BS: Perception

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:59 AM

You see, I believe you, Wolfgang!

I could just as simply not, of course, but that would be a bit bloody minded of me, wouldn't it?
And would get us no nearer to the bottom of the issue.

Would that you would accept some of what we comment on, with equal magnanimity.

It saves a lot of un-neccesary beating around the George W, if you know what I mean

"In addition, it is hard to receive facts about individuals if you have already decided things about the "categories" they belong to, in your view, since you are judging them with a heap of additional data which may or may not be applicable."

Well put Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 06:13 AM

I take it you have a television there, also.

No.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:19 PM

It seems to me that the further away from direct observation your data comes from, the less likely you are to have the facts, unless there is a very rigid protocol for establishing trust between a direct observer and his second-, third-, and n-hand removed audiences. This sort of discipline in support of trust is characteristic of scientific communication (if imperfect) and some cultures where the role of disciplined rememberer and recounter is highly trusted ( priest, sage, brujita, or minstrel, depending on the culture).

In addition, it is hard to receive facts about individuals if you have already decided things about the "categories" they belong to, in your view, since you are judging them with a heap of additional data which may or may not be applicable.

All our perceptions are born from belief -- from the most spiritual to the most material.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:16 AM

People see and hear what they expect to hear, based on who is doing or saying the words/actions in question.
" One thing in this life you can be sure of; while you may run out of friends you will never run out of enemies."
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:12 AM

I have spent my life listening, Wolfgang.
The Nationalists of the North of Ireland have had no other choice.

You obviously haven't understood the relationships I have made.
I see them as clear and concise; as do others here who probably visit Germany more than you have visit Ireland, either in your virtual form (as you do on the messages boards) or physically.
That has nothing whatsoever to do anything, is condescending, and frankly insulting

Had it ever occurred to you that you are the one who's perception is is a little off-key?

I am heartened, however to see you acknowledge Loyalist intransigence.

How though, can instigating the GFA, offering and producing de-commissioning, going through that 'cleansing' process, as it were, be recognised as anything else except listening?

I think you are being overly harsh when you say thay we are not 'inclusive' enough.

the 'not listening' argument (as you I'm sure you know) is a common ploy for those who have no further discussion to make, and furthers the Straw Man fallacy (as I'm sure you are aware, too)

Don't make sweeping statements, Wolfgang

You can only be as inclusive as your membership allows.
And at the minute there are dissident voices.

You will happily hum your 'not inclusive enough' tune while the area breaks down into civil war again, and not ONE word will be spoken against the Unionists.
As you never have done with any degree of sincerity, having read most of your Ireland related posts from when you joined, until now

Yes it is easy to sit on your bum in your flat and 'experience'; I take it you have a television there, also.

But if you are of the breed of people who just consume what you see and read, then you come to your own conclusions anyway.

That's why I'm here, Track of the Wolf.

To correct you.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:47 AM

Precisely, I see many friends who respond with an outrage behind their eyes and as a result appear to misinterpret what others have written.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:57 AM

You're welcome, Tyrone.

How, how, how, how, and how, as concerns you first paragraph in your 04:10 PM post? (Tiocfaidh)

Tiocfaidh,

I have to guess a bit what you mean but I hope I got it. This could be a good thread about perceptions and I made a quite general post and one example posts in message boards about the conflict in Northern Ireland. I didn't think about this site BTW, for that tendency not to listen can be seen much clearer in message boards in which also loyalists contribute.

So I had written about message boards in which people don't 'listen'. And Tyrone's first sentence after making a remark about my distance from Northern Ireland was that the loyalist are not strong in listening. That's exactly my point: Complaining first that the others don't listen is not a good start for understanding. I'd expect that loyalists are worse in that respect BTW.

Tyrone then has demonstrated some other instances where he plainly did not read or understand what I had written. I had not written about Northern Ireland in my post but about message boards about NI. I can experience behaviour in these message boards in my living room without moving my arse. In the next posts, Tyrone's remarks were either completely unrelated to my post in this thread or tried to make a point that I had made already and where I see not the slightest disagreement. He doesn't 'listen' carefully or perhaps not at all when he feels in opposition to someone else. That has led to my paragraph. I hope it is clearer now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:13 AM

Colm Loughlin

I signed because in an age of relativistic post-modern judgements, the idea of uniting as anti-fascist is an encouraging one. If liberals take anything as their first fundamental, it should be that

I signed because the 'grievances' argument sickens me; that people on the left are willing to pretend acts of fundamentalist terrorism are carried out for reasons very similar to their own amateur anti-imperialism is mind-bending. That people can't/refuse to see fascism for what it is because they don't like George W. Bush and Tony Blair (and in some cases would sooner call them fascists than Osama Bin Laden) is a very serious problem. In this context a united front willing to make the anti-fascist argument strikes me as essential.

I signed because I believe terrorism to be a very real threat and this site seems a useful way to concentrate an acknowledgement of that.

And finally, I signed because I want to show my support for democrats in the not-so-free-world who are bombarded, brutalised and slaughtered by terrorism
everyday.

Agree? Then sign as well

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 12:21 AM

I'm not surprised that Pakistani's see it that way.

From the Washington Post:

"But no matter which news sources you read or how you play with the numbers, the consensus of international commentators is that the U.S. military may have replaced Saddam Hussein as the biggest threat to Iraqi civilians"

The latest body count of Iraqi civilians since the U.S. led invasion is 22,000, minimum (that does not include those who have died of natural causes). I don't think it matters to the average Pakistani if the killers were U.S. coalition forces, Iraqi army, or insurgents. The deaths are the result of the U.S. led invasion.

How many have been killed worldwide by terrorists?

From Vancouver, all of these deaths count as a senseless loss of life. Whether the dead are British or Brazilian or Iraqi or... they all count. One life is not worth more than another.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:57 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:56 PM

Precisely.....

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:51 PM

"If you think, are you?"

Only if you think you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

What's the difference between an 'insurgent', a 'terrorist', and a 'freedom fighter'?

What is Democracy?

What is Freedom?

If you think, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:05 PM

A fact has to be a cold one

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM

Wouldn't anyone find it strange that two or more people COULD look at the same thing and see it through the 'same' eyes and same senses? And then describe it exactly the same as each other? And feel the smae things because of that? Talk about yer clones on the 'cat, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:40 PM

I totally agree, Al

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:38 PM

yes but what some of these people should be asking themselves - what is it in my nature that makes me think that I, and I alone am right...?

And furthermore I'm so right, I have the positive duty to be rude, aggressive and dismissive of other people and their feelings.

Not one life will be saved, neither will there be a shred more decency in the world - just because you used this forum to insult and humiliate a fellow human being.

all the best

Big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:38 PM

As for the ball crossing the line, or not..., the 'fact' wasn't being witnessed, the aspiration that it had, or hadn't was being experienced, and those are two different hypotheses.

There shouldn't be any confusion, was what I wrote.

I don't buy papers, but I do like comparing reporting of the same event in those I look at.

Holding a bias, can mean anything from having a penchant for Nescafé as opposed to Maxwell House, to hating Muslims.

"... we express our bias by re-interpreting the interpretation they (the media) give us.

"We get another perspective presented to us as facts, as a result."

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:24 PM

"If two people witness the same event first hand then there shouldn't be any confusion"

Forty years down the line - the World cup - and with the thing being filmed, the English believe it crossed the line and the Germans do not.

Of course the press is biased, so am I, so are you. Firstly we express our bias by choosing the paper that we do and then by re-interpreting the interpretation they give us.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:02 PM

But we very rarely get the 'facts', guest.

If two people witness the same event first hand then there shouldn't be any confusion

We get our facts mostly second-hand, after the story has passed through some editor's hands.

We get another perspective presented to us as facts, as a result.
How we perceive that (... if we perceive that), will depend on how we react to it.
.. and often will determine whether we think we need to use our experience and common-sense, or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:44 PM

"I think quite a lot of our 'perception' depends on the perspective we receive."

What on earth does this mean.

"If we are the inquisitive type, we sift through what we are told, and use our experience and common-sense to draw our conclusions."

Problem here is that everyones experience is different and of course it colors your view. Gigen a bunch of facts it's possible for two people to honestly come to different conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:23 PM

Well, it's not really surprising that people in Pakistan would have such perceptions.

The US State Department, after all, is also a breeding ground for terrorism and has been able to produce a far higher body count worldwide than Al Queda so far. That may change if Al Queda gets hold of a nuclear weapon, though. Let's hope they don't.

As for Iraqis killing more Iraqis at the moment than American soldiers do...oh, yes, indeed. But...if a foreign power invades your country on completely false reasons and occupies it and the ensuing disasters result in many of your own countrymen turning upon each other...does that mean you thank the foreigners for invading your country, smashing it up, and occupying it? No, it doesn't. You do not thank them for it, you pray for the day they will go home and leave you to run your own affairs in the way you choose.

In the fight against colonialism after WWII it was often said that a people will always prefer a bad government of their own over a foreign occupation...and a powerless puppet government (like the present Iraqi one)...IS still a foreign occupation.

So, everybody has their own perception. It's interesting to look carefully at the other guy's perceptions and measure them against the larger picture. All people hunger for freedom, and freedom means: self-rule. Take that right down to the individual level and you will see it is true. We all wish to be under our own governance...as individuals, as communities, as nations. We all wish to be free from being attacked on the basis of someone else's agenda. If someone attacks you, and says he's doing it to free you, he is not stating the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:12 PM

I think quite a lot of our 'perception' depends on the perspective we receive.

If we are the inquisitive type, we sift through what we are told, and use our experience and common-sense to draw our conclusions.

If you are like Wolfgang, you play the devil's advocate.
You need neither common-sense, nor experience for this, and as Tír Eoghain so eloquently put it, elswhere on these threads "It's like telling somone you see a blue hippopotamus sitting in the corner of your room, and requiring your interlocutor to prove to you that it isn't there" (sic)

Hate to be a pedant, Wolfgang, but: How, how, how, how, and how, as concerns you first paragraph in your 04:10 PM post?

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

Yes, Giok, but here we read

Perception is on the keyboard of the beholder.

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:38 PM

If only the deafness was unilateral, unfortunately selective deafness is equally prevalent on both sides. It is only a matter of perception regarding who is the deafest, depending on which side of the sectarian divide you inhabit.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:28 PM

I'm glad you live in cloud-cuckooland, Wolfie

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for supporting my point by the way you post, Tír Eoghain.

Wolfgang (who has been to Ireland including the North more often than to any other foreign country)

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:07 AM

There is also the perception abroad that the more a person posts to a thread, the less he/she is open to new thinking. (or 'listening', as is the normal internet terminology...)

There is no scientific basis for that viewpoint.

Produce the facts, Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:52 AM

"Recent Mudcat example: On the very same day, one man was killed by mistake in London and close to 90 with murderous intent in Egypt. Which thread is much longer? It's natural. We all care more if it is closer home."

I imagine if there were a lot of members from the Middle East, for example, we might have had a few threads dealing with the Egyptian bombings.
And perhaps Israeli aggression towards the Palestinians to boot.

Content is as much dependent on the demographical makeup of the Mudcat.

You should know that, Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:34 AM

Who's not listening now, Wolfgang?

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:32 AM

Interesting to hear what the other side thinks.

Yes that's very interesting if one is able to listen. Too often, those who could profit from listening are more interested in doing the talking bit.

If one looks for instance at message boards about Morthern Ireland one gets the impression that listening is not the strength of most of the participants. But I agree, it could help. And BTW, not one-sided. The people in Pakistan too should listen to what the perception of the man on the street over here is.

the West overplaying the disasters that happen on our doorsteps and letting pass those that happen in the East.

Recent Mudcat example: On the very same day, one man was killed by mistake in London and close to 90 with murderous intent in Egypt. Which thread is much longer? It's natural. We all care more if it is closer home.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:23 AM

The North of Ireland isn't obviously close enough to home for your liking, Wolfgang.

Listening, is unfortunately not one of the strengths of the Unionists in the North of Ireland.

They were not the ones who initiated the Peace process, and they don't seem to want to listen to those who are dertermined to make it a reality.

You seem to subscribe to the view that the corollary argument in any conflict situation proves the need to take the original premise more seriously.

I suppose perception of anything does not change until the moment we experience it.

Why does it always have to wait that long?

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:14 AM

Interesting to hear what the other side thinks.

Yes that's very interesting if one is able to listen. Too often, those who could profit from listening are more interested in doing the talking bit.

If one looks for instance at message boards about Morthern Ireland one gets the impression that listening is not the strength of most of the participants. But I agree, it could help. And BTW, not one-sided. The people in Pakistan too should listen to what the perception of the man on the street over here is.

the West overplaying the disasters that happen on our doorsteps and letting pass those that happen in the East.

Recent Mudcat example: On the very same day, one man was killed by mistake in London and close to 90 with murderous intent in Egypt. Which thread is much longer? It's natural. We all care more if it is closer home.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:12 AM

Well, yeah, perception is a major problem but I respect the British response to it in tryin' to shame those involved over bombing and shootin' other folks (think the invasion of Iraq here...) who had nothin' to do with the acts???

If *we* want to change perceptions *we* need to change3 the manner in which *we* act as role models in *conflict resolution*. *We* are doing a very, very bad job of it right now. *We* do not have a foriegn policy that can bring folks to think that *violence* is unacceptable...

*We* need to change...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Perception
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:46 AM

And that is part of the problem - us and them. IMO 'they' see the West overplaying the disasters that happen on our doorsteps and letting pass those that happen in the East.

If the point had been raised that Iraquis were doing the killing in Iraq I would guess that those questioned would point out that these particular killings are as a result of the Western presence in the country.

Maybe, if we could hear more of what the 'man in the street' is saying in countries like Pakistan, we might understand a little more why we are so disliked over there. Whether we could then do anything to change their perception is another issue.....

Subject: BS: Perception
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 05:53 AM

Just listened to a report from Pakistan on my radio this morning, they were interviewing Pakistanis about their thoughts on the London bombings, and the UK governments characterization of Pakistan as a breeding ground for terrorism. One person said, "Well it's only about 50 people, that's not many when you think of other world disasters" While another said, "Nobody published all the names of the children killed in the suicide bombing in Iraq last week" Several people said that London deserved it for being GWBs number one buddy, while others quoted the number of deaths in Iraq as a whole as a possible reason for the 'retaliation' However not one of those people bothered to point out that the majority of their 'brethren' killed in Iraq are killed by fellow Iraquis. So it appears that whoever dies and under whatever circumstances in Iraq, it is all the fault of the US/UK coalition. Interesting to hear what the other side thinks.
Giok