Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'

Subject: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's Orange Tree
From: Schwa
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 04:14 PM

I have a recording of Neilson's 'Orange Tree', sung by Cathie O'Sullivan, which I really enjoy. I would appreciate any suggestions from those of you in the know as to what it's all about (i.e what Neilson intended it to mean), and/or how you interpret it? Thanks

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tre
From: Helen
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM

Hi David,

Do a search in the Lyrics & Knowledge search box, top right with the search term

[orange tree]

with the square brackets.   The poem/song has been discussed and I'll say some more later but I'm late for work right now.

My favourite poet, and my favourite poem.

Helen

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Helen
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM

The two threads I found which mentions The Orange Tree

The Orange Tree

New Song from CapriUn

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Helen
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

Rats, the second link is wrong. It links to a totally different thread. I'm trying to find the right link.

Anyway, my quick version of the meaning is that the girl can see & hear something beyond the normal senses, or that she is extremely sensitive to the world around her and sees and hears something *indescribable* in the orange tree.

The man goes on and on trying to put words around the indescribable feeling, and therefore tries to pin down the experience and limit is to what he can understand. Is it this, is it that? He does not listen to the girl he just prattles with endless questions.

She finally stops listening to him and becomes like the orange tree, i.e. just "being" not over-intellectualising her self.

That's it in a nutshell, and it is only my opinion, but the funny thing is that I got mad in an English Lit tutorial at Uni when we were analysing the "c#%p" out of this poem and I unconsciously did what the girl was doing. I said why do we have to analyse poems and literature to death rather than just reading them and absorbing the total effect, the atmosphere, the feelings, the statements the poet/author is trying to make. As soon as I said that I realised that I had expressed what I really thought & felt about the poem.

I was reading Herrman Hesse novels around that time. It's not so much the plot in HH's novels but the world he creates and the total emptional, spiritual, psychological and intellectual atmosphere he creates.

Helen
Late for work again!

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Helen
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:59 PM

This is the corrected second link.   

New Song from CapriUni

It doesn't go into detail about The Orange Tree. I mentioned the poem in htat thread because CapriUni's song reminded me of it.

Helen

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Schwa
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:21 PM

Thanks for your thoughts about the poem Helen, very enlightening. I've been pondering about it for ages (part of the joy of the poem I guess), and perhaps like the adult in the poem missing something – or not , I don't know!
Do you think there might be more to what the adult is saying than random guesswork about what's going on in the orange tree? If the adult in the poem is a man, his referral to 'he' in the poem suggests to me he might be talking about himself – dreams, experiences etc? It seems that the adult is as lost as the child in their own worlds.
Also do you know if Neilson ever wrote about its meaning? Thanks again, I appreciate the time you've spared to share your thoughts.

David

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Helen
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:50 PM

You wrote: "his referral to 'he' in the poem suggests to me he might be talking about himself – dreams, experiences etc"

Yes, in my opnion, that is more than likely.

I have a book of Neilson's poems somewhere, but as far as I know he didn't write much about his poems because he was an "untrained" poet. He worked on his family farm I think and wrote the poems, probably because they were an integral part of his life.

You could try Googling (Google.com) and see what you can find. I'd try the simple search first:

"John Shaw Neilson" "The Orange Tree"

(use the double quotes)


You'll probably get a lot of academic stuff but JNS appeals to the real people :-) so there'll be non-academic comments as well.

Helen
Still late for work!!

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:19 PM

I don't think the question should be "What is it all about?
The question should be "What does it mean to me?"

Interpretation of lyrical, mystical poetry requires input from our own feelings. One's own interpretation might differ sharply from that of another.

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Helen
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM

Yes, Q, and it is especially true in this specific poem, don't you think?

I can only say what I think it means - for me. But one important issue in this poem is that everyone experiences something different even when they are standing right next to each other looking at the same thing. For me the poem itself can be substituted for the orange tree. Different people experience it in different ways.

I think - from my experience of life, and my way of relating to life - that JNS was a very spiritual person who had what I call the Celtic way of relating to nature as being the essence of the Creator/God on earth, so experiencing the orange tree like the girl is doing in the poem is also experiencing the Creator/God's presence. And if you can experience that it is very very difficult to explain it to someone who doesn't experience it. It's like trying to converse in 2 totally different languages when you only speak/understand your own. There is an impenetrable barrier to communication.

But that's just my thoughts/feelings on the poem.

Helen

Subject: RE: Meaning: John Shaw Neilson's 'Orange Tree'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:27 PM

My thoughts followed a somewhat different path. The girl feeling the presence of the eternal feminine in the fruitful orange tree, the boy not satisfied with the tree just being, bearing the light of the eternal, but must find something concrete, evidence of male feelings and explorations. Yes, a failure to understand.

It also reminded me of something at a lower level, done by James Thurber years ago, when he expressed the male-female difference in viewpoint in his cartoons, "The War between Men and Women."