BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?

Subject: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:19 PM

Anser= No.

THere is probly about 3 million muslims in uk, some of them are loonies, [but pobably less than 1 in a thousand!

most [almost all of them] are normal, hardworking people.

I spent last 16 years working for muslims, they normal folk, trying to make a livingf]!


too much racism about nowadays, lets calm it down and get on with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:21 PM

Actually, since most of the Moslems I know are caucasian, it is bigotry, not racism. And yes, there is too much- ANY is too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:24 PM

There is a number of muslims who believe that all non muslims are rubbish as there is a number of non muslims who believe that all muslims are rubbish, these are the one's who cause all the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:26 PM

agreed. but rather than look to assign blame, let us look for a solution ( or solutions).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:28 PM

Any ideas bb?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:31 PM

Please see my post on "How to end racism " thread.

too much moaning about muslims, pising me off.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:39 PM

I wish I did.

But the present tendency to keep looking for someone to blame- Israel, the US, Western Culture, etc. is not the way. There is blame for all parties. If the moderate Moslems would just make it known that the extremists are NOT a part of their religion, perhaps there would be less animosity towards them. The recent Fatwa was a good step- but it took how long? The fatwas against Rushdie were out before the book was published- but this is the first fatwa against terrorism...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:43 PM

bearded bruce-are you an idiot?

I am currently wearing a blue jacket, do you feel it is neccasery for me to apologise to anyone who has ever been mugged by men wearing blue jackets?


lets assume you are a christian, if therewas a bombing or wahtever by christians, would you aplogise for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:44 PM

Qoute= "I wish i did"


you wish you had waht?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:47 PM

fatwas are NOT apologies- They are statements of religious law. The terrorists claim that they are acting according to Islamic law- the fatwa is a statement that they are not.

If I were a christian, and a group claiming to be acting according to the bible performed a terrorist act, such as bombing a clinic, I would certainly want the leaders of my religion to make a statement that the act was NOT according to the religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:50 PM

I wish I did have ideas that would be solutions to the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:45 PM

Why have religion in the first place? It's only ever caused death and destruction the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:11 PM

Religion can be used for good or evil. What causes the wars is the different views on religion. Too many people believe that theirs is the only true religion and that every one else is wrong and must be put right.

I'd say that lack of tolerance is probably the cause of a lot of the violence that has plagued the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: NH Dave
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:38 PM

I don't know if Muslims are rubbish or not, but I do know it took three and a half years for moderate Muslims to declare a fatwah on the actions of their terroristic bretherin. Unfortunately that only came after and perhaps as a result of the bombings in London. I'll believe that they are not all homicidal maniacs when the denials of the ravings of the homicidal few are immediately denounced by their cooler thinking   coreligionists.

   What I do know is that at the rate they are immigrating and reproducing, they will soon become the majority in many of the European countries, and will be making the rules by which the rest of us will be governed.

   Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Paul G.
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:52 PM

Religion is rubbish because if you can be persuaded that there is a supreme being who made all things and has a heaven for those who do what he/she wants, then you can believe anything - even believe that this supreme being wants you to kill people who do not believe what you believe.

This is your one life. You might not like it all that much but make the best of it. Get along with other people. Do not kill them. It is all we've got. There's nothing beyond, after you're dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:08 AM

harpgirl -

Zawahiri vowed that the U.S. and British people "will have no security until we have it and live it in Palestine and until their atheist armies pull out from the land of Prophet Mohammed."

From the Aljazeera videotape.

Thats not the same as trying to impose your religious ideals on others at all. It sounds to me it is just another way of saying 'Yanqui go home' so that they can continue to practice their religion within their own culture in their own land.

Lets not forget that it is America who is the aggressor in Iraq and Israel who is the 'new kid on the block."

Yes, I hate religious persecution and think it has no place in politics. Maybe if we can get past calling it a 'religious war', we can begin to understand what the terrorists are saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

Harpgirl is right. Once he adds "God willing" to his demands and threats, it's all down to religion. The human race will never progress till it stops killing itself and kills God.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

No, if you are willing to kill over that, you'll just find something in the place of religion. If any of you seriously believe in the equasion 'no religion = no war' you haven't a clue about the human race. The causes go far deeper.
What causes war is people are out for gain or revenge or any number of things.
People like that I say aren't truly religious but using it as a pretext. Remove that and they will find something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: s6k
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:33 AM

agreee with j0hn

and muslims are not rubbish, but religion is rubbish, theres too many people, british and otherwise, who think that all muslims are bad. no theyre not. Cat Stevens is Muslim - look what he has done for werld peace.

these twats who say kill all muslims etc should get a grip on the facts

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:51 AM

Religion is about as much rubbish as Muslims, or Jews, or Brits, Americans, French, Spanish, Russians, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:51 AM

dianavan

Where would you have the Israelis go?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 08:06 AM

these twats who say kill all muslims etc should get a grip on the facts

Are people really saying kill all muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Tam the man
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:33 AM

What is Normal?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:40 AM

What a silly name for a thread. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

I think that the name of this thread is beyond silly. I think it is very disturbing, very negative, and very demeaning to Muslims as a group and to 'Catters as a group.

This does not mean that I believe that all 'Catters or most Catters accept that depiction of Muslims or the Muslim religion, or even think the question is a valid one for consideration. However, IMHO, for this question to even be raised in this manner does not speak well of us.

I'm wondering has there been a comparable thread titled "Are Christians Rubbish?" or "Are Jews Rubbish?"

Given the fact that there is currently rampant fear and bigotry against Muslims, to initiate such a discussion now plays into the hands of those who are just looking for an opening to spead their particular brand of poison.

I regret that this thread provides such an opportunity.


Azizi

PS:

Since some people may question my religious affiliation because they are unfamiliar with my Swahili name {which is similar to an Arabic name}, let me state for the record that I'm not Muslim and have never been Muslim. However, I do know good people of various races who are Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:53 AM

No disrespect, but isn't Azizi a male name? it does mean the same as Aziz though doesn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

bobad - I don't think the Israeli's should "go" anywhere. I do think they must begin to respect their neighbors and stop threatening them with expansion. I also think that they should seek a solution to the Palestinian conflict and quit leaning on the U.S. for support.   

I would like to see the Palestinians and the Israelis living in harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:37 PM

Off Topic

Le Scaramouche, "Azizi" is a female KiSwahili name. This name almost certainly came from the Arabic female Arabic name "Aziza". The male KiSwahili and Arabic name is "Aziz".

See this information from Wikipedia:
"Aziz, originally a Syriac word and name, is also an Arabic name, and spans other areas such as Russia. Aziz is translated to Darling in the English language. Aziz is a common name for people from Assyrians to Kurds, and there are many famous people that went by the name Aziz, such as Aziz Karl, a ruthless warrior in the 2nd century. The name Aziz is also close to the Hebrew name Isaac but they two names are not of the same origin. Although now a rare name, it spans from mediterranean areas to Europe and Asia including of Russia, Armenia, and others."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz

-snip-

"Azizi" [Aziza] is usually given as meaning "precious". In the late 1960s when I was given this 'free' name, I was told that it meant "one who is rare and precious". In the 1990s-early 2000s several Muslims told me that the name "Aziz' means "powerful [one] or mighty [one]. I have read that the widely used two part name "Adul-Aziz" means "servant of the powerful one" or "servant of the mighty one"-abdul=servant; aziz=powerful. The powerful/mighty one is a referent for God [Allah]. I have also had Muslims tell me that "Azizi" means "darling". These three meanings may actually be related as ,presumably, if a woman serves God {Allah} they would be precious, well loved, and fondly thought of being a "darling".

I suppose that 'powerful/mighty' definition is considered to reserved mostly for the masculine form of this name, and the "precious, rare, darling" part for the feminine. But I like the fact that my name evokes all of these vibrations.

BTW, 'free name' was the term used in the late 1960s, 1970s by African Americans. The term refers to the traditional African and Arabic personal names that were used in place of European and Hebrew personal names which were called 'slave names". Traditional African and Arabic names were adopted in place of these birth names to reflect a hightened sense of pride in African heritage. Usually [afrocentric} African Americans changed their first names and retained their "European" surnames {last names}. However, some African Americans also adopted Arabic or African last names too..

As to why so many African Americans during that time and since have given themselves or their children Arabic names:
1.Islam was part of West Africa as early as the 9th century. And some enslaved African Americans were Muslim
[See Islam in West Africa ]

2. Arabic names [and the Arabic language} were more familiar to
   African Americans than traditional African names/language

3. Arabic names are easy to pronouce, largely conform to African
   American sound preferences and such European practices as having
   a female name end with an "a"

4. Arabic names were popularized by African American [jazz] musicians
   such as Ahmad Jamal and Jusef Latif and prominent sports figures
   such as Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

etc. etc. etc.

Thanks for the question.

[Sister} Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:01 PM

Ok, thanks for clearing up the gender of the name.
Article makes a few mistakes, especialy on Isaac which is nothing of the sort. It means 'will laugh' and is pronounced Eetz-khak.
Yeah, I know what a free name is and think Muhammad Ali's is the most ironic.
Actualy, Arab names aren't easy to pronounce by Americans, at least haven't heard them pronounced the right way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:03 PM

Well Azizi, i'm all for open free debate on any issue. I don't believe any subject should be out of bounds of free debate.

I openly welcome the debate on Muslim minority extremists, but the naming of this thread is silly. Are Muslims rubbish, only an idiot would answer yes. So, the thread question basically leads anyone who critisizes Muslim Extremists to be in the extremist catagory. As that person would presumably by his/her critisizm be implying that muslims are rubbish?

It is indeed a silly thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:54 PM

Since I went off topic anyway, let me continue by responding to
Le Scaramouche's comment that "Actualy, Arab names aren't easy to pronounce by Americans".

I agree that we Americans have our own way of pronouncing different names from English and other languages. And I'll go further and say that African Americans have pronunciation traditions that often are different than those of European Americans.

For example, I believe that Americans routinely place the accent on the 2nd to the last syllable of a name. However, there's a difference in how we pronounce the 'a' vowel..as in the name "Tanya"

White Americans- TAN [rhymes with fan] yah

Black Americans- TAHN-yah

****

That "a"="ah" pronunciation by African American is used throughout our vocal music and rhymes. For example, there's a common starting chant for children that goes like this

a one
and a two
and you know what to do

-snip-

In this rhyme "a" is pronounced 'ah' and not like the 'a' in 'say'.

I just thought you might want to know more about this off topic info...


Azizi {ah-ZEE-zee}

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:09 PM

Well I speak a Semitic language you see so none of this is new. Anyway, Arabic is a beast to pronounce properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:15 PM

harpgirl - You said,

"Why have religion in the first place? It's only ever caused death and destruction the world over."

You might say exactly the same thing about money.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: s6k
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 09:22 PM

yes, people are saying kill muslims.... you hear these idiot people now and again, either on TV or down the pub, saying, get rid of muslims, kill muslims etc, theyre a bunch of terrorists, bunch of suicide bombers, etc.

these people are arse holes and dim-wits

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:49 AM

saying, get rid of muslims, kill muslims etc, theyre a bunch of terrorists, bunch of suicide bombers, etc.

these people are arse holes and dim-wits

Infortunately, not everyone can be as enlightened as yourself, however, i have never heard anyone talk about killing Muslims, but on the canvassing doorstep, i DO hear a lot of people saying it is time to stop immigration, and that multi-culturalism has failed.

You might not like it, but it's a fact. Another fact, is that the bombers were Muslim, and they intepretated the Koran to suit their agenda that terror bombings and murder were justified.

It is useless to blame all Muslims, as most are hard-working decent people, but when you consider 60% of immigrants coming into the UK are Muslim, and that most of them come from Afghanistan and such places, there is clearly a danger that only a dim-wit would deny.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM

I think The Rt. Hon. Sir jOhn from Kingston-upon-Hull meant the title to be silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:35 AM

David, you quote others as saying "multiculturalism has failed". That is a nonsense statement, because multiculturalism is not an experiment; it's not something we try to see if we like it. It's a fact of life. The world is multicultural; Europe is multicultural; Britain is multicultural, since the Anglos and Saxons and Normans.

It's how it is. And in the modern age, with communications and transport so easy, cross-border movement is high. Sure, when large numbers of people move around, you get some bad ones amongst them too. And you get some brilliant ones; and many hardworking ones. You don't penalise the 999 good ones to save yourself from the one bad one. You have to be more intelligent than that.

Certainly more intelligent than using statements like "Afghanistan and such places". Need I remind you that one of the people killed in the recent London bombings was a young Afghani professional who had fled his home country to avoid the Taliban? Sweeping statements are not arguments for your cause.

Must try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:41 AM

David, you quote others as saying "multiculturalism has failed". That is a nonsense statement, because multiculturalism is not an experiment; it's not something we try to see if we like it. It's a fact of life. The world is multicultural; Europe is multicultural; Britain is multicultural, since the Anglos and Saxons and Normans.

Multi-culturalism has failed, the reason i say this is because the immigration, if it can be called that, that you refer to were of european origin, normans, vikings, saxons, etc, were all of same heritage, identity, culture etc. We are one and the same people.

But when two completely distinct cultures try to merge, all that results is disharmony. No multi-cultural state has ever survived, and historically only mono-cultural states have been stable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:13 AM

Only monocultural states have been stable? What - Hitler's Germany? Mao's China? Shevardnadze's Georgia? Mugabe's Zimbabwe (or Smith's Rodesia before that)? Or the Greece of the Colonels' Junta, with their "Greece for Christian Greeks" slogan in the 1960s?

America, and Australia, and Britain, and my own home country, and Spain, and Italy, and the new South Africa and even France and the Netherlands, and even Belgium with its "Flams Blok" are all multicultural. And they're doing OK - nobody is completely free of problems, not all the time; and their tolerance can be taken advantage of; but as societies they work.

You really must find some new arguments, David - the old ones are frayed at the edge by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 07:13 AM

Surely it is ignorance that is dangerous? An ignorant mind is like a blank canvas upon which anything can be written.
There is, surely, in this 'information rich' age, no excuse for ignorance. I feel that, far too often, ignorance is wilful. In Western culture, at least, far too many people see education as being 'uncool'and willingly embrace ignorance. In Western, and many other cultures, I suspect, some religious leaders and political idealogues rely on the ignorance of others in order to sustain their power bases.
Those who rely on ignorance in order to sustain their power and/or wealth are like parasites on the human race. I believe that it is the political and moral duty of everyone on the planet to educate themselves and others so that we can eliminate these evil leeches forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

Only an idiot would say that because they are Europeans they share the same identity or heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:57 AM

Only an idiot would say they didn't share the same heritage and idendity

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:17 AM

Oh yes, an East-Anglian fisher shared the same identity as a Flemish weaver, Breton smuggler, Cumbrian reiver, German mercenary, Sephardi merchant, Welsh shepherd, Hebridean pirate, whatnot.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

Oh dear, oh dear. lol.

Please get an education then come back thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:32 PM

David - Educate yourself! Take a course in cultural anthropology.

Do you really think the Celts and the Romans had a common culture?

Just because people are from the same continent, doesn't mean they share the same customs and beliefs. They did not have the same heritage and identity (whatever that means).

You'll have to think of a better argument than that. You just come across as ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:45 PM

What of all the attacks against foreigners, notably the Flemish weavers and Hanseatic merchants?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:50 PM

France, BTW is an example of a multi-cultural state even before the North Africans.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:01 PM

I told him so 8 posts back, Scaramouche. His response was to call others idiots and uneducated for believing that Europeans have a mix of cultures. Let's face it, he can't very well afford to say "yes, folks, you're right, multiculturalism works, I'll just pop back into the BNP office and rewrite the propaganda"...

Conversion of DH is not what we're after, therefore; it will never happen. I don't know about you, I do it for the fun of seeing how far logic and fact can be twisted to support the BNP positions. It's not proper humour, I know. But it's fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:11 PM

Europeans do not share the same heritage and identity.

Hundreds of examples prove you are wrong.

You are the idiot, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:21 PM

Oh, I just like history, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Once upon a time, somebody said "those who repeat history are doomed to remember it".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

Look what you started Sir jOhn. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM

The USSR tried to impose a monoculture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:59 AM

Istanbul (or Constantinople) was once the most multicultural city in the WORLD and guess what, it worked out just fine.
Our resident BNPer when faced with a short (and incomplete) list of the different sorts that made up his island, without a shared identity, tells me to get an education. Do the BNP have a scholarship programme?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM

Just because people are from the same continent, doesn't mean they share the same customs and beliefs. They did not have the same heritage and identity (whatever that means).

You'll have to think of a better argument than that. You just come across as ignorant.

There is absolutely no doubt that we, in western europe share the same distinct traits that make us so similar. We share:

Common blood-lines.

Cultural Similarities such as architecture, music, arts, science, progressive science, literature.

We share the same faiths, or straints of the same faith.

Our political institutions are similar.

Our history is entwined with our development as a civillization.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:34 PM

Europeans do not share the same heritage and identity.

This is the most ridiculous statement i have ever read

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM

An Ionian sponge-fisher shares the same identity as a financier from Luxembourg?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:44 PM

If we are to follow your logic, then the Turks have the same identity and heritage as someone from Vienna. If you can't tell me why then you have no idea about European culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM

If we are to follow your logic, then the Turks have the same identity and heritage as someone from Vienna

explain

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

Read some history, Guest. Scaramouche is no doubt alluding to the siege of Vienna by the Ottoman armies. And the fact that Turkish heritage (provenance, culture, language) is down to the Seldjuk Turks, of Mongolian ancestry. While Austrians trace their heritage to the Von Trapp family of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

If it's DH, why should I explain? Thought you knew so much about the culture and heritage of Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:16 PM

I also reffer to something apart from the siege of Vienna.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:49 PM

David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Cultures share a common language, David. In that way they pass down their traditions and beliefs. In fact, those beliefs are imbedded in the language.

Traditional art, music and literature is different in every country of Europe. The English may borrow from other European cultures and vice versa but they are not the same culture nor do they share a common history. Speaking of 'borrowing', most of our science and math was borrowed from Muslim cultures.

Where do you think the cradle of modern civilization might be?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Shakey
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

most of our science and math was borrowed from Muslim cultures.

Ugh?

Some, fairly early science comes from muslim countries, plenty actually pre-date Islam. Using the word most is simply ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 11:10 PM

Here's a nice story...

New York City cabbie returns forgotten jewelry to Montreal businessman

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Shooosh
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:11 AM

El Greko is rubbish and big 'ead an all.
True.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM

Correction - Most of our early scientific and mathematical concepts were borrowed from the Arabic centers of learning.

Don't forget that included parts of southern France and most of the Iberian penninsula long after the adoption of Islam. Thats when southern Europe was truly multicultural and ideas were shared.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 03:45 AM

How do you think most of the classical texts were preserved?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:44 AM

El Greko, are you sure that the Seldjuk (Seljuk?)Turks were from Mongolia? My understanding is that all Turkish speaking peoples were/are descended from a separate group of Central Asians unrelated to Mongolians (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:59 AM

From the general region. Things were pretty fluid. The Seldjuks come from the Oghuz Turks, who aren't Mongols, but related.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:20 AM

A very good story, Carol.

Its good to know that the American spirit is alive and well in New York city!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 07:48 AM

OK, scrap the "Mongolian ancestry" and replace with "related to...". As Scaramouche says, they came from the same region, and are related. This shows in the structure, especially syntax, of the Turkish language, which has many similarities to Hungarian and Finnish (both those countries have had heavy influx from the same general region).

Scaramouche beats me in history, by the sound of it - I always hated it at school, and my interest is comparatively recent. But the general gist is there (thanks, S).

Now, Guest DB, your point was...?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:13 AM

Lovely the way DH expects everyone to answer his questions, but I've asked three which he hasn't bothered to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:48 AM

Cut him some slack - he's a politician

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:51 AM

People elect that man to govern???????????? You folks are in trouble. Looks like the US doesn't have sole provenance on electing bigots and fools.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:55 AM

Sad to say you're right (hangs head in shame)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:01 AM

You're right, El Greko. Nearly forgot he was a Black Short.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:53 AM

Lovely the way DH expects everyone to answer his questions, but I've asked three which he hasn't bothered to answer.

Sorry, i try to answer as many questions, or give my opinion when i can, but i do lose some, i am also answering a lot of PM's.

What was the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:44 AM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?
2) Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.
3) David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:17 AM

BTW, can guests get PMs?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:36 PM

Dear El Greko - I was just being pedantic (can't help it)- but, then, "the Devil is in the details" isn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:37 PM

Not sure, i know members can.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:29 PM

What of questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM

No worries, Guest, as a prize pedant myself I cannot cast any stones...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?
2) Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.
3) David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

I do not share a common heritage with the portuguese, lol. You are reffering here to geographical placement only.

When you consider Britain has seen invasions from the Normans, Vikings, Germans etc, these are all of northern european stock. This is the difference.

However, there is a huge difference between assimiliating peoples of a very similar stock, culture, etc, than assimiliating peoples of an entirely different continent, where the peoples are different, culture is hugely different and the history is completely different. There is no common bond to tie to two.

Put another more crude way, if you put 1000 swedes in the centre of Hull tomorrow, you do not have a problem, and probably would not even notice them, or ever know they were here...you put a thousand Eastern European Asylum-seekers here in Hull, everybody knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:08 AM

"There is absolutely no doubt that we, in western europe share the same distinct traits that make us so similar. We share:

Common blood-lines.

Cultural Similarities such as architecture, music, arts, science, progressive science, literature.

We share the same faiths, or straints of the same faith.

Our political institutions are similar.

Our history is entwined with our development as a civillization."

So, Europeans are only Nordic peoples? Where have I heard that before... hmmm.... let me think....

Frankly you have as much a common heritage with Portugal as you do with Sweden. Especially if we use the criteria given above.

Do try and answer my Vienna question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:16 AM

David,
      A sensible question to your goodself if I may, I suspect you know more about this than I do. There was actually 2000 kurdish refugees sent to Hull, almost overnight. They are all young men, where are all the old people, women, kids etc? Did they not make it out of Iraq? Me and 'er indoors' have often wondered.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

So, Europeans are only Nordic peoples? Where have I heard that before... hmmm.... let me think....

Erm..why do you think Europeans are only nordic peoples?

Clearly that is not true.

If you mean have portuguese peoples played much part in the ethnic make-up of the British, then they clearly have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:22 AM

Ah, but you were saying that all Europeans share a common heritage, yet not with the Portuguese, hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Shakey
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

Well ultimately all Europeans, bar a few (basques, Finnish...) share a common language root,I suppose it depends how far you want to go back.
However there's no denying there are also big differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:34 AM

true

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

A sensible question to your goodself if I may, I suspect you know more about this than I do. There was actually 2000 kurdish refugees sent to Hull, almost overnight. They are all young men, where are all the old people, women, kids etc? Did they not make it out of Iraq? Me and 'er indoors' have often wondered.

A good question. To be truthul flamenco, i don't know where the children and women are either.

We all know the human-trafficking industry is big. Why there is a disproportionate number of young men i am not sure.

It is a sad case when women and children are left to survive back home in a war-torn state, and the older men escape to Britain.

Of course, Hull has suffered for this too. We have all seen the line in the Hull Daily Mail, 'Police are looking for a man of Eastern European appearance...", this is simply code word for asylum seekers. If it is racist to tell the truth, then so be it, but women have been subjected to sexual abuse, people have been stabbed and murdered.

Media bias is no suprise, a local Hul journalist once told me it was impossible for the mail to report on asylum seekers in a truthful light. The National Union of Journalists (NUJ) recently started a cmapaign of support for asylum seekers, and my journalist friend informed me that the NUJ has clout. Anyone who does not tow-line, is in for a hard time.

For info on what asylum seekers do recieve, please refer to the 2001 Tenancy agreement, which detailed exactly in LAW what asylum seekers are entitled to.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/asylum_document.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:00 PM

Is my Vienna question a stumper?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:17 PM

Hannam now tell us something we don't know - its called cultural diversity and integration, its happened for years, I dont think you where asked about the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

Put another more crude way, if you put 1000 swedes in the centre of Hull tomorrow, you do not have a problem, and probably would not even notice them, or ever know they were here...you put a thousand Eastern European Asylum-seekers here in Hull, everybody knows.

This is an interesting point, because we here in the US know from experience that it is not true.

When fairly large numbers of immigrants from Sweden were arriving in the US and settling amongst already established settlers from English speaking countries (England, Scotland and Ireland), they were put through the same kind of dehumanizing stereotyping and discrimination as other, less "white" groups of people when newly arrived. It was not at all easy for the Swedish settlers to blend in.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:35 PM

Yingle Bells being the mild side of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM

its called cultural diversity and integration, its happened for years

Is that what passes for diversity nowadays? lol.

So, why do you think Hull only ever recieved all young male asylum seekers?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM

DH, the close italics HTML is:

< plus / plus the letter "i" plus >

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:45 PM

Sorry, i know, i keep getting the "i" before the /. Dammit

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:51 PM

Still no answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:53 PM

There is a preview option that you can use before posting in order to catch that sort of mistake, if you are so inclined.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?

Not sure, i don't know what you are reffering to, at a stretch i suppose someone from vienna could share cultural similiarities with someone from Turkey due to the historical significance of Turkey and Austria with regard to the Ottoman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:24 PM

More specific than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:46 PM

So, why do you think Hull only ever recieved all young male asylum seekers?

If I were to take a stab at this one, my guess would be that it is the young males who are being targeted by the governments of their home countries. This is, of course, assuming that Britain accepts "asylum seekers" on the basis of there being a threat to the asylum seeker's life by the government of his or her home country.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: pdq
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:57 PM

...back CarolC's statement about Swedish immigrants in the US, here are their 'top 10' complaints:

10. They had to work.

9.   They had to learn English.

8.   Hard to find a good coat made from dead seal pups.

7.   Goodwill seldom has "extra large" pants

6.   Poor US coverage of ice racing.

5.   Not enough places to watch glaciers melt.

4.   Americans always misspell 'fijhords'

3.   Can't blame the Norwegians for everything anymore.

2.   Volvo and SAAB parts are sooooo expensive.

1.   No lutfisk served in the school lunch program!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:34 PM

Ya, sure. You betcha...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:26 PM

Oh Dave, to burst the bubble of one of your favorite points, the Norman invasion of Britain didn't work because they were of the same Northern stock, but because they seized the land by force. They might as well have been Turks, Arabs or Slavs.
Your other point of having no history shared doesn't apply to Indians, pakistanis or even Omanis does it?
Iberia is different stocks, France is different stocks, Italy, Sicily, Turkey, North Africa, Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, examples are numerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

More specific than that.

Lololol.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:44 PM

By the way, if ever there was a good opportunity to wilfully alter the name of a thread, this one is it. While I know John answered the original question in the negative, I still groan every time I see this thread title, because it is -- on the surface of -- so bloody bigoted in its framing...

Any of you Bold Jolly Clones want to set that right? Seems to me a lot more important than adding UK to Shambles puir wee thang.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:48 PM

Amos, i said this thread was silly right near the beginning of the thread.

It is a silly question that means if you answer yes, which would be foolish and utterly absurd, you are a racist, and if no, which is the more obvious answer, you are what? Pro-multi-culturalist, pro-diversity?

The question is a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:49 PM

Lot's of laughter from you, DH, but nothing more it seems.
Two of those things influence our lives even today.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:09 PM

It's only a silly thread title if you don't know abour Sir jOhns little ways. As we do, it's just his way of starting a discussion.

Bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 03:57 AM

No, it is just a silly thread designed to lead nowhere, only an idiot could answer yes, and only a perfect liberal could answer no.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:04 AM

Yet you can't keep away from it for LOLling.
Is transparency genetic, or does one have to work at it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:17 AM

At christmas my family sing naff songs, doesn't mean i don't join in. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

I bet you definitely join in when singing "white" Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:59 AM

Lustily, DH - it's got to be snowing though :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 05:22 AM

Hahaha.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 05:35 AM

oh yes, you view everything in black and white. If one says no he's a LIBERAL!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:05 AM

haha, you are getting desperate, first that silly link post, now this, aw, and you were doing so well.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:37 AM

Oh, right. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Man you can't even answer questions, you resort to name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:42 AM

Erm...ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM

On the one hand you claim that immigration Britain worked because all Europeans share the same heritage, customs and race. Then you change it to only Nordic types. You also exhibit a level of historical understanding that barely rises above that of a 5th grade textbook.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:52 AM

name calling? 5th grade textbook understanding? what on earth are you on about, you are buzzing around more than the bee i just squatted. lol

you are acting very frantically.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:56 AM

Take the Normans for one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:00 AM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:04 AM

Try and keep up you two, you've both lost the plot, who is now taking the piss out of who?

Answers on post card

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:05 AM

Yes, i think your right Guest, it is time to call a halt to the bickering agee Le Scaramouche , or will you come back at me now with a biting retort?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:06 AM

You repeatedly state that the normans became integrated into British society because they came from the same Northern European stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:08 AM

Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?

Personally I would love to know the answer to this question. Since DH isn't going to give it to us, would you mind telling us, Le Scaramouche?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:12 AM

Actually Carol i have given my opinion. see post below. Le Scaramouche

ubject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?

Not sure, i don't know what you are reffering to, at a stretch i suppose someone from vienna could share cultural similiarities with someone from Turkey due to the historical significance of Turkey and Austria with regard to the Ottoman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:22 AM

Three things.

A) HISTORY: The Siege(s) of Vienna.
B) CULINARY: Coffee. The first coffee houses in Central Europe were opened up using coffee bags abandoned by the retreating Ottomans.
Croissants come in a round-about way due to the siege of Buda IIRC.
C) CULTURE: Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven were among the musicians influenced by Turkish styles, especially the Mehter bands of the Janissaries, which all European marching bands can trace their genesis to. Mozart in particular was infatuated by Turkish music, but he wrote it in his own idiom.

So we have at least three things that using Hannam logic we can conclude that Vienna and Istanbul share the same culture. Add to that the fact that they have mixed to varying degrees. Following the same line of logic, with a skip and a hop we could connect it to London as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:22 AM

He says there's more to it. I'm interested in what he has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:25 AM

Oops. Crossposted.

Thanks, Le Scaramouche.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:28 AM

So we have at least three things that using Hannam logic we can conclude that Vienna and Istanbul share the same culture.

Erm...what part of my post didn't you understand. lol.



ubject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?

Not sure, i don't know what you are reffering to, at a stretch i suppose someone from vienna could share cultural similiarities with someone from Turkey due to the historical significance of Turkey and Austria with regard to the Ottoman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:41 AM

"Multi-culturalism has failed, the reason i say this is because the immigration, if it can be called that, that you refer to were of european origin, normans, vikings, saxons, etc, were all of same heritage, identity, culture etc. We are one and the same people."

Beginning from that post, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:12 AM

Well if you haven't understood any of my posts, you have replied to enough of them, but if you haven't understood any of them, you should have said you were having difficulty and i would have simplified them for you.

I didn't realise you were struggling, for that i apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:17 AM

Bomber was Huddersfield drug dealer - http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15833478%26method=full%26siteid=50060%26headline=bomber%2dwas%2dhuddersfield%2ddrug%2ddealer-name_page.html

Aug 8 2005

By Anne-Marie Bradley, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner


BRITAIN'S deadliest suicide bomber dealt drugs on the streets of Huddersfield, it was said today.

Former addict Juliet Davidson has revealed how she used to buy heroin and crack cocaine from teenage bomber Jermaine Lindsay in Dalton.

The single mother - who has been free from drugs for three years - said she was shocked to discover her former dealer was at the centre of the London terrorist attacks.

Lindsay was the terrorist who carried a bomb on to a Tube train at Kings Cross on July 7, killing 26 people.

Juliet said: "I was absolutely gobsmacked.

"I could have understood him attacking someone, but not a bomb.

"I never thought he would have killed himself like that."

Juliet, 26, first met Lindsay - known to her as G - five years ago outside a row of shops in Harp Inge, Dalton.

He was just 14 at the time and a student at Rawthorpe High School.

She said: "He used to hang around and when I was going there to score one day he asked me to get my drugs off him.

"I used to get heroin and crack cocaine off him every day for about two years.

"I saw him change a lot in the last year I was scoring.

"When I saw him wearing his Islam outfit I thought what's he up to?

"He was always going on about racism.

"He thought all white people were trash and said he was going to get them all on drugs to kill them off.

"I don't think he was into anything more himself than a bit of cannabis."

Juliet, formerly of Rawthorpe, said Lindsay also became more aggressive as time went on.

She said: "He started getting arrogant and snapping at anything.

"He once badly beat up someone I knew for just a fiver.

"He looked down his nose at everybody.

"I can't understand why people are saying he was a nice person. He wasn't."

Lindsay grew up in Huddersfield and went to Stile Common Infants School at Newsome and Rawthorpe Junior.

Former classmates said he was a great guy before he converted to Islam when he was about 15.

Lindsay married another convert to Islam, Samantha Lewthwaite, after meeting via an internet chatroom.

The pair married in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, where they set up home and had a child.

But they split after a row, just two days before Lindsay met three other suicide bombers - including Mohammed Sidique Khan, of Thornhill Lees, Dewsbury - and travelled to London on his murderous mission.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,robert price
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM

"He thought all white people were trash and said he was going to get them all on drugs to kill them off.

Lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:31 AM

What I'm struggling with is how someone who might be intelligent is in the BNP spouting that nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM

"He thought all white people were trash and said he was going to get them all on drugs to kill them off.

Just illustrates the sick mentality of these terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

What I'm struggling with is how someone who might be intelligent is in the BNP spouting that nonsense.

Seems to me you are just struggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:16 PM

Now who's descended to personal insults because he's run out of things to say?
At least I'm not an activist for a nonsense party run by a dilletante dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:01 AM

Are Americans Rubbish?
Are Christians Rubbish?
Is racism still alive and well in America?
Is the Iraq war a race/religious war waged by American Christians?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:41 AM

Now who's descended to personal insults because he's run out of things to say?
At least I'm not an activist for a nonsense party run by a dilletante dictator.

Oh dear. And after i held out an olive branch too.

Do you wish to call an end to this squabbling or not?

Also, the dictator remark, ever heard of the word 'volunteer'? If so, tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers?

?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:43 AM

Are Americans Rubbish?
Are Christians Rubbish?
Is racism still alive and well in America?
Is the Iraq war a race/religious war waged by American Christians?

In order, No, no, definitely yes, i read only other day about another racist murder of a teenage white american. and the last probably no, more likely oil interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

Oh, that just struggling remark was an olive branch. I must have interpreted it incorrectly.
The dictator bit has gone over your head, unsurprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:16 PM

Also, the dictator remark, ever heard of the word 'volunteer'? If so, tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers?

Can't you answer? lolol. You struggling again?

C'mon, explain how a man be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers, i would love to know?

?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:35 PM

I could be wrong - but were not the Brown Shirts all volunteers, back in the 1930s?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:45 PM

Well what has the brown shirts got to do with the BNP? lolol.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:02 PM

Also, the dictator remark, ever heard of the word 'volunteer'? If so, tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers?

Well?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:06 PM

Who said anything about brown shirts having anything to do with the BNP lol lol? I only answered your question "explain how a man be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers" lol lol... But you made a connection on your own lol lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:10 PM

Well seen as the question was how can the BNP be led by a dictator when it is a party made of volunteers, that is why the BNP was the topic of issue?

You get? or are you struggling too, lol?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:32 PM

Read your own post of 12:15am and tell me where it mentions BNP...
Clutching at straws lol lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:33 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:16 PM

Now who's descended to personal insults because he's run out of things to say?
At least I'm not an activist for a nonsense party run by a dilletante dictator.

Right...one last time...you get?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:36 PM

" tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers?"

So?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:47 PM

He can be if his policies affect anyone besides his volunteers. There are many dictators around the world who have loyal volunteers in their party but who have dictatorial control over many people who are not in their party. Would this be the case if the BNP was in control in Britain? I hope we never find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:50 PM

Oh dear. I expected better, DH, you disappoint me. I'll spell it out then: It is possible for a man to be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers, and the proof of this (i.e. that it is possible) lies in the fact that the leader of the Brown Shirts (who were all volunteers, I believe) was a dictator, recognised so by history.

Must do better. Really, you must.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

Frankly I don't care how many volunteers he has, dictator was about his ambitions, say what you will.
I imagine his ambitions stretch further than the current members of the party.
Rohm didn't force people into the SA, neither did Mussolini, Stalin, Sadam, Assad, Castro or anyone else. They surrounded themselves with people who wanted to take part.
BTW, if %99 are volunteers, what's the remaining percent?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:59 PM

On second thoughts, though, I 'd prefer it if you don't do better.
If you get my drift.
Anyway, life awaits, songs to sing, choruses to join in to... catch you tomorrow, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:04 PM

Now, now, children. Please take your food fight outside - you are soiling the carpet.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

Oh dear. I expected better, DH, you disappoint me. I'll spell it out then: It is possible for a man to be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers, and the proof of this (i.e. that it is possible) lies in the fact that the leader of the Brown Shirts (who were all volunteers, I believe) was a dictator, recognised so by history.

Must do better. Really, you must.

The main flaw in your argument, which i admit is a credible one, is that that particular dictator could not be removed through electoral means, he controlled the party and eventually the nation and at no point was he eligible for election as a leader within his own party.

Nick Griffin was elected, and can be un-elected tomorrow if a leadership bid so wishes. That is the difference, Nick Griffin is the head of a party of 99% volunteers, and those volunteers can walk out anytime they wish, and Nick Griffin can be challenged for the leadership anytime somebody wants to.

That is not a dictator, elgrecko, or Le Scaramouche.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:29 PM

So...to improve the question slightly, Le Scaramouche,

tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers and in a party where he can be challenged and removed if so the wish of the membership?

???????

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:35 PM

Like I said, went clean over your head. If you want me to defend the literal position, I won't. Pretty pointless.
Dictator is a very convenient name to use and Mr Griffin makes it easy.
Satisfied?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,john
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:38 PM

David-waht you diong tonight?
play some music at Brickis, Walton Sreet.

ps=do you liv next door to me?

[my next door eighbour got BNP posters in his window, is he you?

if you dont know were music is tonight, you could ring me=
07759 668 798, withold your number if you like!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers and in a party where he can be challenged and removed if so the wish of the membership?

He can be if he has political power over people who are not members of his party.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:09 PM

If you want me to defend the literal position, I won't.

Just as i thought, can't answer. You say Nick Griffin is a convenient example, but yet you can't say how. Incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:09 PM

Agree Carol to some extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:13 PM

David-waht you diong tonight?
play some music at Brickis, Walton Sreet.

ps=do you liv next door to me?

[my next door eighbour got BNP posters in his window, is he you?

if you dont know were music is tonight, you could ring me=
07759 668 798, withold your number if you like!

Many thanks John. WHat i have done is put your number in my mobile. WHilst i can't make it tonight as i am working and have to complete a project, i will certainly make it to future sessions. In fact i will get my dad along too, he can introduce us.

No, it is not me, i don't have a BNP poster up in my window.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

No, David, I did answer. It's an insult or don't you understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:40 PM

Oh, it might help you understand better if you took dilletante into account.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:43 PM

You still didn't explain the remaining percent, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:59 PM

No Le Scar, you didn't answer. I asked, "tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers and in a party where he can be challenged and removed if so the wish of the membership?"

and you upto now have answered,

Frankly I don't care how many volunteers he has, dictator was about his ambitions, say what you will.

That is not answering the question. As for ambitions, when you consider on the issue of democracy, the manifesto reads,

1. All laws against traditional free speech rights will be repealed, starting with the vague, politicised, and hypocritically-enforced laws pertaining to race and religion, which are virtually never enforced against foreigners attacking the racial and religious groups indigenous to Britain.

2. Guarantee the right of organisations and individuals who espouse unpopular opinions but have not broken any laws (other than illegitimate laws against free speech) to organise and campaign free from interference from or discrimination by, the police, other state institutions, and bodies such as trades unions, employers' organisations or commercial entities.

3. Guarantee the rights of individuals to join, and organise according to their political beliefs in, trades unions and professional bodies.

4. All political parties should be protected by a new law which makes the employment of violence or intimidation for political purposes a serious offence carrying a minimum of two years in prison, or a doubling of the usual sentence for the offence, whichever is the greater.

5. We will disband all government-sponsored attempts to exploit ethnic minority voters by means of such programmes as Operation Black Vote.

6. A ban on postal voting for all except the seriously sick and elderly. No use of electronic or other non-polling booth voting systems, as none will yet command the confidence of the electorate in the way which the traditional ballot box does.

7. Instruct the Electoral Commission to deal as a matter of urgency with the way in which organisations which do not themselves contest elections are at present permitted to denigrate individual candidates or parties, thereby allowing their rivals to circumvent the proper spending limits on election material.

8. Ban the conducting or publishing of opinion polls in the last three weeks of an election campaign, as these can be used to 'stampede' voters and manipulate the democratic process.

9. In order to ensure that vested interests cannot 'buy' political parties, we will legislate to ensure that political parties must organize and function only with such funds as they are able to raise from their own members and supporters. State funding, corporate donations by businesses or pressure groups, and political dues from trades unions will all be outlawed.

10. The rejection of ID cards – the core technique and expression of the repressive Surveillance State.


Hardly the writings of a dictator.

Your 'insult' is simply ridiculous, and i am afraid you are looking silly.

First you said he was a dictator, aside from the fact he can be removed and 99% are volunteers, then you said it was his ambitions that were dictatorial, but the manifesto completely contradicts what you say.

You have not done your homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:00 PM

damn those italics

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:16 PM

Wonder why nobody cared enough to vote for you?
Pretty wrapper though.
#4 is particularly interesting, all things considered.
Is the remain percent conscripted, guns pointed at their heads, mercenaries, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:17 PM

Yeah, I'd love to know about that one percent of non-volunteers, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 05:58 PM

tell me how a man can be a dictator in a party of 99% volunteers and in a party where he can be challenged and removed if so the wish of the membership?

First you said he was a dictator, aside from the fact he can be removed and 99% are volunteers, then you said it was his ambitions that were dictatorial, but the manifesto completely contradicts what you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 06:37 PM

It's the impression one gets. Mind you, he doesn't have the pomposity or swagger of a Mosely. Is shifty and furtive closer the mark?
What of the remaining percent? Are they chained to their laptops?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: jpk
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM

aw hell,don't be racist about it,be an equal oppertonity bigot,
i hate everyone the equaly
have a good day,an god bless anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:13 PM

They're rioting in Africa,
They're starving in Spain.
There's hurricanes in Florida,
And Texas needs rain
The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls.
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles;
Italians hate Yugoslavs,
South Africans hate the Dutch,
And I DON"T LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH!
But we can be tranquil
And "thankfill" and proud,
For man's been endowed
With a mushroom-shaped cloud.
And we know for certain
That some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off,
And we will all be blown away!
They're rioting in Africa,
There's strife in Iran.
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Proud Kurdish refugee
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:22 PM

Hi im a muslim and i think muslims are full of rubish.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Proud Kurdish refugee
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:24 PM

and not just muslim, every body. as you eat the food turnes into rubish. if you dont belive me, look at your shet as you go to toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 08:55 PM

it is rubish. and look who is defending Muslims (Rt Hon Sir jOhn from Hull) from Hull..... Your city has just been identified as the must recist city in Hull By Proffessor Gary Craig from Hull Univercity..

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:11 PM

It's the impression one gets.

Haha, well as long as your been clear about it...lolol.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM

So can anyone shed light on the mysterious one percent of the BNP that don't volunteer?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

LS,

Perhaps those are the ones dragged in by a friend, or maybe they are government infiltrators...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:39 PM

Or maybe the remaining percent is Nick Griffin. I suppose until David Hannam deigns to reply, your guess is as good as mine.

BTW, David. The actions of your party and the speeches of Griffin are worrying, manifesto or no. Talk is cheap after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,BNP. huh
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:33 PM

every body have the right to voice their opinions. just not the BNP because they are just waste of time and space really.
i have heard that HQ of BNP is the mentel hospital. is it true?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:50 PM

DH is coverting mudcatters to BNP voters so fast, it scares the bejeesus outta me!

Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:57 PM

but there are hundreds! DH told us so it must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 04:44 AM

DH gone quiet. He's at some folk festival, no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 05:08 AM

David Hannam what was it like inside prison when you served a prison sentence for inciting racial hatred?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:22 AM

Or maybe the remaining percent is Nick Griffin. I suppose until David Hannam deigns to reply, your guess is as good as mine.

You don't know what a remaining rough percentage is in a political party of volunteers? Tell me you are not serious?

BTW, David. The actions of your party and the speeches of Griffin are worrying, manifesto or no. Talk is cheap after all.

Again, as long as you are specfic and clear. haha. Does that remark mean you agree with sections of the manifesto eh?

but there are hundreds! DH told us so it must be true.

HUNDREDS?!!!! I wish. No i never said hundreds, though i wish it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:26 AM

David Hannam what was it like inside prison when you served a prison sentence for inciting racial hatred?

Awful actually. You wouldn't believe it, but the only friend i made in there was a black lad called Martin. He was in for car theft, but he was a decent lad.

It was horrible, for saying i didn't even produce the stupid leaflet, it was a kick in the guts.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:27 AM

Media coverage

At the time, the horrific racist murder of young Kriss hardly registered on the radar of the mainstream British press with only the main Scottish broadsheets, "The Scotsman" and "The Herald" providing coverage. The BBC even today has not one mention of the murder on its website, and please do not just take our word for it.

Try this and then once again examine your conscience when your TV licence reminder comes through the post.

Search the BBC archives and clicking on "Search" in the top right corner.

Type in "Kriss Donald" (two "s")
Note the number of results and how relevant those results are to the search.
Then type in "Stephen Lawrence" and note the number of results.

Two horrific racist murders, two grieving families, two lives lost in the madness of multicultural Britain, yet two different responses from the BBC, two extreme responses from the blinkered anti-white racists who have no shame yet who control what we see and read in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:33 AM

It's the impression one gets

BTW, David. The actions of your party and the speeches of Griffin are worrying, manifesto or no. Talk is cheap after all.

Your posts are getting less clear? Impression? lol, speeches of griffin? Any in mind? You ever been to a NG speech?

lol, please try to be at least clear about what you are saying. You called him a dictator awhile back, aside from the fact it is a party of majority volunteers, and he can be challenged for leadership and removed?

Really...YOU must do better.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:40 AM

No, I don't know. Pray enlighten me.

Some parts of your manifesto are ok, but the wording is problematic.
The general tone, if you like.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4644453.stm

Oh and David, you said somewhere not to take the word of Gable, cos he was convicted. Do you agree with the old saying about geese and ganders?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:48 AM

What parts of the manifesto are ok?

Gable, lol, yes, the main difference is this. When in court, and you can chase the transcripts to prove me wrong, the Judge concluded by saying,

"i do not believe you have a racist bone in your body".

No, i mocked your source of info as Gable. Hardly unbiased source now is it? A common thief?

What is your opinion on the racist murder of Kriss Donald and disgusting biased news reporting of the BBC, it is sick isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:48 AM

David, would the following be true of your party's goals?

(1) A subject of the state is one who belongs to the
protective union of Great Britain, and who, therefore, has
specific obligations to the Kingdom.
(2) A citizen of the Kingdom is one who is of
British or kindred blood, and who, through his behavior, shows
that he is both desirous and personally fit to serve loyally the
British people and the Kingdom.
(3) The right to citizenship is obtained by the grant of
citizenship papers.
(4) Only the citizen of the Kingdom of Great Britain may enjoy full political
rights in consonance with the provisions of the laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:48 AM

Judge quote in reference to my own case.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:52 AM

From the manifesto, this should answer your question:

11. While accepting the right of law-abiding minorities, in our country because they or their ancestors came here legally, to remain here and to enjoy the full protection of the law against any form of harassment or hostility, we will also seek to emphasise the importance of the prior status of the aboriginal people. This would be a national extension of the 'Sons and Daughters' policy in priority on housing and school places lists which BNP councils seek to implement at local level.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:54 AM

Like any murder, it's sick. Your point?

Was Gable after the family silver or was it something else?

Rejection of ID cards, but are you going to do something of the sort for what you call foreigners, or will you simply deport them. Do your party members know about item #4?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 06:58 AM

No i asked what do you think about BBC Biased news reporting?

Item 4, please specify section?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 07:02 AM

So those four points are true about your party?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 07:04 AM

News is always biased, one way or another.
Item 4 on your manifesto and do you agree with the four points I asked you about?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 07:43 AM

4. All political parties should be protected by a new law which makes the employment of violence or intimidation for political purposes a serious offence carrying a minimum of two years in prison, or a doubling of the usual sentence for the offence, whichever is the greater.

That one?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM

News is always biased, one way or another.

Agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 07:56 AM

Yes, David and do you agree with the points I asked you about?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:28 AM

Any member who has read manifesto knows about section 4 i imagine yes.

I agree with some of the points and some do not go far enough.

1) A subject of the state is one who belongs to the
protective union of Great Britain, and who, therefore, has
specific obligations to the Kingdom.

I agree with this, as it encompasses the fact that both native Britons and ethnic residents both have a full responsibility to the obligations of the law of the land.

(2) A citizen of the Kingdom is one who is of
British or kindred blood, and who, through his behavior, shows
that he is both desirous and personally fit to serve loyally the
British people and the Kingdom.

Well this is simply not true as of present. Also, as it is unrealistic to expect to never have minorities in the UK, it would exclude those minorities from the demand of rights earned and laws abided by in the UK. If we expect the same of native Britons, we expect the same of all who reside in the UK.

What other parts of the manifesto do you like aside from the ID card policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:30 AM

ESTATE YOBS CLAIM TO BE `TERRORISTS

Aug 11 2005

Police pledge to crack downon `childish' gangof thugs

By Alan Lodge


YOUTHS battered an innocent pedestrian with an iron rod in a brutal attack at the Mill Quay estate on the Isle of Dogs.

Shocked residents witnessed the assault at around 7.45pm last Tuesday night (August 2) on the housing estate off Wheat Sheaf, just south of Millwall Dock.

An eyewitness, who lives on the estate, told The Wharf: ``I noticed a group of seven Asian teenagers prowling the estate in a menacing way, and calling themselves `terrorists'.

``From their attitude, it was immediately obvious that trouble was brewing.

``Only minutes later, I witnessed them use an iron rod to assault a pedestrian adjacent to Millwall Dock, followed immediately by an attempted assault on a jogger.

``Both attacks were completely unprovoked, and, in my opinion, racially motivated.''

The witness called the police, who promptly arrived on the scene, and he showed them photographs of the attackers he had taken while the drama unfolded.

However, the police were reluctant to follow the matter up as both victims, along with the gang, had since left the scene. ``I found this surprising, as therewere multiple witnesses and good photographs of the perpetrators, but also very frustrating as the youths in question are regular troublemakers on the estate,'' said the witness.

``While they (the police) were trying to convince me to drop the matter, both victims fortunately returned the scene.

``One of them had a deep red welt diagonally across his back from his hip to his shoulder.

``I understand that the police are currently under a lot of pressure. However, I am nevertheless disappointed with their reluctance to investigate a crime when the perpetrators are so easily identified.

``Small wonder that gangs such as these are able to roam estates such as Mill Quay, openly intimidating residents and causing trouble without any fear of the consequences.''

But police are not taking the attack lightly, particularly in view of the recent heightened state of security around London.

Chief inspector Gary Brown said the gang were being ``childish'' by calling themselves ``terrorists''. He added: ``We seem to be getting a lot of it in the borough.

``In the current climate it's very, very serious and we're jumping on it

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:32 AM

Very little.
Shall I tell you what you've been agreeing with?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:35 AM

BTW, when you say 'as of present' what do you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:42 AM

Very little.
Shall I tell you what you've been agreeing with?

Oh, it is simply before you said there were parts you agreed with.

What? I imagine some sort of ethnic minority citizenship proposal? Labour Government proposal?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:43 AM

So what is the 'little' you agree with, or are you embarrassed to say? lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:51 AM

Very little, parts of free speech, etc, that I agree with anyway. if you think that means I'm for your party or anything like that, you have another think coming.
Now what did you mean by 'as of present'.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM

You like the BNP's section on free speech. Wonderful.

No i don't take that as support for the BNP. I agree with some policies of the SWP, but it doesn't mean i support them.

I believe that whatever peoples political affiliations, one should always respect them.

As of present remark. The below point, i believe as of present, i.e in today's multi-cultural Britain, simply would not stand up. Because it would exclude ethnic minorities from the expectation to respect and obey the law and abide by our customs. This is not a good thing.

To believe that this country will never have ethnic minorities is both unrealistic, and perhaps even undesirable, therefore the BNP has stipulated that such provisions and laws that are equal across the ethnic spectrum be there. In other words, in a BNP government, ethnic minorities would, as many do now, obey the law and respect our customs and culture.

(2) A citizen of the Kingdom is one who is of
British or kindred blood, and who, through his behavior, shows
that he is both desirous and personally fit to serve loyally the
British people and the Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM

What? I imagine some sort of ethnic minority citizenship proposal? Labour Government proposal?

I am interested to know what i was agreeing with though. see my earlier post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 10:16 AM

Yes, I was just waiting for clarification that you provide above. What still worries me is as of present, implies there'll be a change.
Anyway, you might be interested to learn that you agreed with the Nuremberg Laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Fed up
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

The man himself..

Many BNP organisers have racist and criminal pasts

Unite Against Fascism exposes criminal elements in BNP

So why spending so much time in Mudcat these days, David? no one listening to you "outside?"

Other things to do with your life..

1. learn a new skill, take a course

2. Take up tap dancing

3. learn how to knit

4. play a sport

5. immerse yourself in a totally different group of people,

6. find out who you really are, for yourself, not what all the propaganda has made you - do you really exist, or are you just a cog in the wheel of the BNP?

7. take up stamp collecting

8. listen to more music.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 11:39 AM

On BBC News I found 3 page of search results for Kriss Donald. Much less than Lawrence, admittedly, but it's a far cry from NONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 02:00 PM

fed up Guest,

Thank you for your concern regarding my usage of my time.

I work from home, most of the time. During lunch, or during a break in the evening working, i like to go on Mudcat for two reasons, one because i like folk music, etc, and two because i like the exchange of thoughts ideas, though they often be confilcting.

Some on here have really struck a chord on here and made me think, such as Carol, others have not, lol, but i thank you for your interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 02:05 PM

On BBC News I found 3 page of search results for Kriss Donald. Much less than Lawrence, admittedly, but it's a far cry from NONE.

Well it is THREE from NONE!. Why do you think the brutal murder or Stephen Lawrence generates more media interest than the torturous murder of Kriss Donald?

What still worries me is as of present, implies there'll be a change.
Anyway, you might be interested to learn that you agreed with the Nuremberg Laws.

Aha, i see your point. No i meant that the quote would not fit in present day Britain as it would not be inclusive of ethnics in the UK.

WHich one did you agree and disagree with most?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 04:13 AM

Didn't the Stephen Lawrence murder take place years ago?
Next time before you start saying they don't have any pages check it.

The wording of the Laws ought to have set off your alarm bells. Like I said, they are something that might seem alright, but the wording worries me.

Does your party plan to favour what you class as native Britons over minorities?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:41 AM

Didn't the Stephen Lawrence murder take place years ago?
Next time before you start saying they don't have any pages check it.

The wording of the Laws ought to have set off your alarm bells. Like I said, they are something that might seem alright, but the wording worries me.

Does your party plan to favour what you class as native Britons over minorities?

The Stephen Lawrence murder did indeed happen almost ten years ago. Also years gone by was the Murder of Gavin Hopley. Try also doing a news search on poor Gavin, very little appears.

Also, if you look at the respective dates of the Stephen Lawrence news hits, you will see that within a week there was thousands of news reports, and righfully so, and so should the white victims of racist murders be granted the same urgency, investigation and appeal. But that is not the case.

What a ridiculous question, no, we do not intend to favour native Briton's over minorities.We will end positive discrimination, in favour of best man for the job gets the job, regardless of his colour or creed, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM

Then how come you make such a FUSS about being different?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:41 PM

erm...lol. you got that from erm...where...?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:03 PM

"Hull BNP organiser David Hannam, imprisoned for three months in 2000 for distributing leaflets likely to incite racial hatred"

Its really difficult to take you seriously Hannam

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:13 PM

From you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:24 PM

David what is your day job?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:03 AM

Its really difficult to take you seriously Hannam

Your source the BBC? Its really difficult to take you seriously GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:06 AM

From you.

Erm...no.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:08 AM

Didn't the Stephen Lawrence murder take place years ago?
Next time before you start saying they don't have any pages check it.

The wording of the Laws ought to have set off your alarm bells. Like I said, they are something that might seem alright, but the wording worries me.

Does your party plan to favour what you class as native Britons over minorities?

The Stephen Lawrence murder did indeed happen almost ten years ago. Also years gone by was the Murder of Gavin Hopley. Try also doing a news search on poor Gavin, very little appears.

Also, if you look at the respective dates of the Stephen Lawrence news hits, you will see that within a week there was thousands of news reports, and righfully so, and so should the white victims of racist murders be granted the same urgency, investigation and appeal. But that is not the case.

What a ridiculous question, no, we do not intend to favour native Briton's over minorities.We will end positive discrimination, in favour of best man for the job gets the job, regardless of his colour or creed, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 06:09 AM

Source as requested

"Others present included David Hannam, the BNP organiser for Hull. In 2000 he was convicted of producing and distributing an anti-Semitic BNP leaflet during the 1999 European Election."

BBC on BNP

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 06:27 AM

Your source the BBC? Its really difficult to take you seriously GUEST. You use the BBC as a source of what...accurate info?

You are i think dumb perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:41 AM

David what's your day job?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 12:35 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM

Because I wondered who would employ you knowing your political allegiances.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:16 PM

Aha. I see.

Well some BNP members have suffered from discrimination by their employees, and some have even lost their jobs and income for their polical beliefs.

I personally do not believe anyone should be persecuted for their political beliefs.

I myself work for the BNP.

I used to work for a market research company in Hull on the telephones, it was very dull, they knew my political beliefs. I then worked for Tesco's, and i stood for election whilst working for them, and they respected my beliefs too. I have never had any problems as such, but others have not been so lucky. I now work for the BNP.

What do you think? Do you think BNP members should lose their jobs for their political beliefs? I ask this as a genuine question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

I wouldn't single out BNP members. I have issues about anyone actively inciting racial hatred being represented by a Trade Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:57 AM

Well i think that is very fair of you as absolutely NO BNP members who have been expelled from their Trade Unions have ever been involved in inciting racial hatred.

I suppose the question is what is it that consitutes inciting racial hatred. For instance the leaflet that was put out in my name by a complete nutter certainly could be considered as trying to incite hatred, on the other hand, many people are imprisoned for using strongly termed language opposing multi-culturalism.

I personally do not believe in thought-crimes. I believe if someone has an opinion, then it is their right. I believe that if somebody offends me, that is their right, as it is my right to offend them back or do whatever i want or disregard them. I do not believe however that 'offending' people should be a criminal offence.

Away slightly from the thread topic, humans have offended each other since the dawn of man, and will always continue to do so, because that is human behaviour. To begin to imprison people for offending is silly and absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:01 AM

I suspose the question could also be what constitutes offence. It is not only in the form of 'thought.' And that is where it becomes a criminal matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

Agree. If someone actually committs an offence, then that is wholly different from someone holding opinions which the law or the state may consider illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Is this not accurate, then, David?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:42 AM

Like everything, not really no. As i have said before, as you are only one in a long line of people on here that have posted that, to use the BBC as a source is well slightly niave.


Do you think Trade Unions should expel BNP members from their ranks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:48 AM

No, but I think the Holocaust should never be allowed to happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:03 AM

Erm..how do you tie in the holocaust, (presumaby i think you mean the jewish holocaust) with you disagreeing with BNP members expelled from TU?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:09 AM

Isn't 'expelling' the operative word?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:12 AM

Holocaust, with a capital H, means the Jewish one(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:24 AM

Erm..how do you tie in the holocaust, (presumaby i think you mean the jewish holocaust) with you disagreeing with BNP members expelled from TU?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:26 AM

Holocaust, with a capital H, means the Jewish one(s).

No i meant i didn't know which holocaust he was reffering to, the atomic holocaust, the Gulag Holocaust, the Jewish Holocaust. Either way, i can't see how he ties that in with BNP members getting expelled from TU?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:29 AM

Try using the word 'expelled' in a broader context, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:41 AM

So one last time.

Erm..how do you tie in the holocaust, (presumaby i think you mean the jewish holocaust) with you disagreeing with BNP members expelled from TU?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:42 AM

"Like everything, not really no. As i have said before, as you are only one in a long line of people on here that have posted that, to use the BBC as a source is well slightly niave."

What does this answer mean, where you guilty or not, are you saying you did 3 months for not commiting a crime?

It may be you who is "slightly niave" if you think people believe you if you give answers as above "Like everything, not really no."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:48 AM

Oh my god, look, are you going to answer the below question or not?

Erm..how do you tie in the holocaust, (presumaby i think you mean the jewish holocaust) with you disagreeing with BNP members expelled from TU?


R.e My conviction, i have explained this perhaps a dozen times before. Myself accused of anti-semitism, is well, laughable, for reasons personal, and that disgusting leaflet was put out in my name when i was 17 years old. A huge mistake on my part trusting a complete crackpot. Of course people don't make mistakes when they are 17 do they? To sum up, as you seem to know so much about the case, as your source is the ever-truthful BBC, i will quote the judge presiding over the case in his summing up:

"i do not believe that you have a single racist bone in your body". See Transcript Court File Hull.

Now, can you answer the question, or are you unable?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM

Can you not define 'expel'?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:14 AM

I'm giving you hints, David.

Go on. Define expel

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:15 AM

Certainly, expelled from the TU because they were members of the BNP! An enforced exodus from the TU due to their membership of the BNP! Expel, to banish, etc, to remove, to instruct a persons removal.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:16 AM

Erm..how do you tie in the holocaust, (presumaby i think you mean the jewish holocaust) with you disagreeing with BNP members expelled from TU?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:23 AM

Oh, just the banish and remove bit, really

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:08 AM

That's one man's opinion. Mind you, plenty of Jews in the 1930s that thought the troubles were only a passing fad.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM

Still not able to answer for the rather silly point you made...?

Erm..how do you tie in the holocaust, (presumaby i think you mean the jewish holocaust) with you disagreeing with BNP members expelled from TU?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:34 PM

Seems that you and the Jewish people have something in common then, David.
Victimisation, banishment, removal, exodus (lovely word, don't you think..?)

It's written in black & White, David.
Those are your favourite colours for crying out loud

How come you can't see the connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

Pass the tea and empathy, David

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

How is the issue of BNP members expelled from TU's, tied in with your belief that the holocaust should never happen again? Are you saying Jewish people who were gassed is related in some way to BNP members discriminated against?

As for banishment, exodus, etc, why would a post that i made thereafter to your post relate to the above question.

I think you are making a fool of yourself, and you seem to be struggling GUEST.






Do you think Trade Unions should expel BNP members from their ranks?

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Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:48 AM

No, but I think the Holocaust should never be allowed to happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

No, they are not.

But Shatner is more fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:29 PM

Well i waited and waited, and i know three others who waited to see your response Guest to your ridiculous statement. But alas...nothing. lol.

I will presume you are making a fool of yourself somewhere else...? Perhaps the telling the tesco checkout girl that although you will buy their bananas, you don't want another holocaust.

And so ends that chapter.





How is the issue of BNP members expelled from TU's, tied in with your belief that the holocaust should never happen again? Are you saying Jewish people who were gassed is related in some way to BNP members discriminated against?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:01 PM

But we are also waiting for you to reply to Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:22 PM

"Do you think Trade Unions should expel BNP members from their ranks?"

Yes!

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

Aha, at least one honest soul here.

dianavan, do you think BNP members should lose their jobs for holding BNP membership?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:24 PM

Le Scaramouche , get guest to answer my question and i will answer carols question, though i'm not sure what it is, so if you want to look and post it for me please do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

dianavan, not all BNP members act in a way that is unlawful. Freedom of speech is to be considered.( I know david is going to point this out and can't stand the wait).

But should a BNP member act in a way that is racially offensive, then he should lose his job, with no recourse to trade union defence. As should any individual whether acting out of support of a political party or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:42 PM

The problem, is that believe it or not, BNP members are the very last people to be racially offensive in the workplace.

The party has worked very hard to oust the undesirables in the last 6 years, and it has worked, and our reward has been good numbers of elected councillors and one million votes last year and unprecendented membership.

Our members know how we have worked hard to change image, and it is EXTREMELY unlikely for a BNP to be offensive in a workplace.

Arthur Redfearn was sacked from his job as a bus driver because he was democratically elected as a BNP councillor, so why should his family lose their income?

I just don't buy into persecution at all, whatever ones political beliefs. Left, right, centre, whatever a person may believe, it does not warrant dismissal. It is a sad reflection on the fascist labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:41 PM

"How is the issue of BNP members expelled from TU's, tied in with your belief that the holocaust should never happen again? Are you saying Jewish people who were gassed is related in some way to BNP members discriminated against?"

If it's offical that you now believe the Holocaust happened (the ultimate form of banishment, removal, and mass exodus, incidentally), then you should have no problem making the connection between you lot being banished, removed, and exodussed massly)

Should you?

Now answer Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:42 AM

What a ludicrous comparison.

Are you seriously comparing the systematic murder of millions to a modern day political party which is discriminated against via expulsion from jobs? etc.

I'm sorry, but i refuse to compare the murder of 6million or so people, with the expulsion of BNP members from TU's and their employment, and to be honest, i find it very distastful.

The issue of banishment, expelling, exodus, etc, for the millions of jews in the second world war has absolutely no bearing on the issue of BNP members expelled from their jobs.

Your comparison is both an insult to the poor BNP members who have lost their livelihoods, and to the millions who died in the 2nd World War.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:46 AM

Right.

Now answer Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: zelger
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM

Actually though i hate to admit it the comparison is poor in taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: zelger
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:34 AM

I dont agree with much David has said but it aint fair to keep harping on at him bout summat he said he regretted when he was 17 years old. give the kid a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:31 AM

He is being judged on a past action . That seems an awful lot fairer than the judgement his party routinely makes based on someones skin colour. Heat kitchen kitchen heat.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:14 PM

Care to specify where the BNP has judged someone on skin colour? You clearly have not read the manifesto.

BNP Manifesto
In account of that, and also in the understanding that genocide through integration is a threat to all peoples across the world, we also intend to develop a model of 'multi-culturalism' which combines peaceful co-existence with the maintenance of cultural and biological separation. In parts of the world where mass immigration is irreversible, the only thing that can prevent human diversity vanishing into an antheap of rootless coffee-coloured consumerism is the celebration of difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM

Not answering?

BTW, your manifesto strikes just the right note of cant.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 01:45 PM

If he were to say, for instance, "yes... I was at least partially responsible for those leaflets" (even if he was only responsible for having helped distribute them), and if he said he no longer holds whatever beliefs made it possible for him to assist in that kind of incitement to hatred, and he regrets that he ever did, it might be possible to trust that he does not now have a hate agenda.

He has not done this. He has only tried to obfuscate and mislead us into complacency about his agendas by making it look like he had nothing whatever to do with writing or distributing the leaflets. When people lie to me and try to mislead me, I tend to not trust them. I think we are getting the same old product marketed to us in a shiny new package. Our own white supremacist groups here in the US have tried that trick on us a time or two, and most of us don't fall for it any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:15 PM

So the Judge said "i do not believe that you have a single racist bone in your body" and then promptly jailed him for 3 months.

Smoke and mirrors smoke and mirrors smoke and mirrors etc

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:55 PM

Does anyone know this judge? People can make the craziest judgements at time, so doesn't mean a thing to me. Heck, we don't even have the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:04 PM

A link to this thread was posted in one of the Muslim-bashing threads...

http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2926&messages=13#13903

No answer in that thread, and no answer in the Muslim-bashing thread either. Based on this consistant lack of an answer to the question of whether or not David Hannam was cought by the police while he was in the process of distributing those leaflets leads me to the conclusion that he was, in fact, caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets, and that he most probably was involved in writing them as well.

I suspect that anyone who lives in the area in or around Hull could pretty easily find out if the police records show whether or not he was caught by them while in the process of distributing those leaflets. And if he was, we can probably safely assume that pretty much everything he tells us about his attitudes and intentions is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

The silence is deafening

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 06:55 AM

Care to specify where the BNP has judged someone on skin colour?
..
BNP Manifesto
a lot of shite cut out
rootless coffee-coloured consumerism....

Reminds us just a little bit of the grinning piccaninnies evinced by a previous British intellectual?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:34 AM

Sorry, been working busy, don't always have time to come on here you know...hence the deafening silence!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, will have a read through and answer points worth answering, as you all seem to be getting rather excited over nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM

Just answer the question please.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: zelger
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

Le Scaramouche he said he will answer questions let him answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:23 PM

All it takes is yes or no.
Unless he has taken a page from Hacker's book. Ah, yes, I'm glad you asked that question. And why am I glad you asked that question? I'll tell you. It's because it's a very good question and one that people want to know the answer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 04:58 PM

He's had since the 14th of June (more than a month and a half), and three different threads in which to post an answer. And during that time, he has made probably a couple of hundred posts that don't answer the question. He's certainly had enough time and opportunities to answer since June 14, but he has consistantly ignored the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: zelger
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM

Well maybe if he doesn't want to answer the question he either feels guilty or his hiding it.

there is probs some way of finding out anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 03:52 AM

I think The Shambles is correct... oh... sorry.. wrong thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:06 AM

Yes, but I think he will realise that inter gallatic travel uses more fuel than anticipated..oh sorry , wrong universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:08 AM

299 is the new 300

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:08 AM

300!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 04:38 AM

Bugger! I missed the 300!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:27 AM

Yeah, that was me.

I done it just to annoy you

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

The answer is no. The BBC are inaccurate when referring to distribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

That information didn't come from the BBC. What do the police reports say?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

You know, David, it's evasion tactics like the ones you have been using pretty consistantly so far that show us what your true agendas are. It's like having the word "liar" painted across your forehead. It's pretty hard to miss.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?

Yes. I do deny that. The BBC reported wrongly when referring to distribution. If you consider my replies evasive, then that is your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:44 PM

What does the police report say?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:50 PM

I don't know, i have never seen the police report. Well i saw it over 5 years ago but as for wording i ain't got a clue.

Have you taken the google race hate crimes test carolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:51 PM

Media coverage

At the time, the horrific racist murder of young Kriss hardly registered on the radar of the mainstream British press with only the main Scottish broadsheets, "The Scotsman" and "The Herald" providing coverage. The BBC even today has not one mention of the murder on its website, and please do not just take our word for it.

Try this and then once again examine your conscience when your TV licence reminder comes through the post.

Search the BBC archives and clicking on "Search" in the top right corner.

Type in "Kriss Donald" (two "s")
Note the number of results and how relevant those results are to the search.
Then type in "Stephen Lawrence" and note the number of results.

Two horrific racist murders, two grieving families, two lives lost in the madness of multicultural Britain, yet two different responses from the BBC, two extreme responses from the blinkered anti-white racists who have no shame yet who control what we see and read in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM

Were you charged with having been caught in the process of distributing those leaflets, David?

I don't know what the google race hate crimes test is.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

This is getting annoying, and to be fair to you, slightly dumb, again, i'll simply post my answer to your question before. I can only answer so many times you know.

I am not on trial, and do not need to spend my time answering question after question, you asked me to answer the below question and i have.

The google test is the test above your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM
Carol Wrote:
David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?
David Answered:
Yes. I do deny that. The BBC reported wrongly when referring to distribution. If you consider my replies evasive, then that is your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 05:58 PM

You may not be on trial, but your politics do seem to be on trial in the court of public opinion. Your answers to questions about your political past do have an effect on how that all plays out. Being only halfway honest (if that) to questions about your political past, and giving the appearance of withholding information about it, informs those who are deciding what to believe and what not to believe coming from you. I don't think you have been completely forthcoming in your answers to my questions.

Because I don't have all of the relevant information available to me to make an informed decision about what to believe and what not to believe, and because you seem disinclined to help me out in this regard, my tendency will be to disbelieve anything you say unless it can be proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

You may not be on trial, but your politics do seem to be on trial in the court of public opinion. Your answers to questions about your political past do have an effect on how that all plays out. Being only halfway honest (if that) to questions about your political past, and giving the appearance of withholding information about it, informs those who are deciding what to believe and what not to believe coming from you. I don't think you have been completely forthcoming in your answers to my questions.

Because I don't have all of the relevant information available to me to make an informed decision about what to believe and what not to believe, and because you seem disinclined to help me out in this regard, my tendency will be to disbelieve anything you say unless it can be proven otherwise.

You asked me whether or not i was convicted for distributing, and i answered no. You asked me whether or not i was caught distributing, naturally i answered no. Listen Carol, it dont get any clearer than that, so take your rather silly whinings elsewhere, because usually although i respect your posts, as believe it or not, in the past they have challenged me to re-look at my opinions, but here, whatever i say, and no matter how many of your questions i answer, it ain't any good.

So if indeed you don't have all the facts, therefore your tendency is to disbelieve everything i say!!!!!!!!! WHy bother with the questions in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?????????????????

My opinions are not on trial. Multi-culturalism and its murderous genocide of the rich tapestry of races is on trial.

However, i am happy to be challenged. So...have you taken the google test?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:24 PM

I already told you in my 03 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM post... I don't know what the Google test is or how to take it.

You asked me whether or not i was convicted for distributing, and i answered no.

Actually, I did not ask that question, and you did not answer it.

You asked me whether or not i was caught distributing, naturally i answered no.

I did not ask this question, and you did not answer it.

I asked if you were charged with distributing the leaflets that you deny having anything to do with. And I asked whether or not the police reports say that you were caught distributing those leaflets.

You have not answered either of those questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?

Yes.

I asked if you were charged with distributing the leaflets that you deny having anything to do with. And I asked whether or not the police reports say that you were caught distributing those leaflets.

Oh dear, carol, you are making a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

You asked me whether or not i was convicted for distributing, and i answered no.

Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM
Carol Wrote:
David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?
David Answered:
Yes. I do deny that. The BBC reported wrongly when referring to distribution. If you consider my replies evasive, then that is your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

The answer is no. The BBC are inaccurate when referring to distribution.

4 Times i have answered, and yet still you can't comprehend my answer. I know you are not stupid, but this is simply amazing. Give it up woman! lololololol.

So if indeed you don't have all the facts, therefore your tendency is to disbelieve everything i say!!!!!!!!! WHy bother with the questions in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:25 AM

At the time, the horrific racist murder of young Kriss hardly registered on the radar of the mainstream British press with only the main Scottish broadsheets, "The Scotsman" and "The Herald" providing coverage. The BBC even today has not one mention of the murder on its website, and please do not just take our word for it.

BBC Search results.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:48 AM

And another BBC search

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:11 AM

DH
Lets make it nice and simple for you and everyone else.

What where you convicted of?
What where you found guilty of?
What sentence where you given?

There we go answers please then we can all move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: zelger
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:16 AM

CarolC you are a buffoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:00 PM

I think the differences in wording between what I actually asked, and what you have answered are important, David. You many not see those differences, but I suspect that you are perfectly aware of them and are using them to avoid any direct answer to the precise questions I have asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

Oh My God

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:47 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself? (Carol)

You asked me whether or not i was caught distributing, naturally i answered no. (DH)

I did not ask this question, and you did not answer it. (Carol)

Tell me what for you makes the difference here, Carol, so I can better follow the discussion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:54 PM

I want to know specifically what he was charged with and what the police reports have to say about it. So far, David has not addressed these questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:56 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself? (Carol)

You asked me whether or not i was caught distributing, naturally i answered no. (DH)

I did not ask this question, and you did not answer it. (Carol)

Tell me what for you makes the difference here, Carol, so I can better follow the discussion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:04 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself? (Carol)

You asked me whether or not i was caught distributing, naturally i answered no. (DH)

I did not ask this question, and you did not answer it. (Carol)

Tell me what for you makes the difference here, Carol, so I can better follow the discussion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:06 PM

I don't mean the 'charged' questions (I do understand these), I mean the 'caught' questions.

Wolfgang (with computer hicups)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself? (Carol)

You asked me whether or not i was caught distributing, naturally i answered no. (DH)

I did not ask this question, and you did not answer it. (Carol)

Tell me what for you makes the difference here, Carol, so I can better follow the discussion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:20 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?

Yes.

Well i don't know how i could have answered any clearer wolgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:33 PM

What puzzles me most at this moment how an old post of mine can get reposted by my computer after I have written a new post in between.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:45 PM

Carol. I think DH has answered your question.

He was convicted for inciting racial hatred and according to the BBC site he got:

"Three months custody for his part in the production and distribution of a racist and anti-Semitic leaflet during the 1999 European election campaign."

I presume the BBC is accurate in saying the "operation" was one of production and distribution but none of the above means he has to have taken part in any of the distribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:39 PM

Yes, you are correct, Wolfgang. I did ask that question and it was answered.

The ones that haven't been answered are the ones I would like to see an answer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:40 AM

Care to put cut and paste those questions again?

I will humour you here, as you are in this thread becoming more confused and comical by the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:47 AM

Dave I would hazard a wild guess that one of the reasons you use this site, is to enhance your debating skills. All good for the cause eh?

You keep falling at the hurdle by trying to undermine your fellow debater in a rather na na na na na way. Just a pointer.

So, why were you charged with distribution if you 'weren't caught' distributing the racist literature?

I know you have said you 'weren't caught,' but that isn't the same as not having distributed them is it. Have you ever distributed those leaflets?

I know it's early to be picky but a definitive answer would let us move on with the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:11 AM

Guest, this is the first occasion i have become 'nana' towards another fellow mudcatter. The reason for this is the utter comical nature of carols refusal, or blindess, intended or not?? to see my answers to her questions.

You can clearly see i have answered her questions, again and again and again and even again!!!!!!!!!! But still she insists i haven't.

Actually i didn't join to enhance debating skills, but joined because one the BNP was the topic of discussion at one point, so i thought interesting. Other reason is i love folk music.

The problem i have here, is i answer your questions too, and carole will insist i didn't answer them at all. Again and again i have said i didn't distribute them, but to no avail.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: zelger
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:16 AM

carol you are an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:26 AM

First time? Almost don't know what example to start with. Shall we LOL LOL LOL together?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:41 AM

showing your age there scarmouth, lol is not considered derogatory.

I shan't apologize for my age however! lololoolololololololol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:55 AM

No, LOL is a bit of a dig at you. Thought pretty self-explanatory.
BTW, pretty sure you happen to be older.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:09 AM

Yes, you are correct, Wolfgang. I did ask that question and it was answered. (Carol)

It is worse than that, I was wrong. I couldn't believe you had lost track of your own questions and were repeatedly not reading DH's posts carefully. I rather thought it had something to do with the exact wording (like for instance "caught by the police while in the process of distributing" when, perhaps, DH was observed distributing and caught later) and DH was evasive and I just didn't get it.

Of course, DH is evasive and carefully considers what he answers to or not and which way he answers. I regret that the reaction (not only of Carol) to him and the silly procession of "constantly changing" questions makes him look better in this debate than he deserves. Ignoring him would have been better in my eyes than what I have read.

But perhaps his debating skills are not as good as they sometimes look in this particular context, otherwise he could have truthfully answered with a resounding "No" to Carol's question

Were you charged with having been caught in the process of distributing those leaflets, David?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:49 AM

No.
Again, No.


ubject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:34 PM

David, do you deny that you were caught by the police while in the process of distributing those leaflets yourself?

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:52 AM

I shall tell you what happened wolfgang, she asked the question, backed by scarmouth, and i fell silent, or so they intepretated it, in fact i was working away.

I came back apologized, and started to answer the question again and again.

Actually wolfgang, i don't rate my debating skills either. I tell the truth as i see it, but when it comes to convincing others, i agree, i lack that ability.

So carol, how about an apology for not reading my posts correctly and prolonging the death of this debate?? I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:26 AM

Scaramouche, David Humbug. A fine English novel, but alas, written by evil foreigner. Tsk tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:23 AM

Sorry you're all wrong; it was nowt to do with realign and all that god stuff
Ill tell you what happened in London
Four Leeds lads decided to go on the lash down there for the weekend by train. As usual the train was late and the catering car was knackered. So when they got off the train at kings cross they decided to go across the road to the chip shop, for fish, chips a carton of curry and because they were really hungry a spring roll.
This then cost them 7 quid each. The shock of fish and chips drove them to the pub next door, and they were then stung for a further £3.20 per pint (piss).
I can tell you after working in that hole for 8 months or so, shop fitting banks, beauty salons e.c.t.I was suicidal as well

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

"I want to know specifically what he was charged with and what the police reports have to say about it."

Those are the questions I would like to see answered. I am not doing this for the sport of it, Wolfgang, even though that may be your motive more often than not. I actually would like to know the truth of this situation, and I don't really trust David to give it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:07 PM

You have already said no matter what i say you are inclined to disbelieve me, so really carol there is no point.

I was charged with inciting racial hatred, as for what the police reports say, your guess is as good as mine. I can't remember what i ate yesterday, never mind what a report said 5 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:32 PM

Anyone in or near Hull willing to go check out the contents of the police reports of this case and see what they say?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:40 PM

LMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

So if indeed you don't have all the facts, therefore your tendency is to disbelieve everything i say!!!!!!!!! WHy bother with the questions in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?????????????????

Carol why do you continue to make a fool of yourself. I'll honestly say, i have never been particularly HUGELY popular on here, except for a few, but i have had more PM's in the last day or so pointing out your comical posts than ever before. Albeit one still told me i was a W****R. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

I am trying to give you an opportunity to be truthful and forthcoming. Instead of doing that, all you are doing is flinging insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

Including at people unconnected with it. He may have received THOUSANDS of letters about your comical post, but bet they don't hold a candle to the one he sent me. Smacks of desperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM

THOUSANDS? Where did i say that? Try to read my posts more clearly scarmouth.

Opportunity to be truthful eh carol? Give it up. I answered your questions time and time again, and then you said you still would not believe me as you said!

SO how are YOU giving me the opportunity to tell the truth?

Desperation scarmouth? There is only one desperate poster on here. And she continues to make a fool of herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:36 PM

I'd like to know what the police reports have to say, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

Well i hope someone takes up your call to look and locate them, if not just for your own peace of mind eh:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:42 PM

Humbug, it's hilarious when you fail to recognise EXAGGERATION. It can be used as a form of irony or emphasis a point. Cracks me up the way you are so literal about everything, almost like an eight year old.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:46 PM

Seems to me you don't know, or haven't mastered the technique of 'exaggeration' in the written form!

Making words BIGGER doesn't make it exaggeration, it just makes them bigger, or at least it means to really emphasize a point.

if i was your teacher, i would say, TRY HARDER!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche - PM
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

Including at people unconnected with it. He may have received THOUSANDS of letters about your comical post, but bet they don't hold a candle to the one he sent me. Smacks of desperation.

You mean this one below? Yeah scarmouth, it really smacks of desperation :/


Message:
The Muslim thread is a farce. I answered FOUR times and Carol insists i haven't answered.

I know you both were pushing me for an answer, and i answered 4 times, but this is ridiculous! It's just weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:52 PM

Well i suppose i better.

Well CarolC, perhaps we should call a day on this heated argument/debate, etc.

I hope someone takes up your offer to locate the police files relating to my conviction/arrest when i was 17. As i said, if not for your own peace of mind.

Shall we agree to end this? Or shall we spin it out some more? It is time consuming after all, and i bet we both have a lot of work on.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

CAPS was because I don't know HTML so italics are out. If you think that's the exaggeration, you are thicker than I thought. or clutching at straws.
The PM, Humbug, smacks of desperation because you are coming to me, when I have nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:06 PM

then learn dummy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

So this is the face of the BNP, eh, Humbug?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM

We'll see, David.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:13 PM

I'm sure that 100 posts later or so, there will be a PM from David Humbug claiming never to have used personal insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:13 PM

so this is the face of mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM

A post calling me a dummy because I don't know HTML from a man that can't recognise irony or exaggeration, that may be the face of some in Mudcat or it might be that of the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:19 PM

Not my fault you can't grasp the basics of HTML

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:28 PM

I am not doing this for the sport of it, Wolfgang, even though that may be your motive more often than not. (Carol)

Making assumptions again? Nonsense. I just hate it when I see that a person from the far far right looks good in a discussion because someone else plays the fool involuntarily and thus makes ripostes too easy.

BTW, Carol, I just today read your remarks about my English in the 'congratulations to the Palestinians' thread. You're truly a fine teacher. Read that nonsense you have posted here again with care:

Were you charged with having been caught in the process of distributing those leaflets, David?

You try to press two different thoughts in one sentence and the result is complete nonsense.

Having you on one side of a debate even weakens a good case.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:38 PM

No, but you are the one showing your true colours.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM

yes thats right, scarmouth, i call you dummy, and all is revealed. Your like a modern day nostradameus aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

No, Humbug, it's rather the way you treat people when your own ignorance is revealed. You were the one that failed to comprehend, had nothing to do with HTML. What a grotesque mouthpiece the BNP employ.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:50 PM

BTW, you protest your love of folk music, how come you never post anything about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:52 PM

At least I'm willing to acknowlege my mistakes, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Ahmed Johnson
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

Kill all dirty arabs, muslims and related crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Hannam
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:20 PM

very good. typify anti-muslim feeling as murderous, and bingo, job done.

Well done, you are a very good troll!