BS: IRA ends armed campaign

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 04:55 AM

I wish I had noticed before that Dee Dee used to be The Curator.
Here is his last post as Curator.
Why the change of mind DD?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:53 PM

Yup - I could be getting on with cleaning out my house! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM

There are some other pastimes for a Saturday evening !

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM

From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

"A - The IRA (if you believe that Gerry Adams was on the Army Council) initiated the whole Peace Process, for Chrissakes!!"

Considering Adams resigned publically from the IRA Army Council not so long ago, it'd be hard not to believe he was "on the Army Council".

It wasn't the IRA who initiated the whole "Peace Process" by the way - it was one John Hume. He managed to get the IRA and the British government to sit down with each other and talk the bit out.. tried and tried. The Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 was the first result of these talks, though it was poorly considered and VERY poorly implemented.

I believe nobody deserved the Nobel Peace Prize (in Northern Ireland) more than Hume. That's not to say that Trimble didn't deserve his, for he surely played his part. And of course, I have to say that had Adams & Co not agrred to talk, there would undoubtedly be no "peace process" today.



From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

"34 people murdered by loyalists UVF/UFF/LVF since 1998 we tend to hear little about these figures. Go the Village area of Belfast a loyalist stronghold and tell them there's a ceasefire ! Serious internal problems there."

The same Village that has had some of its Loyalist murals painted over with more neutral murals celebrating sports heros etc of Northern Ireland you mean..?

Anyway, isn't this thread about the IRA ceasefire and inactivity..? You feel the need to mention the Loyalist scumbags and thugs because..? (answers on a postcard..)


"Robert McCartney was murdered by one man who was once a member of the PIRA."

Uh-huh.. while the other one jumping up and down on McCartney's head was who..? The guy who gave the orders was who..? His stomach was ripped open by who..? Read the accounts of what actually happened in and outside the bar.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM

From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

"A - The IRA (if you believe that Gerry Adams was on the Army Council) initiated the whole Peace Process, for Chrissakes!!"

Considering Adams resigned publically from the IRA Army Council not so long ago, it'd be hard not to believe he was "on the Army Council".

It wasn't the IRA who initiated the whole "Peace Process" by the way - it was one John Hume. He managed to get the IRA and the British government to sit down with each other and talk the bit out.. tried and tried. The Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 was the first result of these talks, though it was poorly considered and VERY poorly implemented.

I believe nobody deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Hume. That's not to say that Trimble didn't deserve his, for he surely played his part. And of course, I have to say that had Adams & Co not agrred to talk, there would undoubtedly be no "peace process" today.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM

"Jimmy C is right, I can NEVER see the day when Paisley Robinson and the rest of the DUP will ever agree to sit down with Adams and co and using the language of diplomats discuss their problems in a reasonable manner."

Oddly enough Ard "mhacha", had this been 15 or 20 years ago, I wouldn't have thought it possible to see Sinn Féin/IRA sitting down and discussing problems in a reasonable manner.

Yet this is what has happened.


"It just wont happen, to reason with Paisley is impossible, I can still hear the loud guldering voice shouting, "NEEVARR,NEEVARR,NEEVARR, when he was asked would the day come when he would sit down with Sein Fein and work out a power sharing arrangment."

Mmm-hmmm .. easy to provide maxims and slogans and base a person's character on those, and ignore any complexities, eh? Its called blinkered thinking. For example, I could easily describe how I remember Adams addressing a crowd of nationalists and republicans in Belfast.. when one of them shouted out, clear as day, "Bring back the IRA!" Adams' reaction? A grin, a pause and then, "They haven't gone away, you know!".. to a cheer by the crowd.

Incidentally, I don't recall Paisley's "Never" speech being the answer to a question he had been asked.


"Again I agree with Jimmy C, the Unionists will never agree to a united Ireland,"

Indeed. And why should they? The very definition of the ideology of unionism is that Northern Ireland remain part of the United Kingdom. Is there some expectation that this ideology suddenly sprout wings and change into its opposite..?

As a unionist myself, I wouldn't mind seeing the Republic of Ireland re-unite as part of the UK. But I can't see that it would ever happen, so I don't spend a lot of time fretting about it.


"even when they [Unionists] eventually become the minority,"

Don't you mean "if"..?


"despite the fact that the economy of the six northern Counties are third world in comparsion to the Irish republic."

The "six northern Counties" (hereafter referred to as "Northern Ireland, being that this is its given name) do not have an economy as such. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, which has something like the 5th strongest economy in the world. Hardly "third world".

However, taken as a separate unit I'm sure that this region not having any natural resources worth talking about (other than manpower), and having gone through more than 30 years of political turmoil (which drove away both national and foreign investment by the way) has a long way to go to catch up with the Republic of Ireland's economic boom.

Its worth noting though, before the last major industrial revolution, Northern Ireland had THE biggest textiles industry in the world, one of the biggest rope manufacturing industries in the world, one of the biggest ship manufacturing industries in the world, had twice the GDP of the Republic of Ireland, produced the same number of new houses as the Republic (in the post-war period).. and had many other better statistics than the struggling, under-developed Republic.

The RoI has blossomed, and its good to see. I'm not sure how long it will take before the recession hits it, but let's hope it doesn't hit too hard (a boom is always followed by a relative collapse in economics apparently).



From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:31 PM

"Just a bit off topic here--but not much. What were the names of the two women who (I think were nominated or maybe received the Nobel Peace Prize) tried to make peace so many years ago? I recall that one was Protestant and the other Catholic."

Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams. Both women were Roman Catholic, though Williams was the child of a mixed marraige and married a Protestant man. They shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1976.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:00 PM

From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM

"There are figures floating around that show the Protestant population as having plunged, but as I understand it, these are based on misunderstandings of the census figures, which were all-Ireland figures before the Free State (1922-today) but Republic-of-Ireland-only figures from 1922 on; this artificially made it appear that the Protestant population had plunged, since the northern counties are more heavily populated with Protestants."

I'm not aware of what figures you have seen personally, though I can tell you that figures have been produced with proper adjustments made to show the Protestant population of the 26 counties both pre- and post-partition. There was a sharp drop in the number of Protestants for the five or ten years before and after the Free State split from Ireland, and then a steady decline until today. The demographics are aas follows:

The population of Protestants as a percentage of the total population of the 26 counties during the period of 1891 to 1911 remained roughly constant.

The percentage of Protestants dropped sharply from 1911 to 1926 (by 30%: down from around 10% to about 7%).

The population decline of Protestants has continued at a reasonably constant rate from 1926 until the present day: the percentage of Protestants in the Republic of Ireland today is less than 3% - down from 7% in 1926.

Perhaps you have been presented with figures that suggest the Protestant population dropped from over 10% to less than 3%.. which is true. But the reason for that is likely due, by the most part, to an exodus of Protestants from Southern Ireland (particularly from border counties).

It is, I think, more important to focus on the period of relative peace after 1926, and compare any change in population from then until now.


"After all, the 'armed struggle' had fallen virtually silent in the 1960s; it only revived when thousands of Catholics were burned out, driven from their homes and refused civil rights in the late 1960s.

Mostly people become violent as a last resort."

That's certinaly one way of looking at it. Of course, we all know that "the Protestants" just became violent for no reason...

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:26 AM

"The weapons of the UDA and attendant splinter groups have to go as well. Has there been any monitoring of that?"

There has indeed been some monitoring of it. In recent months there may even have been some progress towards stability, and a way through this to hopefully persuade these gangsters to disarm, decomission and.. to sit down and be quiet basically.


"Maybe the Nationalist community could press harder on that issue. They should have a good chance of forcing it. If their guns have gone away, they can demand their rights as a simple issue of law and order."

The problem is that its not just nationalists' rights being affected. The criminality of the Loyalist terrorists affects us all. Its not even an issue of rights. The Loyalists should be made to decommission by force, if they won't listen to reason. They have little or no mandate (other than the handful of votes that the PUP gets in some areas).


"If I were in a position of power, I would be tempted to light a fire under the Ulster Protestants' behinds, by telling them that they had (say) two years you make peace with their neighbours."

Really? Only the "Protestants' behinds"? What of the athiests and the Roman Catholics? Your misunderstanding seems to be that you are unaware that the vast majority of Protestant people in Northern Ireland ARE actually at peace with their neighbours and colleagues.

It is with some relief to me that you are not "in a position of power", as you sound rather sectarian in nature to me.


"Then, if they had not reached a workable agreement, they would have full independence - whether they wanted it or not."

"Full independence" from what exactly? Surely to be independent, there must exist a need or desire for indepenence from the perspective of the group of people you talk about. I cannot think of anything that a majority of Protestant people in Northern Ireland would particularly desire to be independent of.


"Believe me, very few Brits on the mainland have a deep sentimental yearning to keep Ulster within the UK!"

Thankfully, in your case, Ulster isn't "within the UK" in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:17 PM

And the beat goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

34 people murdered by loyalists UVF/UFF/LVF since 1998 we tend to hear little about these figures. Go the Village area of Belfast a loyalist stronghold and tell them there's a ceasefire ! Serious internal problems there.

Robert McCartney was murdered by one man who was once a member of the PIRA. The PIRA never sent anyone out to kill him. It was murder by a thug, if only the families of those 34 murdered (most were loyalists who were murdered by loyalists) got the same media coverage.

The father of one loyalist did appear on television and asked the public for help, three months later they tried twice inside the same week to kill him.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:25 PM

Lord Brookeborough said, in 1934 (before he became Prime Minister), "I recommend those people who are Loyalists not to employ Roman Catholics, 99 per cent of whom are disloyal..."

Indeed you are correct. His successor was much more liberal of course. However, a great many people (politicians amongst them) have said a great many things over the past century or so. It doesn't negate the fact that these three things that were stated by DeeDee are lies.

Roman Catholics were 'allowed' to own houses, get work AND to vote throughout Northern Ireland's history. In just the same way, Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Evangelists, Jews, and athiests were also 'allowed' these same rights.

Talking of athiests, who was it in federal government of the USA that suggested that "salaries should not be paid to Roman Catholics or atheists"..?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:02 PM

"I can guarantee that the loyalist politicians will keep harping about the declaration NOT BEING ENOUGH, NOT BEING CLEAR ENOUGH, NOT BEING THIS AND NOT BEING THAT."

Th only Loyalist politicians in contention are the PUP, and they are pro-Belfast Agreement. The Unionist politicians are divided essentially into the DUP and UUP camps, the former being previously anti-Belfast Agreement.. though the recent changes made to the Agreement might be enough to persuade them to form an Assembly if they are satisfied that Sinn Féin/IRA has ceased all criminal activity and if Sinn Féin support the police.


"In short the declaration from the I.R.A will mean zilch if there is no movement from the loyalists."

I disagree. The Loyalist contingent is very small, and things will move on with or without their input pretty much.


All we have heard of late is the McCartney murder while three protestants have been killed by loyalists during the past 2 weeks and hardly a word about it."

More than likely those "protestants" (isn't Protestant a proper noun btw?) that you mention were members of rival organisations. Not many people here (in Northern Ireland) care particularly about them getting killed.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 02:52 PM

The killing of Robert McCartney was (or so I've read) done by members of the IRA.

But to say that this means "the IRA killed him" is a bit like saying "the US Army rapes children in the Philippines" because individual soldiers do so.
______________________

By the same token of course, the UVF and UDA declared a ceasefire but some members have been involved in criminal activities - mostly involving an internal 'power struggle'.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 02:10 PM

Sir Basil Brooke,prime minister of Northern Ireland said publicly,

There were a great number of Protestants and Orangemen who employed Roman Catholics. He felt he could speak freely on this subject as he had not a Roman Catholic about his place ... He would point out that the Roman Catholics were endeavouring to get in everywhere and were out with all their force and might to destroy the power and constitution of Ulster. There was a definite plot to overpower the vote of Unionists in the north. He would appeal to Loyalists, therefore, to only employ Protestant lads and lassies.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM

You know, I'm pretty sick of outright lies being told about Northern Ireland. Take this BS from "DeeDee" for example:

"I lived here all my life and can remember in the 1960's catholics not being allowed to own a house, get work or a vote. The British government ingored these basic rights and from that grew a generation that fought for it. Sad we had to rise to this, but that's the way it was."

I'm afraid that wasn't "the way it was", by no stretch of the imagination. In the 1960s, Roman Catholics were NOT disallowed ownership of houses. Nor were they denied work or votes.

Now here's the truth: The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was formed to ensure equal opportunity for ALL in Northern Ireland. It was started by people of various religions, and its membership included both Roman Catholics and Protestants. When the IRA started infiltrating it, and the organisation became more militant. Its goals shifted from civil rights to the constitutional issue, and many Protestants left it.

One of the main issues was that Northern Ireland had adopted the political system that was in place for the UK as a whole, and this didn't change until 1970. The policy NICRA was concerned with was the fact that business owners had the right to a personal vote AND a vote for each business they owned. Demographics being what they were, Protestants were in the majority. They also had better opportunity in some cases to become business owners, whereas Roman Catholic children, who were often part of larger families, had to go straight to work after leaving school early instead of going on to further and higher education.

The Northern Ireland government passed the law to change the system to that which NICRA had been demanding (One man, one vote), though there was never another election after this because the NI Prime Minister resigned a couple of years later.

Discrimination in the work force did occur - perpetrated by and against both sides. There was never any official policy in Northern Ireland's existance, which excluded them from work.

Another concern of NICRA was housing. Their concerns turned out to be unfounded however, as was shown when the results of the 1971 census were published in 1975. In fact not only was there a higher percentage of Roman Catholics housed by pubic authority housing than Protestants, but roughly the same number of new public houses were built in Northern Ireland as were built in the Republic of Ireland during the post-war period - for half the population!

My apologies if these lies have already been addressed - its an old post I'm responding to (from the summer of 2005).

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:40 PM

The campaign is over.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:35 PM

I think it is a good time for a short follow-up:

Provos have been transformed, says monitoring body (GUARDIAN)

from the article (you have to read it all for qualifiers):

The verdict:

Provisional IRA

Committed to following a peaceful path. Running down terrorist capability and disbanding some military structures. Not engaged in terrorism, recruiting or targeting.

Dissident republicans

Active and dangerous. Recruiting and seeking weapons. Arson and bomb attacks. But small in number and often disrupted by arrests.

Irish National Liberation Army

Not capable of sustained campaign.

Ulster Defence Association

Involved in serious crime, including drugs, and sectarian attacks. But signs of desire among some leaders to move away from crime.

Ulster Volunteer Force

Responsible for shooting alleged informer. Some efforts made towards tackling criminality and reducing military capacity. (end of quote)

Looks to me like the IRA is a kind of role model for some other groups.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:24 AM

The IRA have never been on their knees in my living lifetime. The British always use this line about their foe. They even said the Americans were on their kness days before the battle of New Orleans ! If the truth be told, prior to the 1994 ceasefire it was Britain torturing Republicans for talks, I felt that time they were very much against the ropes by some of their contact remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

"The IRA had no where to go. Public sympathy was at an all time low"

A - The IRA (if you believe that Gerry Adams was on the Army Council) initiated the whole Peace Process, for Chrissakes!!

What's this 'rewriting history' crap all about?

B - From when I was a kid, I was hearing nothing else except that 'Public sympathy' for the IRA was at an all time low.

Either stay away from impressionable sources GUEST, or go see if there's any powers of discernment on auction over at EBay; second hand would nearly do....

"Re-writing history"???

Sure they never taught it in your schools in the first place.

Give my head peace, for God's sake...

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM

And while correcting you I made the mistake of confusing two towns: Stockholm is the town where most Nobel prizes are awarded, the peace prize, however, is awarded in Oslo.

Wolfgang (grinning sheepishly)

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:30 PM

I stand corrected Wolfgang. So happened I was working on an item about that lady on that day, and the name stuck. So hard to forget a great person. Sorry and thanks for pointing it out. And glad you welcomed the Councils statement.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:23 PM

Just a correction to a wrong information by the Curator answering a question by Brucie:

The name of the second Nobel recipient was not 'Maread Farrell' but Mairead Corrigan. Nice slip of the keyboard, by the way, mixing Stockholm and Gibraltar.

Wolfgang (glad about that move from the IRA)

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:59 PM

Tír Eoghain
Just thought you would like to know about recent attacks on Catholics in North. 15 attacks on Catholic churches in the last 26 days. In Antrim attacks on Catholic homes daily. Police on television news today issusing all Catholic families free smoke detectors and fire blankets in this area. Will this says it all. We can't hear the D.U.P. now, Little Jeffery not to be see or Big Ian or the child. But can appear on local television talking about P.I.R.A. operations five or ten years ago. We are being pushed to defend our areas by them,but they will not get us to bite. We lived through their shit before and will again. They want us to put a unit on the street and the headlines with photograph will read The New Promise of 14 days. That is their aim. All we hear is the P.I.R.A. will be back on the street from Paisley. Can't accept or desire peace at any price.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM

One minor oversight...

How many percent, I say "HOW MANY PERCENT of the vote did Sinn Féin get in the last elections?"
(Rhetorical)

... and that was without decommissioning....

The more the goal comes into sight, the more the swell towards its achievement is growing.
Like the Curator said, it's being talked about in the 4 corners of this country.

The last vestiges of the 17th Century are about to be swallowed up in the march of progress (cos the future marches on...), and without the continuing armed struggles down through the years, the opportunity would never have presented itself, Peter K, sorry.
Your Utopianism never got beyond the Morning Star, I'm afraid, and now it is too late to see if your method would have worked, or not.

I predict Sinn Fèin's popularity to rise and to keep on rising, as the Old School's star begins to wane.

The Irish are and always have been a resilient people, and we have always been proud to come from our country. Militant or ordinary citizen.

Peter K once again underestimates.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:15 AM

Thanks for your words of support Peace. When I read the words of many fine Irishmen in the posts above, their strength and grit is what kept us all going. As this thread appears to be coming to an end I would like to thank those fine men who gave an understanding to the climate we once lived in and now leave behind. And go forward in peace with justice.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM

Hi, Curator. I do know the situations are different. Vastly. Your country will soon be free. I wish that for the Irish with all my heart. I also understand your willingness to lay down your life for that Island. I would do the same for Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:09 AM

Thay have had their day ard. And your right, the ceasefire has been in place for a number of years.I am sure your like myself and listened to what our fathers were subjected to all because they were Catholic by birth. The younger generation I doubt will even take the shit we were dished out in our generation. But then again you may need to ask Peter for the answer to that one !

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:55 AM

From 1922 when this little haven for loyal Unionists was set up with a built in majority, the Nationalist people have had to take the dirt dished out to them by a Government which was the envy of every tin pot dictatorship throughout the world.

The Brits turned a blind eye to all that went on, it was a case of being left with a stark choice of submission or resistance, it had to break sometime and now that the IRA have said "no more",[now 11 years from their ceasefire], I hope we can progress to a united Ireland and go forward in peace and prosperity. The Irish Republic has prospered from it rejected the benevolent hand of Britain, this is more than can be said for the fag end of Empire, the sick six counties.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM

Good morning to who ever is hiding behind the above posting. Yes I do remember British civilans that were killed by active service units in England, or your word for it Mainland. Very much regretted by those volunteers who carried out attacks on property there in response to the events in Ireland. In fact regretted by all within the Republican movement. Do I hear your regrets for the loss of my countrymen coming from you ? Have you ever sat in a English prison talking to a young man flanked by two prison guards, listening to every word. By the time you get back to your home the British have ripped it apart, all because you went to visit a man who in 16 years the British government would stand up and say that him and his five friends should never have been put in prison in the first place ? It's always easy to spot someone like you, two lines is all you can muster,What about innocent civilians ? and the Americans turned their backs on you. Both crap. We all suffered losses. We don't award the taking of innocent lives, unlike the British, proven by the queen awarding eleven gallantry medals to members of the para's on their return from Ulster after 13 civilians were murdered by them in Derry. All of these soldiers were in Derry on the day.As to Americans support, yes some in positions do have make the odd noise to please the Brits, But my friend you want to be there on the ground, they love us. The offices Sinn Fein now have in the states are very popular. Yes we should find a way forward without more carnage as troop numbers drop weekly. No need for rose tinted glasses either, plenty to please the eye here at this moment in time.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:18 AM

We fought their army, we fought their rules and we fought those who were planted in our land and defended the crimes of the British.

A very romantic but not altogether true picture. Are you forgetting the innocent civilians you also murdered on UK mainland over a thirty year period?

The IRA had no where to go. Public sympathy was at an all time low and you did the sensible thing and declared the armed struggle over. The US turned their backs on you and entertained the McCarthy sisters instead.

It's never a good idea to try and rewrite history. I hope you find a way forward that includes neither carnage or rose tinted glasses.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM

I fully understand Peace what you are saying. Our fight was not with people because of their faith.Our fight was with the British who came to my country and stole the land from it's people. We fought their army, we fought their rules and we fought those who were planted in our land and defended the crimes of the British.The Provisional Irish Republican Army did not kill people for their faith.Yes I agree the soul of a man is very important. And if I was asked to give my life and soul for this country of mine I would. Regarding your own life experience, you were young, running with the crowd. The beauty of youth is you are allowed to make mistakes, it's what it teaches you that counts. You developed a great friendship which has made your life richer. Good luck with it.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:47 PM

Today I carry with me the remnants of things from my childhood. Often, sometimes daily and other times weekly, we fought the French kids in the neighbourhood. As we got older, the fights escalated to gang wars involving weapons. My best friend was French. He was the fellow who taught me the fundamentals of guitar, and he made much of my later life possible. To this day I don't guite know how to feel about it all. But I do know this: I will never again fight someone based on his language, religion, race, etc. That friend taught me that it's the soul of a man that is important. This has nothing to do with Ireland specifically; I apologze for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:21 PM

Well said ard. Peter in no way did you piss me off,bitter ? no sorry I don't wear that badge either. I live here on the ground Peter, I work with a lot of protestants and respect their viewpoint and they do mine. I am a proud Republican of 45 years of age. Within that time I have seen,suffered,lost and listened. Never needed to depend on reading newspapers from afar.Last night I spoke my phone to a friend who has a lifetime involvement with Na Fianna Eireann. We did speak of the the youth culture and how so much has changed. I listen to what you have to say Peter, never with insult I might add. I did relay your viewpoint. To a point we agreed with what you are saying regarding our youth. But this is in the upper to middle classes. Try to put your point across it the sprawling housing developements of working class areas, where the numbers are. Peter you would have no case. I have no reason to lie to you, christ the main point you should be making is that we continue to move there numbers towards Sinn Fein, which we are. The numbers are there and that's both sides of the border. I note your post made remarks towards the Catholic Church, sorry can't agree with you there, but can't talk about it either as I no longer attend, since the statement of 1983 when the likes of me were asked to leave. Anyway you hold a viewpoint and I respect it. But always listen to the man on the ground, even if he is in the eyes of many nothing but a bigoted provo bastard, which I'm not. Thanks Jim

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM

Regarding integrated education in the north, I went to a Catholic country school which was integrated, there were a small number of Protestant pupils and never once did i see any resenrment directed towards any of these pupils.

The numbers of integrated pupils here is 5%, sure we would all wish to see integrated education, but Peter save your some of your ire which you constantly direct towards the Catholic Church and direct it towards the arch bigot Paisley and his large Protestant following, they are the biggest critics of integrated education.

Did Des Wilson give you the impression of being a bigot, after all he was a Catholic Priest when you knew him.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM

It saddens me that you feel so apart from religion, but it is definitely an individual choice, and I admire you for deciding for yourself where you belong.

I know the phrase, "Sorry if it pisses you off," wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to share nonetheless. Integration and reunification are wonderful things because there is nothing more joyous than the Irish brotherhood coming together after so long, as it always should have been.

And in the days ahead, I pray we can see more unity as dramatic and long-awaited for changes take place within Ireland.

May God keep you, Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM

No offence to me, Curator, but you'll be sure to keep the bitterness entrenched with that kind of tone. I suppose if you'd been born a Prod you'd have been applauding Trimble and Paisley as they danced arm-in-arm down the Garvaghy Road. And you might as well face it - the biggest factor deciding whose side you're on is the accident of birth. The ones who interest me are the ones who can get into the other side's shoes and see things from the other perspective, and there are a few.

I did live on Malone Road - well a road between that and Lisburn Road - for a few months in 1973. The local newsagent wrapped my Morning Star in another paper (not paid for) if there were others in the shop, so he wouldn't be seen selling it. I knew and spoke to virtually no-one in that area and was glad to get out of it. I got my music and education in the Old House bar in Albert Street, which you may be too young to remember, and from people like Des Wilson, who inherited my piano.

Sorry if it pisses you off, but the coming generation is going to put most of the shit behind it. More and more integrated schools are being opened, and still they can't come close to meeting the rocketing demand for places. Of course, integrated education could have been the norm many years ago if the Catholic church had been prepared to forego some of its baleful influence on young minds. Now people are at last turning their backs on all organised religion anyway, providing further grounds for optimism.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:18 PM

Of course...

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM

Thanks for pm Epona

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM

Doug,
Troop size going to drop to 5,000 from 10,500, so keep watching the news to see what else develops.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:06 PM

Doug
Bases coming down yesterday and today. All mountain watch towers going.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:40 PM

I read in the newspaper today that GB had announced that there would soon be a withdrawal of troops as a result of the IRA action. Another encouraging sign.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:06 PM

Disasdorous Event - for those musicians trained to rally the mob and shakeout contributions - a great gig while scrimming 60% for the work attained/and honor gained....and funelling 40 into the California Costa Mesa's Armalite

The above is from Gargoyle.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM

Saoirse. Enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:07 AM

By the way Epona, glad to see an Irish goddess on this site, we need her !

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:01 AM

Peter, Yes I am delighted with the news that more of the demands we made have been answered, who wouldn't ? You and I are singing to the beat of a different drum. I am a Republican and dammed proud of it. If that gets to you, then so be it.I am not defensive Peter, I am there on the ground. As to the youth culture you seem to be in touch with, you must be staying up the Malone Road on your visits to Ireland. If only you knew the truth, I have been in 14 counties of Ireland since last Thursday. What I am hearing is so far away from your post. Units on the ground I am told have been refusing volunteers over the past twelve months,on both sides of the border. The swell of young men looking to join the ranks was never a problem. I imagine that to be on both sides. No recruiting occurred, yes Sinn Fein membership is sky high, that's the way we want it. As to the youth of the Irish Republic, Peter their views have never been as strong. Yes there were many that did not support our armed struggle, but now they are coming to Sinn Fein, which is our desire.As to the unionist/loyalists within the north, we can talk to them, as to the paisleyites, ten years ago they won't sit in the same buildings as us, now they do. Eight years ago they would not sit in a government building with us, and a year later they did. Five years ago they won't share local council and they now are. Last December you will never know just how close yo were to having a deal with them, can't print content sorry. That day will come again. So to your post, yes we will get our unity, yes youth who are tomorrows generation are with us and finally watch me gloat within the next two weeks for more demands being met, watch the news for this one, clue police and military.
Hope nothing I post to you causes offence. Just hold my views based on reality.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM

Peter, You are way out with your assertion that it is only the old greybeards that harbour resentment against the Unionists.
In point of fact it is the older generation here in the north that are the peacemakers, I suppose you went out of your way to talk to the young people here, of both persuasions, if you did who did you speak to?, they just don`t mix, I can tell you I talk to Unionist friends daily and we dicuss sport, that would be impossible for the younger generation.

You are probably referring to those at University were there is more of a "getting together", it dosen`t apply in the working class areas of any large town in the north,sorry to have to say this but it just dosen`t happen.

So please don`t lecture everyone with a different opinion to your own, and those figures from the Irish Times and the Sunday Independent, [two Dublin based newspapers} the bulk of whose readers would come from a more conservative background, voted for a united Ireland, and as for living with Paisley and his religious fanatics, what do you think we have been doing for years?.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

As an Englishman I just have a strong and simple hope that we get rid of the whole lousy shooting match as quickly as possible. NI may be a good place to accustom our soldiers to urban warfare conditions, but it's simply not worth the hassle and the bore of it being always in the newspapers. The sooner Ireland is reunited the better. Best of all the Irish will have less and less excuse, as the years slip by, to sing those miserable songs at us in what Spike Milligan accurately called '...that high nasal Irish tenor, known and hated the world over'.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:17 AM

Disasdorous Event - for those musicians trained to rally the mob and shakeout contributions - a great gig while scrimming 60% for the work attained/and honor gained....and funelling 40 into the California Costa Mesa's Armalite

Most solicitors have been pulled in from the field.

Whoa Whoooa WWHHOOoooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaa

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

Tremodt,

The Provos (PIRA) are following the leadership and doing everything that has been asked of them in order to comply with the end of the Irish Republican war. Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:45 PM

Tam, that's not crap, it's a perfectly reasonable question. I've been spending a fair amount of time in the Balkans in the past year or so, where people were at full-scale war with their neighbours less than 10 years ago - and I mean real, full-scale war, not the kind of disruption that the Provos called a war. Yet the progress they've made toward reconciliation is amazing. Spend a few weeks there, and you'd soon think that all the present bitterness in Northern Ireland was based on very little.

Curator, after a cracking start in this thread you seem to have slipped into childish gloating. It comes across like someone whistling for confidence, but I can't for the life of me see why you should be feeling so defensive.

Ard, I can't remember how much I've said to you so I'm not sure what you mean by the reference to my Irish friends. If you mean the Jimmy Stewarts and Roy Johnstons, I'm happy to admit that all factions made mistakes, including those that I supported. On the plus side leaders like Andy Barry always tried to oppose sectarianism, and the Stickies and CP tried to steer NICRA on a course that would not antagonise working Protestants. On the other hand, opposing the EEC as it then was, to conform with Soviet foreign policy was sheer stupidity. Well we live and learn.

You too, Ard, or you're going to find a united ireland, if it happens, a very uncomfortable place to be. On the one side there'll be all those Paisleyites you hold in contempt, and on the other, the free-stater Catholics, the ones who backed Michael Collins, whom you loathe even more. Start giving ground a bit, like everyone else is going to have to do, or you'll be overtaken by a younger generation that has no truck with petty hatreds harboured from way back.