BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love

Subject: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:30 AM

It has been more than a week since Cindy Sheehan came to Crawford, Texas to ask President Bush what was the noble cause in Iraq that took her 24 year old son's life.

It would have been so easy for President Bush to take 30 minutes or so of his time during his 5 week long vaction to pay his respects to a grieving mother whose son died in the war he started. Instead, George Bush has attended at least one political fund raiser, has gone bicycle riding, gone fishing, thrown a pitch at a little league ball game, took naps, and is also reported to have read.

There has been other Mudcat threads about Cindy Sheehan. Among those threads is Cindy Sheehan will be arrested tomorrow

In my opinion, the reason why Cindy Sheehan wasn't arrested at that time was because her request to meet with President Bush has achieved world wide attention from the mass media. I believe that the reason why Cindy Sheehan has become so powerful a symbol of people's concern about the Iraqi war is that she speaks from her role as a loving mother.

Veterans and other concerned citizens have traveled to Crawford, Texas to show their support for Cindy. Other mothers, fathers, and relatives whose sons or daughters died in Iraq have aslo joined with Cindy in Crawford, Texas. They are still waiting to ask George Bush why their children died in this preemptive war.

This thread provides another opportunity to post your opinions and the lastest news about Cindy Sheehan.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM

Pre-emption implies that one is acting to forestall a threat or avoid an attack from others. What was this one intended to pre-empt? (An awful neologism).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:56 AM

Other mothers, fathers, and relatives whose sons or daughters died in Iraq have aslo joined with Cindy in Crawford, Texas. They are still waiting to ask George Bush why their children died in this preemptive war.

Could it be because they are victims of Pres Bush, who is at present the world's most powerful serial bully?

That's an excellent article from the UK about "serial bullies", imo. I'd like to make it required reading for all voters before they cast their ballots, nad for all "seekers" considering embarking on an unfamiliar 'spiritual path' under the wing of a so-called 'guru' too. From the article:

"Projection

Bullies project their inadequacies, shortcomings, behaviours etc on to other people to avoid facing up to their inadequacy and doing something about it (learning about oneself can be painful), and to distract and divert attention away from themselves and their inadequacies. Projection is achieved through blame, criticism and allegation; once you realise this, every criticism, allegation etc that the bully makes about their target is actually an admission or revelation about themselves. This knowledge can be used to perceive the bully's own misdemeanours; for instance, when the allegations are of financial or sexual impropriety, it is likely that the bully has committed these acts; when the bully makes an allegation of abuse (such allegations tend to be vague and non-specific), it is likely to be the bully who has committed the abuse. When the bully makes allegations of, say, "cowardice" or "negative attitude" it is the bully who is a coward or has a negative attitude."

Replace the word "bully" with Pres Bush, and "other people" with his various targets (Iraqis, Koreans etc). I'm sure you'll see what I mean!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,daylia
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:57 AM

GUEST above is me. Forgot to sign in (again!)

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: tarheel
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:26 AM

cindy sheehan is not a loving mother!
if she was,she'd have more respect for her son's heroic demise in the service of his country...after all he volunteered for his role in the military because he thought it was the right thing to do!
cindy met with the president once and now this hounding,and harrassment venture of hers is to only obtain more publicity for her and to give the liberal media a chance to make her front page news,now that washington, is ho-hum news,with the president at home on vacation!
who do you think is paying her bills?...no need to answer that because we all know it's the liberal media!
and...one more thing,now that we know the clinton administration knew in advance that the 911 culprits were in this country during his tenure in the white house and did nothing about it...where are the demonstrators to accuse bill clinton of killing their loved ones at the world trade center?
shame on cindy sheehan! president bush no more killed her son(as she says he did)than any other president,since george washinton,that has sent troops to war to protect the freedoms that we enjoy in our country!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:17 AM

Oh, bullshit, tarheel. She has practically no expenses. She's living in a goddamned tent asking Bush for a short meeting. He could have stepped out of his fat limo on his way to that damn barbecue and calle dher over for five minutes and it owuld have been a complete PR coup for him. What the hell do you think he is so afraid of?

And, just by the way, what do you think Bush's little war is protecting us from exactly? Saddam's nukes?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:18 AM

How many more young Americans are the Cindy-Sheehan bashers prepared to kill to postpone their need to admit they were taken in by Bush's lies and that the war was a mistake?

John Kerry asked of Vietnam, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" If the Iraq War is based on lies, it leaves us with the conundrum, is it better to ask someone to die for a mistake or to die for a lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:30 AM

Tarheel - Whenever the words "We all know" are used there's a darn good chance that someone is clueless.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:48 AM

See this letter from the Arizona Republic Online Edition

Cindy Sheehan's protest is heroic

Aug. 15, 2005 12:00 AM

When a lone Chinese protester faced down a tank in Tiananmen Square, the world applauded him as a hero. He stood up to an evil government in the full view of the world.

Why should we not treat Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a soldier killed in Iraq who is protesting outside President Bush's Texas ranch, the same way?

There is no one finer than the American fighting man and woman. They have selflessly gone wherever ordered, whenever ordered to do so by their commander in chief.

To send these noble military personnel to a place we do not belong, for reasons that never existed - which is what George W. Bush has done - is to abuse their good will and the patriotism of our military.

On top of that, Bush has done everything in his power to minimize any personalization or honoring of their losses. He brings bodies home in the dark of night and tries to distract our attention from their deaths.

Godspeed to Cindy Sheehan and to all the other families of lost servicemen and women, and honor to their memory. - Don McGuire, Glendale

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 12:01 PM

tarheel, you are pathetic. You are typical of those who, when faced with facts they cannot refute, just make things up. For folks like you it isn't about truth, it is about defending at all costs from anything that threatens your comfort zone. And it appears that folks like you are willing to do it with the lives of our young heroes. Do you remember the "weapons of mass destruction" crap? Isn't that the reason we went to this war? You and the Swift Boat Veterans deserve each other. Why bother with the truth when a lie will do? These brave and patriotic young folks went off to war based on a lie. Their sacrifices continue because we don't know how to extricate them. Like those of us who fought in another war, there is no way for them to come back knowing the world is better for their sacrifice. They will spend years getting over this. I thought we had learned, but obviously not.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 12:20 PM

Ouch, Tarheel!

State a few facts around here and get attacked. I read your post 10 times and can not see whare you were incorrect in your thinking. The facts rile them up everytime;

1. He volumteered
2. She met with GWB already, like hundreds of other have.
3. Clintons' Administration was aware - wait until that comes out.
4. etc.

If he does stop to talk to her again, then he should stop to talk with every protester about anything. What about me with regard to the starvation in Africa? While her Son can't be returned, many lives of African children could be save.
TH, you know you struck a nerve when someone starts their post with "Oh, bullshit".

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 12:41 PM

Same old lines from the same old political script. I remember some folks' knee-jerk defense of Richard Nixon because their looked for 'evidence' to prove their beliefs true rather than looking at the evidence and constantly re-evaluating their beliefs.

This has grown into something huge. This has become the beginning of the end to our war, I think. Something compassionate needed to start it because no one was listening to the shouted slogans and righteous anger gets boring after a while. As the folks reading from their scripts if anyone's listening anymore. Cindy Sheehan comes off as kind and sensible and is inspiring her opposition to act like a bunch of reactionary nuts. I do not think this was a very difficult accomplishment. This protest is different though, because it's got a human face and a human heart. At its heart, it's about one woman with a dead son who is trying very hard to make his death have some meaning.

Even if you don't agree with Cindy Sheehan or what she's doing, how can someone who's never met her say she's 'not a loving mother'? Oh yeah...it's in the script.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 01:45 PM

Yes, he volunteered out of a sense of duty. The fact that that sense of duty was transformed into an ambush in Iraq was not his decision, but the decision of his CiC.

Yes, Bush met her once before, called her "Mom" and showed no sensitivity to her situation.

I'd like to know the specifics about Clinton's administration, what they were aware of when, instead of all this histrionic armwaving from the right.

You are missing the point entirely if you think stopping to talk to her would mean he should necessarily talk to anyone else. That's just specious irrationality. By talking to her he would be speaking indirectly to thousands of people. She is not just "a protester" -- that's just reframing the situation to suit your stupid rhetoric. ANy protest is NOT the same as any other protest. If you can't see the difference between a mourning mother and some random citizen protesting about the fate of children in Africa, you are too blindered to suggest any reasonable viewpoint in this discussion. The differences are important.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: tarheel
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:12 PM

thank you ,guest g...they always jump on me no matter what i say!i'm their "beat up on" guy,in here!!!i've yet to post anything in here that any of them agreed with me,so i am use to it now!...in fact,i love to RILE THEM UP,anymore..hehe hehe hehe ...can't wait to read the responses and see thier little pointed heads all gathered around,after pulling them out of the hole in the sand! then they let me have it till their blood pressures burst!!...he heh hehe heheh
in case they didn't know it,i sure don't loose any sleep over their brainless comments! i just state my feelings,which is what the threads here are all about and i sure do not claim to be a friggin' know it all like these knot heads here!
BTW,cindy sheehan is a disgrace to her son,her family, her community and her state and the U.S.A.!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:16 PM

I agree that "If you can't see the difference between a mourning mother and some random citizen protesting about the fate of children in Africa, you are too blindered to suggest any reasonable viewpoint in this discussion. The differences are important."

I also believe that people can and should be concerned about causes that don't directly affect them.

I'm sure that many people posting here are concerned about starvation in Africa and the war in Iraq. After all, we can multi-task, and one concern does not cancel out the other.

Yet, this request for a meeting with Bush [which, in my opinion, is more a vigil than a protest] is different because it comes at a time when this war is so obviously failing. The mission has not been accomplished as Bush had announced many months ago, and people don't know anymore why the heck we are there.

Furthermore, this request for a meeting with Bush is different because the person requesting it is a mother who paid the ultimate sacrifice of price losing her son in this war-a sacrifice to loving mothers that can be much worse than their own death.

And the reason why this meeting with Bush is different because it occurs during his annual five week long summer vacation. Five weeks!!!!! How many other people have five weeks vacation with pay????? Have any other presidents taking that long of a vacation-and during war? And who is in charge of the government while Bush is on vacation? [Maybe it's the same group of people who are in charge when Bush is in Washington, D.C.]

I can't believe that President Bush or his 'advisors' don't see that continuing to refuse to talk to Cindy Sheehan is a public relations fiasco. For that reason if not any other, I suspect that Bush might give Cindy Sheehan a short audience with him soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: tarheel
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:38 PM

HERY AMOS AND BIG MICK!!!!
wanna step outside for a moment and tell me all those curse words to my face?it takes a small man to use BIG curse words at members in here!
tar...

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 03:52 PM

Tarheel:

I do apologize for the roughness of my language in response to your first post here. My rancor was not directed to you; as I have expressed before, I have every respect for you, as a musician, and as a regular citizen of our wide-ranging community here.

I do think it is a litttle short-sighted of you to accuse me of not coming into chat and "hiding out in the threads". I at least do not call you names behind your back or accuse you of being a mighty small person to others when you are absent.

What I think is "small" is promoting violence, pretence, sanctimony and mindless compliance with ill-informed and unthinking leadership. These traits made sad fools out of the Japanese citizens, and the German citizens, and prior to them has made fools out of all kinds of people on all sides of every major unnecessary conflict. IF there is ANYTHING that a wise and thinking citizen should abhor it is unnecessary use of violence, because of the ruin it brings to all sides.

You have elected to support violence that was not necessary, because it is backed with a shallow, windy authority. I have chosen not to. You and I disagree. With all due respect, I suggest we not take it personally and be big enough to simply agree that we take different views. I have spoken my feelings using the same personal freedoms that you have used to speak yours. While I disagree with your thinking, I will never attack or undermine your right to voice that thinking freely, although I may disparage the reasoning behind it.

That's the risk and the reward of being free citizens of a great nation, you and I. I think it can be made greater without unnecessary war-faring than it can with.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 04:07 PM

Amos, et al If this woman was not ranting and raving about Israel being part of the world terriost problem (she believes the US is the other half, she might attract a few more followers. Were you there when GWB spoke with her? How would you know if was any sensitvity or not?

One other point, and it is not due to me taking to heart ANYTHING you might say Amos, but why can't you reply to commentary without using an attack format?
I am not irrational nor blindered. It appears to me you are trying to get the President down to your level which is appearing to be one of hatred combined with a false appearance of knowing the facts.
If the President, now matter who he might be, stops to that level, then I too shall work to get him out of office.

Why not answer the comments in the posts, not resort to attacks as you can see, that is easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM

IF nothing I say is going to touch you in anyway, nameless One, I see no point in addressing the issues you raise.

I asserted that if you could not see the difference between two things (which you asserted were equivalent) then you were too blindered to be able to speak with intelligence and discrimination. That makes perfect sense to me -- the ability to differentiate between things which are similar in som ewayis a critical part of intelligence.

There are specific and factual reasons behind each adjective I use when describing the President; he has made choices or demonstrated behaviors which support every one of them; subliteracy, proneness to violence, unthinking, ill-prepared, and so on.

If there are some I have used you feel are unfounded, take the trouble to specify.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 06:10 PM

I don't think that "tarheel is a disgrace to the mudcat, his community and his state and the USA"- but I do think his using that phrase to describe Cindy Sheehan is a shameful bit of parroting. I believe that he has a right to air his views (God. I wish he'd air them enough to make them palatable.) but I also think that his thinking along with that of others of the subset he belongs to is the major reason for the mess this country is in. And Guest, G, if you don't see tarhee's problem, you're just as uninformed, blinkered and shortsighted as he.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM

Guest:

Tarheel is a bona fide musician and a member of the Mudcat of long standing. He has exercised his God-given right to have an opinion and to voice it. In that respect he is no disgrace to anyone. THe merit of his conclusions may be in question, but there is no disgrace in having opinions as such.

I feel his reasoning has flaws in it, and he feels the same way about mine, but how can you dare try to embarrass him into not communicating?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 07:39 PM

But he doesn't know where the shift key is kept on his keyboard...

I find I see posts that that as inducing the same kind of alienating and diminishing effect as when people writing letters to the editor or whatever use green ink.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:33 PM

I just logged on to apologize for my "pathetic" comment. I found a PM from tarheel objecting to it. Let me say that I regret starting with that comment, it was a knee jerk reaction to what I read. My apology for that phrase is sincere.

Tarheel may be a member of longstanding, but that does not set him above being held accountable for what he says. His comments about this mother being a "disgrace to her son,her family, her community and her state and the U.S.A.!" show him to be a poor spokeman for the cause he espouses. This woman has suffered a loss that no Mother or parent should suffer. This loss was caused directly by the war started on false pretense by this President. While we can argue about the merits of the war, there is no argument that the demon that drives this woman is the loss of her son. She believes that she is honoring his memory. Call her misguided, Tarheel, and I respect your viewpoint. Call her a disgrace to her son's memory and I have no respect for your viewpoint. In fact I find it disgusting.

On a separate issue, why the need to parrot the administration viewpoint? No valid thoughts on the issue of your own?

As to your offer to say these things to your face, I would hope that if we are ever in the same room, you will identify yourself. I will gladly repeat each and every one of them. You may then react with intellect and debate, or you may react in the way your post implies. I am more than willing and capable of responding to whichever you use.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:03 AM

Is tarheel a parent? Has he got a son of "military age" [what a sick expression]? If so, may I put a question? Would he, if blessed with such second sight, patriotically encourage his son to support his president and join this "war" in Iraq if he knew without question that his son was going to his death? Or would he be a parent worthy of the name and do all he could to dissuade his son from taking such a course? Or would he, as others so pathetically do, step forward proudly after the end of his boy's life, and insist that his "son died for freedom"? What "freedom"? Whose "freedom"?
It is likely that tarheel has no such son. If he has, may the lad beware;Bush wants him.
   There ARE causes worth fighting to the death for; the neocons' "war" doesn't come within a trillion miles....

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,kirsten
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:38 AM

Soldiers With Peace Activist Parents to Wear Special Uniforms in War
By Kirsten Anderberg (www.kirstenanderberg.com)

There have been a lot of parents of fallen U.S. soldiers recently in the press. The way they act is as if their sons should not have been killed in the war because they are peace activists. News flash to these parents: Your kids look just like the rest of the occupying enemy in Iraq. Kids whose parents are "peace activists" do not have special colored clothing that signals their parents are peace activists to the fighters in Iraq. And what good *is* your peace activism, if you simultaneously send your kids to war? Do these peace activist parents not realize that the first line of peace activism is in your own HOME? Get off those overpasses with peace signs and get into your kid's life if he is enlisting in the armed services! Do these peace activist parents not realize that it was their son or some other person's son? And their son was the invader? The game is war, and the aim is to kill. Why are they all of a sudden just now getting the gravity of the situation?

Is it that these people did not care about others dying until their kids died? Why did they let their kids go? I know it sounds terrible, but I would literally break my son's legs before I would let him leave to Iraq to kill some other mother's little boy. I would rather go to jail and break his legs, than to allow him to go to war and come home dead, after killing others. I don't care about this "free will" argument. There are certain parental responsibilities here. There is a traditional war song in America that goes, "I didn't raise my boy to be a soldier, I brought him up to be my pride and joy, who dares to place a musket on his shoulder, to shoot some other mother's little boy? Let nations arbitrate their future troubles, it's time to throw the sword and gun away. There'd be no war today, if mothers all would say, I didn't raise my boy to be a soldier."

There is this whole tough love/"brat camp" movement in America where "liberal" parents are somehow willing to intervene in their kids' lives against their wills when drugs are involved. Yet when it comes to their kids making the biggest and deadliest mistake of their life, joining the U.S. military to support a hostile illegal occupation in Iraq, they have a hands off policy. If you are a "peace activist" parent who would be willing to do an intervention on your kids over drugs, but would not do the same if he tried to enlist in the military, that is on your family's head, but it makes no sense to me.

I feel that the woman camping outside the president's ranch right now is mostly concerned with relieving her guilt, not in stopping the war. If she cared about stopping the war, she would not have provided the military with soldiers. And she would have protested as vehemently BEFORE her son was dead. We are now listing about 2,000 American soldiers dead from our illegal occupation of Iraq on the American nightly news. Yet the amount of Iraqi soldiers, children, and mothers, that we, Americans, have killed in Iraq is exponentially higher. For every sobbing white peace activist mom in America, there are hundreds of sobbing mothers in Iraq, and they ain't getting the press the woman at the president's ranch is right now.

There is a certain air of white middle class privilege about her protest at the president's ranch right now too. What mother in poverty could afford such an action? I believe if she was a welfare mom who just lost her son, she could not afford to sit at the president's ranch like that. Would she bring her other kids with her to the protest? How long do you think it would take for Child Protective Services to show up at her encampment if she was there with her young kids? And who is paying for her sitting there? Has she quit her job to do this? How does she eat while she is not working? Who is paying her rent as she sits outside Bush's ranch? Is she now risking homelessness, unemployment and the loss of her other kids to do this protest as a welfare mom would? I sense money and sustaining this protest never entered her mind. I sense nothing in her life is in jeopardy from this action, and she can sit there as long as she wants because she is from the middle class.

I also believe it is because she is white and middle class that she has not been arrested. I honestly believe if that was a poor black woman agitating for Bush to see her, she would have been forcibly removed by violent cops already. I think the reason they are letting her stay there, with all the press is 1) she is not perceived as a threat due to her class and race, and 2) she already has shown she will send her kids to war while simultaneously saying she is a peace activist and that is what the government WANTS so they see no threat in her at all. They see, as well as do I, the totally hypocritical stance she has taken, and look at it more with amusement than a need for defense against it.

Peace activists who send their kids to war are now acting shocked that death could come to their child! Somehow they had believed it could not happen to them, just like teenagers who feel they can do any stupid trick and survive because they are immortal. If you supported murder as your son's profession, and he comes back killed by others who also have killing as their profession, can you really expect sympathy? Is it really shocking that American soldiers are killed in a hostile occupation of Iraq? Isn't that what they are there for? To kill or be killed? That is why my son can't go to the Iraq war. I will not allow it in our family. I am not willing to let him kill others and to only launch an outcry once mine is dead. I am willing to put up a stink before my kid is dead in this war. And I am willing to stand up against the government taking my draft aged son as well. But to just hand over your son, giving him support in his choice to be a soldier in Iraq, while still claiming you are a "peace activist" is ridiculous. The first thing peace activists should be doing is keeping their own kids out of the military! That seems incredibly obvious. And to not do so, and only cry out once your child is dead, well, that is just too little too late, as utterly callous as that sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM

Well said, Kirsten. I hope some will read and reread your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:23 AM

I think to be fair you should remember that she begged her son not to go into the military, and offered to take him to Canada.

She did not send him, as your rhetoric implies.

Parental responsibility changes dramatically when a human being becomes of age; to try and control another adult's life other than by providing what wisdom one can is tricky and almost impossible in some cases. I would hazard a guess, Kirsten, that you have not raised a child to adulthood.

We don't raise our children to be things, but to be alive, well, as competent and intelligent as possible, to be endowed with the skills we can teachthem. Anything more particular than that is to deny the individual his own life's path, which often has little or nothing to do with your wishes, and is pretty much of a crapshoot anyway.

OF course she has some guilt and wishes she had thought of something to do to stop him from going to war. At least she is doing something to stop others from having to, little though it is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:37 AM

The attacks against Mrs. Sheehan are abnormally viscious.

By planting a post that seemed to invite criticism of Cindy Shehan I brought the worst of the worst out of the woodwork...
http://p080.ezboard.com/fpoliticsofthepeoplefrm1.showMessage?topicID=7500.topic

What will happen to her is anyone's guess. Will she earn a place on the no fly list? Will she be evicted by local authorities? Will the Texas unwritten law of "she had it comin" come into play? Will squemish Democratic leaders deny her like the apostles before a cruxifiction?

That she used the word fascist to exemplify the administration was courageous and correct.

That she is now called a "liberal whore" is not much different from being called a dirty Jew in the early days of Germany's NSP.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 09:47 AM

Perhaps GWB could enact a law prohibiting protests within a given area surrounding his ranch, in much the same way as the UK government has round our parliament because their consciences pricked them every time thay had to pass a man making a justified protest in Parliament Square.
As far as the 5 weeks vacation in a time of conflict is concerned, again GWB may be taking lessons from Tony Blair who was so bloody immature as to refuse to break his holiday to go the the funeral of a great Socialist called Robin Cook.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:17 AM

After reading Kirsten's post, I also wondered if she had raised any children to be adults. If so, I don't think her comments would be the same.

****

Kirsten, I take exception to your comments about race & poverty in and the Cindy Sheehan vigil. If I understood you correctly, you wrote that if a Black woman were to 'pull a Cindy' [i.e. camp outside the president's vacation home in an effort to meet with him to ask him why her child died in his war], she would be poor, with no saved to support her while she 'protested', and therefore she would lose her low wage job...Also, I gathered from your comments that this hypothetical Black "Cindy Sheehan" would have to bring her other underaged children along and those children would then be in danger of being taken from her by child welfare department [that is to say they would be more in danger of this response than any underage White children would be].

I'm sure that Kirsten must know that there are African Americans who are very economically well off and there are African Americans who have the financial resources to take a month's vacation with or without pay to do what they feel is important to do.

Also, Black folks do have families who would be willing to take care of their under age children if they decided to do something that might get ugly [as I pray won't happen with Cindy Sheehan's vigil].

So okay I get that Kirsten is being hypothetical-What if Cindy Sheehan were Black? Would she be such a powerful symbol of a mother's love [my words] or would she have been allowed to set up her camp, or would she have been quickly arrested and any underage children who she might have brought with her be put under the custody of child welfare?.

My response to these hypthetical questions is remember the press is and Internet bloggers are closely watching and recording what is going on at Camp Casey. If Cindy Sheehan had been Black AND had started the Gold Star Mothers for Peace group AND was a blogger on dailykos and other political websites, and had asked for other parents whose sons and daughters were killed in Iraq to join her in Crawford, and had asked other veterans to join her too, ...if all that were the same and if the police would have done a Rambo on her, then her race might have been a plus factor in the amount of media coverage and public outrage that she [this hypothetical Black Cindy Sheehan] would then receive.

But that's alot of 'ifs'...

Besides, there is an implication that in 2005 the police in Crawford would treat a Black woman and Black children differently than they would treat a White woman and White children. I believe that the presence of the media there watching and recording what is happening would mean that the police couldn't get away with differential treatment based on race, even if they wanted to do so...

And even if individual members of the Crawford, Texas police department don't believe in equality among the races, I would hope that they have been trained to treat any person the same way, regardless of their race or ethnicity...

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one....



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:26 AM

A soldier, sailor, airman or Marine does volunteer to stand in harm's way. (It may be hard to believe, but any person who's at least 18 years old doesn't need a parent's permission to join up.) A volunteer must trust leaders not to squander their life for stupid reasons. These leaders should feel the weight of that decision, because each shattered, bloody body is someone's loved one. We trust them to keep those lives in their hands as safe as possible and spend them as miserly as they'd spend their own. I think one problem that has been made clear is that any appearance of a sense of respect for these warriors' lives beyond empty words, is not important to the current US regime.

There are, I think, two kinds of people in the world. There are those who are inpired by hope and dreams and love and light, and they try to find the good in people and situations and make things better. There are those who are inspired by hatred and anger and disdain, and they look for weaknesses and things to pick apart. They look for reasons to be furious and vengeful, and to shout at people and hurt people. They do these things because...hell, I don't know. Maybe it's the only thing they've learned proves they're here.

Most of us dip into both sides a bit. We can look for things to be angry about and then try to find a way to make life better. Some folks just like staying pissed off though, and some think that gives them an excuse to do stupid stuff. For example, it's obviously OK to drive a truck over symbolic representations of gravestones of the fallen. It's justifiable if the dead, their deaths and their loved ones' tears aren't quite as important to you as your anger and hatred.

Something Ghandi and Martin Luther King demonstrated was that you don't have to try much to defeat hatred. You just resist angry impulses, go on being visibly free of hatred and hate will eventually defeat itself.

And for something completely different: I wonder what the word 'vacation' is euphemizing, because the leader of the free world taking this much time off to just hang out on the ol' ranch really tests the public's gullibility. Even the ones that think Pro Wrestling is a sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:31 AM

A Mother's love so much that her family is disowning her and her husband is divorcing her. (see todays news stories)

a Mother's love that when she first met with Bush they kissed (picure on many websites)

a Mother's love that she stated that Bush was genuinely concerned with the people of Iraq and uplifted her with their meeting

A Mother's love that she has now changed her story 180 degrees and no one in mudcat seems to wonder why.   (you can change your opinion on Bush or the war, but you can't change your opinion on what happended at the first meeting or how she felt when she left the meeting with Bush)

PS- Please check your facts.   Sheehan is not camping out in a tent.   She is camping out in a Motel funded by the left and drives to the site with the reporters for photo ops.   This the eyewittness account of a soldier from Iraq who has just written a new book and met with Sheehan at the motel and went on national radio to report his meeting with Sheehan.   I am surprised at how many of you veteran mudcatters would be taken in by such cheesy photo ops.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:53 AM

Larry K - I will say to you the same thing I said to Tarheel; in my very brief time around this place, I have found that when you use fact(s) as opposed to feeling, you will get hammered. Tarheel ended up being referred to as a disgrace. Of course, both he and you are more aware of this situation than I.

A funny thing, someone named Ebbie (means as much as "G")
went so far as to say if I could not see Tarheels' problem, then I was as "uninformed, shortsighted and blinkered as he is".

How insightful! I never heard of Tarhell until yesterday and have only read two of his posts. I am not a Physic - but I am intelligent enough to see where this type of thinking is rampant here.

Amos did come to Tarheels' defense with regard to his being a human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 11:01 AM

G:

You are mistaken. Tarheel was not hammered for his recitation of facts, but for his reactionary extremist recitation of derogation.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 11:26 AM

Tarheel was hammered for facts - Much info on the 9/11 bombers was available in the late 90s' That is now being expose. Her expenses are being taken care of by several groups. While you may disagree with his his approach, he appears to be no different than anyone else here.
I in no way can percieve her sense of loss when she heard of her Sons' demise. What has transpired between then and now is unknow to me. My regret is that she is becoming a media whore and that soon will be accused of 'tap dancing' on her Sons' grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:44 PM

"PS- Please check your facts.   Sheehan is not camping out in a tent.   She is camping out in a Motel funded by the left and drives to the site with the reporters for photo ops.   This the eyewittness account of a soldier from Iraq who has just written a new book and met with Sheehan at the motel and went on national radio to report his meeting with Sheehan. "

OK, Larry, time to do what you ask others to. Being currently afflicted with the gout, I have the time to do a little reearch, and nothing you have stated in this last paragraph appears in any news source, including some far right Sheehan haters.   

Your sources, please?

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

You may slander her as much as you wish, G, with crude party-line smirches like media whore.

IMO, anyone willing to stand up and be counted against the libertine use of gratuitous violence is on the side of civilization against the most barbarian forces and aberrated thinking of the human race. I cannot see why some people believe so devoutly in the exultation of slaughter and the glorification of warfare, the greatest waste ever invented. Those who promote it are called war-mongers, merchants of destruction. Thus, GWB.

That's my $.02.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:16 PM

I have an idea. We - everybody- is aware that this country is badly splintered, that there are factions that are poles apart.

There are groups in this country right now that are trying to find a common ground for both poles to come together. Until we reach that common ground we cannot see into each other's eyes.

So, let's try this:

* Do we agree that a parent's grief is a subjective thing and that no one else can actually know what the person's feelings are?

* Do we agree that at the end of the day (hate that phrase) each of us lives our lives being grateful for the love and satisfaction that comes to us through our families and friends and, since we are into music, the music in our lives?

* Do we agree that well meaning people may disagree in the perception of a problem and how to address that problem?

Any other ideas on the things that we can agree upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM

From "Commondreams.org":

Vigil Threatens to put President in Tough Spot
By Marc Sandalow

WASHINGTON - A grieving Northern California mother's vigil near President Bush's Texas ranch is putting a human face on the toll of the Iraq war as she brings worldwide attention to her anguish.

Cindy Sheehan of Vacaville began camping in a ditch along the road leading to Crawford, Texas, on Saturday, determined to confront Bush over the death of her son Casey, a 24-year-old Army specialist who was killed in Sadr City on April 4, 2004.



Cindy Sheehan with Bill Mitchell at a Crawford, Texas, vigil. Both have lost sons in the fighting in Iraq.
(Jason Reed / Reuters)

That a grieving woman seeks to speak to the president or that she opposes the war is hardly news as the war rages in its third year. But the image of an anguished 48-year-old mother standing outside the vacation home of the most powerful leader in the world, asking him to explain her son's death, is compelling and has caught the attention of millions of people from Canada to New Zealand.

For Bush, Sheehan's presence seems to create a no-win situation.

If he invites her to talk, he further elevates her protest, potentially angers the other families of the more than 1,850 Americans who have died in Iraq and provides Sheehan a greater forum to spread her anti-war views.

If he ignores her, he risks appearing so callous that he doesn't have the time, or the inclination, to spend a few minutes of his vacation with a mother who lost her son as a direct consequence of the president's foreign policy decisions.

Bush dispatched national security adviser Steve Hadley and Deputy Chief of Staff Joe Hagin to talk with Sheehan on Saturday -- a step Sheehan said was insufficient -- but has shown no willingness to invite her to the ranch. White House aides left reporters in Crawford with no sense that they were considering such a meeting.

Sheehan, who took shelter in a nearby motel Tuesday night after rain and lightning threatened her tent, said she will remain in Crawford through August unless she gets a "good'' meeting with the president or is arrested.

Fascination with the story is growing among the dozens of Washington journalists assigned to follow Bush in Crawford with little else to do, as well as among an ever-growing Internet audience. The Web site Technorati.com, which monitors Web logs, listed "Cindy Sheehan'' as its most frequently requested search.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and other members of Bush's foreign policy team gathering in Crawford this morning must either helicopter to Bush's ranch or drive directly past Sheehan's encampment, where scores of supporters and reporters will be watching.

"Cindy is making history. She is also leading a movement,'' said Bob Fertik of Democrats.com, who helped Sheehan create the Web site: meetwithcindy. org.

Almost as quickly as Sheehan has been idealized by war opponents, she has been demonized by some war supporters, who consider her a pawn of the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM

AN excerpt in her own words, from a letter to the press from Cindy Sheehan:


"I was on the Night Line Townhall Meeting in Washington, DC on 01/27/05. After I spoke (which I think was a fluke), Ted Koppel dismissed me as being "emotional." First of all, how can I approach this discussion without emotions, MY SON WAS KILLED, AND KILLED FOR LIES? Second of all, that show was not fair and balanced and I think the conclusion "Should we stay" was foregone.


The show last night was also not fair and balanced. To see all the wives being interviewed who had not lost their husbands and to hear what "hard work" it is to be left behind when their husbands are at war. How hard to you think it is to have a child killed in an illegal and immoral war? In this "wonderful" group of families left behind, we had exactly ONE of the wives call us..she is Diane Rose who was my son's Colonel, Frank Rose's wife. The last time we heard from Diane was in October and we feel we have been left behind by anyone connected to the 2-5 Cavalry. Is support only given if your loved one stays alive? One wife was quoted as saying that Sundays were the hardest for the families left behind. My son was killed on Palm Sunday last year..how does anybody think Sundays are for my family?


A distraught father who lost his son was shown telling how much his life was so adversely affected. Why wasn't a mother (like me) who has been an outspoken critic of this war and of the President's policies interviewed for this piece? Why wasn't I given a chance to talk about 04/04/04 and the series of lies, mistakes and miscalculations that led to my precious oldest child's death??


General Chiarelli was quoted as saying that 04/04/04 was a "wake up" call to the 2-5 Cavalry. If he thinks it was a "wake up" call, let me tell you how having 3 Army officers come to my door on 04/04/04 and tell me that my darling son was KIA. I have learned so many details of that day and of my son's experience in Iraq.


The very first thing that went wrong happened in November at Ft Irwin, California...the 2-5 Cavalry went for desert training. They received open desert warfare training and my son was killed in an urban guerilla attack, which he hadn't been trained for. Also, he was wearing an inadequate helmet and a Vietnam era flak jacket. Casey was stationed in a very dangerous place, like the General said: FOB War Eagle. I have subsequently learned that the soldiers of the 2-5 Cav who were stationed outside of Baghdad had Kevlar body armor. I have also found out that Casey slept in the back of his Humvee for the last 2 weeks of his life because there wasn't any room on post for him to have a cot. How tired and overworked was he before he went into that battle on 04/04/04?


In addition, my son was killed after L. Paul Bremer inflamed the Shi'a by taking away their tv station and newspapers. The Abu Ghraib scandal was about to break in America...but it was well known by the Iraqi people that their citizens were being tortured and defiled in the prisons. My son was a sitting duck by the time 04/04/04 rolled around.


The very worst thing of all, is that my son was sent to rescue some fellow soldiers trapped in an ambush in the back of a LMTV..which is basically an open air trailer. It would be the equivalent of driving through Dallas on 11/22/63 in a Convertible. The troops stationed at FOB War Eagle were sent ahead of their tanks and Bradleys!!! They had to go into battle in the back of LMTV's and non-armored Humvees. This is just proof to me that our troops are as important to their leaders as bullets are. It is a small miracle that only 7 of them were killed in the ambush. Luckily for the rest of the moms, it was dark. After my son's murder, there was an article in Stars and Stripes that quoted one of Casey's superior officers as saying. "04 April taught us a lesson. We won't send soldiers to battle without their armor any more." How do you think that made me feel? It was like "OOOPS, your dear son was killed. Life happens. Oh well, you live and learn." The General was also quoted as saying that the insurgency "surprised" them. Why? Has there ever been an invasion/occupation of a sovereign country that hasn't been resisted? Anyone with half a brain and an even rudimentary understanding of history would know that all occupations are resisted. The Pentagon and the Army brass did not plan adequately for an occupation.


Then Gen. Chiarelli said the thing that upset me the most. He said that the loss of life was terrible, but at least Iraqis had elections on 01/30/05. With the continuuing insurgency and with Iraqis and Americans losing their lives everyday there, how can he be proud of that? I may remind you and the General, that Iraqi elections was not the reason that our President and his Neo-Con war mongers invaded Iraq with our precious human resources. I will give the two reasons given for the invaseion here: Saddam had WMD's and he was an imminent threat to America. Saddam could have WMD's on our shores within 45 minutes. Condoleeza Rice used fear as a factor when she said: Don't let the smoking gun be a mushroom cloud. Rumsfeld and Colin Powell pointed out to us where the weapons were on a map.
..."

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:27 PM

I haven't been able to get any specific dates on the separation and filing for divorce scenario, but it looks to me from the contents of this article...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_re_us/peace_mom

...that she and her husband had separated as a result of the stress arising from Casey's death, and that it happened before she started camping out near the Bush ranch.

So that would make at least one of tar_heel's "facts" more vicious gossip than "fact". This does seem to be the pattern of the people who are criticizing her. Use vicious gossip, inuendo, slurs and invective in an attempt to bring her down because morally and ethically, they don't have a leg to stand on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:32 PM

powerful

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:38 PM

My final foray here for a few days. Usually can only do a couple days, every couple of hours in th mornings.

No defense of myself, Amos, but I was not slandering her. I said I regret - she has been referred to a media wh... on more than show, and implied on many others.

One other thing; your 1:19 PM post from Commondreams.org and an article written by Mark Sandalow and another by Jason Reed. I have never heard of either writer nor have I heard of the Blog.
This is a Democratic view and not of all Democrats. It just does not make sense to seek out, read and post that which meets ones fancy.

While I may be able to see a reason for Iraq, and don't single this out as our main problem in our world, as I have read a lot of history as I am sure you have and we are just one big morass of warring and killing since the world came about. I can nowhere find a story regarding this conflict that I can completely agree with.
1.e., being careful not to damage the Mosques being used by the insurgents as foxholes. With my limited knowledge, even I know that a 500 pound would work on them as well as a government building. Why, you may ask? To save the lives of American troops. Religion has nothing to do with it. We learned to do that in WW2 when the Germans occupied the churches. The first thing the tanks did upon reaching a town was shell the steeples.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:53 PM

Thanks for the clarification, G. SOrry if I was a bit brusque.

we are just one big morass of warring and killing

Well, do we wish to continue as such? Or is there such as thing as improving human life?

I suggest that better social designs, better reciprocal understanding and dialogue, and better technology can move civilization to better conditions. Conditions do not have to be endlessly bestial and barbaric. Apathy about the past is a weak excuse to surrender the future.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:03 PM

From SFGate, a San Francisco e-new website:

"IT WOULD be easy to dismiss Cindy Sheehan's protest in Crawford, Texas, against the U.S. invasion of Iraq as one woman's response to the death of her soldier son in Iraq.

But the scrappy protest of the Vacaville mother could be the catalytic event that might help build a significant movement against the war.

Opinion polls show widespread opposition to the war, and to Bush's conduct in promoting it. Peculiarly, this unhappiness has yet to translate into anything that could be called an anti-war "movement."

But remember that it took several years before opposition to the Vietnam War began to congeal into what we now call the "movement" against that disastrous war.

In hindsight, demonstrations, such as the one outside the Oakland Army Terminal in April 1965, the departure point for many troops to Vietnam, and the march on the Pentagon in October 1967, were key events in motivating national opposition to that distant war.

Sheehan's campaign may one day be viewed in a similar light.

Some conservatives, including talk-show host Bill O'Reilly, are now desperately trying to discredit her. They're calling her actions treasonous, or implying as much.

But Sheehan is no "Hanoi Jane" Fonda. As a distraught mother with no ties to traditional anti-war organizations, she won't be as easily tarred.

What she is doing, at great personal cost, is piercing the comforting cloak of secrecy thrown up by U.S. authorities that has shielded most Americans from awareness of the full human cost of the Iraq engagement. ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:42 PM

A current interview with Cindy Sheehan clarifies what she believes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: tarheel
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:48 PM

Guest Boab...yes,i am a parent! i will soon be 69 years of age!
i have been married to my wife peg,for 46 yeasrs this past july 23rd!
my daughter and son both joined the U.S.Navy when they finished high school and both aquired training that led them to their respective jobs now!
i also spent 8 years in the U.S.Navy and was honored that my kids joined that branch of service because their dad served his country there!
do not think for one momnent that in did not not feel concerned for them during their service!
geezz,if you can't knock on me as a member of MUDCAT,you now want to beat up on me as a parent!
how dare you!
you are not man enough to be a member here or give your real name so that i could send youi a PM and really tell you what a infidel that you are to critize me and my family!
you do not even know me nor anything about me!
what a coward to say those things about me and my family members!
what's more,i am a conservative and a born again Christain and i am not ashamed to tell you nor anyone else in here about it!
when was the last time that you asked God to forgive you of your sins and put your faith and trust in Him?
what would happen to your soul if you died tonight?
think about it,dear friend!
i demand that you apologize to me and my kids for your derrogatory remark about us!
tar...

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:21 PM

Tar:

Chill, dude! Stop waving your arms around and injecting your private metaphysics into thediscussion. It has no bearing on the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

tarheel, you are doing exactly the same thing to Cindy Sheehan that you are accusing Boab of doing to you. Why is it ok for you to do it and not for Boab to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

Will all the anti-Cindy Mudcatters with kids in Iraq please step forward...