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Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?

Uke 10 Aug 05 - 03:39 AM
Le Scaramouche 10 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM
Uke 10 Aug 05 - 06:39 AM
Bat Goddess 10 Aug 05 - 07:54 AM
Jim McLean 10 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM
DrWord 10 Aug 05 - 09:19 PM
Amos 10 Aug 05 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Bill the Collie 11 Aug 05 - 02:12 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 11 Aug 05 - 02:39 AM
Le Scaramouche 11 Aug 05 - 10:59 AM
Amos 11 Aug 05 - 11:54 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM
Le Scaramouche 11 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM
Uke 11 Aug 05 - 04:19 PM
Amos 11 Aug 05 - 04:27 PM
Uke 17 Aug 05 - 01:33 AM
Le Scaramouche 17 Aug 05 - 05:32 AM
Amos 17 Aug 05 - 09:20 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 15 - 03:59 PM
FreddyHeadey 15 Oct 15 - 06:05 PM
maeve 15 Oct 15 - 06:22 PM
FreddyHeadey 15 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM
maeve 15 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM
maeve 15 Oct 15 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,# 15 Oct 15 - 06:47 PM
maeve 15 Oct 15 - 07:49 PM
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Monique 16 Oct 15 - 02:34 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Oct 15 - 01:53 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Oct 15 - 02:28 PM
Levana Taylor 17 Jan 22 - 02:56 AM
Monique 17 Jan 22 - 04:01 AM
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GUEST,keberoxu 17 Jan 22 - 12:01 PM
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Subject: Source of Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Uke
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 03:39 AM

I'm hoping someone out there who knows the poetry of Lorca might be able to help me trace the source of this oft-quoted poetic description of folk-inspired art:

"The poem, the song, the picture, is only water drawn from the well of the people, and it should be given back to them in a cup of beauty so that they may drink - and in drinking understand themselves."

I've looked through several translated anthologies of his poems, but with no luck. I'm starting to wonder if he really did create this passage. Help please!!


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM

It might not be a poem you know. It could be from a play, or from a letter, a review, anything.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Uke
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:39 AM

This is true, La Scaramouche. It's sometimes referred to as from a poem... though not always, and it seems to have gotten around without the source ever being specified.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:54 AM

I just did a quick Google of "water drawn from the well of the people" and got a lot of hits on the quote (including SingOut!) but no attribution (at least on the first couple pages -- don't have the time right now to check further).

I've got several translated compilations of his poetry and at least one biography (I think), but, alas, they're not as readily searchable as the internet.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM

Lorca did write it and I've seen it as a complete (short) poem on its own.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:34 PM

Not in Bartlett's [anglocentric] Quotations.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: DrWord
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:19 PM

Isn't it Federico?


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 11:12 PM

Here's one of many places it is quoted, in Sing Out. I have not been able to find the original place where he wrote it.


A


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:12 AM

Pete Heywood (Living Tradition magazine) uses this on the sleeve notes of his "Tradition Bearers" series of CD's by excellent traditional singers like Jack Beck, Jimmy Hutchison, Maureen Jelks, Heather Heywood etc.

Pete quotes it thus:

"The paintings, poetry and music
Are all merely water drawn from the well of mankind
And must be returned to him in a cup of beauty
So that he may drink
And in drinking, come to know himself.
LORCA"


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 02:39 AM

Federico García Lorca (1898-1936). Born in Fuente Vaqueros, best known for his powerful dramatic tragedies, which deal with elemental themes in a striking fashion (Chambers Biographical Dictionary).

Leonard Cohen and Shane MacGowan are among his admirers.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:59 AM

He collaborated with Paco Ibanez, IIRC, and a terrific performer of their songs is David Broza. In 1995, I think, there was a tribute album entitled Poetas en Nuevas York.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:54 AM

None of which answers the original question as to where he said it in the first place!! :D


A


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

Amos, this thread reminds me of a tactic used in grade school days- If we didn't know the answer, we would dredge up some other fact in the hope that the teacher would give us some credit, and we wouldn't lose face.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

I was responding to the leonard Cohen and Shane McGowan remark.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Uke
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:19 PM

I'm now trying to contact someone at the Spanish department at the local university, see if they know...

If this is successful I will post the answer.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 05 - 04:27 PM

Thank uke very much!


A


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Uke
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:33 AM

Hello Amos and everyone else,

No success, but thought I'd report back that nobody in my local Spanish department knows of the origin of this quote. They recommended looking at Lorca's essays - Nada! (as far as I could see)

It could possibly be one of his very early poems or 'juvenilia' - these aren't included in the standard translated Collected Poems. Or perhaps an interview: these aren't available in collected form.

I'm starting to think this quote qualifies as folklore. It's been passed along, from quote to quote, without any firm evidence of its origins.

I've seen several of 'variants' on the web too. In particular, instead of "cup of beauty", one speaks of "a golden cup"... though perhaps this is evidence it's been differently translated from a Spanish source ????


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:32 AM

if it is fakelore, it's done a pretty good job of mimicking Lorca's style.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:20 AM

Dang. Well, at least you had the pleasure of reviewing a lot of Lorca!!

A


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 03:59 PM

The source appears to be an English-language essay about Spain since the Spanish Civil War, written by....Langston Hughes.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:05 PM

And even then it is LH quoting Raphael Alberti quoting Lorca.

Google books

...the para' above "How to eat a cat"


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: maeve
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:22 PM

Also attributed to Lorca here:
Ritual Theatre: The Power of Dramatic Ritual ... By Claire Schrader on page 14, where the quotation is described and written as a poem.

The author of this Master's thesis includes the quotation, as attributed to Lorca.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM

I thought the story about the cat was going to be a joke.
It isn't.
They were hard times.

If you need to know :
...best way to eat a cat....

Sorry for the drift.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: maeve
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM

A report from San Francisco Commission on the Arts report includes this:
:

"In conclusion of her report. Director Isaacs read the following poem of Frederico Garcia Lorca, that reflects the philosophy of art and its relation to humankind, and that too,
she said, could also be a mission statement of the Arts Commission: "

the poem

the song

the picture

is only water

drawn from the well

of the people

and it should be given back

to them in a cup of beauty

so that they may drink

and in drinking

understand themselves



Frederico Garcia Lorca


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: maeve
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:40 PM

For those inclined to search further, here is last link for tonight:
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poet/federico-garc%C3%ADa-lorca

Selected Bibliography
Poetry

In Search of Duende (1998)
Selected Poems (1941)
Canciones (1927)
Poeta en Nueva York ("Poet in New York") (1940)
Lament for the Death of a Bullfighter and Other Poems (1937)
Llanto por Ignacio Sanchez Mejias (1935)
El poema del Cante Jondo (1932)
Romancero Gitano ("The Gypsy Ballads") (1928)
Libro de poemas (1921)
Impresiones y viajes (1918)


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 06:47 PM

With no offence to anyone, Lorca's first name is spelled

Federico.

That was noted much earlier in this thread. Perhaps a mod would be kind enough to modify the title.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: maeve
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:49 PM

Indeed it is. For now, this post's title has it spelled correctly, so until a mod can make the permanent correction at least someone searching for the correctly spelled name will find this thread. Thanks, friend #.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:51 PM

Good thinking, Maeve. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Monique
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:34 AM

Here you can find his complete works in Spanish, some poems with recordings.


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 01:53 PM

Just to say that, fine poet as Lorca clearly was, one of the most distinguished European writers of C20, as a theatre critic I have always found his excellent and extremely stageworthy plays the most interesting part of him. Particularly admire

Don Cristobal
Blood Wedding
The House of Bernada Alba

all of which I have seen with pleasure & admiration several times, and occasionally had the privilege of reviewing for The Guardian -- for ¼C my main outlet for play-related stuff.

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Frederico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:28 PM

I remember a Blood Wedding with an impressive performance from a young Rachel Weisz before she got really bigtime famous.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Levana Taylor
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 02:56 AM

Chasing this quote all over the internet seems to indicate an involved history. Various quote-sites give it as "El poema, la canción, la imagen, son solo agua extraída del pozo de la gente, y se les debe devolver en una copa de belleza para que puedan beber, y comprendan ellos mismos." But not a one indicates where/when Lorca wrote this, and there are a few variations. I did, however, find the following passage in Langston Hughes's autobiography; he was visiting Spain, and talking to Rafael Alberti, the Secretary General of the Alliance of Anti-Fascist Intellectuals, about their latest play. He reports that Alberti said to him, "What the members of the Alianza want to do is make art life, and life art, with no gulf between the artists and the people. After all, as Lorca said, 'The poem, the song, the picture is only water drawn from the well of the people, and it should be given back to them in a cup of beauty so that they may drink--and in drinking, understand themselves.'" Was this quote, then, ever even written down by Lorca, or only passed on by his fellow poet Alberti? Alberti probably said it to other people than Hughes; oral transmission would account for variation.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Monique
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 04:01 AM

I've just searched his complete work and the quote is nowhere to be seen.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Levana Taylor
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 04:17 AM

Yeah, it might have been in a private letter to Alberti, or only verbal, and we don't have a direct source from Alberti either, so that's two transmissions in this isnad...


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 12:01 PM

whatsa isnad?


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Levana Taylor
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 05:58 PM

Isnad https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/isnad


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 10:22 PM

So, I started digging away online, having to work from English.

I was surprised at what I found.
Granted, no citations or bibliography, but something more to work with.

"Art is not a mirror, but a hammer.
It does not reflect, it shapes!
The poem, the song, the picture
is only water drawn from
the well of the people
and it should be given back to them
in a cup of beauty
so that they may drink, and, in drinking,
understand themselves."

The place where this is printed is
a 1984 publication called Theatre Profiles
which can only be viewed, at Google Books, in 'snippet' form.

But just look at those first two lines:
it might be easier to scare something up using those,
especially if you go to Spanish rather than English.

When Garcia Lorca says "hammer"
I interpret this as a sculptor, like Michelangelo,
with hammer and chisel.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 11:05 PM

I apologize, the preceding is a WILD GOOSE CHASE ...
that is a quote attributed to Brecht, but probably someone else again.
Not Garcia Lorca.


For what it is worth:
Langston Hughes's autobiography exists in a Spanish translation,
and I just stumbled across that. Here:

"Alberti añadió:
'Lo que quieren hacer los miembros de la Alianza
es convertir el arte en vida y la vida en arte,
y acabar con la separación entre los artistas y el pueblo.
Después de todo, como dijo Lorca,

-- el poema, la canción, el cuadro,
son solo agua sacada del pozo del pueblo,
y habría que devolvérsela en una taza de hermosura
para que pueda beberla y, al beberla,
comprenderse a sí mismo. -- ' "


quote (no page number) from
Divago mientras vago:
Un viaje autobiográfico

Spanish translation: Mariano Peyrou, copyright, dated 2013
published by Antonio Machado Libros


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 11:20 PM

And, if that were not enough, this also is attributed to Langston Hughes,
but you can see that the Spanish comes out slightly differently.


El poema, la pintura, la canción,
no son más que agua extraída
del pozo del pueblo al que
se le devuelve en un recipiente de belleza
para que se la pueda beber, y al hacerlo,
se comprenda a sí mismo.

-- Escritos sobra España, by Langston Hughes
La Oficina BAAM, 2011, page 31.

The preceding is a footnote from
Que me estas cantando?:
Memoria de un siglo de canciones,
Fidel Moreno,
Penguin Random House/
Grupo Editorial España, 2018.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 11:36 PM

All right. Langston Hughes, again.
This is now in English, and is presented at the conclusion of:

"The Alliance of Antifascist Intellectuals, Madrid,"
radio speech, LHP 20 (Madrid, September 1937)


. . . The Alliance of Anti-Fascist Intellectuals is Madrid's center for such men and women. It is a center for every writer and artist who opposes the return to barbarism. It is a center for today's work and tomorrow's dream. It is a place where creative miracles continually happen. It is a place where now, today, art becomes life and life is art, and there is no longer any need of a bridge between the artists and the people -- for the thing created becomes immediately a part of those for whom, from whom, it was created. The poem, the picture, the song is only water drawn from the well of the people and given back to them in a cup of beauty so that they may drink -- and in drinking, understand themselves.
That is art in Loyalist Spain. And that is the function of Madrid's Alianza, the Alianza de Intelectuales Antifascistas.


page 152, The Collected Works of Langston Hughes, volume 9: Essays on Art, Race, Politics and World Affairs, edited with an introduction by Christopher C. de Santis, Columbia and London:
University of Missouri Press, 2002.

The date of 1937 is rather shortly after
the assassination of Lorca in his native Granada,
and elsewhere in the speech, Hughes reports on Lorca's death.
Nowhere in this speech does Hughes attribute those key sentences
either to Garcia Lorca or to Rafael Alberti.


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 10:25 PM

Increasingly it seems evident that
the "poem" considered in this thread
originates with Langston Hughes rather than
Federico García Lorca or Rafael Albertí,
and that it is because of Hughes's context, in the speech,
of the resistance in Spain, and the Alianza in particular,
that the name García Lorca has stuck to this quote.

It makes me wonder, of course,
about that Hughes Autobiography with the Alberti/Lorca citation.
Did some editor or other mess with the facts?


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: Levana Taylor
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 10:45 PM

It is pretty odd that Hughes would have first made a speech, not crediting anyone else with having written it, and then in his autobiography, claim that Rafael Alberti had spoken those very words to him! What did he gain from doing that?


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Subject: RE: Federico Garcia Lorca Poem?
From: GUEST,JF
Date: 16 May 22 - 10:15 PM

Sounds like it was Hughes, no? This seems pretty incredible to me.

I put this version of the poem in and found it cited on this site:

https://www.massreview.org/sites/default/files/Scaramella%2C%20Evelyn.pdf


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