BS: Was Thatcher right?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:39 AM

A group of Irish-American politicians has blocked the US Congress from awarding a congressional medal to former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher. Illinois Republican congressman Mark Kirk admitted earlier this month that plans to award Mrs Thatcher the Congressional Medal of Honour had to be abandoned after Massachusetts Democratic congressman Barney Frank said he would do everything he could to stop it because of the Irish community's "very legitimate and strong" reaction to Mrs Thatcher.

He was joined by a group of congressmen from Irish districts, including Joe Crowley of New York, who said that it would be "just plain wrong" to give Congress's highest award to Mrs Thatcher on the 25th anniversary year of the IRA hunger strikes. "Many people in the British government who came after her did great work to end the conflict, but she certainly didn't," he said.

Mr Frank said there was "absolutely no way" that Republicans could obtain the required two-thirds vote required to allow Congress to give Mrs Thatcher the medal of honour, also known as the congressional gold medal. Mr Frank is the most senior Democrat on the Financial Services Committee, which makes a final approval on congressional medal of honour candidates after they are nominated by two-thirds of the members of Congress. "I told the Republican members that I would use the full time allotted to debate the medal and that I would call a full roll-call before the vote would be allowed to go through.

I don't think anyone had the stomach for it, so they've dropped it," he said. Mr Frank said that he also opposed Mrs Thatcher's stand on gay issues when she was in power. "I don't think we should be giving out medals to people just because they were friends of Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:30 PM

WE still have Management V Union problems look at the B.A contracted out stance and walk out "un official strike" companies still trying to do things on the cheap instaed of keeping things in house and properly monitored, simply perpetuating low wages to a section of society with little clout except via a trade union

So what does legislation say ~ sack the workers (700) who are at the end of their tether, leading to all out shut down, via sympathy strikes

What does this tell you B.A. ~~ no no prizes for guessing, Contracting out leads to company bosses wanting to make the extra buck at the expense of those doing the menial work for nothing (a pittance)

End result no control and a business which stops and loses more than value of the contract

Tourists stranded bad publicity and bad feeling all round

It's your own fault BA for following ridiculous mangament ideas to reduce costs

Thatcher's ideas?

God help us too clever by half

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for the comment Robo...and try to keep up with the thinking,

I've seen cases as severe as Shakey completely rehabilitated by that course of treatment.

Seriously, you made some excellent points in your original post and although we often disagree, I admire your open minded stance on most subjects.

Shakey...You're correct about my opinion of Blair, the decision to commit troops to Iraq and the methods used to "sell" the war to the British public and parliament was unforgivable.
He is not only a glory hunting egomaniac, but also a short sighted fool.
On both counts he is unfit to hold the office of prime minister.

This thread was supposed to illustrate how we have lost our sense of involvement with others, and lost any sense of collective responsibility for the actions of our government.

In my opinion this can be laid at the door of those who inflicted the "New Labour Project" upon us.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Shakey
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:12 PM

Everybody knows THAT old song

Well, there goes that razor sharp mind again, destroying my argument with just a few well chosen words.

The lunatic left have always been against everything, just what are you actually in favour of Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

1 Work is needed for our youngsters to do, not all are academically
minded and need alternative work.
When I left school in mid 1960s I could have my pick of jobs
2 Education in schools is not equiping the 16 year olds for
work; very many have a poor grasp of English and Numeracy
basic times tables addition and division are not grasped and
learnt properly if at all up to 16 ~ we had to!!
3 IT is fortunately popular, but many are not yet being given the
opportunity at secondary school (up to 16) due to lack of funding
4 Investment for pensions is a very sore point ~ I do not believe
that Stock Exchange investment underpinning any investment is   
appropriate, look at Endowment policy scandal, the world slump in
2000 has not yet recovered (no good to me my pension has eclipsed)
5 The investment in housing due to the lack of certainty in Stock
Exchange shares has produced inflated housing prices leading to
mortgages that will never be paid off and repossessions ~
youngsters will not be able to afford to buy
6 New thinking whereby reasonable gauranteed rates accrue to
investments for everyone are needed ~ Governments which continue to renage on past promises will always exist, hopefully now they have learnt from their past experiences, but so too have we investors. It will take many years for confidence to return to the UK for the more risky investment opportunities. Spend your money now because you cannot trust government nor any financial advisor may be 'best advice'
make your own mind up on that one!! I would not advise anyone to save for a life time knowing that the value will be worthless

And no I do not know the answer, but do I trust anyone with my money

I DO NOT

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:08 PM

akenaton, on your post of 08 Aug 05 that was a good answer and you've made me think, but I'll try to forgive you!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:58 AM

Everybody knows THAT old song

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Shakey
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:29 AM

Your examples are meaningless except when studied in detail.

I didn't realise I was dealing with such a razor sharp mind. I was tempted to show just how much of a simpleton you really are but you do that much better than I ever could. You're not by any chance a member of the SWP are you? Or maybe the Respect party.

In every post, in every thread, you seek to have a go at Blair, why don't you just start a thread with the subject "Blair is a tosser" and be done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:48 AM

Shakibus.... As I cant be arsed going through your whole pedantic list, I'll aswer them all in one word SPIN!!   Your examples are meaningless except when studied in detail.

A typical case of facts being fixed to sit the agenda.

As an example, you cite winter payments to pensioners as something to be proud of, whereas, a true government of the people would make sure that its senior citizens received a pension that would ensure some degree of comfort in old age, rather than the pittance they receive at present.

Of course , with a bit of luck ,most will be too demented or to proud to fill in the forms for their "extras".

Go and hug you hero Blair, he loves tories masquerading as socialists.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:52 AM

Thatcher and Blair and Bush are, of course, only the tools of an economic system which is profoundly flawed. It is a system that believes that resources are infinite and can be exploited infinitely - and resolutely ignores any evidence to the contrary. Well, I've got a sneaking suspicion that they (and us!) are in for a rude awakening. I keep reading snatches in the press and on the Web which suggests that oil production has peaked and will soon run out (petrol at 90p a litre - any connection, I wonder?). Because the whole 'house-of-cards' is based on an infinite supply of oil it is likely to soon come crashing down around our ears.
Thatcher could have been 'wrong' because she really did believe in the 'infinite resources' myth. On the other hand Bush and Blair could be'right'because they've taken the blinkers off and seen this coming - grabbing what's left of, and keeping control of, the world's remaining oil stocks is the only credible reason for invading Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:58 AM

To ake and Shakey, I guess I'm a dinosaur at heart and I'm DEFINATELY a luddite. Never mind eh.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Shakey
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:52 AM

Eric writes
Tory policy summed up......... the working classes should work harder for less pay to make more money for someone else in the national interest.


Well eric you know as well as I that the tory party have never, willingly, done anything for the working people. It's no big secret. My point is that the working people looked to the unions and the Labour party to represent and protect them, and you know what, they were betrayed. The lunatic left wing have never been interested in working people and they're still not. Ake thinks we've all dumbed down, on the contrary we've wisened up; by getting rid of the cranks Labour has gained the trust of the majority of people and institutions and been able to produce real results. We stand accused of pragmatism by ake, LOL .

1. Lowest inflation since the 60s
2. Lowest mortgage rates for 40 years
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage
4. Record police numbers in England and Wales
5. Cut overall crime by 30 per cent
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools
7. Best-ever primary school results
8. Funding for every pupil in England to double (since 1997) by 2007-08
9. Lowest unemployment for 29 years
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest counties
11. 78,700 more nurses
12. 27,400 more doctors
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament
15. Devolved power to Welsh Assembly
16. Banned anti-personnel mines
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice at any time
18. New Deal - helped over a million people into work
19. Local government funding has increased by a third in real terms
20. Equalised the age of consent for gay men
21. Free entry to all national museums and galleries
22. Overseas aid budget more than doubled
23. Restored city-wide government to London
24. Child benefit up 25 per cent since 1997
25. Created Sure Start to help children from low income households
26. Introduced the Disability Rights Commission
27. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & extra £100 for over-80s
28. The biggest rolling stock replacement programme ever seen on our railways
29. Negotiated the historic Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland
30. Over 28,000 more teachers in England schools
31. Implemented the Freedom of Information Act
32. All workers now have a right to 4 weeks� paid holiday
33. Record rises in the state pension
34. 700,000 children lifted out of relative poverty
35. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents
36. Banned handguns
37. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent
38. Free nursery places for three and four-year-olds in England, Scotland and Wales
39. Free fruit for all four to six-year-olds at school
40. Free school milk for five, six and seven-year-olds in Wales
41. Record police numbers in Scotland
42. Implemented the Human Rights Act
43. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since the industrial revolution
44. Free TV licences for over-75s
45. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals
46. Halved maximum waiting times for NHS operations
47. Free local bus travel for the over-60s and the disabled in Wales and Scotland
48. Record number of students in higher education
49. Extended the Race Relations Act so that all public bodies and functions now have a duty to promote race equality
50. Five, six and seven-year-olds in class sizes of 30 or less

Oh, and somebody please give ake a hug. The poor man is obviously deperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 05:39 AM

Eric...As Hawk says the old labels are becoming redundant.

We should be thinking beyond party politics. We now have a situation where a supposed "labour" government are implimenting policies that a "conservative" administration would never have attempted.

Rhetoric, and distotion by Blair, carried the centre and many of the left, supported by the whole of the forces of traditional conservatism, into the Iraq shambles.
Had the Conservatives been in power, I firmly believe this country would not have troops in Iraq today, and I say that as someone who has never voted conservative.
The wholesale privatisation of public services and the introducionof markets forces as a philosophy, if attempted under a conservative govt today, would never get on the statute book.

We are now almost in the same situation as the Americans, with an increasingly "dumbed down" electorate fighting over two parties which are basically the same.

As the 16th century rebel priest Thomasso Campanella said.

" The people" is a beast of muddy brain, who wages war for its chains rather than be free".....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:42 PM

Tory policy summed up......... the working classes should work harder for less pay to make more money for someone else in the national interest.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM

Roight then!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Ridley de Vere Hayes-Chang
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM

... but not for us, of course....

Oh that's good!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Chang de Vere Ridley-Hates
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

For some, my boy.

For some.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Ridley de Vere Hayes-Chang
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:12 PM

Are you saying:

Wot Comes Around, Goes Around, sir?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Chang de Vere Ridley-Hayes
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:09 PM

The Unions killing British Industry?

Don't make me larf...

People prepared to work for 2 dollars a week in countries devoted to the Thatcher ethic, is wots killing British Industry, gentlemen.

Now....

Who's prepared to take a pay cut, for the common good, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:37 AM

Political parties are the enemies of humanity. They mostly start out with high ideals, but rapidly turn into self-serving, self-perpetuating power blocs with no scruples whatsoever. (like labour unions) It is a bad idea to divide a public into opposing teams to fight against each other! A very bad idea. And that is what political parties do. They work with the principle "divide and conquer". They practice divisiveness, character assassination, false propaganda, and manipulation. They appeal to people's worst instincts in their search for power. They are a curse. We don't need them. We need candidates, and elections, but we DON'T need political parties. We could appoint qualified people at random to political positions and probably get better results in good government, and at far less cost and trouble!

Someday people will look back on our present political parties as they now look back on the once "divine right of kings". They will see it as all having been a huge, giant delusion that stood in the way of peace, equality, prosperity and brotherhood.

Thatcher was part of that huge, giant delusion...but I'll say this: she was effective. (mostly in the wrong direction)

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Shakey
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:25 AM

Thatcher may well have a paranoid hatred of working class people, who knows. I'm just glad she's gone. However working class people in the 70s and 80s were no better served by corrupt and incompetant unions and a spineless out of control labour party. As I said above, it was the UDM that defeated the miners not Thatcher. I live near the Notts coalfields, I collected money for the miners even though I always believed that Scargill was a lunatic. Kinnock, Smith & Blair brought realism to the labour party and have crushed the idiotic left wing fanatics that were once so vocal. I see from this board that there are a few left but they're no more than a bad joke these days.

Ramble on comrades, meanwhile real people will get the job done.

Shakey

Still proud to carry the card.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:15 AM

And sapper82 why do you think there are NO conservative folk songs ?except the ones about the ' unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable '

Good music comes out of struggles and hard times caused by the rich and greedy opressing the workers, Thatchers tory party was no different, it still isn't.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM

And quit that ' Lady Thatcher ' shit, she is an old harridan with a paranoid hatred of working class people.

And sapper82 has at last admitted his true colours, if he stops here long enough he we find out how small a minority he is in.

eric THE RED

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Cho
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:33 AM

I can't remember if it was Hazlitt who said:
"The Tory party takes nothing from the rich and gives it to the poor"

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: sapper82
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:58 AM

eric the red
If I am a " Thatcher and tory and capitalist apologist" Can I take it that you are an apologist for the brand of Trade Unionism that came so close to pushing this country into collapse in the '70s?
Are you an apologist for the '77/'79 Firemen's strike? Are you an apologist for the Hospital Porters dispute which saw patients being turned away from casualty departments by pickets because they were not ill enough and saw deliveries of heating oil being blocked by the same porters?
Are you an apologist for the street cleaners dispute that saw rubbish piled so high in the streets of Glasgow that it became a public health hazzard?
Or perhaps you are an apologist for the Grave Diggers dispute that saw bodies being stored in deep freeze lorries because they could not be burried?
As a result of those excesses, I went from being a Labour supporter of the late '60s and early '70s to being conservative supporter bvy the mid-'80s and a card carrying member of the Conservative Party by the late '90s.
I have no need to appologise for anyone. What Lady Thatcher did was largely in response to the gross excesses of union power that had built up since WW2.


Richard Bridge;
As you have obviosly not read the text of the Woman's Own interview in which she made that statement, and for which I provided a link in my posting of the 5th of August, I again provide the link here; "There is no such thing as Society" Interview
Please read it. You may also wish to read my comments from the 5th of August.
One of your phrases "it is one of the functions of "society", through the political and fiscal system" sums up exactly why we are now seeing a breakdown in that Society. It is that self same political and fiscal system that has done so much to erode the sense of personal or collective responsibility that acts as a glue to hold our society together.
As Lady Thatcher actually said in that interview, Society is made up of individual men, women and children. How well it works depends on how willing people are to take PERSONAL responsibility for themselves, their families and how willing they are to assist those less fortunate than themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:42 PM

Robomatic...The question "was Thatcher right?", referred to her assertion that "there is no such thing as society"

I am haunted by the words of the lady on the bus, who asked for assistance to help the dying youth.

"Most of them just averted their eyes" she said.
We all think this was cowardly and disgraceful conduct, but
I see an analogy with public perception of politics in the UK.

It seems that our government can do as it wishes without censure.
I'm sorry to keep harping on about Iraq, but it really has been a blunder of gigantic proportions, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents, many of them children. It has made the lives of ordinary Iraqis worse than when under the Saddam regime. The much vaunted democratic elections have proved to be a sham, and a vehicle to deliver an Islamic republic.

Women are actually going to have fewer rights than when under Saddam , whos regime was secular.
There is also the matter of American and British young men being slaughtered daily to no good purpose.

In short the whole enterprise has been a disaster, and instead of calling to account the man personally responsible for our envolvment.....Mr Blair, the British public "avert their eyes" and elect him for a third term.

When his actions bring suicide bombers onto the London streets....as we warned it would , the British public "avert their eyes" and say it would have happened anyway.

The culture of individualism that Thatcher promoted and which has been continued and "improved" by Blair,means that we are unable or unwilling to take collective responsibility for even the vilest of crimes committed by our leaders....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:43 PM

There was an interesting documentary on the economy shown in the States recently, "Commanding Heights". It compared economic philosophies and it seemed to cast Ms. Thatcher in a good light, but I'm not sure if that's what is meant by the initiating question of "Was She Right?"

Trade Unions or Trades Unions are a good thing when they protect workers' rights and a bad thing when they institute featherbedding and luddite policies and result in less open competition.

Governments are a good thing when they provide health and environmental standards and good order, and a bad thing when they stifle free expression and the aspirations of private enterprise, and protect the entrenched power and wealth of the powerful and wealthy out of proportion to the protection of anyone else.

Society is a good thing when it promotes standards of taste, decency, and humanitarian behavior, and a bad thing when it promotes class interests, crass interests, and any single religion.

So, not knowing how Thatcher stacks up, I dunno if I can answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 11:24 PM

A milder but no less evil version of all the little runts who have throughout history cause misery and suffering to the world so that they could be famous for a while, so that they could be feared for a while, so that they could wallow in the increased pain and suffering of the old, of the weak, of the poor and of the rest of us.

Notice none of them, Napoleon - Hitler - Stalin - Thatcher - ( and today Cheney, Rumsfeldt & Bush, or the three Uhh-monkies )were more than a couple of inches over 5 feet tall. Talk about a chip on yer shoulder gone awry!

Also notice that the world would have survived without em just as well and better than with!

So for example, Thatcher could have done much to help and nourish native British Industries, instead she and her Paki chums were busy on the 'short sell' scam whenever and wherever they could get it on!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:34 PM

Thatcher was of course wrong on most things.

1.    There is such a thing as society - the collective will - and it is one of the functions of "society", through the political and fiscal system, to provide for those less privileged, and to arrange to fund such provision by those proprotionatley able to fund it. Otherwise all you have is the law of the jungle (or of the Hell Fire Club viz "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law").

2.    Although she did not need to declare war to use military force within the boundaries of the Falklands against an invader, it was unlawful (without first declaring war) to use such force outside those boundaries.

Scargill was right about most things - where he failed was that he allowed his enemy to choose the timing and terms of battle.   The union/capitalism problem of the Wilson and Heath years lay in the fact that both leaders of capital had the power to extract money from enterprise to the detriment of labour and the leaders of labour had the power to coerce the leaders of capital to provide for labour. What was of course necessary was to curb the power of management to pay excessive salaries to management and excessive dividends to shareholders (and excessive interst to loan funders eg banks). In stead Thatcher stage managed a conflict with Scargill at a time when coal stocks had never been higher (and she had arranged for them to be stockpiled). From this power base, with the aid of legislation intended to emasculate unions, and without putting any restrictions on teh power of capital and management, she sought to reduce the working man (and indeed workers by brain as well as hand) to reliance on capital.

This, as will be seen, is adverse to the benefit of soceity.

The woman was the enemy of the people and of civilisation. I wish her much suffering. I wish her as much suffering as she caused others.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:08 AM

She paid that twat McGregor millions to close all the pits, then the cheeky bastard had the nerve to apply for a concessionary pensioners ticket for Grantown On Spey Angling Club.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:20 AM

Nor the miners' wives!!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:19 AM

She would not have dared to have led from the front against the miners!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:52 AM

Perhaps it would be a good idea to return to the mediaeval practice of the King riding to war at the head of his army, and we might see a lot less agression.

IMHO, of the three under discussion, the only one that would have done so was Thatcher. She was the one with the balls to have gone ashore with the troops in the Falklands.

Does anyone imagine that Bush or Blair would have started the invasion of Iraq, if they had to lead from the front? Dream on.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 01:46 AM

Threads like this seem to draw the Thatcher and tory and capitalist apologists out, like sapper82 and the rest.

Incidently I was a trade unionist most of my working life, the last ten years as an activist and an official, but fighting for other peoples rights and defending the less well able against a management who just regarded people as resources, has gained me personally nothing but unemployment and unemployability.

I'm not bitter about trade unions but Thatcher and her monetarist cronies can all burn in hell for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Halyburton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: R. Padgett
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:24 PM

Sapper the Guest above has posted a number of times his opinion re Iraq War and is inciting hatred against all and sundry, he is a nasty piece of work who wont put his name to his opinions

He changes his stance at will

All out war against the IRA? you have got to be joking that's how to perpetuate conflict!

Trade Unions have not killed off British industry

Many factors have contributed to the demise of the industrial base.

We do not expect workers to work under slave terms in this country and uk governments have passed laws to protect workers rights

Such laws would not have been passed under the uncaring, out of touch Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: sapper82
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

Wanker = Anyone who disagrees with Eric?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:17 PM

Eric..I'm with you in spirit, but the anonymous wanker has made the argument that the right always make,and its correct from their point of view.

Its also the argument that gave Thatcher popularity with the centre.
Pragmatism...... they see the world as it is not as we would like it to be, but only in an economic sense and the strategy is always short term. Humanity is seen as a collection of individuals ,there to exploit or be exploited. The notion of a common bond between peoples, is anathma to them. They are safe and secure in the knowledge that power is in their hands through our amazing economic system and they know might will always prevail.

But as Blair says, the rules of the game are changing, though not in the way he thinks. The worm has at last turned, in the shape of fundamentalism, and the strong are no longer safe.

This is what worries the right, the weak for once have the means to bring the fortresses of power tumbling not by four bombs planted by four crazy young men, but by attacking the economy and public confidence.   There is no defense, the agressive posture of Blair and Bush is simply panic and will make matters much worse.

Only by disengaging from the Middle East completely and stopping the manipulation of other countries for our interests can we expect a period of peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:55 AM

Has anyone ever seen G W Bush and Alfred E Newman in the same room ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

Hey, folks, live under G. Bush for a while and Thatcher looks pretty darn good!

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:46 AM

I was no fan of Thatcher, but as Ringer said the full quotation was about who pays for things or solves problems and gives a very different flavour to the usual soundbite: And, you know, there is no such thing as society [to pick up the costs]. There are individual men and women, and there are families.

Of course, exactly the same could be said for other groups of people: nations, for example. I don't remember her ever suggesting Britan didn't exist, only its individual men and women and families.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM

Last guest = anonymous wanker.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:04 AM

you lot are thick. Somewhere up the page, you criticize Thatcher for "asking the feckless to put on the uniform and go and die for their country."

All of the squaddies i know who were about at the time respected Thatcher for having balls, the Falklands, no compromise with the IRA etc.

You dont like in the proper world. Your probably all teachers and dreamers. If you go to Iraq, you will see that the majority of people out there are thankfull to us, and want to see Iraq on its feet.

You sad lot and Kerry still want to see American forces pull out of there, nice one.

The union strikes and that were a waste of time. Trade Unions have killed british industry. Thats why companies move work abroad where workers are more willing to work without screaming about "our rights, and pay rise."


thats all for now

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Piers
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM

So what's the plan Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:04 AM

Hi Johnny good to hear from you again!

I think I agree with you about Thatcher, unlike Blair she certainly wasn't a hypocrite.
She actually believed in what she was doing, and knew it would work for those she represented.

I never meant this to turn into a Thatcher bashing thread, I was more interested in debating the political reasons behind the changes in our national perception, that allows our prime minester and the majority of his cabinet to carry out such repressive policies at home and abroad and still remain, as Shakibus says, electible.

Blair and New Labour are short term, motivated by the need to stay in office above all else, and I believe this culture of deceit has affected most of the UK population.
Who these days regards any politician with any degree of respect?
Its now accepted that lies and distortion are part of the job.

Time we realised that winning elections means nothing if what we get at the end of the process is worthless...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 08:16 AM

Never! I agree with all erics sentiments about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:51 AM

Nah, if she goes to hell it'll be empty within five minutes.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:17 AM

She was a woman of incredible courage who was prepared to stand up for her beliefs no matter what, she deserves our admiration for that at least. Shame her beliefs were such a crock of shit, she deserves Hell for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:16 AM

One example ???    There are dozens of examples cited on this forum of the moral bankrupcy of British society at this time.

But the most dambing is the example set by our leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Was Thatcher right?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:23 AM

"Blair's performance will pass the test of time, I doubt if ake's will pass the current test match."

Did this drift into ake's performance?

I thought we were talkin' about Thatcher???

Blair? He'll go down as another American flunky. Well spoken and with a great deal of aplomb.

But aren't we talkin' about Thatcher???

She'll be remembered as the battleaxe.