.
(2) Remove everything that grieves them and do nothing that makes terrorism (more) likely.

At no moment I have seen in your thinking any indication of the third stage (between stage 1 and stage 2), namely an evaluation whether one wants (or should want) to give in to a demand or not.

Two examples from history:
(1) The British govenments confronted with terrorism from the IRA (I only look at that part now though there has been loyalist terrorism as well) had to try to understand (I completely agree with that part of your thinking) the reasons for the terrorism from the IRA and to look at the demands. One very big reason was the treatment of the nationalist community by the unionists (burning down houses, forceful evictions, gerrymandering 'majorities', differential treatment in housing decisions and in jobs etc). I consider it a very big mistake by many successive govenments not to have reacted early and quickly to these demands even against the will of a unionist majority. One big demand of the IRA was a united Ireland. I consider it a correct decision by the Britsh governments not to give in to this demand (against the will of a small majority) and to insist that such a result (united Ireland) only can be reached by parliamentary and democratic means.

(2) When the British government was confronted with demands from the Nazi government (verbatim or by action) it tried for a long time to appease the Nazi government. They also could have given them Poland or whatever came after without acting. They did act and as a result of their action many British people died and increased terrorism (by bombs from above) was one of the results. But I think they did the right thing at that time. Any politics that has as the sole aim to reduce the number of own people killed in the short run is predictable and invites to further (terrorist) threats.

And in that sense 'standing up to terror' is a good idea. There should be no immediate reward for trying to enforce an aim by terror.

If one reads what the hard core of those fundamentalist Muslim terrorists really want one can only say: We'll never agree to give you that (caliphate, sharia, treatment of women and people with other faiths...). Even if you kill more of us.

On the other hand, they make their immediate demands (retreat from Iraq, for instance) much more palatable for the large majority of Muslims who mostly do neither share their final aims nor approve of the methods used. To look how one can remove quickly the need for a demand that is shared by a large fraction of their co-religionists from which they sample the new recruits is a good idea that I agree with.

But one has to decide at each stage anew whether one wants to give in to one demand and not make this decision for once and all. One has to accept that such decisions will cost lives of the own and other populations.

I still consider the decision to attack Afghanistan the correct decision. Each government should know that harbouring terrorists can be the end of the government and can force them personally to a life on the run. That decision could hope for some understanding even among Muslims in that historic situation. I consider the decision to attack Iraq a bloody (in both senses) error. Understanding that move was very low even among most non-Muslims. A move that can be seen as a defense against an attack (like Afghanistan could be seen) is different from a move that hardly can be pictured as defensive (Iraq).

If one does not make the evaluation whether one wants to give in each time anew one gives the wrong signal to terrorists and risks more lives in the long run.

What if British rightwing terrorists attack Muslim targets and lives with bombs and just demand that all Muslims have to be expatriated? What if two terrorist groups threaten to target London with mutually exclusive aims (one group: we'll bomb you if there'll be no united Ireland, the other: we'll bomb you if there is no union)?

A politic that puts appeasements first at all (long term) costs is wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM

Quite simply the best post I've seen on MC

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

But here's the distinction that you aren't seeing in what some of us are saying, Wolfgang. At least in my case.

We don't give in to the demands of the extremists. What we do is behave justly and humanely toward the people those extremists will use as their available pool of recruits if we don't treat them justly and humanely. That's an important distinction, since the extremists (even Hitler) can't do their dirty work without the help of a lot of people.

And that has been the flaw in the foreign policy of governments like those in the US and the UK. We have been treating a hell of a lot of people like they aren't people. This kind of treatment radicalizes them when they would not have been radicalized otherwise. And it makes them ripe for the picking for the extremists.

What needs to happen is to deprive the extremists of any available pool of recruits by treating people like people, and being entirely above reproach ourselves in our own behavior toward our fellow human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM

And that has been the flaw in the foreign policy of governments like those in the US and the UK. We have been treating a hell of a lot of people like they aren't people. This kind of treatment radicalizes them when they would not have been radicalized otherwise. And it makes them ripe for the picking for the extremists.

What exactly was the treatment of the four bombers in the UK that made them ripe for the picking?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:12 PM

I could take a guess, but it would only be a guess. But I can think of quite a few possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM

So your statement was based on ????? Nothing! Don't bother taking a guess you obviously have no idea of these mens backgrounds in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

My 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM post is based on fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM

In that case answer my question of 11.55 without saying you have to resort to guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

I just finished reading an article that said they were angry about the way Muslims were being treated by the US and the UK in Iraq. I could use that as documentation to back up what I said, but since none of us is in the minds of these men, and we will never be able to ask them about it, it is impossible to know for sure all of the factors that culminated in their resorting to such violence. Any attempt to do so really is a foolish exercise.

It is possible, however, to talk to the people who are still alive and who are becoming radicalized by the foreign policies of the governments of the US and UK. And I think that would be a very constructive exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:42 PM

I just finished reading an article that said they were angry about the way Muslims were being treated by the US and the UK in Iraq. I could use that as documentation to back up what I said, but since none of us is in the minds of these men, and we will never be able to ask them about it, it is impossible to know for sure all of the factors that culminated in their resorting to such violence. Any attempt to do so really is a foolish exercise.


You finished reading what article? Who are 'they?'

So by your own admission you trying to radicalize suicide bombers reasons are 'foolish.' Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

It was a BBC article.

Like I said, there are still plenty of people we can talk with who can tell us what is causing an increase in the number and scope of people who are becoming radicalized. There's nothing foolish in communicating with people. And we have been told by many of those already radicalized what their reasons are for that. The reasons given are pretty consistant with what I have already said.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:50 PM

Couldn't these various GUESTs on this thread who disagree with each other from time to time work out some way of differentiating each other? Then instead of putting in times and dates and such, they could just say "in my last post" like anyone else. Makes life easier for everyone.

..............
What exactly was the treatment of the four bombers in the UK Thta misses the point. You don't need to be mistreated yourself to be angry and "radicalised" perhaps by the mistreatment of other people with you feel an identity.

People who share a religious identity, such as Muslims, Jews or Christians of various sorts, are very likely feel this kind of identity in face of what they see as oppression or persecution of co-religionists, and that can lead to appalling things happening.   But when we seek for the roots of these events, it's no good just looking in the immediate circumstances of the individuals concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM

Wolfgang...Thank you for that courteous and interesting reply.

I think we are both on the same wavelength regarding terrorism and how to combat it, but we do differ in how we see the present situation.

Although I am a severe critic of the direction of Western culture and the attitude of our government to other peoples and cultures, I do realise that we are basically dealing with madmen.
The problem is that these madmen are in a position to do dreadful damage to the ordinary people of Britain.
It is relalivly easy for them to sustain a terror campaign, and due to the fact that they "welcome death"there is very little that our security services can do to stop it.

I firmly believe that this is a war that we cannot win by aggression.
For once "might" is not at all sure to triumph,and we have no alternative but to start giving ground in our foreign policy.

Attempting to put pressure on the insurgents in Iraq has had disasterous results both here and in Iraq.

To compare a battle against terrorism with a conventional war ,is simplistic in the extreme, and the rhetoric of politicians who want to convince the people that they are in control of the situation, when in fact they are afraid to step back and re-examine their policy.

So in conclusion Wolfgang, I hope you understand that I am not an apologist for terror, but someone looking into an abiss, whos only concern is that this country does not descend into madness because of the folishness and inflexibility of our leaders ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:17 PM

carol there are huge sections of society that are disadvantaged one way or another. Women and disabled to name two. They don't strap explosives onto their backs and murder innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:17 PM

Wolfgang, great post. I have nothing to say against it, and indeed the "evaluate every time" point is both well made and very valid.

But I think you could still be misunderstanding ake's stance, by equating a wish to understand what drives people to terrorism with "appeasement". I don't think ake suggested giving in to any terrorists' demands - I don't think that there have been any so far in any case, at least not from the organisations claiming to have been involved in the London bombings. Neither do I believe that his wish to understand any grievances by a section of the populace is driven by a wish to appease that section, but rather by a wish to identify and recognise any wrongs committed (or perceived) so as to be able to deal with them. And "dealing with them" can include education, better attempts at integration, and so on.

So, even while I (personally) agree with the Met's "shoot at the head" policy in these dire times, despite the senseless loss of an innocent life yesterday; even as I would not want the government to give in to any terrorist demands, if and when they come; I would still advocate a more honest review by the government of their actions to date, especially with regard to the Iraq occupation; and I would press for more understanding and integration of the various cultures living in Britain. Not to appease - but to make life better for us all.

Dogged determination that one's past actions have been all correct should not be confused for integrity; it's only bloody-mindedness; not a characteristic that makes for good neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

carol there are huge sections of society that are disadvantaged one way or another. Women and disabled to name two. They don't strap explosives onto their backs and murder innocents.

There is an enormous difference between being "disadvantaged" and being invaded and occupied by foreign governments, resulting in the loss of tens of thousands of innocent (civilian) lives. As McGrath pointed out, one doesn't need to be the one directly affected by these things to be impacted upon and influenced by them. When one member of NATO is threatened, all other member nations have agreed to come to their defense (with force of arms). This is not so different from the idea of Muslims coming to the defense of other Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

Ake, your last post crossed with mine. You were doing OK until your "giving ground in our foreign policy" statement. Not sure if I agree with that as stated - perhaps if you'd said "review our foreign policy in the light of international public opinion" I might have found it easier to swallow :-)

It's true that drawing parallels between a conventional war and terrorism is likely misleading; this "war" may not be won by conventional army tactics or strategies. But there are also other tools, more applicable: better police work; better intelligence; better community spirit; better understanding.

"Giving ground" can only be any use if it is a result of negotiation - so that you can focus your "giving in" where it matters. But there have been no attempts by the perpetrators to negotiate; no demand to sit round a table "or else". All we have seen is reprehensible action. To try and second-guess the specific reasons driving these specific terrorists is futile, no matter what slogans they shout. And let's say you second-guessed right, and you gave in on the right points, and they piped down; what protects you from the next batch of terrorists? Much better to understand your community, its needs and its fears. Then at least you have a better chance of not creating future terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Mohammad
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

CarolC, your check is in the mail. Thanks for your support.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM

we have no alternative but to start giving ground in our foreign policy

Oh no El Grecko, akenaton's position is clearly appeasement.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

Keep your check, Mohammed.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

carol you really must put that to the families of the muslims murdered in London two weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

Guest..Shakibus..Just noticed your usual snide remark about my lack of vocabulary.

Your right ,I have learned from Mr McGrath not just words, but how to debate without being offensive, to have regard for others opinions when presented sincerely, among many other things.

There are people on this forum whos opinions I respect, but you are so full of arrogance wind and piss, that any opinions you express are of little interest.

You continue to quote a phrase from one of my posts cocerning the shooting up of Muslim areas.

I thought everyone would have read of the targeting of a house in London by armed police using CS gas fired from a commandeered house across the street.
Apparently after the attack, a search of the premises by police yielded nothing.
Actions like this are sure to inflame an already fraught situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:53 PM

And your over dramatization just pours oil on troubled waters?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:56 PM

Guest, 24 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM, I have a better idea. Why don't you go and have a talk with them yourself? Ask them how they feel about the kinds of decisions they have to face every day as Muslims... how to be a good Muslim while watching many thousands of their fellow Muslims being slaughtered by the very government of the country they have adopted as their own, and for dubious reasons at best. I sure am glad I don't have to face those kinds of issues in my daily life. I bet if you had a talk with them and really listened to what it's like for them, you would have some difficulty continuing your current line of reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

"One big demand of the IRA was a united Ireland. I consider it a correct decision by the Britsh governments not to give in to this demand (against the will of a small majority) and to insist that such a result (united Ireland) only can be reached by parliamentary and democratic means."

... but they never gave into any demands, Wolfgang.
Their refusal to deal with the United Ireland issue was a handyexcuse for not dealing with any of it.

That is why the situation in the World these days is such as we have.

Successive major World governments have refused to deal properly with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Osama Bin-Laden himself points to this festering sore as the focus of his jihad.

Would an intelligent person not try and focus a bit on that, perhaps?

Engagement might show a willingness from the major players in the present global guerilla war, to desist, when they see some of their demands being addressed.

It could be something for our respected leaders to wrap their heads around while they're waiting for the next strike

Would a responsible leader, or benevolent tyrant not try and do all in their power to protect their citizens, rather than let them suffer because of their own intransigence and higher adgendas?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:59 PM

carol we don't need to talk to them. We have heard what they have to say for ourselves. And not one of them is trying to justify the murder of their relatives by fellow muslims. Only you have taken that stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:00 PM

And not one of them is trying to justify the murder of their relatives by fellow muslims. Only you have taken that stance.

Oh no I haven't. If you had actually read my posts, you would know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

Sorry El Greko...Cross posted again.

I'v just got in from work, and rushed off that post without re-reading.
I think your probably right about the wording of that passage, but you are a wordsmith, whereas I struggle on.

At least I'm sincere in the opinions I post...I hope you understand that?

I find it easier to put my thoughts into words in the morning,as after a hard days graft i feel the effect of too many years..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM

Well actually ake I wasn't making a point about your vocab and I have never mentioned the "shooting up of Muslim areas", I haven't even seen the thread let alone quoted from it.

If I have ridiculed you or your opinions then tough. That's what I do, nobody's perfect. I like humour I think it's powerful, certainly far more powerful than simply swearing, which is something I don't do but you do.

I first joined the Labour party 30 years ago and ever since have been fighting the loony left who never get anything done, they just sit back and criticise. Well you know what? You're more than a nuisance you're dangerous, I see no difference between the loony left and the BNP scum.

Carry on with your nonsense and meanwhile Tony Blair will carry on making a dozen decisions every day that affect millions of people while you decide which thread to pollute.