HI Max: What about Shambles requests?

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 02:08 PM

Shambles, what part of what MMario said do you not understand? It is quite clear to most of us that this site belongs to Max. We have NO say in how it is run.

Kendall - It is indeed long been clear that this site belongs to Max and I for one have no wish to have a say in how Max's site is run.

However this is a part of Max's website that he has very generously set aside for invited contributions from the public and called the Mudcat Discussion Forum. I have some agreement - for my reference to this part of Max's site - as our forum. It is from a very unlikely source - and perhaps you would agree with the both of us?

[PM] Joe Offer BS: Censorship on Mudcat (1009* d) RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat 31 Mar 05

Well, I have to agree with Shambles that Max seems to convey the idea that this is "our" forum. However, it also seems quite clear that very few of us want "our" forum to be taken over by those who would wish to make it a place of combat and chaos.

So, Max appointed some of us to try to keep down the worst of the nastiness. We don't do enough to satisfy some people (Clinton Hammond, for example), and we do too much to satisfy Shambles.

So, we continue to stumble along what we see as the middle path, knowing that we will never satisfy everybody. Such is life.

-Joe Offer-

Our forum is certainly not Joe Offer's and it does not say that it is in the FAQ - yet.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: GUEST,Yawn
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 01:06 PM

...it is perfectly clear from the evidence that it would be very unwise to place your trust in these people's ability to do this?

...it is also clear from the evidence - that they are not up to such tasks -

He thinks if he keeps on saying things like this over and over again, that we will start to accept it as fact. The fact is there is NO evidence, and it is NOT perfectly clear - only in his obsessed mind. The rest of us, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - MAX, seem to be quite happy with the job they are doing. If there are any minor problems, most of us are perfectly content to communicate with them privately.

This guy has only one objective - to make trouble for Joe and the Clones. If he really wanted change, he would communicate with Max, but of course he has proved that he has no intention of doing that.

And so it goes on......and on.........and on.............

I could easily stay away from this thread, but there is a kind of morbid fascination in watching - it's rather like watching an infinite loop of film of a train wreck.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:57 PM

Shambles, what part of what MMario said do you not understand? It is quite clear to most of us that this site belongs to Max. We have NO say in how it is run. All we have is the freedom to leave. Enough already!

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM

Well, perhaps some clarification would be useful. Is a volunteer fellow poster the same as a "Joe Clone." Or am I/we somehow being compelled to post? And who really cares who they are and how many of them there are? Or is there some supressed need to compose a song about Joe Offer and the Seven...Nine...Eight-Six...Clones? Should we give them name? After all, most people hear use something other than their real name. How about Bashful, Shy, Anonymouse, Timid, Pseudonomious and so forth? Any maybe, as they are imposing their unrestrained will upon innocent posters, they can change the poster's name to something appropriate.....Grumpy, perhaps?

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:14 PM

1) no one's business except Max's

2) No one's business except Max's

3) Max does not require them to reveal themselves - therefore they don't have to.

perhaps some agreement could also be made about when our forum feels the exercise of such imposition is proportionate and by whom?

The forum has no say in the matter. Nor do the posters on the forum. The site belongs to Max. max has already made the decision by granting the clones the rights to edit.


At the moment our volunteer fellow poster's understanding is - when ever they wish to. I highly doubt it. Evidence? ANY evidence?

Do you consider this to be this proportionate or desirable on our forum? this question has no relavance whatsoever except as a theoretical supposition. Expecially since it is preceeded by several erroneous statements.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

Does anyone wish to answer the following?

1. Who are 'The Clone Department' now?

2. How many of them are there now?

3. Is it really so helpful or proportionate now - for any of these fellow posters to have the choice of being anonymous?


Now that we seem to eventually have some agreement on this thread that the ablity for one poster to anonymously impose their words upon a fellow poster cannot be dismissed as 'minimal' - perhaps some agreement could also be made about when our forum feels the exercise of such imposition is proportionate and by whom?

At the moment our volunteer fellow poster's understanding is - when ever they wish to. Do you consider this to be this proportionate or desirable on our forum?

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: MMario
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:54 AM

And when it is also clear from the evidence What evidence?- that they are not up to such tasks - but when it is also quite clear that they still intend not only to continue to expect that trust - but to insist and demand that trust is given to them?

You miss the entire point again Shambles - the matter of trust is between the volunteers and Max - not the volunteers and the posters. This is Max's site; he chose the people who volunteer their time and efforts - and he is satisfied with their work.

Any other point is moot.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:51 AM

Earth to Roger? Earth to Roger?

We can hear him, but he can't hear us.

Ohmygawd, he's got the hampsters!!!!

J.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:42 AM

It's not about whether a person might care enough or not but whether they can distance feelings enough to do thier duty, a duty which could mean letting something stand you want to delete or deleting something you want to let stand. One trusts that people they appoint to carry out such tasks are up to that.

What happens at the point when it is perfectly clear from the evidence - that it would be very unwise to place your trust in these people's ability to do this?

And when it is also clear from the evidence - that they are not up to such tasks - but when it is also quite clear that they still intend not only to continue to expect that trust - but to insist and demand that trust is given to them?

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:32 AM

Only marginally...

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: GUEST,G
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

I just finished reading this thread for the first time (speed read type so I could have missed something but I doubt it).

With regard to this thread;

1. Why?
2. Does anyone know the quandry? (Quoting Amos)
3. What has been resolved?
4. Hamsters are hurting.
5. My head is hurting.
6. Harpgirl has no patience.
7. Much ado about nothing?
8. World hunger could have been resolved with the effort expended   
   here.
9. But........probably better than watching TV.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:00 AM

Hey! Hey, FLIPhead!!! Have I, like, got yer full attenshun here?



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DELETE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



(holdin'up my middle finger in yer flippin' direction)

And if I knew flippin' HTML I would have put it in red letters 5 feet high.

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:28 AM

To quote an old friend of mine, DANG!

Jerry

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:24 AM

Brevity already!! Now there's a new side to Roger that I didn't suspect he posessed.
G..

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:01 AM

Sorry - seems to be the hardest word.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:57 AM

Let's spell it out for you.

1) "Yes, Roger, if you posted to one of those general brawl threads or Spam threads that was deleted, then your message was deleted along with it. That happened with a number of Martin Gibson threads, because it was impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you wish to have copies of any of those messages, I will gladly send them to you, suitable for framing. I didn't find any of them just now - but if you tell me where they are....I didn't know you were in the habit of posting to Martin Gibson and Spam threads.[sigh]"

2) "OK, Roger. I am so sorry for whatever you require me to be sorry for; and at the same time, I am especially sorry for whatever else I'm supposed to be sorry for. Does that make you happy? I DO want you to feel good about this.
....or was it Mmario or Big Mick or katlaughing or Catspaw that was supposed to be sorry? I'm so confused. What thing? What past?
Who cares?
-Joe Offer-"

3) "No, Roger. I see no need to apologize. I haven't found any of your words that were deleted, although I concede that one or two of your 8,362 posts may have been deleted, if they were in a thread that was deleted. I did a quick check, and found none. It's not an all-encompassing check, but a quick check shows nothing. You're back to quoting out-of-context remarks from 2003 - comments that make very good sense when read in context. You've gone looney again. It's time to go back into your hole. Goodbye, Roger.
Maybe you just don't get it. It's worthwhile to respond to you when you're reasonably rational, when you address an actual issue. When you resort to two-year-old, out-of-context quotations and ad hominem attacks and one-in-a-million situations, you've gone too far, and there's no reasoning with you. Then it's not fun any more. Go hibernate, and come back when you're ready to be rational.
-Joe Offer-"

1) Joe is saying that if you posted to an MG or spam thread the message is gone. So if you remember how many times you posted to whatever many of those threads, you've got the number right there.

2) Is irrelevant.

3) No WORDS in your posts were deleted, but some posts have gone along with entire threads. See #1.
The advice is still good.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:18 AM

Sorry just isn't the word!

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:37 AM

Yeah. As for me, I'm almost ready to commit ritual suicide over some of the thoughtless things I've said...

But first I have to complete my Winona Ryder picture collection.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 07:03 PM

I'm as sorry as I can be.

~S~

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:51 PM

This is just getting too funny. Shambles, I'm so very very sorry for everything I've done. (just thought I should apologize too)

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 05:47 PM

.... oh, yeah ..... by the way ...... it ain't our forum. We just use it. It's Max's. Just pointing out your use of a very old tactic. When you need a false premise upon which to build your arguments, you just say it enough times until it is perceived to be true. Guys like you are champs at this.

Did you ever do the two things Spaw asked? I didn't think so. That would provide truth, and we can't be having that, now can we?

Now, let's see ..... I believe we were on the fallow fellow performing fellatio on the fawning faerie flexing in the field.........

Mick

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 04:45 PM

While you're at it there Shamballess......Why not PM MAX along with Wolfgang? Oh yeah, I forgot......Max won't give you a satisfying response will he?

Spaw

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 03:45 PM

Yes, do that, Shambles. I have PM'd Wolfgang on numerous occasions, and he always responds in an erudite, polite, and totally informative manner. Wolfgang is a person whom one can PM with absolute confidence of receiving a satisfying response.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 02:34 PM

It's not my task to find anything here, Shambles. I just did point out that your search could not find what it claimed and that therefore your argument based upon that search was faulty.

You posted the misleading information, you may correct it after doing the search correctly. If you don't know what you have done wrong after all those years here, PM me and I'll tell you.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

1. RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder - Jan 30 2005 3:42AM
"None of these actions will have changed the fact that this post (and possibly others) will have been placed on this forum open to the public.

Attempts by the Nazi's and others - to rewrite history are rightly being critised here, so are their attempts to limit individual freedoms, silence any opposing views and ultimately take total control through these methods. For these to succeed not only will have good folk done nothing to prevent it - many other good folk will have actively supported these methods - and for what they consider (or are told to consider) are the very best reasons....

Many posts here express how difficult it is to understand how we do these terrible things to our fellow human beings. If we are to ever understand this and most importantly to stop doing it - it is vital that we first enable all views to be expressed - no matter how offensive we may think them to be. I would go further and say that the more we all agree how offensive these views are - the more important it is that we ensure that they remain for all to see..... "



2. Subject: RE: BS: PBS to Censor Auschwitz Documentary
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:11 PM

Again this preoccupation with the exact word for evil regimes. As if it really matters.

If you get bitten by a poisonous creature - and you wish to survive - it may be very important to know exactly what the species was - so as to be able use the correct anti-serum.

But other than that - debates about which one is more venomous than others matter little. As is probably enough to lump them together as posionous creatures and do your very best to avoid any contact with them or avoid creating any situations where these poisonous creatures can use their venom.

Any bite from any dictator is probably just as bad as a bite from a fascist dictator.....


I think this level of censorship is well-intended and perfectly acceptable..........

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 02:22 PM

Just click on his name in any message he's posted, and you will receive a complete collection of everything Shambles has said on Mudcat. And not one word of it has been deleted, except for some of his more glaring duplications.
Joe Offer

The above statement posted on our forum (in a conventional post and not an editing comment and for the second time) is not true. I have asked for an apology and received the following reply – this time in an editing comment.

Yes, Roger, if you posted to one of those general brawl threads or Spam threads that was deleted, then your message was deleted along with it. That happened with a number of Martin Gibson threads, because it was impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you wish to have copies of any of those messages, I will gladly send them to you, suitable for framing. I didn't find any of them just now - but if you tell me where they are....I didn't know you were in the habit of posting to Martin Gibson and Spam threads.[sigh]

And this again in an editing comment.

OK, Roger. I am so sorry for whatever you require me to be sorry for; and at the same time, I am especially sorry for whatever else I'm supposed to be sorry for. Does that make you happy? I DO want you to feel good about this.
....or was it Mmario or Big Mick or katlaughing or Catspaw that was supposed to be sorry? I'm so confused. What thing? What past?
Who cares?
-Joe Offer-

And this again in an editing comment.

No, Roger. I see no need to apologize. I haven't found any of your words that were deleted, although I concede that one or two of your 8,362 posts may have been deleted, if they were in a thread that was deleted. I did a quick check, and found none. It's not an all-encompassing check, but a quick check shows nothing. You're back to quoting out-of-context remarks from 2003 - comments that make very good sense when read in context. You've gone looney again. It's time to go back into your hole. Goodbye, Roger.
Maybe you just don't get it. It's worthwhile to respond to you when you're reasonably rational, when you address an actual issue. When you resort to two-year-old, out-of-context quotations and ad hominem attacks and one-in-a-million situations, you've gone too far, and there's no reasoning with you. Then it's not fun any more. Go hibernate, and come back when you're ready to be rational.

-Joe Offer-

It is quite obvious that Joe Offer has no idea how many or whether my words have been deleted or not. He does not now - seem very interested in correctly informing our forum – and he is still not prepare to apologise for wrongly but emphatically informing our forum – not once but twice – in reference to my postings that not one word of it has been deleted.

If remember correctly - Joe was quite pleased with the idea of being The Witchfinder General.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:38 PM

Shambles / The Shambles (Click on 'History')
The way that fifteenth century buildings lean into the middle of the cobbled street means that the roofs almost touch in the middle So you could say The Shambles is 'over the top'

It is also interesting to notice the way the pavements on either side of the street are raised up, this was done to create a channel which the butchers would wash away their waste through; offal and blood would gush down Shambles twice weekly. And spouts all sorts of offal rubbish!

Nigel

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:27 PM

Is he a monorchid then?
Giok

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:27 PM

Boy, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill! LOL!

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM

you have several times made comparisions between the editing of Joe and the clones to the rise of the Nazi party. You may have never actually compared Joe to Hitler - but that certainly was what most people would infer from your comments.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM

You did a search that could not find what it claimed to search for.

Amongst many claims made about me here by Joe Offer - that have proved to be untrue - he has additionally claimed that I have compared him to Hitler. As far as I can recall - I have not posted such a claim. I did the search to see if I could find a post where I may have done this - and I posted the result of that search.

If I ever did post such a comparison - I am sure Wolfgang that you will be able to find it for us.......

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:06 PM

I always say, "My head will never save my legs" as I go back into the room I just left for the umpteenth time for whatever it was I went in there for in the first place!
Giok

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: jeffp
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:00 PM

Bill, that's too true to be funny! Townhouse living is for the young.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:56 PM

Susan...I have a GREAT exercise program....I have just linked it to my memory. The more I forget, the more I get to run back & forth and up & downstairs!

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:45 PM

Then too, there are specious arguments. I find those more compelling, on the whole, than spurious arguments. This is where George Bush needs help. He has shown great mastery of the spurious, but only a vague grasp of the specious.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:18 AM

Hey Bill, that would be a great weight loss plan. From now on, any time I spend reading/composing this stuff-- it's out for a walk of at least equal length!

~S~

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:06 AM

"Some feel that a spurious argument is better than no argument at all... ;-)"

I know that kind of logic!
"The exception proves the rule...consequently, the more exceptions, the better the rule!"

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:03 AM

Some feel that a spurious argument is better than no argument at all... ;-)

In fact, I know thousands of people who feel that way! My town is full of such people.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

It is also a verb:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shambling


A

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:00 AM

By the way – In reference to Joe Offer's claim in the above linked post - that I have compared him with Hitler - I put The Shambles - Joe Offer and Hitler in the advance search and the only post that came-up was the following. (Shambles)

By the same silly procedure you could also claim that you never have called anyone a witchfinder, for a search with 'The Shambles' and 'witchfinder' only brings up two posts by Micca and a GUEST and none by you.

You did a search that could not find what it claimed to search for. A spurious argument was the consequence.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:48 AM

MY hamsters are retired since Windows 3.1 was replaced and they no longer have to power the system! They are happily converting old cardboard tubes to mulch and looking over my shoulder as I read them "Happy Hamster" threads and tell them scary stories of how hard they'd need to run to keep up with 500+ threads about nothing in particular!

"Be good", I tell them, "or I'll make you run the wheel while I read ALL of Shambles posts!"

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:24 AM

I found this funny, but the I've always had an oddball sense of humour
Stress any syllable
G. ¦¬]

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:54 AM

Someone told me this hamster thread was back from all the drift and I see that it is. LH, point dastardly doers out and we'll organize a protest rally... a real big PITH up.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:49 AM

And STILL the persecutors of innocent hamsters go unpunished!

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:44 AM

And editing thread names for clarity, what's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 08:21 PM

Why would anyone ever care enough to edit/censor a routine discussion thread

Don't kid yourself there. In any place where posts are made, an opinion can be given that an "editor" does not like, eg. if you posted telling me what a nice honest chap Tony Blair is, a temptation within me if I had the power might say "delete that crap". Could happen to clones here if things got personal at them, etc.

The thing is if you are doing that sort of work which you have been entrusted to do, you leave any personal feeling out of it, Whether you care or not is irrelevant, Whether you are woking in line with site policy is relevant.

It's not about whether a person might care enough or not but whether they can distance feelings enough to do thier duty, a duty which could mean letting something stand you want to delete or deleting something you want to let stand. One trusts that people they appoint to carry out such tasks are up to that.

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:50 PM

Oops...back to the HTML practice page......

no worries:-)..fixed it for ya...just another joe clone

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:49 PM

I have the ability to go down to the local sporting-goods store and buy a pistol or rifle, and then I'd have the ability to walk up and down my street shooting at the neighbors' cats. Doesn't mean I ever would. Why would anyone ever care enough to edit/censor a routine discussion thread such as this one or its precursor, even as silly as they have gotten?

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:12 PM

*breaking resolution briefly for clarification*

ABILITY??? I see....someone **MIGHT** get carried away and decide to edit or censor me. Well, I'll chance it. Can't see how the ABILITY to edit can be made partial, anyway. And Joe says that he & Jeff can always UNdelete a thread or overrule editing if the need arises.....so I'll live with it.

*back to resolution mode*

Subject: RE: HI Max: What about Shambles requests?
From: Janie
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 04:24 PM

From the DSM-IV Glossary of Specific Defense Mechanisms and Coping Styles. (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition.)

help-rejecting complaining: The individual deals with emotional conflict or stressors by complaining or making repetitious requests for help that disquise covert feelings of hostility or reproach toward others, which are then expressed by rejecting the suggestions, advice, or help others offer.

Also see definitions for delusion, ideas of reference, delusion of reference and overvalued idea, all found in the DSM-IV's Glossary of Technical Terms.

Roger probably can not make use of the help many are trying to offer--that is offering him the view of less distorted roadmaps of reality.

Me--I like hamsters.

Janie