BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: pdq
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

Once upon a time, somebody said "those who repeat history are doomed to remember it".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

Look what you started Sir jOhn. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM

The USSR tried to impose a monoculture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:59 AM

Istanbul (or Constantinople) was once the most multicultural city in the WORLD and guess what, it worked out just fine.
Our resident BNPer when faced with a short (and incomplete) list of the different sorts that made up his island, without a shared identity, tells me to get an education. Do the BNP have a scholarship programme?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM

Just because people are from the same continent, doesn't mean they share the same customs and beliefs. They did not have the same heritage and identity (whatever that means).

You'll have to think of a better argument than that. You just come across as ignorant.

There is absolutely no doubt that we, in western europe share the same distinct traits that make us so similar. We share:

Common blood-lines.

Cultural Similarities such as architecture, music, arts, science, progressive science, literature.

We share the same faiths, or straints of the same faith.

Our political institutions are similar.

Our history is entwined with our development as a civillization.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:34 PM

Europeans do not share the same heritage and identity.

This is the most ridiculous statement i have ever read

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:42 PM

An Ionian sponge-fisher shares the same identity as a financier from Luxembourg?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:44 PM

If we are to follow your logic, then the Turks have the same identity and heritage as someone from Vienna. If you can't tell me why then you have no idea about European culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM

If we are to follow your logic, then the Turks have the same identity and heritage as someone from Vienna

explain

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

Read some history, Guest. Scaramouche is no doubt alluding to the siege of Vienna by the Ottoman armies. And the fact that Turkish heritage (provenance, culture, language) is down to the Seldjuk Turks, of Mongolian ancestry. While Austrians trace their heritage to the Von Trapp family of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:58 PM

If it's DH, why should I explain? Thought you knew so much about the culture and heritage of Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:16 PM

I also reffer to something apart from the siege of Vienna.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:49 PM

David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

Cultures share a common language, David. In that way they pass down their traditions and beliefs. In fact, those beliefs are imbedded in the language.

Traditional art, music and literature is different in every country of Europe. The English may borrow from other European cultures and vice versa but they are not the same culture nor do they share a common history. Speaking of 'borrowing', most of our science and math was borrowed from Muslim cultures.

Where do you think the cradle of modern civilization might be?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Shakey
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

most of our science and math was borrowed from Muslim cultures.

Ugh?

Some, fairly early science comes from muslim countries, plenty actually pre-date Islam. Using the word most is simply ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 11:10 PM

Here's a nice story...

New York City cabbie returns forgotten jewelry to Montreal businessman

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,Shooosh
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:11 AM

El Greko is rubbish and big 'ead an all.
True.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM

Correction - Most of our early scientific and mathematical concepts were borrowed from the Arabic centers of learning.

Don't forget that included parts of southern France and most of the Iberian penninsula long after the adoption of Islam. Thats when southern Europe was truly multicultural and ideas were shared.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 03:45 AM

How do you think most of the classical texts were preserved?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:44 AM

El Greko, are you sure that the Seldjuk (Seljuk?)Turks were from Mongolia? My understanding is that all Turkish speaking peoples were/are descended from a separate group of Central Asians unrelated to Mongolians (?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:59 AM

From the general region. Things were pretty fluid. The Seldjuks come from the Oghuz Turks, who aren't Mongols, but related.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:20 AM

A very good story, Carol.

Its good to know that the American spirit is alive and well in New York city!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 07:48 AM

OK, scrap the "Mongolian ancestry" and replace with "related to...". As Scaramouche says, they came from the same region, and are related. This shows in the structure, especially syntax, of the Turkish language, which has many similarities to Hungarian and Finnish (both those countries have had heavy influx from the same general region).

Scaramouche beats me in history, by the sound of it - I always hated it at school, and my interest is comparatively recent. But the general gist is there (thanks, S).

Now, Guest DB, your point was...?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:13 AM

Lovely the way DH expects everyone to answer his questions, but I've asked three which he hasn't bothered to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:48 AM

Cut him some slack - he's a politician

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:51 AM

People elect that man to govern???????????? You folks are in trouble. Looks like the US doesn't have sole provenance on electing bigots and fools.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:55 AM

Sad to say you're right (hangs head in shame)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:01 AM

You're right, El Greko. Nearly forgot he was a Black Short.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:53 AM

Lovely the way DH expects everyone to answer his questions, but I've asked three which he hasn't bothered to answer.

Sorry, i try to answer as many questions, or give my opinion when i can, but i do lose some, i am also answering a lot of PM's.

What was the question?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:44 AM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?
2) Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.
3) David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:17 AM

BTW, can guests get PMs?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:36 PM

Dear El Greko - I was just being pedantic (can't help it)- but, then, "the Devil is in the details" isn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: DavidHannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:37 PM

Not sure, i know members can.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:29 PM

What of questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM

No worries, Guest, as a prize pedant myself I cannot cast any stones...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

1) Using your logic, why would a Turk share the same heritage and identity as someone from Vienna?
2) Surely a Sicilian has as much (if not more) in common with a Libyan as he does with a Swede.
3) David Hannam, you claim to share a common heritage with the Portuguese.
I'm sure you do (just as they share it with others, no man lives in a continental vacuum), but when was the last time you read Camoens?

I do not share a common heritage with the portuguese, lol. You are reffering here to geographical placement only.

When you consider Britain has seen invasions from the Normans, Vikings, Germans etc, these are all of northern european stock. This is the difference.

However, there is a huge difference between assimiliating peoples of a very similar stock, culture, etc, than assimiliating peoples of an entirely different continent, where the peoples are different, culture is hugely different and the history is completely different. There is no common bond to tie to two.

Put another more crude way, if you put 1000 swedes in the centre of Hull tomorrow, you do not have a problem, and probably would not even notice them, or ever know they were here...you put a thousand Eastern European Asylum-seekers here in Hull, everybody knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:08 AM

"There is absolutely no doubt that we, in western europe share the same distinct traits that make us so similar. We share:

Common blood-lines.

Cultural Similarities such as architecture, music, arts, science, progressive science, literature.

We share the same faiths, or straints of the same faith.

Our political institutions are similar.

Our history is entwined with our development as a civillization."

So, Europeans are only Nordic peoples? Where have I heard that before... hmmm.... let me think....

Frankly you have as much a common heritage with Portugal as you do with Sweden. Especially if we use the criteria given above.

Do try and answer my Vienna question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:16 AM

David,
      A sensible question to your goodself if I may, I suspect you know more about this than I do. There was actually 2000 kurdish refugees sent to Hull, almost overnight. They are all young men, where are all the old people, women, kids etc? Did they not make it out of Iraq? Me and 'er indoors' have often wondered.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

So, Europeans are only Nordic peoples? Where have I heard that before... hmmm.... let me think....

Erm..why do you think Europeans are only nordic peoples?

Clearly that is not true.

If you mean have portuguese peoples played much part in the ethnic make-up of the British, then they clearly have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:22 AM

Ah, but you were saying that all Europeans share a common heritage, yet not with the Portuguese, hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Shakey
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

Well ultimately all Europeans, bar a few (basques, Finnish...) share a common language root,I suppose it depends how far you want to go back.
However there's no denying there are also big differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:34 AM

true

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

A sensible question to your goodself if I may, I suspect you know more about this than I do. There was actually 2000 kurdish refugees sent to Hull, almost overnight. They are all young men, where are all the old people, women, kids etc? Did they not make it out of Iraq? Me and 'er indoors' have often wondered.

A good question. To be truthul flamenco, i don't know where the children and women are either.

We all know the human-trafficking industry is big. Why there is a disproportionate number of young men i am not sure.

It is a sad case when women and children are left to survive back home in a war-torn state, and the older men escape to Britain.

Of course, Hull has suffered for this too. We have all seen the line in the Hull Daily Mail, 'Police are looking for a man of Eastern European appearance...", this is simply code word for asylum seekers. If it is racist to tell the truth, then so be it, but women have been subjected to sexual abuse, people have been stabbed and murdered.

Media bias is no suprise, a local Hul journalist once told me it was impossible for the mail to report on asylum seekers in a truthful light. The National Union of Journalists (NUJ) recently started a cmapaign of support for asylum seekers, and my journalist friend informed me that the NUJ has clout. Anyone who does not tow-line, is in for a hard time.

For info on what asylum seekers do recieve, please refer to the 2001 Tenancy agreement, which detailed exactly in LAW what asylum seekers are entitled to.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/asylum_document.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:00 PM

Is my Vienna question a stumper?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:17 PM

Hannam now tell us something we don't know - its called cultural diversity and integration, its happened for years, I dont think you where asked about the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

Put another more crude way, if you put 1000 swedes in the centre of Hull tomorrow, you do not have a problem, and probably would not even notice them, or ever know they were here...you put a thousand Eastern European Asylum-seekers here in Hull, everybody knows.

This is an interesting point, because we here in the US know from experience that it is not true.

When fairly large numbers of immigrants from Sweden were arriving in the US and settling amongst already established settlers from English speaking countries (England, Scotland and Ireland), they were put through the same kind of dehumanizing stereotyping and discrimination as other, less "white" groups of people when newly arrived. It was not at all easy for the Swedish settlers to blend in.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:35 PM

Yingle Bells being the mild side of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:02 PM

its called cultural diversity and integration, its happened for years

Is that what passes for diversity nowadays? lol.

So, why do you think Hull only ever recieved all young male asylum seekers?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Muslims Rubbish?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM

DH, the close italics HTML is:

< plus / plus the letter "i" plus >