BS: Idealism

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 01:21 PM

Idealism, however, can also be the ability to see perfection in what appears on the surface to be imperfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

From any point in time, causative and responsible action involves a vision of what might be.

Right now I am wrecking a piece of my house that was very badly designed long ago by someone who has no sense of design.

If you were to walk in you'd think I was a psycho vandal to see the mess.

(Well, you might be right, but that is a different issue!)

But I know where it is going and have a good idea what it will look like when I get there. At that point, I will assess the scene and decide where the next major departure from the ideal is and try to do something about it.

That's life. Without a sense of what COULD be there is no reason to move in any direction.

What are you waiting for?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

The target is always receding....

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

So - Rapaire the Shark! I agree though...

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM

If you're not imbued with a vision -- of anything -- you're not really alive. Could only be finding a really good cup of coffee....

To me, an ideal is a standard you strive for. Problem is that when you reach it you can stop there or move the goalpost.

If you stop, you've only achieved the minimum possible. I know of one 'catter who stopped for years and is RIGHT NOW moving forward again, going through hell to regain what was lost.

The standard has been moved, the ideal is changed.

Stopping means dying.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:09 AM

In my opinion, idealism is not pragmatism's opponent, but its handmaiden.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:57 AM

something to be said for pragmatists too

the world isn't perfect - fair play to those people who lead political parties as well as those who snipe endlessly from the sidelines

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:55 AM

I heard something 10-15 years ago that stuck in my mind, and in many ways describes my own attitude also:

"The opposite of good is not bad - it's perfect"; meaning that in always striving for perfection we sometimes bypass or ignore the 'good enough' and can lose it all for the sake of an ideal. But also that in accepting 'good enough' we can lose the impetus that might take us to perfection.

What does that make me? - an idealist compromiser is what I call myself. I love open-eyed idealism; it's blind idealism that scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: bill\sables
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 05:30 AM

(dick greenhaus here)
Seems to me that the existence of the Mudcat Cafe (and DigiTrad) are pretty good examples of idealism in action. But what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:41 PM

That only works, IMO, until you realize the degree to which you generate your own events by belief.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: jpk
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

idealism-it is nothing more than chasing a pipe dream,you can still achieve things but you will never make your goal.
being a cynic is not so bad,look for the good in people always,but be prepared for and ex pect the worsest.
when the first happens,you are pleasntly suprized.
when the later comes to pass you are not dissapointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM

One can, I am told, make a good living as an idealist in Las Vegas.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:36 PM

Sorry, Sham, but your humour was snippy.

She is saying something perfectly genuine about the nature of beauty in the moment of perception; if you don't understand it, just say so.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM

Where have you been, Wolfgang?

yes - people can be united around a positive idea or a negative idea. This happens all the time, whether its a nation or a knitting club.

Yes, idealism has a dark side - as many cults, religions, and political movements have shown.

i wonder, does that mean that idealism can be fanaticism, or obsession? or are these things perversions of idealism?

i guess the question is - what is the ideal being worked towards?

here are a couple of dictionary definitions of idealism -

i·de·al·ism (-d-lzm)
n.
1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal form.
2. Pursuit of one's ideals.
3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art.
4. Philosophy The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas.
.................

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 04:53 PM

Coming back after a break it is fun to read the old threads to which one might have contributed if one was here when the thread was new. I did like reading this particular thread and I only want to add a tiny bit to Dick's remark:

The word 'idealism(us)' has never been in more frequent use in Germany during the last century than during those 12 years that seemed to last 1000. The idealist leading Germany during that period really could put many of his ideas into action.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:09 PM

Thats funny Bruce! and thought provoking Take care pal.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:46 PM

Idealistic cynic believes that cynicism is perfect--but only on even-numbered days.

Cynical idealist believes that idealism is perfect--but only on odd-numbered days.

Or maybe it's the other way 'round.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM

Its quite possible to be an Idealist and a cynic..

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:56 AM

You may not agree with what the lady says, but making snippy remarks is not called for.

I was not addressing the lady. Or making snippy remarks. It was just an attempt at humour and clarification over your choice of words.

Germane - having close kinship and appropriateness



Pretentous - Intended to attract notice and impress others

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Shakey
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM

Unfettered idealism is like anything else unfettered, it's likely to go wandering aimlessly around the countryside or, worse still, wreak havoc on Joe Public. For an example of the former examine the the political left wing in Britain in the 60s, 70s and 80s, for the latter see Hitler or AQ, some would cite the neocons.

I'm all for idealist thinking, without it we're the poorer, but much better that it be firmly anchored to a large lump of pragmatism and critical debate. Dianavan wrote that " Ideals motivate us to be the best that we can be.", and I agree but the obverse of that particular coin is also true and who's to say which ideal is right.

Dianavan is also correct in that ideas, even great ideas are ten a penny, they need to be followed through.

And finally, sorry Amos but I'm with shambles, I think marie is talking utter drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:05 AM

Well said, Guy. Thats almost word for word what my father taught me.

Thanks freda, for starting this thread.

Once, in a sociology class, a student interrupted the prof. to object to a theory based on idealism. The prof replied that even if it was 'only an ideal' did that make it not worth striving for? In other words, it may not be a present reality but if you believe it to be fair and good you should strive for it because although it might not happen in your lifetime, the movement toward the ideal might be enough to improve our society. At least thats how I interpreted it.

I have also had to remind parents of 'gifted' children that it is not enough to only have wonderful ideas because our society does not tolerate unproductive geniuses very well. I think ideals combined with action has been the catalyst for most of the changes in our world.

Ideals also serve a purpose in personal development. Take the angry adolescent who has discovered that we live in a world with environmental catastrophe, discrimination, endangered species, famine and war. They often grieve their lost world of innocence and turn their anger toward society in general. Hopefully they will emerge with a set of ideals that will drive them forward into adulthood with the realization that they can make a difference.

Ideals motivate us to be the best that we can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 08:08 PM

I think its the only way to live.( in optomisum in the site of adversity) By that I mean living with the magic and picturing it makes somthing good happen . We are the thoughts and deeds we live . Heven and hell are right in front of us and the great thing about free will is we get to make the choices . What we do with what we get makes our heven or hell and us memorable or not..All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM

Martin Luther King, Jr. Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi were certainly idealists, and they accomplished a lot. Jesus was no slouch, either.

To flip the coin, does cyncicism accomplish much?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 04:16 PM

No, but perhaps "shamble" is. It may be less than obvious but the remarkable thing about beauty whether in art or in women (my favorite sources of it) or in sunrises on wide oceans, is the not-visible component caused by the imagination interacting with the harmonious webs of light, shadow, sound and other frequencies.

You may not agree with what the lady says, but making snippy remarks is not called for.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 04:10 PM

A fanatic is an idealist on the wrong side.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:51 PM

Again, I'd like to suggest Alan Watts book: The Wisdom Of Insecurity

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

Is germane another word for stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:19 PM

"Every thinking man, when he thinks, realizes that the teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life that it would be literally impossible for us to figure ourselves what that life would be if these standards were removed. We would lose almost all the standards by which we now judge both public and private morals; all the standards which we, with more or less resolution, strive to raise ourselves." -- Theodore Roosevelt

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:12 PM

What delights us in visible beauty is the invisible?

Marie needs to get out more

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Maw, I'm only sighing.

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Maw, it's life, and life only.

Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:13 PM

A lovely and somewhat germane quotation:

BEAUTY

What delights us in visible beauty is the invisible.

             Marie von Ebner Eschenbach



A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

If you can't first imagine it - it is unlikely to become reality.

Which is rather the way that those with no imagination or ideals - want it to be - and usually ensure that it ends-up.........

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:50 AM

The bit about macca reminds me, we're talking idealism yes?

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

John Lennon

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:48 AM

Badfinger also did one of the greatest rock songs ever: "Baby Blue".

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:12 AM

Badfinger did the sound track for the movie "The Magic Christian", and they sang that song, but McCartney wrote it...

Track 1:Come And Get It (Paul McCartney)

This fabulous song was recorded in Studio 2, at Abbey Road Studios on July 24, 1969, during the Abbey Road Sessions. With Paul at lead vocal, it was recorded the same day as "Sun King." Unreleased commercially by The Beatles, it was given to the band Badfinger, who recorded it and which became their first hit in 1970. This song by Badfinger was also featured in the movie, "The Magic Christian," which starred Peter Sellers and Ringo Starr.

http://www.iamthebeatles.com/article1045.html

On the subject of The Magic Christian, I loved the book and hated the movie. And the song that goes with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM

I agree with Carol, I think it was macca, Badfinger were signed to apple, this song had something to do with the film magic christian. I saw then long time ago before Peter Ham topped himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:08 AM

Paul McCartney????

http://www.inlyrics.com/lyrics/B/Badfinger/9796.html

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:15 PM

The Magic Christian:
"If you want it, HERE IT IS, come and get it, but you'd better hurry 'cause it may not last."

Correction...

"If you want it, HERE IT IS, come and get it, but you'd better hurry 'cause it may not last."

--Paul McCartney

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:24 AM

Idealism in action: an example of how a union saved Sydney's historic buildings..

The Builder's Labourers Federation in Sydney refused to demolish many historic buildings. In three years they placed green bans on 42 developments worth 5,000 million dollars, and so stopped developers razing the historic Rocks, much of Victoria Street in Kings Cross as well as Woolloomooloo. Jack Mundey was the Secretary of the NSW Branch of the BLF during the green ban period.

Jack Mundey: The time, look at the time. The time was the 60s. It was the time of the Vietnam War. We were opposed to the Vietnam War. We were the first union to bring down blacks and take them round the building sites get support when they went on strike at Garingee up in the Northern Territory. We fought at the time of the referendum, we fought for the right of the disgraceful position where our indigenious people were neglected. We fought for the rights of those people for that referendum. We were involved in all of those movements which I think made the union different.

..At the time there was a notion that all development was good and the thinking segment of the population started to question this. When heritage building after heritage building was razed to the ground, when people were turfed out of their homes to make way for high rise development, when whole communities were effected there was a changing nation. And having in mind that in the 60s and 70s at one stage there was something like four to five hundred resident action groups and they were part of the community. Those resident action groups and the environmentalists and the builder's labourers linking up together were a very potent force. And so, had it just been the Builder's Labourers on their own, we could never have achieved that.

But we had widespread support across the whole political spectrum. .. So, it was this dichotomy and this new dimension of people's concern for the environment that put the built environment on the agenda. Before the green bans there was a notion that the environment was the preserve of the better educated, well to do or middle upper classes and mainly about forests, or lakes or about the Barrier Reef of things like. Nature conservation.

But of course the point is that we are one of the most urbanised countries on earth. So the damage that this was doing to the city, this over development was doing to the city, the progressive segment of the population were right on side with the green ban, and were really instrumental in the green ban.

.. even though it was a small union we had a high level of union membership. Say 95% of all workers working as builder's labourers were in a union and also having in mind that we were the ones that did all the demolition. A building couldn't be demolished unless builder's labourers went on. Conversely, when the first footings of a new building commenced we were the ones in the bowels of the earth digging up and putting those footings in place. So we had enormous bargaining power as to the demolition of buildings and the building of buildings.

.. the Builder's Labourers even now 30 years on, 25 years on, are so respected because of the legacy that they left.

Jack Mundey is now the Chairman of the Historic Houses Trust of NSW
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/earth/stories/s18145.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 04:05 AM

Never eat at a place named "Mom's"

or play cards with a guy named "Doc"

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:27 AM

Akhenaton....1350 BC.

Why seekest thou revenge, O man!
With what purpose is it that thou pursuest it, thinkest thou to pain thine adversary by it?
Know that thou thyself feelest its greatest torments.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:57 AM

Lenin:
"You can always buy the rope from a capitalist to hang him with."

The Magic Christian:
"If you want it, HERE IT IS, come and get it, but you'd better hurry 'cause it may not last."

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:57 AM

Can an idealist ever achieve anything?

You could equally ask - what good is there in achieving anything without first having an ideal?

The purely idealistic and the purely practical both have limitations.

Combinations of these two extremes are probably produce the best results.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:54 AM

Tomasso Campanella...16th century Catholic priest.

"The people" is beast of muddy brain,who wages war for its chains, rather than be free.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:27 AM

Oscar Wilde: There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is to be staked out over hot coals with pickle juice poured in your eyes, while someone runs a red-hot Garden Weasel over your goolies.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:19 AM

Oscar Wilde: A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:15 AM

Carl Schurz: Ideals are like stars: you will not succeed in touching them with your hands, but like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose them as your guides, and following them you reach your destiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:08 AM

Wow. That man knew something about teaching.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:54 AM

Antoine de Saint-Exupery: "If you want to build a ship, don't herd people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea."

Subject: RE: BS: Idealism
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:39 PM

thanks Eric, Amos Carol and Ake - the answer is yes! (of course) - when idealists use their idealism positively, and work to make it happen. There is power in positive action. Later (when i get back from work) I'll add some more examples to others here - of things big & small that idealists have achieved.

and look forward to seeing more that anyone else might add.

freda