Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes

Subject: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:42 PM

Recently been doing a new [to me] song.

It's got a very broad range to it & so its very hard to perform & hit all the high & low notes comfortably.

If I choose a key that's ok for the highest notes, then most of the song seems down in the cellar & can't be heard.

If key ok for most notes in song, I'm straining & squeaking on high notes!

Any advice?

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:47 PM

Larynx transplant ??

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM

or I just play accompaniment while A.N. Other does the sining?

The girlie in my group can hit all the notes- but it's a song sung from a man's point of view- so when she does it- it's a bit incongruous.

But I wanna do it!

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM

Change the high notes to a different octave?

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Amos
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:11 PM

Have her sing while you lip synch and pantomime! Unforgettable, no question.


A

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: 8_Pints
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:13 PM

You can chat to Sue vG at Whixley about the problem (though she claims not be an expert on the matter).

Bob vG

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:14 PM

Find where the bulk of the song sounds good (in your range) then adjust the high or low notes you can't reach to something you can, like a harmonic 5th and have someone who can hit those notes sing the melody.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:21 PM

To develop an ability, you need to practice the bits you don't do well as yet.

If you want to extend your vocal range, you need to practice the notes at the ends. But if you just force things, you may damage your voice. You need to consult someone who is trained in teaching people to extend their vocal range, i.e. a singing coach/teacher.

Otherwise, you just have to fake it - and you will get lots of advice here - a bigger bunch of fakers there isn't! ;-)

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:24 PM

Cluin,

we discussed similar at practice last weak - like I sing the parts I can do comfortably while Barby or Marilyn sin a counter melody/harmony on the diff bits.

Presently I can just about reach all notes - with a bit of strain/squeak in C#/D flat [G shapes- 1st fret capoed] - but I'd prefer to be able to do all in a more 'cumfy' key if poss.

*******

8_Pints,

Thanks,

Will certainly confer with Sue this w/e for advice


Cheers to u & all above

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: paddymac
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:15 PM

Good advice frfom Cluin, alright, but having "Barby or Marilyn sin a counter melody/harmony on the diff bits" might turn into a real crowd pleaser, depending, I suppose, on the kind of crowd the group is accustomed to "sin/sing" for/with, etc.

Sorry. Just being silly.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Genie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:23 PM

Sometimes it's possible to put the song in a midrange key, so that the low notes are comfortable, and transpose the high notes to an octave lower.   (I do that with Bob Dylan's songs "Love Is Just a Four-Letter Word" and "Boots Of Spanish Leather.")   

And on some songs, you can substitute a harmony part, about a third lower, for the high part.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:48 PM

Sometimes a song like this was never intended for the voice. It was written for an instrument such as harp or piano which has all the notes you could ever want. Then someone decided to add words to the tune, and people start killing themselves trying to sing it.

( I suspect Danny Boy and Dainty Davy of being such songs.)

Another thing that happened with some old songs is that they were performed by men who could switch their voices from high to low.

When women and children speak or sing, the edges of the vocal folds come together. When a man's voices changes at puberty, the sides of the folds come together. However, a man can keep up the skill of using the edges if he works at it. Therefore, in some folk songs, a man might sing one part very low, then switch to his other, higher voice, and sing the high part.

If I were you, I wouldn't risk hurting my voice to sing some song which you were never meant to sing.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:59 PM

We're all in the dark about what the song is. Depending on what it is, and its character (aggressive, melancholy, humorous), various approaches could be taken. If it's either romantic or melancholy, for instance, you don't really have to hit the high notes hard at all--just touch them. If the song is aggressive, of course, this doesn't work. In general I would think the low notes are probably more important-- (but of course, as I said, none of us know what the song is, which makes advice difficult.)

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:56 PM

If you are going to 'fake it' by transposing parts of the song, don;t forget about putting those low notes up an octave or a fifth. You would probably need to judge what section of the song needs this and where you 'flip' back to the original path.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:56 PM

One other possibility: if you're performing it through a sound system, lean right into the mic on the low notes and let its 'proximity' effect reinforce the bass.

(I attend some country jams and sometimes do the old Jim Reeves song "He'll Have to Go". To get the range I have to do it in 'D' and use that swallow-the-mic technique for the octave drop on the line "..jukebox way down *low*". Works.)

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Genie
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:28 AM

Jeremiah, you're so right. There are a bunch of songs that I never try to sing -- or never try to sing in a low key - unless I'm miked, but when amplified, I can make the low notes sound really good.   It's just that without the mic, you wouldn't hear those lowest notes across a large room.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 04:48 AM

The more you sing, the more flexible you can become... when I'm in practice, my range is something like 3 octaves but if I haven't sung properly for some time (like this March/April when I had a throat infection that stopped me singing for 8 weeks) it goes down to 2, 2.4. Singing every day, doing scales until it starts to be uncomfortable works for me. It might not work for you. Not being a bloke, my larynx is a bit different!

I do have, when I need it, a "head" voice - the voice most people sing with, it doesn't put too much pressure on my throat and I can make the higher notes. My "throat" voice is the one powered by the diaphragm and has the volume in the lower registers. Morticia discovered her "throat" voice a year or so ago and the difference is incredible.

Practice the old fashioned way, with scales, arpeggios and such like.... you'll be better for it what ever you sing!

LTS

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:52 AM

Some tips for hitting the high notes:

1. Always practice at 'performance' level volume; this means that, whilst in performance, you are comfortable at your full range. It's surprising how many people 'throttle-back' while they're practising.
Whilst practising you need to find out what your full range really is - not just what you think it is. If your local folk club or organisation runs singers' workshops, take full advantage of them - they really can help.

2. Don't throw your head back when trying for the high notes - keep your chin low (counter-intuitive, I know, but it does work).

3. Think about where the breaths come in a song. If there's a particularly high note coming up contrive to find a breathing space before it so that you've got 'enough air' to hit the note. Proper breathing is of vital importance to a singer - although I've been singing for years I still need to work on my breathing - and will probably need to do so until I take my last breath!

Finally, I'll say it again, work on your singing with other singers - I have found, over the years, that proper constructive criticism is almost always helpful. All of the above tips have come from various singers' workshops that I have attended - thanks, guys!

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:25 AM

For the low notes, you will need to develop power in your 'chest voice'.

The trick to get a good extended range is to 'paste over the joins' - you have to be able to move smoothly and reliably between all 3 'voices' (normally you should have some overlap). As I said, I would recommend getting some compeent assistance. If you try to force any one part of your vocal range too far, can can do damage.

And then, of course, the 4th 'voice' is falsetto, but that has a different tone.

And then there is yodelling...

:-)

So much for most of the Traditional 'Western Styles' of vocal production...

Then there are many others...

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:41 AM

Leeneia - the version of Dainty Davey that I know only covers an octave plus one note. Not too hard to sing.

Liz - 3 octaves !! No wonder they call you the squeak.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: John Routledge
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:53 AM

Foolestroupe is spot on with his "pasting over the joints"

This involves singing up and down repeatedly over any joint.

Very boring but very effective.

Similarly with notes at the top and bottom of your range.

I think that I have a recording of a workshop demonstrating this.

Will try to locate it.See you Friday.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 12:03 PM

Some of songs I have difficulty with are:


Tibbie Dunbar

&

@displaysong.cfm?SongID=1309

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 12:16 PM

Tibbie Dunbar
Robert Burns (last 2 verses by Jim McLean)


Chorus; O, wilt thou go wi' me, sweet Tibbie Dunbar
O, wilt thou go wi' me, sweet Tibbie Dunbar?
Wilt thou ride on a horse, or be drawn in a car,
Or walk by my side, sweet Tibbie Dunbar?



I care na thy daddie, his lands and his money;
I care na thy kin, sae high and sae lordly;
But say that thou'lt hae me for better or waur,
And come in thy coatie, sweet Tibbie Dunbar.



Chorus

I offer you nothing of silver or land,
What man can determine the price of your hand
But g'in your consent we'd be richer by far
Oh walk by me side sweet Tibbie Dunbar



Chorus



Oh wilt thou become a poor beggars lady
To sleep in the heather rolled up in my plaidie
The sky for a roof and your candle a star
And our love for your fire sweet Tibbie Dunbar..



Chorus.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:23 PM

All the advice is good--but I am really curious as to what the song is--there are relatively few songs in the pop/folk/traditional realms that would give a working performer the kind of problem you are having--if it was a women's song, maybe, because we of the male persuasion tend to have a narrower useable range--there's always the chance that you are trying to sing a note that doesn't really need to be there--



My tip, late and for what it's worth, is to find a recording of it by a male singer who does not have a particularly strong voice, and copy--as he(or his producer) will have figured out a way to get it to sound good--

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Genie
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:41 PM

One song that can pose this kind of problem is Bob Wills's "Faded Love" -- at least if you do Patsy Cline's arrangement. She does the chorus an octave higher than the verse.

Of course, you can do what I usually do (unless I'm in especially good voice that day), which is to simply sing the verse and chorus in the same range.   Then the song becomes easy to sing, but it loses a lot of its special sound in the transposition.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:23 PM

I've a tape version of Paddy Reilly doing 'Coming of the Roads' & he manages it all ok.


Luke Kelly's version of 'Tibby Dunbar' is a bit strainy in parts- but on the whole, he carries it all off well.

wish i could do same- sob!

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Nick
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:34 AM

I seem to remember reading an interview where Ian Matthews (then of Matthews Southern Comfort) said that he changed the notes of Woodstock when they recorded it as he couldn't manage the range of Joni Mitchell's original. He got away with it enough to get a number 1 record in UK

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:10 PM

And some people (a lot of the more commercial ones today, especially) add many more difficult notes to a song, just to show off. Joe Cocker did with "With a Little Help from My Friends", just so he could go into conniptions on stage.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 03:07 PM

Jeremiah ~ "He'll Have To Go" is a great song, isn't it? I used to sing it pretty regularly, but have half-forgotten about it in recent years. I'm glad to be reminded!

I think part of what makes it so hard to hit that low note on the word "low" is that there's such a sudden drop in pitch at that point ~ you have to shift your vocal gears very quickly. In the phrase "turn the jukebox / way down low," the word "way" is sung on one of the highest-piched notes in the song, while the note for "low" is way down at the bottom. I always thought that it would be easier to sing that note more gracefully more often if the song allowed you to get down into the deep register gradually.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:03 PM

So that is why you practice those sort of jumps a lot - and any Opera Singer...

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Gray D
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:31 PM

If you are using amplification and mikes, try singing much more quietly than usual and let the technology take the strain. This can give you access to a wider range then when you are trying to sing everything at concert pitch and concert volume unamplified. You will need to take care with your pitching, though, as too much amplification can make one sing a little sharp. Find any "break" points in your range and practice singing through them without glitches - tricky, but can be learned.

If you are not using amplification follow the tips from the others above, or find yourself an amenable singing coach (the right one can be worth their weight in gold), and keep practicing.

Good luck,

Gray D

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:18 AM

I wish to echo Gray D's remark about a singing coach/voice teacher.

In the mid 1960s, I was directed to Julio Barocol (sp?). My voice had been stripping frequently and my throat was shot. Three lessons with him and I never again had that problem. He showed me how to hit some higher notes (I am a medium-high tenor) without having my voice 'crack'. I can't recall what the cost was in money--substantial I think, but it was worth ten times that. After seing Mr B, I was able to sing four sets a night, six days a week without having voice problems. Much has to do with the abdomen and stomach muscles, control of the larynx muscles and proper breathing. I recall having to practice some scales and certain 'loud' sounds. I am aware this info doesn't help you much, but please consider Gray's advice. Promise, it won't be a waste of your time.

As an incidental thing, something I learned from Pat Sky: you can increase the intensity of your voice by finding the key in which you're 'comfortable', and then raising that key by one tone. Best of luck to you, Mr Happy.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: OldFolkie
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:21 AM

Mr Happy

I had exactly your problem. Songs with octave and a half range or more. And I sing unplugged, so no amp to take the strain for me.

My wife was having some singing lessons a few months ago, and I went along for 2 lessons. It made a truly outstanding difference.

The main thing that made a truly astronomic difference was being taught how to shape your mouth for the vowel sounds. Sounds daft, but it really made a huge difference for me. At first I thought 'this sounds like operatic singing cr*p', but I soon found it really worked.

If you want to send me a PM with your e-address, I'll try to find the technique sheets my wife's teacher gave me, and scan them for you (can't guarantee I can find 'em, but I'll try if you want 'em).

Rgds

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:52 PM

It takes me about half an hour of intensive vocal work to warm up my voice to get anywhere near full the range I can produce.

Depending on my state of mind, mood, stress, how much I have been using the full extent of my range recently, etc, I can when cold produce about 1-1/2 - 2 octaves, but which segment of my range varies. It takes about 5-6 songs in a singaround to get going. I do all sorts of 'unforgivable things', such as changing from one range to another in successive verses (middle of a chorus), etc. This gradually 'stretches' my range. After I have finally got my 'toe rattling bass' segment going, I can start to reach the upper part of my tenor range (I can actually reach higher notes than some women singers!).

But I have to swap between upper and lower ranges for a while until things are fully warm, or else I get strain. Even then, I am more comfortable with varying the area of my range I use for successive songs - it eases the strain, and using one part of the extremities of my range seems to rest the other part. This also works in a song - one of the reasons I prefer ensemble work rather than solo work.

Now I can do a bit of this on my own, in the car on the way, but until I can pull out the stops and "let 'er rip" at full volume, things don't warm up properly - trying to push too hard too fast causes strain.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 02:39 PM

do'nt force it-sing from your diaphragm and ease the notes out, with slighlty less pressure than the others-works for me when I sing high harmonies.Its all in the breathing.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:20 AM

Poppagator, I also think a lot depends on the nature of the jumps more than on the total range. E.g., one song I have a lot of trouble with is the pop song Spanish Eyes. The range is about the same as The Star Spangled Banner -- a song I can sing in several different keys with no problem -- or maybe slightly less. But there's an octave jump, followed by a half step down, and unless I'm in really good voice and well practiced on that song, I end up going off key on the half-step down note or the jumped-to high note, or both.   Either that, or I have to key it down to where you can't hear my low notes.

There are other songs that use almost 2 octaves that I find easier to sing.

I guess the advice about practicing the jumps and transitions is worth heeding!

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:01 AM

Trust me - I'm a Foole.

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Alice
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:18 PM

Go to a good voice teacher to develop your range. Do-it-yourself attempts to force a change can seriously/permanently damage your voice. It's not worth ruining your ability to sing. Send me a PM on the subject if you wish.

See these threads for more info:
Threads on the Singing Voice, Click here

Alice

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: Alice
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

Here is part of something I posted back in '99 in the thread about extending range.
Hope it helps.
I suggest that a teacher is needed because every person is unique in how they misuse their voice and a teacher needs to SEE as well as hear what you are doing with your body when you sing in order to correct you in a way that will build your ability without damaging the vocal folds. Reading about these techniques when you don't know what you are doing right or wrong makes it difficult to understand what to change.

---
Every serious singer has to learn how to get over the passagio of the ranges of their voice so there isn't a noticeable break. This isn't something that
you can change by reading tips. You need a good voice teacher to learn how to do this. To really learn this, you have to take lessons in person with
someone, since this is a gradual building of ability in technique. The higher notes of the range of your vocal cords will be developed in tone and
control with the correct technique and consistent ongoing practice (it's a muscle thing, just like a dancer or athlete). Backing off is the way to get the
higher notes, not forcing them or trying to sing loudly. You have to develop the breath techniques that support the flow of air past the vocal cords,
and when you have good control of that, it is like threading a needle and then smoothly letting the sound flow through the vocal cord space. One
technique that is basic in vocal training is to sing one note on a vowel sound (oo, or ah) and begin quietly, building to forte, then returning to quiet,
all on one breath. With good breath support, the lift of the soft palate at the roof of the mouth (pretend you're saying something with a french
accent, you will feel the lift) and then GENTLY and softly letting the air pass through as you sing a high note, you will eventually extend your
range and control. If you blast or jam the breath, you will get a terrible tone, even if you hit the note, and you will not be doing good things to your
voice. You can get loud volume with flooding the sound with air that is controlled and supported, not by blasting it.

alice

Subject: RE: Singing Problems: Hi/Low notes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:02 PM

I'm with Alice.

I once was at a drama holiday school, when a little lady about 5 ft 2 in stood on a chair to get attention. She was a school teacher, by the way. Her projection was such that she made the rafters ring - it was certainly loud, and she was NOT shouting.