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BS: Rigging the Election
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: CarolC Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:35 AM Rigging Elections ... it's all part of American politics. It doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't. We can decide that we want open, honest, fair, and verifiable elections. And we can make it happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: number 6 Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:14 AM Rigging Elections .... this has been going on since the inception of the democratic voting process .... human fallacy ... were there is greed for power, greed will find it's way. Didn't Joe Kennedy fix the electorial vote in the state of Illinois ... well, if he didn't directly 'fix it' he urged some shady organization to do the actual dirty work, to ensure John would win. Rigging Elections ... it's all part of American politics. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Peace Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:59 PM Where are the Woodwards today? Where are the folks who will stand up and put it on the line? I had always thought these people were in government, in the news business, in the pulpits, in law offices, in courts, in police departmments, in the FBI. I was wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: CarolC Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:53 PM One hears and reads quite a few stories these days about respected journalists quitting their jobs at supposedly respectable news outlets because of pressure from people higher up in those organizations to not report things that would cause discomfort for certain people. Happens more and more often as time goes by. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:32 PM Well, lets not overlook the very real fact that 99% of big media is in favor if droppin' the FCC ownership regs, includin' what Dougie would consider the liberal media... These media fat cats have been all over Bush and the former FCC chairman, Michel Powell (yeah, son of Colin...) showerin' them with dough tryin' to get these regs dropped... Bush has also bent over backwards in tryin' to get them dropped... This would mean even greater media consolidation which would not only kill off local medai but also bring about a situation where Americans wopuld be hearin just one voice??? One voice ain't exactly what Tom Jefferson had in mind in warning that if democrcay was to survive it would do so based on an "informed electorate"... With one voice, that of Boss Hog's bought-n-paid-for governemnt, there ain't no reason to go wavin' no flags about what a wonderful thing democracy is... Be nice to have democracy, tho.... Problem is is that is is DOA in the USA... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Peace Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:26 PM Of course, I wonder what the elected representatives of the American people are doing about corruption--other than being involved in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Don Firth Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:22 PM For the most part, Peace, Washington does. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Peace Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:00 PM The press has become a sorry remnant of what it used to be. Once it was an important institution--generally respected and trusted. There are very few papers I'd trust anymore. Counting on the press to tell the truth or unveil corruption--hell, ya might as well let Washington write the friggin' news. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:56 PM DougR said, in part: Neither you, or Amos, are addressing the question of why the mainstream press hasn't been on this story like flies on you-know-what. It can't be because they are in the pockets of the hated Republican Party, surely you don't believe that. One of the great classical fallacies in logic is "The appeal to authority." The idea is that "If the president" --or Senator X, or whoever is highly placed "said X, then we should assume it's so." DougR's quote above is in effect that fallacy, turned inside out, in effect, "If the authorities don't say thus-and-so, then it must be horse pucky!" And that, in this sort of case, is even more fallacious! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM When Greg Palist brought up the fact to the mainstream press that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris had rigged the 2000 election in Florida, the mainstream press ignored them... Some 5 motnhs later the Washington Post did runa short article on page A-17 about the evidence that Palist had tried to get the mainstream so-called liberal press to pay attention to.... If Dougie would reasd Palast's bok,"the Best Democracy Money Can Buy" then he'd know just waht went down... And he might even have a little understanding just why he doesn't know what is going down??? Fox ain't new's, Dougie. It's 24/7 brainwashing... It has nuthin' more to do with news than American Idol... I loves ya, Dougie, but you are one *ignorant* guy... Did you watch the entire tape that Amos put up here??? I doubt very seriously that you did... Why? Becuase you are very comfy in yer ignorance... Hey, I don't mean that in any way to be disrespectful because lots of folks just really don't want to be bothered with stuff they don't like... Hey, that's purdy much human nature and it'as okay... I still likes ya and loves ya but you sho nuff ain't got no openess to yer mind... No judegment.... Jus' observation... Now come on over here an' get a big hug, Big Guy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:47 PM Don: Thanks for the stirring report. I am going on line to find the book now. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:44 PM Doug: There is no way to predict what the mainstream press will or will not cover; for the most part they are owned by the same interests who support big-business, and the ideals of the Fourth Estate are badly crimped and mangled by the large corporate ownership and the bedding of business and politics carried to new extremes since your bumbling hatemonger took office. If you doubt what I am saying, explain why a reporter who declined to divulge sources for a story she did not write is doing in prison this afternoon. And be sure to 'fess up if you aren't sure what I am talking about; surely the duty of all good party members is to be able to defend party decisions, don't you think? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Don Firth Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:40 PM Doug, why this has not been reported in the press is a very good question indeed. You did watch the video, didn't you? I really don't think that was put together by Michael Moore. But then, you seem to think so. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Don Firth Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM I am currently reading First Democracy : The Challenge of an Ancient Idea by Paul Woodruff, Professor of Ethics and American Society at the University of Texas in Austin (got that? At the University of Texas.). This is a fascinating study of the history of democracy, with an incisive analysis of how democracy was conceive in ancient Greece, how it was put into practice in Athens, how it worked, and how it didn't work—warts and all. Woodruff doesn't make the mistake of positing a "golden age" of democracy in Athens; he points out that the Athenians kept slaves and that women were not allowed to participate in government (there were many men at the time who maintained that this was not right). When the democratic principles the Athenians attempted to live by didn't work, the reasons were pretty clear. But for the most part, many of the ideas they put into practice worked very well indeed, and we could learn much by examining the way they did things. The concept that not only should all citizens be allowed to participate, but that they should be required to participate was something they took very seriously. For example, there were political factions, of course, but there were no political parties, certainly not in the way we have them now. And not just certain people selected by the wealthy elite were presented as candidates for public office. All citizens of Athens were potential candidates. In fact, all citizens were candidates. Education was a primary concern in Athens, so the literacy rate was high. It was expected of the citizens of Athens that they keep themselves fully aware of current events. To be well-informed. Because they might very well be called upon to be involved in making the necessary decisions. You see, public officials were not voted into office; they were chosen from the citizenry at large by lottery. Like juries are selected today in the United States. Any registered voter can be called to jury duty at any time (and has to have a pretty darned good reason if they want to get out of it). And in ancient Athens, any citizen could suddenly find himself in public office. And it was his obligation as a citizen of Athens to serve if called upon. [Incidentally, public official's were paid reasonably well (not the $5.00 a day or whatever token stipend modern jurors get), so they didn't lose by it, although they certainly didn't get rich.] I could go on and on, but I would strongly recommend that anyone who assumes that he or she knows how democracy works and what it is really all about—and how and why it sometimes doesn't work—should hie themselves to their local library and check this out. Or better still, buy a copy, read it carefully, and keep it handy for reference. Among other things, Woodruff details and explains the seven requirements of democracy. And he ends the book with a chapter entitled, "Are Americans Ready for Democracy?" Get it. Read it. Learn. You might be surprised. You'll certainly look at the way this country operates in a new way—as if you've just wiped the fog off your glasses. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Kaleea Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM "My brother promised me Florida. I believed him. I won." G.W.Bush to reporters right after 1st election |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Ebbie Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM I agree with you on that, Doug. smiles |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: DougR Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:22 PM Don: I don't doubt that elections can be rigged. I doubt, however, that they were (the ones in question). Neither you, or Amos, are addressing the question of why the mainstream press hasn't been on this story like flies on you-know-what. It can't be because they are in the pockets of the hated Republican Party, surely you don't believe that. Ebbie: I do not take it personally. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You live in a neat little town by the way. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Don Firth Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM Doug—and others—I am not talking specifically about the 2000 or the 2004 elections. Although there is plenty of indication that there was hanky-panky in Florida in 2000 and similar questionable procedures in Ohio in 2004, I don't know whether the vote was cobbled or not—and neither do you! It is a fact that in Florida in 2000, some 57,000, people were denied the vote on the basis that they were convicted felons, and that it was later proven that the information against them was false. Most of these supposed "felons" were black, and according to electoral history, it was fairly safely assumed that about 90% of their vote would have gone to Gore. So what really happened is still up in the air and merits a thorough investigation, which, under the Bush administration, will never happen. What I am talking about is the information revealed on the film clip that Amos posted to. If you actually watched it, and listened, and paid attention to what was being said, then it should be clear to you that the mechanism for fixing elections is now in place—and was in place back then. The fact that now elections can be fixed this easily should have you very apprehensive about the future of democracy in this country. That is, if you really care about democracy and not just having your preferences in power. Just remember: this kind of thing is a two-edged sword. It can cut both ways! You can't just "horse pucky" this one away, Doug, and consider yourself to be a good American. I don't think you are a stupid person, but I sometimes wonder what it will take to rouse you out of your smug complacency. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM Another comment on this video testimony, providing a bit more context: "The Clint Curtis sworn testimony was given during the hearings organized by John Conyers in December 2004. Rep. Conyers brought the hearings to Columbus, Ohio to focus attention on the machinations of Secretary of State Blackwell, who refused to testify at these hearings. Plenty of other people did testify, including the bombshell of Clint Curtis' surprise appearance. Conyers' book "What Went Wrong in Ohio" was the title and reference for the Harper's article and documents the facts and testimony from these hearings. The press has largely ignored the issue and these hearings. I have not heard whether any credible reporter has even thought to ask Rep. Tom Feeney whether these allegations were true. Since these hearings, Feeney has been caught up in the Delay lobbyist payola scandals. Feeney was on the DeLay-Jack Abramoff golf junket to Scotland, and has been one of the biggest takers of DeLay cash. Why would we not believe the programmer? Perhaps only if the context of the video could not be validated.:" A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Peace Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM "It's not who votes that count, it's who counts the votes." That quotation (or something like it) is attributed to Stalin--althought there is no proof he ever said that. But, there is truth in it anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:01 PM From the person who sent the link out : Wow, I got lot's of hate mail regarding the video. Proof positive that sending it to you was the right thing to do. When there is such a negative response to something like this, it means more people need to see it. Thanks for posting it. JB A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM The August cover story of Harper's Magazine is about "What Went Wrong in Ohio". They also have an audio file from a forum on the topic: http://www.harpers.org/WhatWentWrongInOhio.html Regards, C > > > Begin forwarded message: > > Subject: Re: [IP] Video Testimony > > > The panel holding the 12/13/2004 hearing consisted of Democratic > members of the House Judiciary Committee. They were conducting an > investigation into 2004 election irregularities. The unscheduled, > surprise witness testified about the 2000 election in Florida. His > testimony was requested to show that something similar could have > happened in Ohio in 2004. The video has been available online since > December. > > LT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Ebbie Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:41 PM Doug's reaction reminds me of a similar reaction by my sister to a very different situation occurring in professional sports. A couple of us were talking about football (USA) Coach Woody Hays during a game punching out a player of the opposing side. It was an unseemly, unprecedented violation of professionalism. My sister- profoundly non-interested or experienced in sports - sniffed. It doesn't surprise me, she said. They do that kind of thing all the time. My brothers and I looked at her in disbelief. There is no arguing that kind of stupidity. Nothing personal, of course, Doug. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:43 PM Unverified blogs? Excuse me, but that was not an unverified blog, it was a video of a state Senate investigation. Or do you think in your fantastic rationalization that a bunch of whacko liberals put on court garb and set that whole thing up? Maybe you feel the democratic process SHOULD be sold out to the slickest operator, pal, but I do not. It seems to me you fail to appreciate the historical reasons it was such an unusual and valuable idea in the first place. Or perhaps the history of the species is irrelevant to you, as you are still trying to figure out which one is yours. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: CarolC Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM I don't think anything has been proven yet, DougR, but the man did testify under oath. That, combined with Mr. Feeney's conflicts of interest, certainly warrant an independent investigation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: DougR Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:05 PM Surely there MUST be. My comment to you, Don Firth, is when was this stupendous story reported on CNN? Perhaps while I was on vacation? Do you and Amos (and any others) truly believe that a story of that magnitude would not have been reported by the networks and liberal press if, in fact, it proved that the election was rigged? If you do, I have some ocean-front property etc. etc. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: CarolC Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM Feeney, who had run in 1994 as Jeb Bush's running-mate in his initial unsuccessful bid for Florida Governor, was serving as both corporate counsel and registered lobbyist for YEI during the period that Curtis worked at the company. Feeney was also concurrently serving as a Florida state congressman while performing those services for YEI. Feeney would eventually become Speaker of the Florida House before being elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2002. He is now a member of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee. Surely there's at least some sort of illegal conflict of interest there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Shakey Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM Amos, what did the police say when you reported it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: GUEST,G Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM Smooth intro, Amos. I admire people of intellect and good grooming so this IS NOT a compliment to you. "The point is not the elections". Obviously I misread the thread title. Another prime example of desparate people searching unverified Blogs in order to continue their excerise in futility. Software? Most card readers are programmed with a hardboard panel and patch cords. Although a throw back to the 60's, it was probably the safest method of voting if a person would want their vote to be counted as cast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:50 AM You are missing the point, Dildo-breath. This is an egregious, explicit and overt attempt to throw the mechanism of democraticprocess into the trash. This is the Republican party playing Boss Tweed, Tammany Hall, miring the basic structure of our life in their self-serving webs of self-interest. The point is not the elections. The point is intentional criminal erosion of our best processes and undermining our global structure in the interests of petty local identities. This is criminal abuse of power. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: GUEST,G Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM Puhleeze! The ballots in Florida ended up going through many MANUAL recounts by both both officials and CBS, NY Times, CNN, etc. Manual - that means looking where the 'hole' was punched. maybe even dimpled. "Testimony under oath" has lost its' importance. Remember WJC? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: GUEST,TIA Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:58 AM By the way - here's the real conspiracy clue...that guy looks just like Larry Bird!!!! Coincidence???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: GUEST,TIA Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:56 AM When the allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib first surfaced, DougR's one-word response was "horsepucky". He never explained whether this meant that 1) it didn't happen, or 2) if it did, he didn't care. Above, Amos got the verbose version of horsepucky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: GUEST,clogger Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM Call me a misguided cynic but......YES Diddn't Bush (snr) delay the release of the hostages untill he was President? Lowinski's mother keped "the" dress in a deep freeze (just in case)to discredit Clinton! George W had a dodgy ballot form set up in at least one state! What makes you think it is fixed. Looks like the good ol' USA from here!!!! I always wondered where they got the characters for "Deadwood" from ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Don Firth Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:51 PM Doug, you leave me speechless! But not quite! If it were the Democrats doing this sort of thing, you'd be leading the charge. But when there is the possibility that this kind of electronic election rigging results in your party getting in, it's just fine and dandy with you! You just blow it off. Man, where is your sense of ethics? Do you think cheating on elections—just as long as your party gets in—is the American Way? Political advisors and campaign managers with the ethical sense of those such as Karl Rove count on the fact that the Jeffersonian ideal of an informed electorate is shaky at best these days. Misinformation promulgated by the corporate owned news media and general voter apathy is what they count on. But the ability to switch a few bits and bytes here and there just makes sure that there will be no "mistakes." Just the possibility of this kind of election rigging should be enough to have people—Democrats and Republicans alike—rioting in the streets. And you right along with them. No, this is not just fighting the 2000 election all over again. This is deep concern about the future of democracy in this country. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:39 PM Testimony under oath, Doug. The guy swore he developed it at the instructions of a superior, for the purpose of winning the election in Florida. Or didn't you listen all the way through. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Rigging the Election From: DougR Date: 31 Jul 05 - 03:26 PM Still fighting the battle of the 2000 election, huh, Amos. I listened to the tape. A lot of opinion, speculation, etc. No proof, however, that such a program, if it was developed, was used. If there was proof there would be headlines in every newspaper around the world. I've seen no such headlines, have you? It is the stuff from which conspiracy theories are hatched. DougR |
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Subject: BS: Rigging the Election From: Amos Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM At this site (http://www.iwilltryit.com/fixed1.htm) there is a video of testimony by aprogrammer who asserts that he wrote a program to throw the elections in the state of Florida. A |
