BS: Unite Against Terror

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

Sorry to refresh this thread, as I know it's well past it's SBD, but there was an interesting article in todays Sunday Times.
It was by Simon Jenkins and mentioned the "useful idiots" referred to by Shakibus above.
I quote from Mr Jenkins article.

"Terrorism is turning Britian into a banana republic. It is centuries since we cheered a public lynching. If terrorists want evidence of how easy it is to reduce Britain to a crude police state, they need only study the Stockwell shooting.

The truth is that those who want to subvert freedom can always rely on "useful idiots", a phrase Lenin is said to have used of liberal apologists for extremists(but never did).
Modern terrorism neatly inverts this attribution. It relies on"useful idiots" of the right to exploit any terrorist incident to forment xenophobia, suspend civil liberties and seek revenge from any ethnic group vaguely linked to the incident.

Terrorism's "useful idiots" have had a field day this past fortnight.
They have jumped from "nothing can justify the bombing (true) to "nothing can explain the bombing" (absurd).
They have jumped from "Britains war in Iraq is no excuse for killing Londoners"(true) to "Britains war in Iraq has nothing to do with the bombing" (palpably absurd).
They jump from "we must not be driven to alter our way of life" (true) to demanding that we do just that.

The "useful idiots" demand new powers, new restrictions and new measures against the Muslim community.

Above all they declare "war on terror", turn murderers into warriors and incite Islam to proclaim jihad in response."

Now thats exactly what I meant.........Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

Today our local AM right wing radio jock was suspended without pay for not recanting his presumption that Islam is a religion of toerror.

His timing is as poor as his judgement. The President of Pakistan has ordered Madrasses to send home all the foreign students and has made some kind of declaration of a jihad against terror attacks.

Little can be done at this late date to assuage fundamentalists on either side that the American invasion tactics are not akin to yet another crusade against Islam.

Pulling out would resound as a victory over the American crusade.
Staying will prove that this crusade will become the Muslim battle cry for many generations to come. After the parents of children killed in this war die, there will be the orphans to carry their deep seated hatred... ad infinitum with the reminder of angry clerics.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:49 PM

And the U. S. gummint doesn't do all that well on #1 and #3 either.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM

Regarding what I DO expect from my government...

1. I expect them to keep the normal structures and activities that they are responsible for in society functioning reasonably well...

2. I expect them not to attack or threaten anyone (foreign or otherwise)

3. I hope that they will leave me (and others) alone to live my (our) life as I (we) choose... ;-)

In the case of the Canadian government, although they can be a bit incompetent at times, they manage more or less to fulfill these expectations most of the time, so I'm reasonably happy with them. In the case of the USA government, they keep screwing up totally on point # 2. For that, I criticize them.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:41 AM

Well, Shakey, I know plenty of Muslims who are totally opposed to the fanatical Musilim extremism and violence you are drawing attention to, and they say so. Every Muslim I know is opposed to it. But who do the news media pay attention to? Fifty thousand reasonable people who don't want ot hurt anyone...or one fanatic who does?

Agree 100%

If you examine my posts you'll see that I support the average muslim it's the lunatics I despise.

But, yes there's always a but, Islam itself is not above critiscm, nothing is, and the fact that I object to parts of it does not make me an islamophobe, see
this and tell me I'm wrong.

And yep Joan's all right

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM

Of the list she gave two points were simply propaganda, I'm sorry but they just not true and even Carol tacitly admits this.

Which two points would that be then?

You are consistantely not getting the point of my points (which suprises me not in the least).

I am not talking war. I am talking about what is needed in order to win the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:25 AM

Well, Shakey, I know plenty of Muslims who are totally opposed to the fanatical Musilim extremism and violence you are drawing attention to, and they say so. Every Muslim I know is opposed to it. But who do the news media pay attention to? Fifty thousand reasonable people who don't want ot hurt anyone...or one fanatic who does?

It may be a problem in perception...

As for taxes, I have no objection to paying them, even though some of it inevitably goes to things I don't agree with. Doesn't worry me. I never object to a government I disagree with iniative by saying, "They are using my tax money to do that!" Like...so what? ;-) I accept taxes as a fact of life, and I don't worry about it. To expect governments to always do what I want would be pretty naive, wouldn't it? I figure I am responsible for my own happiness...not the government!

But if Joan Baez or someone else wants to refuse to pay part of their tax to make a point of some kind, that's their business. I am free to do as I wish, and so are they, right? I do kind of admire her sheer determination at the time...

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:31 AM

Re nyt

Well it's an opinion, not one I happen to agree with and being the nyt gives the man no special importance.

Answer one question. When the Iraqis finally ask the US to leave do you suppose for one moment they will unilaterally say no. No neither do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: polaitaly
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:07 AM

Maybe this article can be useful - sorry, I can't make a blue clicky-
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/opinion/28herbert.html

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:36 AM

The London attack is not the work of a small group of people. It is the bitter fruit of a religion that has been hijacked by a minority of extremists, while the majority looks on in concern and amazement.Until we hear the voices of the Muslims condemning attacks of this kind with no words [of qualification] such as 'but' and 'if,' the suicide bombers and the murderers will have an excuse to think that they enjoy the support of all Muslims. The real battle against this enemy of mankind will begin when the 'silent majority' in the Islamic world makes its voice heard against the murderers, and against those who brainwash them, believe them, and fund them.

Amir Taheri
Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), July 8, 2005.

But it's not only the muslims that need to recognise this.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:14 AM

Dear Mr Burke,
I entirely agree with you, I have always found it sensible not to sign things that I don't understand.

Yours etc
Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:08 AM

Akenaton
Well if you've been following the recent posts, which it appears you have, I'm amazed that you're still repeating yourself, telling me that Carol's "idea" is "ideal";

Of the list she gave two points were simply propaganda, I'm sorry but they just not true and even Carol tacitly admits this.
One point was a pure US decision, OK it may effect others but they have to decide.
Would it be better if more countries were involved Iraq? Sure but as you say who is rushing out there to help?
The point I keep hammering home is "The war is over - move on". I have never said that the US were right to invade but they did, they are now in Iraq legally by any standard, they have a UN mandate and the hosts want them there. The Iraqi people have made their choice while a small group of murderers, a strange combination of two right wing groups - the baathists and AQ - wish to wreck the progress that is being made. By and large it's the locals who are dying, being killed by these fanatics.

The idea, held true by the loony left, is that we're talking about some romantic group of freedom fighters struggling against an evil empire: well it's laughable.
If you really want to know what we're talking about here then google up some AQ statements, they're often quite candid in what they want.
I'll tell you what they want, what the really, really want. Everything.

It seems at the moment that I'm in the minority, but you know what, it is changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:07 AM

LH, people are trying all the time to stop their taxes being used for this or that, there has been a high profile case recently in the UK (they lost).
Point is it's stupid, you may not want your taxes to go on military spending but others don't want it spent on third world relief or child support or farm subs or whatever.
Once you take a step down that road it would be chaos, how on earth could anyone plan anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:25 AM

This petition is utterly incomplete in that it mentions only terror employed by Muslims, ignoring the terror employed by governments of many countries and their proxies. Don't forget that Iraq was bombed on a daily basis for many years before the invasion, and that the targets were military only in the broadest sense. And don't forget the South american death squads.

Terror:

Bombing of civilians- both by people with rucksacks and people with aeroplanes.

Kidnapping and detention without trial. By insurgents, by militias, and by governments.

Torture. Egypt, Israel, USA, Russia, pre-invasion Iraq, Iran, Syria....

Forcible eviction, whether from Harare or Falluja (what happened there?)

I could go on, but being against all forms of terror, I will NOT be signing this weaselly petition.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:49 AM

How many times do people need to refresh a thread for a petition they don't believe in? Shakey is enjoying this.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:17 AM

Shakibus...In past conflicts,like Vietnam, when the US found their position untenable, the last thing on their minds were the wishes of the host govt, or even the wishes of the people who had assisted them in the conflict. They abandoned those they had come to "protect"

Before long , both the US and UK will pull their troops out of Iraq ,whether the Iraq "govt" agree or not.

THe ideas expressed by Carol Hawk And Don are the ideal solution, but what government in its right mind is going to send troops to the butchers shop that is Iraq today.

Not only would they be putting their troops in extreme danger, but exposing their people to acts of terrorism , as Blair has done with the UK...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:32 PM

Well, that's the way it is with taxes. You don't get to say "boo" about where they go. Joan Baez refused to pay the portion of hers that went to military spending, so the IRS would send agents to her concerts and confiscate part of the proceeds. It went on that way for years... ;-) Joan made her point, they got their money.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:11 PM

The US are spending TAXPAYER money. I am a US taxpayer. They are spending my money.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:03 PM

So the US are spending US money and permanent means more than one year.

Well if you'd explained all this to me before we could have saved a lot of time.

Goodnight Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:48 PM

I did answer. My answers were good ones.

"We should let the international community take over for us."

Well this is what we're already talking about

Not really. We're paying lip service to talking about it.

We should join the international criminal court.

By "we" you mean US, well they probably should but I don't get to vote there

That's right, the US.

"We should hand over the job of taking bids and assigning contract jobs to the international community."

This one is interesting, I first heard calls about this within a month of the end of the invasion (don't quibble about it still being an invasion you know what I mean), anyway, there was a great outcry because the contracts were going to US companies, but, and it's a big one, the US Gov barred certain countries, france springs to mind, from contracts that were being paid for by US money, this bit wasn't reported so widely 'cause it doesn't make good press. Now, are you telling me that the US is telling the Iraqis how to spend Iraqui money. If so that would be wrong but you'll have to google up a bit before I accept it.OK?

At the very least, we should have opened the bidding up to companies with close enough ties to Iraq that the money earned from the contracts would have benefited the Iraqis and the Iraqi economy. Regardless of whether or not it was US money. We did not do that.

"We should stop building permanent military bases in Iraq and"

I honestly don't know much about this, tell me more. One thing I will say though, if the Iraqis are asking then to leave next year how permanent is permanent?

Permanent means beyond next year. The bases are being built for long term use. The point is to secure the oil, not protect the Iraqis.


I would enjoy discussing things with you a lot more if you didn't behave like such and asshole and constantly take cheap potshots. That doesn't make you look very intelligent. It just makes you annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:28 PM

financial stake

I don't own a single share.

Don't worry 'bout me, I get by.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:22 PM

Ok so you won't answer, I will.

We should let the international community take over for us.
Well this is what we're already talking about

We should join the international criminal court.
By "we" you mean US, well they probably should but I don't get to vote there

We should hand over the job of taking bids and assigning contract jobs to the international community.
This one is interesting, I first heard calls about this within a month of the end of the invasion (don't quibble about it still being an invasion you know what I mean), anyway, there was a great outcry because the contracts were going to US companies, but, and it's a big one, the US Gov barred certain countries, france springs to mind, from contracts that were being paid for by US money, this bit wasn't reported so widely 'cause it doesn't make good press. Now, are you telling me that the US is telling the Iraqis how to spend Iraqui money. If so that would be wrong but you'll have to google up a bit before I accept it.OK?


We should stop building permanent military bases in Iraq and
I honestly don't know much about this, tell me more. One thing I will say though, if the Iraqis are asking then to leave next year how permanent is permanent?



hand the job of helping the Iraqis build their democracy to a international body that has representatives from enough different countries that any secondary agendas any of them might have will be weeded out and addressed by the body as a whole.
Agreed

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:16 PM

And please show me where I have called for withdrawal of US and British forces without authorization of the UN or the Iraqi government.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:14 PM

So I guess it's safe to assume that you have some financial stake in keeping the status quo then, Shakey.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:08 PM

Carol the US is present in Iraq under a UN mandate, the number is, nah google it.

Mr Jaafari said any US withdrawal had to be co-ordinated with the Iraqi authorities. "We do not want to be surprised," he said.

Answer the question

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

I'd be far more interested to know what the people of Iraq would have to say about the items on my list. And my list doesn't have a time frame attached to it, so it would be possible to keep US and British forces in Iraq until next year and also implement my suggestions. Or the US and British forces could be replaced by forces that are not plagued with conflicts of interest as the US and British forces are.

However, there are also several items in my list that can be done whether or not US and British forces remain in Iraq. I notice you are studiously avoiding those.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:44 PM

Carol, I repeat, has the Iraqi government asked for anything on your list, or have they asked the US to stay until next year.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:56 PM

I'm not suggesting withdrawal. I'm suggesting a transition to new and better kinds of assistance. I think you are the one who is skirting the issue. The issue is what is best for Iraq and Iraqis. Not what is best for Halliburton.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:37 PM

Fair enough LH I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:02 PM

And far from "skirting the issue," Carol's solution is by far the best for all concerned.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM

All good people change their minds now and then, Shakey, specially when presented with good ideas and reasoning by other people.

It's fanatics who do not change their minds.

If I had my mind all made up about everything, I might as well just die now and be done with it. There'd be nothing left to learn, would there?

I generally discuss things to explore them, not to spout irrefutable gospel. That's why I'm actually interested in what you and others have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:54 PM

Wooly thinking? No, I'm not the one who should be feeling sheepish here.

Shakey, you sound like someone who is obsessed with a single idea and is getting upset when others see different solutions.

Take the blinders off!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:44 PM

Look littlehawk youy've been changing your mind to suit circumstance anyway so your credability is shot.

Don you take wooly thinking to a new level, as for AkeNanoo^© I give up.

Carol you're skirting the issue and you know it.

The Iraqi government have said this week that they specifically don't want any surprise withdrawal from the US, they want to decide when the US leave.

Oh and Carol, please don't let your students loose until they're ready it's not good for your reputation.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

As if the USA thought it needed permission from the Iraqi government to do anything it really wanted to do... (chuckle!)

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:58 PM

Shakey, the US doesn't need permission from the Iraqi government in order for it to conduct itself conscientiously and in a manner that puts it above reproach. And what I have suggested fits into that category.

However, I think if the question was put to a vote and all Iraqis were to vote on it, I bet it would pass. And that would be democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM

I think CarolC has proposed the best overall response, and I agree with her view on it. Aggression should not be rewarded by the World community. Saddam's aggression against Iran and Kuwait was not rewarded. Neither should America and Britain's more recent aggression against Iraq be rewarded. Iraq should be temporarily policed by a multi-national force NOT composed of the troops who invaded the country. They should leave as soon as someone else is put there to take their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:49 PM

You certainly want what's worst for the Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

Shakey, I'm not the one who's clueless here. Read a little history of the area. Most of the bombers are Sunnis, a minority group, who are quite possibly justly fearful of what a democracy will mean for them. The Shi-ites, who are in the majority, have never been very nice to the Sunnis. Or the Kurds, for that matter.

Not everybody sees democracy as a good thing, unless the possible actions of the majority are duly restricted by a solid constitution, and that has yet to be accomplished in Iraq. Remember, unrestricted democracy is majority rule, and a simple example of majority rule is a lynch mob. These are little subtleties that the Bush administration should have seen coming, but when you have a thirst for oil, and geopolitical domination, you tend to neglect niceties like this.

Piers, you will note that I did not endow Osama bin Laden with a halo. He is as you say he is, but the U. S. actions in Afghanistan gave him excellent reason—and the propaganda to feed his agents—for a terrorist attack on the U. S. Had we followed through on our promises to the Afghanis, bin Laden would have found himself with a far less convincing justification for claiming that the U. S. is "the Great Satan."

And as to whether or not the "coalition" should pull out, I pretty much agree with Little Hawk. In a way, by starting this ill-advised war, we've put ourselves between a rock (Iraq?) and a hard place. We made the mess and we have an obligation to clean it up. But the longer we hang around, the more animosity we engender.

I agree wholeheartedly with what Carol said just above. But I don't think the Powers That Be (Bush, Cheney, et al and the companies that own them) want to get out. You see, their definition of spreading "democracy" is to make the rest of the world safe for American corporations to "do business."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:40 PM

Carol, has the Iraqi government asked for anything on your list, if so I'll agree with you, if not will you agree with me that we should abide by their wishes and stay until next year.

Or are you like ake, knowing what's best for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:25 PM

This is what the US should do...

We should let the international community take over for us. We should join the international criminal court. We should hand over the job of taking bids and assigning contract jobs to the international community. We should stop building permanent military bases in Iraq and hand the job of helping the Iraqis build their democracy to a international body that has representatives from enough different countries that any secondary agendas any of them might have will be weeded out and addressed by the body as a whole. That would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

So you're for immediate withdrawal whereas their government isn't but I s'pose you know best eh?

Help me out here, you're ideas, matchboxes or fortune cookies.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

It dosn't matter much what I think .
The situation in Iraq now is a consequence of US and UK aggression.

Leaked documents have been published showing that both countriews want to get their troops out of the carnage as its pretty obvious that the conflict is unwinnable...just like what was previously known as the "War on Terror".

Nothing at all can be accomplished while the US/UK invasion force is still in Iraq, so yes Im for immediate withdrawal.

Even if troops are recalled, I'm sure the West wants to hold on to political influence, thats why they are so keen to set up so called "democratic govt", but the guys who pull the strings in Iraq got the 8 million out to vote for Islam not Coca-cola.

If we are sent packing, lock stock and barrel, the Chinese are waiting in the wings with their own way of influencing governments

Speculation, speculation,speculation

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:59 PM

Does that suffice?

Frankly LH no. You missed the point, it's not your call it's theirs and they say stay.

I'm not trying to wind you up, look for an argument or whatever, just making the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:50 PM

Good point, Piers.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Piers
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

Taint so Don Firth. That Bin Laden chump is another rich capitalist seeking domination, him and his followers aren't anti-imperialist just anti-foreign imperialism on their patch. They aren't defending freedom for arabs or muslim dignity, though he might use that as his propaganda. They seek to dominate the resources of arabia and the exploit working people there. There is no reason to believe that, like the west, they would not seek to extend their control from their patch if the west wasn't stealing oil that they believe theirs. Whoever controls the oil or wins the war, the workers everywhere lose out. The state, or those aspiring to statehood, can only act for the dominant economic interests as it upholds the minority control of resources which can only be done by force thus presupposing violence. Common ownership and democratic control of the means of production is the only way that we live can in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:45 PM

Put it this way. If I was them, I would not pull out. Why? Because I MADE the mess, and it's now incumbent on me to at least try to clean it up, that's why. It's my responsibility to suffer the cost and misery involved.

Does that suffice?

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

I'm disappointed here LH, I thought you would consider it a little more carefully and I'm pretty sure that a couple of days ago you said that they probably shouldn't pull out right away.

I'm accused of a "west knows best" attitude" but here we have a government saying what is best for its people and we have you saying " they should be replaced "

It's all blame and accusations from you lot nothing constructive.

Don, Akenanoo^© answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:31 PM

Should the coalition pull out? That is hard to say. The coalition engaged in an illegal war of aggression. They hardly have a right to be there. I'd say they should be replaced by an international peacekeeping force from other nations entirely, but who the hell would want the job? It's very hard to restore order after you have whacked a hornet nest with a baseball bat. Someone is inevitably going to get stung.

If the will of the majority of Iraqis really had its way, there would be a Shiite Islamic governmnent installed in that country, and that would be bad news for Sunnis and Kurds, wouldn't it? Plus, the USA would not be happy about it.

This is what happens when an empire (the British) arbitrarily draws lines on a map and creates an unviable country and exploits the shit out of it, and then leaves, and a series of dictators take over to keep the lid on the boiling pot, and the USA backs one of them, and then decides not to back him, and then has a fight with him, and invades the place in order to exploit the shit out of it once again.

What does any of that have to do with democracy? Nothing. The present efforts at democracy in Iraq are window-dressing by the USA in order to justify what's really happening: imperial conquest of oil resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

One question ake, Don.

Should the coalition pull out now.

Subject: RE: BS: Unite Against Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:15 PM

Don Firth ...That was a brave and true post .

One of the best I've seen for some time.
I hope it shames the phonies who try to distort the way we think..Ake