Music and Politics

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:20 PM

Guest "Ironic" evidently has no idea what he or she is talking about, but that's nothing new, unfortunately. To him or to her, I'd suggest a little basic research; it's easily done, and it saves making yourself look stupid.

The assumption that folk music belongs in particular to the Left is a late 20th century misunderstanding. It has never had much to do with political alignment in either direction. It's just there, and it belongs to anybody who cares about it. I have no idea how most of the people I've played music with over the years vote; nor do I care. It's none of my business, provided it doesn't interfere with their playing; and provided, so to speak, they don't scare the horses.

I suppose I'd like it if everybody I knew was a good Socialist, but life isn't like that: and I've known enough right-wingers who were -and are- decent, kind people to know that it's rarely that simple.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: shepherdlass
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:31 PM

Dick Gaughan's voice is full of passion. Much of that passion is political. It's in the nature of his art to be outspoken and left-wing and his music would not be the same without this. It's great music, whatever your political opinion. What it doesn't do is degrade and belittle whole swathes of people because of colour or creed - surely that would be the extreme where political music would get offensive.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 09:14 PM

The Nazi Party held exhibitions of what they considered 'proper art & sculpture' according to their political manifesto. They also promoted "Songs for the Folk" of a similar ilk. I think the Italian Fascists did too.

If you check that stuff out nowadays, just how interesting and stimulating is it?

If you put ppolitical blinders on artistic creation, just how creative is it?

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: GUEST,Ironic
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 11:56 AM

Dave S,
Mr Martin Carthy MBE, political???

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM

Hmm, some were, but most weren't. Even then, very little is about class distinction.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 01:18 PM

Social upheaval, working class struggle and rebellion, class distinction and the fight against inequality have been the bedrock of folk song over the last few centuries. MacColl, Rosselson, Rob Johnson, Roy Bailey, Vin Garbutt, Martin Carthy and many others throughout the folk club movement are simply extending that tradition and more power to them.(That does not mean that I didn't like the music of Peter Bellamy - I was a huge fan of his!) Separate folk music and politics - I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:51 AM

"Dick Gaughan otoh is about as far left as you can be. The only times it gets on my nerves is when he force feeds his politics. siad Le Scaramouche.

That's about it: Peter Bellamy's politics are unknown (to me at least) and certainly don't come across in the songs he chose to sing. I can take Dick Gaughan only as far as his politics don't get in the way of his music. Ditto Leon Rosselson, Ewan McColl, everybody else. I can take Peter Bellamy all the time.

Politics gets in the way of music.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:08 AM

Like McGrath, shepherdlass and Mooman said: It depends.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: shepherdlass
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:11 PM

I suppose it depends on the degree of political difference. It's not too difficult to share a stage with the occasional old-fashioned "one-nation" Tory but quite another to have to spend any time in the company of anyone allied to an outright racist organization like BNP. Bizarrely, the one musician I know who is involved in this odious party used to make his living singing SOUL music. Somehow he didn't see the irony in his performing all the songs of Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, et al and then campaigning to keep immigrants out of the country! However, his band (which included 2nd generation British Asians and West Indians) did see the problem, and left. Can't really blame them, can you?

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: mooman
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:08 AM

I know several excellent musicians here in Belgium that have associations with the far-right Vlams Belang (former Vlams Blok) party (somewhat similar to the BNP). I used to play occasionally with them, choosing to put music before politics but, following an unsavoury and unpleasant incident when a couple of African musicians politely asked to jam along will now go out of my way to avoid doing so. I will mention no names.

I'm pretty easy going about who I will play with but as I primarily play for the enjoyment of it, see no need to play with those of extreme political or other views.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Roughyed
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 05:12 PM

Let's be clear about this. Nazis such as the BNP are criminals who use politics to further their criminal ambitions. The difference between the most right wing Tory and the BNP is that you can vote the Tories out if they ever gain power (heaven forbid) again. A BNP government would have me, my wife,children, grandchildren and wider family put into camps and murdered if they ever gained power along with thousands and thousands of other families.

Whatever they say, they take their cue from Goebbels and Hitler that lies are the way to gain power so there is no point in debating with them either. The only thing to do is to oppose their hateful doctrines wherever they raise their heads, organise and demonstrate against them.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 04:06 PM

Politics is one thing. I can't imagine differences about what I'd call politics getting in the way too much. Racism is something else. I'd class it with wife-beating and rape. I'd have the same problems sitting down with someone who was a genuine racist as I would with someone who I knew was likely to go home and knock his wife about.

I say "genuine racist" because there are people who have picked up aspects of that from the way they were brought up and the times they were brought up in, and so forth, and it might show up sometimes in the way they talk, but it's really pretty superficial. They aren't what I'd call genuine racists.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:51 PM

Hit enter too soon.
Ment to add:
A song should challenge, make you think, not batter you over the head.
See Lehrer's "Folk Song Army".

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:50 PM

Being force-fed politics is no fun. It's like moral liver pate.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:46 PM

I'm still dithering about on this one. I can - and have - make music with some right wingers- but if s/he sang a song that spelt out a view that I don't adhere to, I'm gonna make sure that the very next song is a bleedin' liberal one. And it had better be just ONE song. Music is not a competition.

Actually, this has happened. It has also happened that a 'new' person came to our Friday night jam, someone that I personally knew was very conservative, and was bombarded with songs and conversation that made him visibly uncomfortable. In most cases, those people tend to be one-timers.

We have never had an argument or even a debate on the right vs left wings. (That is one of my main objections to right wingers- are they all nonverbal and inarticulate? Do they all just spout the stuff they have been force fed?)

I guess that for me it boils down to: If I have the right to require the neocon to sing my kind of material, does s/he have the right to require me to sing the opposing view? Nah, I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: GUEST,TopCat
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:20 PM

It's not just musicians but singers as well - one of the most regular mudcat posters to threads about the Sidmouth Folk Week is 'Cllr.' - a Conservative Councillor.

I often think there's little difference between the Tories and the BNP but that won't stop me sharing a pint and a song with 'Cllr.' if I ever return to Sidmouth... especially if Cllr. is buying!

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:34 AM

Peter Bellamy is my very favourite singer, but I don't really know about his politics other than him not being in the Left.
Dick Gaughan otoh is about as far left as you can be. The only times it gets on my nerves is when he force feeds his politics.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:32 AM

A musicians political views only matter IF the musician insists on ONLY performing material that conforms with THEIR viewpoint , and refuses to look at material that conforms to another viewpoint .
A right wing band can do good music , a left wing band can do good music and IF you have a mix of views in a band , then the music must NOT be dictated by either side !
I know one Right Wing catter who books VERY left wing singers in his club , simply because he likes the MUSIC !!

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: joffyB
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 07:14 AM

I checked out Dick Gaughan's piece on Peter Bellamy - was really good. I love both men's music, but have no idea about either's political convictions though (except from their choice of songs to play). I guess that's the wonderful thing about music - it trancends all that political stuff (ideally) after all - it's hard to hate someone that you've just jammed well with & even if all that you have in common with someone is a love of a particular type of music, it's a starting point for a dialogue. Also, how do you feel about a great piece of music that has dodgy lyrics? It's a hard one & it depends usually on the individual song but in the end, I'd probably choose to either change the lyrics or not sing the song at all.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: FiddlerOnTheHoof
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 11:02 PM

Hmm...depends what their convictions are..I know the BNP have plenty of convictions between them..

I have to have a rapport with someone to play music with them.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 20 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

It depends on the man and his politics.
Some people I can respect for having the guts to stick to their convictions, but others are just plain odious.
I like this piece by Dick Gaughan:
Peter Bellamy

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:26 PM

BNP are'nt all fools..

thats the dangerous thing about them..

some are well educated intelligent and charming fellows..

... reeerrrrpp.. rewind.. !!!

BNP are odious land that time forgot shite cunts..


. but some of us might still get suckered into sharing a stage with them..

.. errrmm.. cough.. traditional indidginous ENGLISH music.. cough.. !!??

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:19 PM

..... ok.. i'm not that far gone yet..

SundaY 21 Aug..


Radio 4

4.30pm

..errrr.. could any one tape this..??

i might be down the local cider club

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: FiddlerOnTheHoof
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:15 PM

I know what you mean, you become more understanding and less idealistic with age...but the BNP are a bunch of Nazis, period.

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 11:11 PM

.. older you get more difficult it is to judge individuals
on simplistic beleif systems annd idiologies you subscribed to as young students..

"I wonder if some people would refuse to play with him because of this?"

i might not..

"is the music more important than their political beliefs?"


.. maybe..


"is the music more important than their political beliefs?"

. of course not.. never..!!


.. i might play on stage with one as a favour to a good mate..

accept a pint if he buys me one..

try to discuss and challenge his odious political doctrine..

.. then when we're all well drunk ..

take the piss out of him and drag him outside for a good old ideological re-orientation..


.. dont forget ..

a program about attila the stockbroker on radio 4 this weekend

.. maybe sunday .. too cidered up to be arsed confirming with radio times

Subject: RE: Music and Politics
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 10:59 PM

Cor, yes, mate!

I've hooted with rampant rednecks. We just agree to disagree, but we like each other in other respects and we love making music together.

A

Subject: Music and Politics
From: FiddlerOnTheHoof
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 10:54 PM

Can music be separated from politics? I'm just wondering this because I've read on here about a BNP supporter who is a musician. I wonder if some people would refuse to play with him because of this? Or is the music more important than their political beliefs? I would go with the former, what do other people think.