BS: Celebrate Cronehood

Subject: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:20 PM

Hello Ladies (& Gents who are interested),

    Definition of Crone: Post menopausal woman who has enough age and experience on her to be an effective mentor to other women, to have reflected on her life and the world enough to have some wisdom and insight-- about people, kids, community, relationships, the power of planting something, nurturing, nature. Includes the willingness to take on the responsibities of being an "Elder." The effective Crone is comfortable in her own skin, unafraid of her own imperfections, and both humble and self-trusting. If she is a mother, the children are grown, and she has obtained both some insight and some objectivity about them.

What would you include in a celebration and rite of passage into cronehood? Who would you invite?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:28 PM

I probably wouldn't invite anyone. I'd dress in practical clothes, put a bandana under my sun hat and a damp towel around my neck and I'd go work in my garden. I don't care what it looks like, it feels right to get the work done that I have to do. The dog can come along for company. Those who understand about my experience and wisdom know where to find me and usually seem to manage calls or visits at just the right time. :)

(My kids aren't grown yet, but most of the other elements apply.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 09:46 PM

my kids are in their 20s and old enough and competent for me to borrow money from - i guess that gets me into the club. as it happens, next sunday I'm holding a crone celebration at my place - on the theme of Women Who Run with the Dingos.. it will include some laughs, some stories, some sangria, and some howling to the moon. many old femmes will be there to continue the support we have given each other over the decades. it will be a continuation of an old Women Who Run with the Dingos group some of us had in the 80s - we will pick up where we left off.

freda, her knotted fingers entwined around her staff..

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:18 PM

I miss my wimmin's group back in CT. I'd probably do something solitary here around a campfire, with a smudge stick, prayer pouches, a drum, and some chants. I would also hang some new prayer flags up to commemorate the ceremony. AND, I would remember a new defintion for which "bitch" is an acronym: Broad in Total Control of Herself!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: jaze
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:23 PM

Love that new definition, Kat!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM

Thanks, jaze. I got it from Iyanla Vansant, whom I first saw on Starting Over, a reality tv series, the only one of its kind I watch! I hated her and her techniques of "life" coaching, but a best friend had read her life story and was very impressed, so I kept watching and listening. She is really excellent at what she does and I LOVE that definition, too! Takes away the negativity and claims our right to be righteous wimmin, imo!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: JennyO
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:56 PM

I used to belong to a small women's group that did drumming chanting, and various rituals - sounds a lot like your group Kat. It was a very important part of my life for several years. There was a core of six of us, we were all equals, and it was a lot of fun. Then for some reason, the woman who originally set it up, tried to change it into something more along the lines of a therapy group, with her as therapist. I tried to go along with it, although I could see that some people in the group were starting to feel uncomfortable - they felt the group wasn't a safe place to be any more. Tempers flared on several occasions, and it stopped being fun - we weren't equals any more. After a few weeks of it being like that, the whole thing fell apart.

Three of us continued to meet for coffee for a while, but it was never the same. This woman, who I had considered to be my best friend, became more prickly, and just decided one day that I had done something wrong (she would never tell me what) and cut me off entirely. And no, it wasn't menopause - she was older than us and had gone through that years before. I have tried to talk to her several times since then, and just got a brick wall. Nearly four years later, it still hurts when I think about it, and still she won't talk.

I tried to console myself with the thought that nothing lasts forever, and that like everything else, the group had run its course, but it left a big hole. I really missed it for a long time. The loss of the friendship was even more painful, and quite incomprehensible. I have trouble letting go of things like that which have no explanation and don't seem to make sense. It feels very incomplete.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to going to freda's group on Sunday and being one of the Women Who Run with the Dingos. Sounds like a good new start!

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 04:43 AM

I used to think my next door neighbour was an old crone, but after reading the description above I now realise the word ' harridan ' is a better description.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 07:49 AM

This is an interesting thread Janie. I've believed for a long time that our Western cultures don't make enough of "Rites of Passage". I shall think now about how to celebrate my entry into cronehood, when I can bring myself to admit it!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:15 AM

Four years of hot flashes (read Strobing) amnd I still don't qualify as a crone. Soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM

My crone won't wear her hood!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:39 AM

Maiden, Mother, Crone.

Tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From:
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 08:51 AM

A member of the Coven I belong recently went through an early menopause and it hit her hard. The group did a beautiful ritual on the new moon which she lead to grieve/say good by to what has gone before and to welcome and celbrate this mew stage/path of her life. It was a wonderful evening of meditation, ritual and feast!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:00 AM

One of the biggest myths is that menopause is a time when your femininity is diminished. Sociologists have determined that the happiest group of people are women over 55, for a number of reasons.

Menopause is a great liberation - no more periods, no more PMT, no more pain, cramps, bloating, no more contraception. Menopause is a wonderful time of emotional peace, balance and liberation. and empowerment. And it in no way diminishes a woman's sexual urges or performance.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:29 AM

There seem to be a few cultural parallels. Since these involve a slowly developing concensus, and not a declaration, perhaps a transitional ceremony would be inappropriate. After all, how can you be sure some one's a crone until every one agrees?

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From:
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:32 AM

The ritual we performed with the other member was of great help to her and I do think that more emphasis should be put on rites passage. Its something to celebrate, a new stage of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:35 AM

that sounds wonderful, catsphiddle - celebrate is the word!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:39 PM

Lots of interesting thoughts expressed here. Here are some more of mine--more or less random.

Mack, I hear what you are saying, but I think it often likely that the woman herself realizes she has become a crone before those around her have developed the eyes to see her that way.

Aging is an honorable process. While losses come with getting older, much is also gained. I have been thinking about cronehood for several years now, off and on, but what rekindled my wonderings (wanderings) has been related to a job search, and learning that my wisdom, experience and maturity are not as valued by the job market as is quickness, youthful enthusiasm, naivete and computer skills.

In many ways I think I already function as crone to my community, but being engaged with raising a youngster seems to put the brakes on full cronehood for me. I went through early menopause, but got pregnant with my only child while I was going through menopause. I was 42 when he was born, had one light menstral period when I stopped nursing, and ta da! menopause was over. He is now 11 and starting middle school. The skills, energy, activities and areas of mental focus and endeaver required for child rearing seem to be a somewhat different set of skills than those of cronehood. If nothing else, my child rearing responsibilities have priority of what I see as the responsibilities of cronehood to the community.

Rites of passage are important--both to the individual and to society. Too often, in western culture (I don't know about other cultures) the "rite of passage" part of a baptism, bar mitzvah (spelling bad but you get my drift) wedding, graduation, debutante ball are not really noted or understood. It seems to me that a rite of passage always involves the 'witness' of the community in one form or other. The 'community' doesn't seem to understand what they are taking on as witnesses. Funerals seem to be the exception.

How often does one actually see the 'community' rise to its responsibilities regarding child rearing and marriage. I think a primary role of the crone may be to hold the community accountable, or to act as the agent of the community (society) to fulfill these obligations.

All rites of passage deal with the intersection and interrelationship of the individual and the social--the community.

Enough rambling for now. Let's hear some more.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:48 PM

Well, I know several women who qualify for this honor and they seem to have benefited greatly from their many years of experience. They have grown in wisdom and compassion, and they're not obsessing about issues like "My nose is too big!" anymore...

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: MMario
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:52 PM

Janie - I don't believe your mathematics. no way. the numbers just don't add up to the woman I have met.

"Crone" in many ways is a function - and I think in todays society the traditional definition may become slightly irrelavent - I know woman who are prime "crone" material - though only in their late 20's, early 30's.

Likewise there is a dang high percentage who will never reach cronehood no matter how old they get.

unfortunately "crone" has some negative connotations that it shouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:56 PM

That's what I'm saying, Leo--having a change of life baby keeps one a bit younger than one otherwise would be;^)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: MMario
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM

NO wonder my mom doesn't look her age! (She had three - over 9 years)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:26 PM

Unfortunately the only people who give respect to age are people who have themselves experienced the effects of age. What I want to see is the return of respect for age amongst the youth of today. With the falling birthrate in most western societies today they better give us some respect as they'll need us to keep working longer or the economy of their country will collapse.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:28 PM

Well, go to Cuba, John. I found plenty of respect for older people there among the young people I met. Of course, they don't have video games yet... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:25 PM

Folk, traditional and blues music are places where elders DO get more respect--sort of. Sometimes music elders get treated like precocious children.

But--back to crones, communities and rites of passage....

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 03:48 AM

But I still want to be a sex-object!!!!!!!!!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: GUEST,Vic at work
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

MBSLynne How could you be anything other?












Gis a booking.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:44 AM

Ah, but Lynne--Who says crones aren't sexy;-)

Freda--can I be with you in spirit on Saturday? (Let's see, would that be my Saturday morning or my Friday morning...)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:39 AM

Thank you Vic....do I know you? Do I want to?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Essex Girl
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:40 AM

Well, I certainly qualify as a crone, but as Janie says having children late in life does keep you younger in spirit, if not in body. I had my daughter in 1967, but my son wasn't born until 1989, so in effect I have raised two families. I'll be with you in spirit Freda.
Linda

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

Janie and Linda, you are both welcome! it will be Sunday afternoon in Syd, so that will be 2am - 5 am Sunday your time, i think! perhaps you can subliminally join us in your dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:31 AM

I'll be there!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM

F*ck cronehood.   I had no advice to give when I was younger and I'm even less cocksure about the world around me now and hopefully, I will not so humbly rail against the fading of the light until the bitter end. Also, no matter how I try to look at it, that wart on my thumb is damned unsightly.....hmmm.....must remember to pick up some more Compound W.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 01:26 PM

what did ya do today? / Celebrate Cronehood

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:02 PM

This crone is starting to have hot flashes again after a 16 year break. I never had really severe hot flashes like some women do, and these aren't awful either, though a bit more powerful than those pre-pregnancy. They are mainly startling:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 09:43 PM

I think an absolute rite of passage should be getting rid of unnecessary possessions...

and never ever calling oneself wise -- Latina or not -- that was a stupid thing to say --- if one is wise someone else sooner or later will tell you. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 10:27 PM

I never had them badly, either, but when they started, I started taking tinctures of motherwort, dandelion root, and hawthorne berries, all together in a little bit of pure water, several times a day. Worked a treat, as they say!

mg..I think that's what some of us are doing in the declutter thread and I absolutely agree. BUT, I think it is okay to call ourselves wise...for too long women have been put down, denigrated for too many reasons...we deserve to call ourselves wise, charming, beautiful, whatever and whenever, imo.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:52 AM

Janie, Post menopausal hot flashes can mean a variety of things. Get your thyroid checked and make sure you don't have TB.
It is not likely to be hormonal.
SINS, the Wise Old Bat

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM

I think I like the expression "Wise woman" better.

And i admit to misreading "pouches" at first glance above!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 11:18 AM

I look forward to Matriachal Mischief.... if genetics and heredity is anything to go by, I should be getting my Cronepass pretty soon now!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 05:41 PM

Power Surges

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 07:20 PM

Cronehood??? Holey Moley!!!   Oooooh Nooooooo!!!


An Eccentric Ol' Faery.......

...who'll cover herself in sparkles and stardust....long, wispy silver plaits tumbling over her shoulders and flowers all through her hair. Colourful, flowing clothes, made of velvet and silk that shimmer and shine in the sun as she twirls to The Oysterband....And her scarlet shoes sparkling like Dorothy's did...but they'll be 'f**k me pumps' whose high heels she'll click together when the moon is full, as the stars twinkle down on a 'things that go bump in the night' night.....and it won't be 'the flushes' that make her flushed...   ;0)

Her smile will tell her story, whilst her eyes will be full of love and naughty laughter...

And her Soul will never grow old...

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 08:07 PM

I like that picture, Lizzie

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:44 PM

I think I'll settle for a red hat to go with my scarlet attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:07 PM

I am not surprised at all that coneheads are celibate!!! Thank your lucky stars they won't be breeding.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 08:23 PM

Cronehood rates me a certain amount of respect from the younger generation at work and a lot of latitude for some outrageous behavior and comments. I enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 12:41 AM

Yes!

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 03:30 AM

I think I'll stick with the basic green/purple/black with the occasional scary yellow top and the f**k off boots.

And a red hat.

Or maybe a rainbow one....

And scary turquoise earrings....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Celebrate Cronehood
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 04:08 AM

Are male crones allowed? I fancy a red hat and f**k-off boots. A touch of velvet and silk, with a few sparkly spangles wouldn't go amiss either.

You have to reach inside for the inner man and yank him out sometimes...