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Subject: Origins: Bantry Girls Lament From: GUEST Date: 12 Aug 05 - 06:26 PM Can anyone help with the background to this Irish song that I found on an Eleanor Shanley CD where she duets with Eddie Reader. In particular what was the war with Spain that is referred to Thanks |
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Subject: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Dickmac Date: 12 Aug 05 - 06:36 PM Can anyone help with the background to this Irish song.In particular the reference "Gone to fight the King of Spain" - what war ? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls Lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM The British fought in Spain during the Peninsular Wars (Napoleonic era wars). This seems to have spawned lots of laments. There are versions in the DT. See thread 44455: Patriot game but see posts Thread 71328: Bantry |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 05 - 08:40 PM See thread 83745, running now. Bantry This duplicate thread should be deleted.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Dickmac Date: 13 Aug 05 - 07:06 AM Thanks I realise I've posted this twice. how do I delete ? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST Date: 15 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM Dick Swain after hearing me sing this had mentioned it comes from the 'War of Jenkin's Ear'. Copied from: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The War of Jenkins' Ear was a conflict between Great Britain and Spain that lasted from 1739 to 1742. Under the 1729 Treaty of Seville, the British had agreed not to trade with the Spanish colonies. To verify the treaty, the Spanish were permitted to board British vessels in Spanish waters. After one such incident in 1731, Robert Jenkins, captain of the ship Rebecca, claimed that the Spanish coast guard had severed his ear, and in 1738 exhibited it to the House of Commons - hence the name of the conflict. The British Prime Minister, Robert Walpole, reluctantly declared war on October 23, 1739. Google has plenty more on this. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM The lyrics come from a modern poem by P. J. Kavanagh, and are set to an older tune. Kananagh edited the "Oxford Book of Shorter Poems" and, in addition to being a poet, is a columnist and broadcaster. There are no prior records of the lyrics, but they are vaguely reminiscent of a couple of songs from the time of the Peninsular War. Without documentation, Mudcat DT (Numachi) mentions the Peninsular War as the inspiration for the song. The author of the lyrics is not credited. The Connolly's describe it as a song about an Irish young man who went to fight in the Spanish Civil War (1930s). Google, of course, has many unsupported statements by various recorders of the song. The recording that spread the song most effectively probably was the one by the Clancy Brothers, but it had been recorded earlier in 1978. Only a few of those who recorded the tune give credit for the lyrics. Guitar tabs are here: Bantry Girl |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MartinRyan Date: 15 Aug 05 - 02:46 PM Sorry, Q - which lyrics? Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:27 PM MartinRyan, the lyrics to "Bantry Girl's Lament" are in the DT. I have not seen the book in which the poem was originally published, but I believe that they are version (2). As sung by the Clancy Brothers in "Tales & Tunes," 1988, version (1). Not attributed to Kavanagh, but they are his. I don't have the cd handy, but I believe the Clancys did. Also attributed properly at the guitar tab site I linked above (tabs arranged by Martin Simpson). These chords are for the simplified tune as performed by the Clancy Brothers and Van Morrison, and others. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:37 PM Added note- Since I have not seen the original poem, I won't add Kavanagh's name to the Attribution thread. The sources I took were on google, and sources there is not always trustworthy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:46 PM Colm O Lochlainn gave the lyrics in his first ballad book, 1939: probably Patrick Joseph Kavanagh's source. This song was definitely written long before Kavanagh was born in 1904 and certainly not written by him. That's a nonsense statement. This is a Wexford song (see my post on a related thread on "Moneyhore", mentioned in the song, which is in County Wexford). Kavanagh was from Monaghan, and never wrote about anywhere in Ireland apart from the two areas in which he lived: Monaghan and Dublin: wise man Q. (Kavanagh is of course author of "On Raglan Road", among many other things). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 15 Aug 05 - 04:26 PM I have Delia Murphy singing this song recorded during the 1950s. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Lighter at work Date: 15 Aug 05 - 05:50 PM The connection between Kavanagh and "The Bantry Girl's Lament" lies, IIRC, solely in the fact that both it and K's "On Raglan Road" are sung to the old tune, "The Dawning of the Day." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM Thanks for the corrections. That is why the Google can't be trusted. I should know better. Several websites mention Kavanagh. I just checked folktrax and found the O Lochlainn 1939 reference (Roud 2999), cited by Big Tim. It has the line "Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King of Spain," so seems to be a little different from those in the DT. What were the words in O Lochlainn's book of 1939? (Irish Street Ballads?) Any prior records? Not in the Traditional Ballads Index. Not in Sam Henry. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: vectis Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:13 PM I always thought that it stemmed from the Napoleonic wars when Napoleon put a relative on the Spanish throne thus deposing the rightful Spanish King of the time. There were a number of Irish regiments fighting with the English at this time so I reckon it is possibly true. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:46 PM The two DT texts name no proper sources (the Clancy Brothers could have got the song from Peruvians, for all the information we're given, and the other file acknowledges no source of any kind); so they are worthless to anybody wanting to know about the song's background. At a rough guess I'd think that the second DT file is a transcription from a record made by revival performers; a slightly garbled take on the O Lochlainn set. Probably the first file (as recorded by the Clancys) was also got from O Lochlainn's book. The chorus is almost certainly a bogus Clancy invention aimed at lowest-common-denominator "singalong" audiences. A speciality of theirs. For what it's worth, Lochlainn himself provides no useful source information. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:36 AM My copy of O'Lochlainn gives two sources.(Unless I'm misinterpreting his shorthand). 1. "Piii, 693", [which is the Complete Petrie Collection] 2. "Pi, 134" [Petrie's Ancient Irish Music]. Petrie's works are dated between 1855 and 82. O'Lochlainn says that the tune is a variant of "Dawning of the Day", so there indeed is a link to Patrick Kavanagh. (O'Lochlainn was a piper with a great ear for melodies) O'Lochlainn's version is pretty standard, "Johnny went a thrashing the dirty King of Spain", etc. Re the "Moneyhore" verse, this is a townland near Enniscorthy, Co. Wexford, renowned for its Fair, at which the Bantry girls were no longer going to enjoy Johnny's company. Fairs were often the scene of Faction Fighting, so the fact that "the Peelers must stand idle" perhaps suggests that Johnny was a renowned Faction Fighter. In Aidan O'Hara's biography of her, Delia Murphy's recording of the song is dated 7 February 1941 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:10 AM It's just occurred to me that maybe O'Lochlainn's Petrie references are to the air, not the words. Can anyone access Petrie? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:54 AM Big Tim I'll check Petrie. Are the words in Croker? Regards p.s. still relying on memory - can't find backup of of my nicked laptop files! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:54 AM O Lochlainn's note indicates (by double asterisks) that he got the words to "The Bantry Girl's Lament" from H. H. Sparling's "Irish Minstrelsy" (London: Walter Scott, 1888). The melody came from Petrie. Sparling, BTW, was the first anthologist to include the now familiar words of "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: belfast Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:07 AM Patrick Kavanagh and P J Kavanagh. Two different people. One from Co Monagahan and the other born in England. Neither responsible for writing the Bantry Girls' Lament. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:14 PM Lighter at work says that the Bantry girls lament has the same air as The Dawning of the day, well, certainly not Delia Murphys version, in fact trying to place the tune as sung by Delia is a puzzle, and I have heard lots of songs in my time. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:55 PM Bantry is one of County Wexford's ten baronies, and one of the biggest, situated in the mid west of the County. It includes Enniscorthy, Killanne and New Ross. In the 1798 Rebellion, rebel regiments were often named after baronies. For example, John Kelly (of Killanne) was a Colonel of the Bantry Regiment. Other Wexford baronies famed in song are Forth, Bargy and Shelmaliere, all in the south of the County. Delia Murphy's version (1941), almost certainly the first recording of the song, is in almost word for word agreement with O'Lochlainn, except that she omits the fourth verse, starting, "At wakes or hurling matches your like we'll never see". It's seems probable that she found it in O'Lochlainn's first ballad book, 1939, though she did have an extensive song collection of her own, picked up from a wide variety of sources. Basically, Delia was Ireland's first lady of folk. A 22 track CD was issued in 2001, "Delia Murphy: the Legendary Queen of Irish Folk Singers". O'Lochlainn says that the melody is a variant of "Dawning", not identical. Personally, I can't hear it but then O'Lochlainn was a much better musician than me. He was taught the pipes by "old" Seamus Ennis, father of renowned piper "young" Seamus Ennis, 1919-82. It was said of O'Lochlainn that he only had to hear a tune once and he "had" it. He didn't read music and would carry the tune in his head until he got some one to write it down, often Gerald Crofts. It's also said of him that he wasn't above changing traditional lyrics, so it would be interesting to see what the lyrics are in Sparling's "Irish Minstrelsy". Any takers? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:07 PM Tim we all have an ear for a tune, and if anyone listens to Delia`s singing of The Bantry girls lament and can liken it to The Dawning of the day, i`m afraid I will take to listening to the Lambeg Drum. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Lighter Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:33 PM Well, then, I guess she wasn't using O Lochlainn's tune, was she? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM You are right, Lighter. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:10 PM I didn't read Lochlainn's note carefully enough, it seems. I don't have a copy of Sparling; it would be interesting to know if he printed a tune, or indicated one; that might explain the apparently different one used by Delia Murphy, perhaps. Stanford-Petrie 693 is prefixed by the couplet Oh Johnny dearest Johnny, what dyed your hands and cloaths? He answered him as he thought fit 'by a bleeding at the nose.' Lochlainn also quotes it in his note. The lines seem to be from The Witham Miller or one of its many variants, so the tune may not traditionally have belonged to Bantry Girls at all. Immediately following is number 694, The dawning of the day (from Kate Keane, December 1854) with a note appended: "A variant of the preceding". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MartinRyan Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM OK. I have two copies of Sparling. Only the earlier (1887) contains the song. No music. Sparling writes: "Taken from Graves' collection; on ballad-slips I have only seen very confused versions". This refers to A P Graves "Songs of Irish Wit and Humour", published 1884. Graves' book has neither music nor notes on sources - at least not in my copy. The version is the full 5 verses. Haven't checked it down to the exact words. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MartinRyan Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM p.s. A quick glance at the index of the annotated "Petrie Collection of the Ancient Music of Ireland" edited by Cooper, shows no sign of the song. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Lighter Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:32 PM MartinRyan, does Petrie include the melody of "The Dawning of the Day" ? If so, I wonder how it compares to what O Lochlainn printed. Am fascinated to know that there are two different editions of "Irish Minstrelsy." Is "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" in 1887 ? I can't recall which one I looked at long ago, but "Johnny" was at the very end, almost an afterthought. And I notice that the Bantry girl's song in O Lochlainn has her sweetie dying in Spain "for freedom." Sounds a bit anachronistic to me, but perfectly in keeping with the Spanish Civil War. Is that an O Lochlainn touch ? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:22 PM Lochlainn prints Stanford-Petrie 693 almost exactly; a couple of changed note-values only (see my earlier post). If it's in Cooper, it will probably be listed as 'Oh Johnny dearest Johnny' or something like that; as I said, the song it belonged to doesn't seem to have been Bantry Girls at all, but an Irish version of The Bloody Miller (Oxford Girl, Wexford Girl, etc). Does Petrie's Ancient Irish Music have any more detail? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:52 AM This gets curiouser and curiouser. "Dawning of the Day" was one of O'Lochlainn's all-time favourite songs. He sang it in public at a concert in Dublin in 1913 (no further details to hand). He was born in Dublin in 1892 and died in 1972. He wasn't a native Irish speaker, though he learned to speak it like a native and was quite scathing about other "big" collectors, notably Bunting, Petrie, and Joyce, for their almost complete ignorance of the Irish language, as he saw it. He hated Bunting in particular, calling him "arrogant". Spanish Civil War? No! O'Lochlainn might change an odd word here or there, perhaps to |"improve" the rhythm, but he had too much inegrity to change the meaning of a song. btw, his name wasn't "Colm"! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:31 AM Curiouser and curiouser indeed, I brought three old friends in to listen to Delia singing The Bantry girls lament, and also played a recording of The dawning of the day, sung by Michael O`Duffy. The three men who ajudicated for me have been around the Irish music scene for many years and after hearing both songs found it incredible that anyone could have mistaken both songs as having the same air. Delia finshes the first verse with, "since Johnny went athrashing, the dirty King of Spain", by the way, have any of you heard Delia`s version?. The three friends also praised Delia`s singing of a fine song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,HughM Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:15 AM I thought the War of Jenkins' Ear sounded plausible, but then I looked up Sir Robert Peel and saw that he created the Metropolitan Police after becoming home secretary in 1822, after both the Peninsular War and the War of Jenkins' Ear. Do all versions of the song include the word "peelers"? If so, it was probably written after 1822, though I suppose it could still refer to one of these wars. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MartinRyan Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM Let's sort out the words:# Graves in "Irish Songs of Wit and Humour" (1884) has the following: Oh, Who will plough the field or who will sell the corn? Oh, Who will wash the sheep an' have 'em nicely shorn? The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King of Spain The girls from the bawnogue in sorrow may retire And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire For Johnny, lovely Johnny is sailing o'er the main Along with other patriarchs to fight the King o' Spain The boys will surely miss him when Moneyhore comes round And they'll weep that their bould captain is nowhere to be found the peelers must stand idle, against their will and grain Since the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see Till you come back again to us astore gra-geal-machree And won't you throunce the buckeens that show us much disdain Because our eyes are not so black as those you'll meet in Spain If cruel fate will not allow our Johnny to return His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot and live in grief and pain Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land of Spain Sparling's first edition (1887) doesn't include the song - and makes no mention of Graves' book. Sparling's second edition (1888)includes the song, gives Graves as the source. His only change is to give the Irish phrase in verse 4 in Gaelic spelling: a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe (N.B. Note the Cló Rómhánach! Nothing new under...) O'Lochlainn gives Sparling as his source for the words and makes a few minor changes: The boys will surely miss him when Moneymore comes round And they'll weep that their bould captain is nowhere to be found the peelers must stand idle, against their will and grain Since the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King of Spain At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see Till you come back again to us astóirín óg mo chroí And won't you throunce the buckeens that show us much disdain Because our eyes are not so bright as those you'll meet in Spain O'L gives Petrie as his source for the air - with the "Johnny, lovely Johnny.." lines quoted earlier. Petrie says of that air: (collected) " in the county of Londonderry in the summer of 1837 and is very probably a tune of Ulster origin. It was sung to an Anglo-Irish peasant ballad, of which I have preserved the following quatrain: " - followed by the lines cited. As a musical illiterate, I can only say that O'L s tune LOOKS the same as Petrie's! The words are a different matter - they certainly sound like a fragment of Edward/What put the blood... and the date makes it very unlikely to have been the same song. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:23 AM Of course I have Delia Murphy's version. If I hadn't, how could I have written above "Delia Murphy's version (1941), almost certainly the first recording of the song, is in almost word for word agreement with O'Lochlainn, except that she omits the fourth verse, starting, "At wakes or hurling matches your like we'll never see". The point about Peel is very interesting. In 1814 he instituted the Peace Preservation Force (the basis for the RIC in 1867): doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "Peelers"! The song could still have been about Peninsula War, and indeed written at that time, with "Peelers" substituted at a later date. The first established police force in Ireland came in 1787. Named after the geographical areas of the Baronies, they were known as "Barnies" (yes, honestly!). "The Barnies must stand idle"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Lighter at work Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:38 AM Thanks, Martin. So it looks as though O Lochlainn *did* alter the "died for Ireland's pride" phrase. Fascinating. Might there be two different tunes known in the 19th C. as "The Dawning of the Day" ? Just a guess. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Lighter at work Date: 17 Aug 05 - 09:55 AM Let me take that back. I see now that "died for freedom's sake" is in the second DT text of "Bantry Girl," but *not* in O L.'s. It was the source of the DT text that made the alteration, not O L. O L took his melody from The Complete Petrie Collection, vol. 3, p. (or perh. No.) 693. He says that "The Dawning of the Day," which is the very next tune (694), is a "variant." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim (on new pc!) Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:24 PM I wonder why O'L changed "Moneyhore" to "Moneymore"? Probably a simple error, but an important one. "Moneyhore" places the song firmly in Wexford, rather than in the better known Bantry in Co. Cork. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MartinRyan Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:41 PM Lighter The immediate source of the DT(2) version was MR - your humble servant! I don't remember offhand whether I transcribed it from a text or did it from memory - I used to sing it fairly regularly. Several of the variants one hears of this (and other songs) probably reflect the Irish love of internal rhyming. Regards p.s. anyone trawled for broadsheet versions? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:10 PM And Tim, having heard Delia`s version would you say that it in any way sounds like "The dawning of the day"?. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Lighter Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM Ouch ! And thanks ! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:25 PM Lighter, it`s a lovely air quite unlike "The Dawning of the day", I suppose if everyone on this Thread had heard Delia Murphy`s singing of The Bantry girls lament, this would have been a shorter Thread. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:36 PM Is the recording by Delia Murphy available anywhere? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM Google, Kelkoo Music, Delia Murphy and you will find a CD which includes The Bantry girls lament. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,tonyo Date: 08 Jan 06 - 11:35 AM A few points: 1. Jimmy Crowley has a couple of recorded versions of this song; from 1979 on "Camp House Ballads" 1979 with Stoker's Lodge and from 1998 on "Uncorked" solo and live. Jimmy (a Corkman) himself declares on the notes to Uncorked; "I mistook the locale for years and didn't realise there was another Bantry, in North Co. Wexford, where this love song from the Peninsular Wars comes from". 2. There is no place called Moneyhore in Wexford but there is a Moneymore. 3. O'Lochlainn's first name is/was Colm, at least according to my edition of both his collections. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 08 Jan 06 - 01:43 PM 1. From Micheál Tóibín's book "Enniscorthy; History & Heritage" (1998); "That fine ballad 'The Bantry Girls' Lament' calls to mind the celebrated fair of Moneyhore [note; his spelling is Moneyhore]...Moneyhore [again, his spelling] Mohurry, Clohamon, Scarawalsh - the passing of a century has brought an end to these village fairs and time has lent them a romantic glow which will linger on in popular memory long after the dates of the gatherings and locations of the greens are forgotten". 2. The first name of Colm O'Lochlainn (1892-1972) was in fact William. He was born in Dublin as William Gerard O'Loughlin and changed his first name to Colm when he was about 20. He also gaelicised his surname. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MARINER Date: 08 Jan 06 - 05:53 PM To the best of my knowledge "Bantry Girls Lament" is from Wexford. In reference to the Wexford Baronies I would like to point out that the Barony of Bargy is not pronounced BARJEE as many non Wexfordmen, including Luke Kelly, sing it.( as in Kelly the boy from Kilanne.) but Bargee with a softer G. Hope this makes sense . Bargy Castle once home of Begnal Harvey of '98 fame was the boyhood home of Chris de Burgh . |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:01 AM Moneyhore is located about 2 or 3 miles south west of Enniscorthy. On the OS map it is mispelled at "Moneyheer". This is quite common as the original OS surveyors in the 1830s and 40s were mostly non-Irish speaking (often British army officers) and took down the placenames phonetically from local people. (See Brian Friel's play "Translations"). For example: my own native place can be spelt either as Crockglass or Cruckglass. Moneyhore was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the main Wexford rebel leaders in 1798. He survived (one of the very few)and wrote his memoirs in 1832. They are called "The Irish Rebellion: A Personal Narrative of Those Transactions in the County Wexford in Which the Author was Engaged, During the Awful Period of 1798, Interspersed with Brief Notices of the Principle Actors in That Ill-fated But Ever Memorable" [by] Thomas Cloney. A second hand copy is currently available on ABE. The asking price is $4000.00 !! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,HughM Date: 10 Jan 06 - 02:59 PM If "ba/n" means pale or fair, and "o/g" means young, what's a ba/n-o/g or bawnogue? Surely not a patch of green ground as it says in the DT? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: MartinRyan Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:12 PM "bán" also means "field". "óg" in this case is a simple diminutive, according to Dinneen's dictionary. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:13 AM According to Ó Dónaill's dictionary "Foclóir Gaelige-Bearla", "banchríoch" means, "Green boundary strip between fields". According to Terence Patrick Dolan's "A Dictionary of Hiberno-English", "banóg, also bawnogue", means "a patch of green". He gives the useage example, "they were dancing on the bawnogue until the crack of dawn". However, as well as being a general noun, it's also a specific place name. Two examples are 1. The Bawnogue, just over the Wexford border into Co. Kilkenny, a few miles east of the town of Borris. It was her that Father John Murphy ("of Boolavogue") spent 26-28 June 1798 on the run before being captured and executed a few days later. 2. Bawnogue is also the name given to an area of Clondalkin, in south west Dublin City. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,HughM Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:07 PM Many thanks, Martin and Tim. That clears up a question which has been in my mind for ages! It seems a fairly safe bet then that the bawnogue in the song is The Bawnogue in Kilkenny. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:09 AM On balance, I would plump for "Bawnogue" in the song being used in the general sense, rather than the specific. The Ó Dónaill dictionary gives 13 meanings for "bán"! The 13th is "talamh bán = fallow land, lea, grass-land", so, that's in agreement with Martin's dictionary! The more common word for "field" is though, "gort". I have never heard the word "bawnogue" used in Donegal. Is it still in use elsewhere in Ireland? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,john dean Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:37 AM If the verse with peelers is original , it might place the song after the napoleonic wars but in the "Carlist" civil war in Spain in the 1840s [?], when an unofficial "British" brigade was raised in Britain and Ireland to fight for the previous kings daughter rather than [ the pretender,] Don Carlos, giving emphasis to "fighting the dirty king of spain ". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Obscure Ed Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:19 PM I'm visiting this old page after hearing Denny Bartley's fantastic version, with Chris Sherburn on concertina. A couple of comments: The OED says that "peeler" originally referred to the Irish constabulary; the first cited use was in 1816. So the mention of peelers does not really help us with dating. An early appearance of the song is in the Dublin University Magazine, Dec. 1863 (archive.org). The song text (essentially the same as the one quoted above) has a few helpful footnotes: "bawnoge" is defined as "village green"; "pathriarchs" [sic] as "a substitute for _patriots_ by Johnny's loving but unlearned admirers"; "Moneyhore" as "a village between Enniscorthy and Castleboro', with the privilege of fairs". The article purports to be a description of "Irish Harvest Homes and their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since". The same article appeared in 1867 as a chapter in Patrick Kennedy's "The Banks of the Boro: A Chronicle in the County of Wexford". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Obscure Ed Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:39 AM The song is in The Poets and Poetry of Ireland (1881), with an introductory paragraph: The following spirited and humorous "lament" is taken from "The Banks of tbe Boro," by Patrick Kennedy, a story which gives with remarkable faithfulness and minuteness the incidents of Irish country life. It is given with a number of other specimens of peasant poetry. Nowadays it tends to be sung straight, but humorous elements are there to see: "dirty king"; piper blowing the fire with his bellows; valiant boy in trouble with the peelers. Some of the language might be a caricature of country style ("pathriarchs", "throunce the buckeens... bekase our eyes"). Perhaps there's also a question of why Ireland's pride was dependent on war in the foreign land of Spain. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,Rafael del Castillo Date: 10 Sep 17 - 04:42 AM Is it sure that Jhonny came t fight "against" the King of Spain?. In Spain there were three Regiments formed by irish: Ultonia, Ibernia and Irlanda. They fought for Spain more r less since 1689 untill 1814. The ctholic irish were widelly admired in the spanish forces and administration. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: GUEST,David Rowlands Date: 03 Oct 17 - 05:38 AM I believe that this song dates from the 1st Carlist War, a civil war in Spain (1833 to 1839), fought between supporters of the regent, Maria Christina, acting for Queen Isabella II of Spain, and those of the late king's brother, Carlos de Borbón. The Carlists supported return to an absolute monarchy. The British Auxiliary Legion was raised and sent to Spain to support the Liberals and Queen Isabella against the Carlists (headed by 'the King of Spain'). It was raised mainly in the ports and cities of Britain and Ireland in 1835 and fought in the Basque territory in north-eastern Spain. The Legion was funded and the soldiers paid by the Spanish crown. In the summer of 1836 a force of 10,000 men under the command of General Sir George De Lacy Evans had assembled in San Sebastian. They fought near Hernani and Vittoria. The fighting was savage; no quarter was given. A former soldier wrote that to fall into the enemy's hands was certainly a tortured death. The volunteers signed up for 2 years service and a great many were Irishmen. One of the Legion's two cavalry regiments was titled: 2nd Queen's Own Irish Lancers – (predominantly Irishmen). The Legion's ten battalions of infantry were organised into "English", "Scottish" and "Irish" brigades. 1st English Battalion 2nd English Battalion 3rd Westminster Grenadiers – English 4th Queen's Own Fusiliers – English 5th Scotch – Scottish 6th Scotch Grenadiers – Scottish 7th Irish Light Infantry – Irish 8th Highlanders – Scottish 9th Irish Grenadiers – Irish 10th Munster Light Infantry – Irish The 7th Irish Light Infantry, 9th Battalion (Irish Grenadiers) and 10th battalion (Munster Light Infantry) were brigaded together under Brigadier-General Charles Shaw, a veteran of 1815 and the Portuguese Civil War. The brigade quickly won a reputation for being one of the toughest units of the Legion. After heavy casualties in action and from disease the Legion was disbanded in December 1837. A quarter of the force (some 2,500 men)died,only half of them in combat. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: Gutcher Date: 04 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM S.R.Crocket wrote an historical novel about the war mentioned in the last post. I must dig out my copy and check out the Irish/Scots references. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: The Sandman Date: 22 Nov 18 - 05:03 AM i love the line about the pper lighting the fire with his bellows |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girls lament From: The Sandman Date: 23 Nov 18 - 02:44 PM anyone know the meaning of the line And once you trounce the buckeens That show us much dis[G]dain Be[C]cause our eyes are not as bright As those you'll [G]find in [C]Spain |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:22 AM The song is from North County Wexford. The Barony of Bantry, in the County of Wexford was in place as far back as 1672. Moneyhore is a townland in the Barony of Bantry and was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the leaders of the 1798 rebellion. Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837 identifies Moneyhore as a place where cattle fairs 'are held at Moneyhore on the 25th of Feb., March, and May, on Oct. 2nd, and Dec. 7th; four of these are held by patent, for which a fee of 15s. per ann. is paid to the Crown by Mr. Wm. Condon, of Dublin.' Faction fighting and at least one death, are reported as occurring at the fairs. The first printed version of the song is in a readily available book by Patrick Kennedy titled 'The Banks of the Boro : a chronicle of the County of Wexford'. According to the author, the book relates events that took place in 1817/18. One of the characters in the book sings the song. The manuscript of the book, again according to the author's preface, was completed in 1856. The book appears to have been published in 1869. The words of the song have been altered a little along the way. This includes the modernisation of archaic words such as 'pathriarchs ' and 'bekase'. (Personally, I prefer to sing the song in as original a version as is available, and I like the selling of the corn and the washing of the sheep). I agree with Dave Rowlands, who is a considerable expert in military history, about the origins of the song being in the Carlist war period (see above). This is obviously after the 1817/18 period that Kennedy states he is relating. More likely, Kennedy heard the song, or possibly even wrote the song, much closer to 1856 when he claims to have completed the manuscript. The 'dirty King of Spain' is a fairly clear reference to the 'Carlist pretender' to the throne, as opposed to the Spanish Queen. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,Gabriel Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:35 AM As above (from me, Gabriel Scally) the lyrics as given in the earliest recognised text that I have located, are as follows: O who will plough the field, or who will sell the corn? O who will wash the sheep, an' have 'em nicely shorn? The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King o’ Spain The girls from the bawnoge in sorrow may retire And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire For Johnny, lovely Johnny, is sailin’ o'er the main Along with other pathriarchs, to fight the King o' Spain The boys will sorely miss him when Moneyhore comes round And grieve that their bould captain is nowhere to be found The peelers must stand idle against their will and grain For the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see Till you come back again to us a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe And won't you throunce the buckeens that shows us much disdain Bekase our eyes are not as black as those you'll meet in Spain If cruel fate will not permit our Johnny to return His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot, and die in grief and pain Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land o’ Spain |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:40 PM Nice find, Gabriel. The song appeared a little earlier in Kennedy's article "Irish Harvest Homes and Their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since," in the Dublin University Magazine (Dec., 1863). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM The song is generally reckoned tp be from co Wexford, Carlist War of 1833–39? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM Moneyhore Townland, Co. Wexford https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9Jzy_JxrSfo |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:06 PM Kennedy places the song in 1817-18. If correct, that would make it a relic of the Peninsular War. Of curse, the UK was supporting, not fighting the "King of Spain" at that time, but the reference in the song might just be meant to suggest the speaker's provincial naivete'. Historically, the King of Spain would more likely be an adversary than an ally. As usual, there's no proof either way. (Oxford shows the word "peeler" to have been in use by 1816 in reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:29 PM When King Ferdinand VII of Spain died in 1833, his widow, Queen Maria Cristina, became regent on behalf of their two-year-old daughter Queen IsabellA lighter you are wrong the uk was not supporting the king of spain your scholarship is wrong ,there is no 'of course. The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8 Edward M. Brett Hardback €49.50 Catalogue Price: €55.00 ISBN: 1-85182-915-6 May 2005. 208pp; ills. The two Carlist wars are probably the least remembered, outside Spain, of the civil conflicts of the country. In the first of these, as in 1936, foreign volunteers fought on both sides, among them the 10,000 men of the British Auxiliary Legion, an arm of Palmerston's foreign policy supporting the liberal Cristino cause and the young Queen Isabella II against her uncle, Don Carlos, pretender to the throne. With the Foreign Enlistment Act suspended in 1835, troops were recruited in Britain and Ireland to fight in a savage struggle. Ill-paid, poorly supplied and inadequately accommodated in appalling weather, the Legion suffered heavy mortality from typhus, yet fought bravely in battle, contributing to an eventual Cristino victory. Ireland played a prominent role in the Legion with four designated Irish regiments and many more men serving in other units. The involvement of an O'Connell ancestor, a young Irish doctor from Co. Limerick, in the First Carlist War, sparked Dr Brett's interest. His own semi-retirement from medicine has allowed him to pursue the subject in greater detail. The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8 Reviews I have researched this song BEFORE I SANG IT |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:49 PM Please read my "scholarship" more carefully. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 12 Sep 23 - 02:30 AM The UK was fighting the king of Spain,which is what the song is about If your mean at some other time, eg 1817 to 18, your post is not very clear, as you then make a reference to the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:18 AM Given its provenance - Colm O'Lochlainn used Kennedy extensively, the setting and the wording, The most likely background is that of the First Carlist War and the George De Lacey-Evans Expedition. I've discussed this with the prominent Wexford singer and researcher, Paddy Berry over the last several years. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 12 Sep 23 - 09:25 AM Kennedy must have known that Britain supported the Spanish king in the Peninsular War, making it a considerable blunder to drop a song about fighting the King of Spain in the 1830s into the context of 1817 or so. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:44 AM So lloyd is not the only scholar to make a mistake., whether the mistake was deliberate or accidental we do not know, a misprint also creates confusion in this case, it is not moneymore |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 13 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM FWIW, Britain also opposed Spain in most of the Coalition Wars (1792-1815), which might also have provided impetus for the ballad. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST Date: 14 Sep 23 - 02:36 AM might and might not |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:22 AM The song is from North County Wexford. The Barony of Bantry, in the County of Wexford was in place as far back as 1672. Moneyhore is a townland in the Barony of Bantry and was the home of Thomas Cloney, one of the leaders of the 1798 rebellion. Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Ireland, 1837 identifies Moneyhore as a place where cattle fairs 'are held at Moneyhore on the 25th of Feb., March, and May, on Oct. 2nd, and Dec. 7th; four of these are held by patent, for which a fee of 15s. per ann. is paid to the Crown by Mr. Wm. Condon, of Dublin.' Faction fighting and at least one death, are reported as occurring at the fairs. The first printed version of the song is in a readily available book by Patrick Kennedy titled 'The Banks of the Boro : a chronicle of the County of Wexford'. According to the author, the book relates events that took place in 1817/18. One of the characters in the book sings the song. The manuscript of the book, again according to the author's preface, was completed in 1856. The book appears to have been published in 1869. The words of the song have been altered a little along the way. This includes the modernisation of archaic words such as 'pathriarchs ' and 'bekase'. (Personally, I prefer to sing the song in as original a version as is available, and I like the selling of the corn and the washing of the sheep). I agree with Dave Rowlands, who is a considerable expert in military history, about the origins of the song being in the Carlist war period (see above). This is obviously after the 1817/18 period that Kennedy states he is relating. More likely, Kennedy heard the song, or possibly even wrote the song, much closer to 1856 when he claims to have completed the manuscript. The 'dirty King of Spain' is a fairly clear reference to the 'Carlist pretender' to the throne, as opposed to the Spanish Queen. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,Gabriel Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:35 AM As above (from me, Gabriel Scally) the lyrics as given in the earliest recognised text that I have located, are as follows: O who will plough the field, or who will sell the corn? O who will wash the sheep, an' have 'em nicely shorn? The stack that's on the haggard, unthrashed it may remain Since Johnny went a-thrashing the dirty King o’ Spain The girls from the bawnoge in sorrow may retire And the piper and his bellows may go home and blow the fire For Johnny, lovely Johnny, is sailin’ o'er the main Along with other pathriarchs, to fight the King o' Spain The boys will sorely miss him when Moneyhore comes round And grieve that their bould captain is nowhere to be found The peelers must stand idle against their will and grain For the valiant boy who gave them work now peels the King o' Spain At wakes and hurling matches your like we'll never see Till you come back again to us a-stóir grádh geal mo-chroídhe And won't you throunce the buckeens that shows us much disdain Bekase our eyes are not as black as those you'll meet in Spain If cruel fate will not permit our Johnny to return His heavy loss we Bantry girls will never cease to mourn We'll resign ourselves to our sad lot, and die in grief and pain Since Johnny died for Ireland's pride in the foreign land o’ Spain |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM The song is generally reckoned tp be from co Wexford, Carlist War of 1833–39? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:54 PM Moneyhore Townland, Co. Wexford https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9Jzy_JxrSfo |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:29 PM When King Ferdinand VII of Spain died in 1833, his widow, Queen Maria Cristina, became regent on behalf of their two-year-old daughter Queen IsabellA lighter you are wrong the uk was not supporting the king of spain your scholarship is wrong ,there is no 'of course. The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8 Edward M. Brett Hardback €49.50 Catalogue Price: €55.00 ISBN: 1-85182-915-6 May 2005. 208pp; ills. The two Carlist wars are probably the least remembered, outside Spain, of the civil conflicts of the country. In the first of these, as in 1936, foreign volunteers fought on both sides, among them the 10,000 men of the British Auxiliary Legion, an arm of Palmerston's foreign policy supporting the liberal Cristino cause and the young Queen Isabella II against her uncle, Don Carlos, pretender to the throne. With the Foreign Enlistment Act suspended in 1835, troops were recruited in Britain and Ireland to fight in a savage struggle. Ill-paid, poorly supplied and inadequately accommodated in appalling weather, the Legion suffered heavy mortality from typhus, yet fought bravely in battle, contributing to an eventual Cristino victory. Ireland played a prominent role in the Legion with four designated Irish regiments and many more men serving in other units. The involvement of an O'Connell ancestor, a young Irish doctor from Co. Limerick, in the First Carlist War, sparked Dr Brett's interest. His own semi-retirement from medicine has allowed him to pursue the subject in greater detail. The British Auxiliary Legion in the First Carlist War, 1835–8 Reviews I have researched this song BEFORE I SANG IT |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 12 Sep 23 - 02:30 AM The UK was fighting the king of Spain,which is what the song is about If your mean at some other time, eg 1817 to 18, your post is not very clear, as you then make a reference to the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:18 AM Given its provenance - Colm O'Lochlainn used Kennedy extensively, the setting and the wording, The most likely background is that of the First Carlist War and the George De Lacey-Evans Expedition. I've discussed this with the prominent Wexford singer and researcher, Paddy Berry over the last several years. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST,RJM Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:44 AM So lloyd is not the only scholar to make a mistake., whether the mistake was deliberate or accidental we do not know, a misprint also creates confusion in this case, it is not moneymore |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: GUEST Date: 14 Sep 23 - 02:36 AM might and might not |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:40 PM Nice find, Gabriel. The song appeared a little earlier in Kennedy's article "Irish Harvest Homes and Their Minstrelsy Fifty Years Since," in the Dublin University Magazine (Dec., 1863). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 11 Sep 23 - 03:06 PM Kennedy places the song in 1817-18. If correct, that would make it a relic of the Peninsular War. Of curse, the UK was supporting, not fighting the "King of Spain" at that time, but the reference in the song might just be meant to suggest the speaker's provincial naivete'. Historically, the King of Spain would more likely be an adversary than an ally. As usual, there's no proof either way. (Oxford shows the word "peeler" to have been in use by 1816 in reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary.) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:49 PM Please read my "scholarship" more carefully. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 12 Sep 23 - 09:25 AM Kennedy must have known that Britain supported the Spanish king in the Peninsular War, making it a considerable blunder to drop a song about fighting the King of Spain in the 1830s into the context of 1817 or so. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Bantry Girl's Lament From: Lighter Date: 13 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM FWIW, Britain also opposed Spain in most of the Coalition Wars (1792-1815), which might also have provided impetus for the ballad. |
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