Tuning a Fiddle

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

High-pitch accordion tunings (442, 443) are designed for egomaniacs who want to stand out over everybody else in a large loud band. They sound fucking horrible with normally tuned fixed-pitch instruments.

There is one session I don't go to any more because it's dominated by an accordionist who tunes sharp - very few of the instruments I play can tune that high and it makes my head hurt trying.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Fidjit
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:59 PM

Now about tuning

Common these days is 440
But, Local music school like their pupils to tune up to 442 Say it's sweeter up there.

In fact some accordions are also 442 Which annoys some purists.

With my guitar I tune to the Accordion no problem.

Wot Ya Fink ?

Chas

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: GUEST,holly
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM

New at fiddle, want to have an old fiddle strung by a music store, how much should I expect to pay? Tried to do this myself, and can't.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: GUEST,roberto n
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 09:37 PM

hi guys, i play guitar and drums mainly and recently brought a cheap violin to learn, mainly for my own fun and compositions (i dont expect to get to concert standard)
two questions really:

i was recomended by a friend to try cross tuning to AEAE but am unwilling to try this as i dont think my violin could take the extra strain on the bridge, does it make playing/learning easier? what would you recommend?

also, i noticed you talking about fine tuners, can the strings be tuned entirely from these or should they only be used for a tone either way for example?
any help much appreciated, thanks

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Tilly
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:00 PM

Try it and see, as I said above no consensus!

Mine takes time to recover neverf leave it cross tuned overnight.

Then it depends on teh fiddle.....

Tone value etc.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: GUEST,sceptic
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:56 PM

My original query was whether playing a fiddle in altered tunings could result in adverse molecular deformation of the wood , with resultant detriment to the tone (as was implied in an earlier post)

I assume from the lack of any links to published research that this now comes under the category of :urban-myth/fiddle ...

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: s&r
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:59 AM

Depends which GDAE though Andy. Pitch has varied over the lifetime of the violin according to the prevailing standard of the day or the whim of the conductor. Certainly the violin is normally tuned in fiths as standard. This shows a list of (piano) frquencies over a period of years rather less than the period of the violin

Stu

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 05:35 AM

My references indicate that there really aren't any baroque fiddles still in use. Virtually all that you'll see are reproductions made fairly recently, and are mostly based on guesswork about what they should look like. The old ones just haven't survived.

The changes made from the baroque era to modern times are only partly due to the higher tension strings used, and for the most part it's not because you need more strength for the new strings. It's because you can get more out of them with a little different construction.

The typical baroque violin had neck that extended straight out from the body, with a taper to raise the fingerboard (as it approached the body) so that the face of the fingerboard more or less followed the rise of the strings. The tapered neck was not only a bit on the heavy side, but created a variation in thickness, often both in width and depth, of the neck as one moved from one finger position to another.

The "modern" violin has the entire neck angled more or less parallel to the strings, allowing a constant or nearly constant cross section that facilitates rapid changes from one position to another, permits an untapered section where the hand moves about, and that also allows the use of a significantly lighter neck.

I'm pretty sure one of my books (I can't seem to find which one) made the claim that all known Stradivari instruments and probably all known Amatis and Guarneris have had the neck angle modification done. One reference that I did find suggested that Stainer was among the last to build violins with the wedge shaped neck, and possibly a few of them survive unmodified(?). At least one or two Amati violas appear to be unmodified from pictures I've seen.

It's likely that all, or nearly all the Stradivari violins have also had a bass bar rework. He used a bass bar about 2 cm shorter and quite a bit thinner than even his contemporaries, and in what was probably his original build the instruments would have had a somewhat "thinner" (but maybe more "fluid") tone - a sometimes cited characteristic of the baroque instruments.

While the heavier bass bar isn't really required for "modern strings," the higher tension strings do get more benefit from beefing it up a bit. With baroque strings it likely wouldn't make much difference, but with modern ones the heavier bar often gives considerable help with both tone and "projection." A reworked bass bar would nearly always be accompanied by a heavier sound post, simply because - with modern strings (and modern bows) - you can get by with it.

Most of the really old instruments are sort of like the old family heirloom. Three new handles and two new heads, but it's still granddaddy's axe.

John

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: fiddler
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM

This dicscussion could go on forever and never reach a concensus!

I agree with MD about guitars though, materials and structure differ greatly from fiddles.

As an aside I did discover a company in the midlands (UK) at one point who would take your fiddle off you and 're tune' the structure to give it a beter quality sound!

From what I heard they pared the back lining down giving an instant improvement in sound and quality - this was based on standard tuning, I have not heard if any still survive or sound OK now. If anyone knows of anyone who (yes I think that makes sense) who tried this I would love some feedback.

My feelings at the time were if it were that easy we'd all have fiddles sounding like top class Strads, or similar.

Anyway I stand by:- the structure is designed and built for GDAE and should be kept there for most of the time.

Andy

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:01 PM

1. I can't specify, but it's worthy of note that most baroque fiddles still in use have at some point been modified to cope with the higher string tension required by modern pitch. The question really relates to regular alterations in relative pitch for scordatura tunings; any experienced fiddle player already knows that some instruments will accept regular re-tuning while others won't.

2. The construction of guitars is very different, and no useful analogy can really be made.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: GUEST,sceptic
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM

Is there any published research to back up the contention that playing the fiddle in altered tuning is detrimental to the instrument ?

Many guitar players make a point of regularly altering the tuning by a quarter of a tone flat or sharp just to make the wood vibrate at an unfamiliar frequency.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: fiddler
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:48 AM

Yes Ray and I have discussed this with Dave, he prefers to tuen down and tune sback to standard soon after finishing keepiong the instrument in standard tuning most of the time.

Last time I saw him I am sure he had two fiddles one cross tuned and one standard - but my memory may be clouded.

I still stand by what I said Ray, the palying and tunning of a fiddle afects the fiddle in many ways and it is best kept in standard tuning - in my opinion anyway.

Andyh

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: GUEST,BanjoRay
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM

Andy - you've seen Dave Bing tune his fiddle to a few different tunings in workshops. He does it all the time and it doesn't seem to affect the playability of the fiddle one iota. This goes for a lot of great Old Time fiddlers- though most use steel strings.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Pauline L
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 11:02 PM

Andy, I agree.

Catsphiddle, I use fine tuners on all four strings because my wrists are weak and I have trouble trying to fine tune with pegs. It makes tuning less frustrating. A lot of my students use four fine tuners, too.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

Depending on the fiddle a word of warning!

Many old time and Blue grass fiddlers keep 2 fiddles one which never moves form Standard tuning and one which is used form cross tuning.

Cross tuning causes some changes to the fiddle I only tune down and never up. So really I rarely do cross tuning but it can be fun.

I can explain more about the changes if you wishm it is all to do with the harmonics and structure of the timber but essentially it changes the tone of the fiddle too (although it does reverse).

Some do say this is rubbish but more seem to agree.

Andy

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 03:08 PM

Sorcha -

I can "detect" the melody in Duncan's nototation for his arrangement, but I'm afraid I'd damage my digits trying to play it on my mando. With my fiddle, I'm told it doesn't make much difference what tune I think I'm playing.

John

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

John, the version I have is cross tuned.....from the Greenblatt book. ( I can't play it tho! LOL)

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:05 PM

Craig Duncan in his The Craig Duncan Master Fiddle Solo Collection, ©1999 Mel Bay, shows a "standard" tuning for this piece - low string to high, A E A C#. This likely is the same as used by Kenny Baker, since it's a "standard showoff piece."

As notated by Duncan every note in the piece is played as "double stops." There are a few places noted as "Left Hand Pizzicato" which may be helpful if you're trying to figure out how they get the "effects."

John

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 01:53 PM

E, A, E, A. The D and G are tuned up.

Subject: RE: Tuning a Fiddle
From:
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 01:32 PM

12-26-06
I'm Learning Bluegrass Fiddle. Kenny Baker Plays "Black Mountain Rag" in A-Tuning On His Fiddle On "A Bakers Dozen",CD CO-CD-2732. Help! How Do I Retune To A Tuning. I Am Now In G D A E.Thanks For Yor Help. Jack Crites

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM

Good points from fiddler-

As to the bows built to curve the "wrong" way- I think that the earlier (medieval-baroque) period had many bows built this way, but that for the last several hundred years, bow shape has become more standardized.

I have defnitely suffered from the musculo-skeletal problems related in part to bad posture- not just because of fiddle but certainly it affects it.

I think that there is a lot of classical technique that helps almost any style of fiddler to get a better sound, intonation, and knowing what your bow can do- as long as there is room to play and interpret the music in the traditional way- which then means leaving behind a lot of classical style for timing, bowing, variation etc and absorbing the rhythm, bowing, ornaments, variations, and sometimes intonation for a specific style....

Sharon

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: fiddler
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:22 AM

'I do agree though that lessons are important...for tuning and posture etc so you don't fall into bad habbits.'

Very important, mucular skeletal problems can ensue form some postures I have seen some very ungainly playing positions.

I have had physio when I was playing with no chin wrest!

Too often we throw away the rule book rather than analyse why it is that way and what might happen if we throw it away.

fortunately this threa has been brilliant.

Teh trouble with fiddling ('clasical or folk') is that it is all very personal but still does best within the 'normal' rules!!!!
]

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From:
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:37 AM

Pauline....Most classical violinists have a fine tuner on the E string not the A. I personally have had fine tuner's put on all my strings since I stopped playing classically most of the time, purely because it is easier to tune in a session...Im lazy what more can I say!! I haven't found what you haev found Pauling about classically trained people not being so helpful. Everyone that I have met, folkie and classical, over the 21 years I have been playing have been most helpful with advise and coaching.

I do agree though that lessons are important...for tuning and posture etc so you don't fall into bad habbits.

Good luck and enjoy!

Khatt

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Pauline L
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:30 AM

Tuning your fiddle is something else you should be *shown* how to do. Fiddlers and violinists often use different kinds of bows. There are issues of weight, balance, and speed. There are many ways you can damage your fiddle and bow unless someone teaches you how to care for them. Folk fiddlers at jam sessions are generally very happy to help and coach you. Classical violinists usually are not. Most classical musicians use a fine tuner only on the A string. I have tuners on all four strings because my wrists are weak and I have a devil of a time tuning with pegs. You have a wealth of good advice here on Mudcat, but you really must see and be seen playing fiddle to learn.

Andy (fiddler), which classical thread do you use? I have found one good one (violinist.com), but I'd like to use another one, too. Most of the classical threads I've tried are snobby and/or quarrelsome. Folk fiddlers are generally more congenial. ;-)

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:20 AM

If you've not been shown "how to tune" a peg style instrument, you really should get someone to show you the technique. (At least according to experts I met in my youth.) You need to "loosen" the peg just a bit when you start to tune, turn it to pitch and then "seat it" with a slight press into the hole for best results. If you try to push the peg in to where it holds while turning, you may ream out the peg holes so that maintenance will be required a lot more frequently.

A nephew who borrowed an old fiddle I had rebuilt ($10 from a garage sale) completely destroyed the peg holes in a little less than one school year through not being shown how. (Or maybe he thought it would get him out of the orchestra if he broke it?)

Opinions vary, but most players I know also keep a stick of "peg dope" in the case so that any time they change a string they can wipe a smear of it on the peg. It doesn't take much, but will make the peg action smoother. Since you have to take the peg out to get the dope where it's needed, it is just an occasional thing.

If you're not experienced (or just not currently practiced) at fiddle tuning, you may want to consider "fine tuners" on all the strings. Classical players generally(?) use them only on the top one or two strings, but lots of "folk" fiddlers use them on all four. They're often recommended for young students on all strings - at least around my neighborhood - since the little ones have a harder time holding the peg torque accurately (and often have poorly setup instruments?).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:57 AM

We are back to heaps of variety.

Bow tension for english / Irish / Scotish / american old time are all different and very personal.

In all cases the bow should not have to be pressed hard against the strings unless the music demands it (some of the Cape Breton stuff can be very agressive in that area)

The Bow for Classical playing would be white with rosin and the instrument (wood and strings) cleaned at the end of each session. Having said that many folk fiddlers use very little rosin which helps in skiming the bow over the strings does not produce heaps of volume and can give an edge on speed!

I was on a classical thread on this a few months ago - fascinating. Do what suits you but to protect the bow (be it wood or carbon fibre) it should always curve down towards the hair and never be arched! Unles sit is one of a few I have seen that are built that way! why ?????

Lessons is good! and just as good if you are coming back to playing after a gap year (or more) go to sessions and watch sometimes rather than play.

hope it helps - If I could play as well as I can explain all theis b*llsh*t I would be rich adn famous!

Andy

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Pauline L
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:57 AM

Re cross tuning: Many fiddlers who cross tune use one violin for that tuning and keep it that way. I'd be scared to make the strings much tighter than they are in normal tuning.

Fiddles "warm up" with use. The more you play a given fiddle, the better it sounds (if you're playing correctly). Wood gets stiff if it isn't used. Violins in museums are played from time to time to keep them in good working order.

Tighten your bow before you use it, and loosen it so it's very slack before you put it away. If you don't, you can easily ruin any bow. To tighten it before use, adjust it so that the stick has a bit of curve to it and it feels like *this* if you bounce it at *this point* on the back of your hand. I've said this before many times and I'll say it again: GET A FEW LESSONS! Fiddle playing is very technical and very physical. Verbal descriptions won't suffice.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:37 PM

I cross-tuned once, at a fiddle workshop. It scared me to death. It was fun and all, but I haven't done it since!

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:31 PM

Just until tight....the stick should NOT bow/bend at all. Don't take the camber out of it.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:27 PM

My notion on how tight the bow should be is that normal pressure against the string shouldn't push the bow hairs against the stick. I'm sure someone with a more professional opinion can give better advice there.

Assuming you got a new block of rosin with the new fiddle and bow, you probably aren't getting any rosin on the bow unless you've "roughed up" the surface of the rosin. Use something like a knife point, icepick, the end of a pair of scissors - or whatever else is handy to make a few generous "scratches" across the surface of the rosin block, to produce a bit of loose stuff and a few sharp edges that the hair can get a hold of. You shouldn't need much rosin on the bow hairs to get a sound, but it may take a bit of playing - and reapplying more - to get it worked in.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: brioc
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM

That has been fascinating indeed.
I am not particularly a novice, I have just never before had a BRAND new fiddle in my hands. Where I have had to mount the bridge, rosin and tighten the bow and tighten to tune the strings!! I played the fiddle as a youngster for quite a few years, and since then have played mandolin and whistle. So there y'are.

I have actually managed to tune her nicely. And now my question is :
how taught should the bow actually be? Does it need lots of rosin to start off? Cos what I would have thought to have been my "normal" stroke , is producing no sound!!******??????????

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: maeve
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

Nae fear o' offence, John. Leave your coat whaur it hangs.

Thanks for all the good information on fiddles, sound quality and all. I'll put it to good use.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:59 AM

Some fiddles will readily accept variant tunings, while others won't. Those I've had didn't like to be messed about with, and would sometimes take days to settle down after being forced outside what they were used to. It's probably best to keep a second instrument for scordatura tunings.

When I wake up in the morning, my muscles are inflexible and weak; also I can hardly speak. After a little while, the blood starts to circulate with exercise and gets better oxygenated; I can move more easily and my voice comes back. Violins are exactly the same (though they are less inclined to hangovers, perhaps); they need some exercise before they wake up properly, especially if they sleep for long periods between outings.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:33 AM

Sorry maeve I didn't mean to offend you, just trying to be witty I guess. I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Buddug
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 03:31 PM

My fiddle, which was my father's concert violin (and he was good) has to be 'woken up' sometimes - possibly a temperature/humidity thing - and the wave pattern theory sounds eminently sensible.Can take a few mins for it to get going - and yes, it does seem to warm up after a while. On other occasions it starts straight away... It doesn't like the cold, and I won't get it out on a campsite at night, even if there's a loud, permitted session going on. I used to, but it really doesn't like it so I've had to realise it knows best. I won't cross-tune it either, nor have a pick-up on it, and I really try not to get rosin build-up on it either.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: fiddler
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:55 AM

Hi Maeve,

All fiddles change in tone over the years and with playing!

The Scientists can show that the wood of the fiddle undergoes a temporary change when being played regularly by the same player. If it is left idle these changes reverse it is all to do with the alignment of the fibres and the carrying of the sound waves.

I know some fiddlers who claim their fiddle sounds different after about 45 mins of playing! I am not sure on this one.

The scientits however cannot tell us what makes a Stradavarius sound so good - and no one has a bad one to compare it too!

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: maeve
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:15 AM

John O'Lennaine- I never finish anyone's sentences before a formal introduction! :) I'm a bit mystified by the question, I admit.

My fiddle playing experience has all been in the standard tuning. I've learned some things thanks to the helpful responses to brioc's question.

fiddler- That's interesting. I had noticed that my fiddles each had an auditory comfort zone of sorts, tonewise. Maybe your theory above explains why. Thanks for the insight. Minor thread creep here... Is that why one of my fiddles has a super tone with the mute on, but is still in need of mellowing time without the mute?

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: fiddler
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:13 AM

yeah I sent a fiddle back once as it was out of tune when I took it out of its' case - no disrespect to brioc I couldn't resistr that one,! I think it has all been covered above. I rarely cross tune though, it changes the wave patterns in the wood and does not help the long term life and sound of the instrument. If I do I usually tune down GDGD - AEAE stresses all the gluing etc. and I don't like it - personal bent - I know some folk who have a standard and a cross tuned fiddle for those reasons.

Andy

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:58 AM

So, maeve and brioc, do you two finish each other's sentences and stuff like that?

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM

If the shop would sell it that way - without taking into account the noviceness of the buyer - I might not want to buy ANYTHING there...

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: maeve
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:07 AM

Sounds to me like it's just been sat in the shop for ages and no-one's bothered to tune it..." Graham."

"Does it actually have AEDD strings? Or has it got GDAE strings out of tune?" John O'Lennaine

I think you have it! Thanks, everyone! I just couldn't figure out why you'd tune it in that particular way!

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 01:32 AM

Does it actually have AEDD strings? Or has it got GDAE strings out of tune?

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 12:04 AM

I must admit I'm a bit confused about this......yes there is 'cross tuning', usually AEAE or ADAD.....but not this one. Bet the tuning has just fallen. New strings can't hurt tho. Prob be best.

PS...if you want to investgate cross tuning/skordata, look for Marion Thedes book. I used to have it....gone.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Pauline L
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM

Even if you bought it in a classical music store, I doubt it was tuned that way. Violinists slacken the strings if the instrument will not be used for a while. I've never heard of a violin tuned that way. Do you tune the A string up to a D? I don't think that would work. You'd break the string before it got that tight.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: brioc
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:47 PM

its actually sold as a classical instrument

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Grab
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:50 AM

Sounds to me like it's just been sat in the shop for ages and no-one's bothered to tune it...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:44 AM

DADA is good fun for a change. And a fairly common tunings for Norwegian dance tunes is ADAE (tuned up bass).   AEDD? Do you mean the high to low with two lower strings tuned in unison and the A and E as in standard tuning but reversed? Weird but the other way round is weirder. Might try it next time I want to chase the cats out . . .

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: maeve
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:08 AM

Let's try that again...tuned. Has anyone played a fiddle tuned in that way?

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: maeve
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:07 AM

Has anyone here played a fiddle tunes in that way (AEDD)? Why might someone want to have it thus?

Subject: RE: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:47 AM

No problem,
1 = E [thinnest]
2 = A
3 = D
4 = G

have fun, eric

Subject: Tech: TUNING A FIDDLE
From: GUEST,brioc
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:55 AM

Hello,
I have just acquired a violin, that is tunes A;E;D;D;
if I buy fiddle strings G;D;A;E; is it no problem to change the tuning,?