Ten Years of RIVERDANCE

Subject: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 05:41 PM

I have just been watching a programme on TV about the show Riverdance,
now ten years old.
Like many I first saw this show on Eurovision Song Contest after Ireland had won with an almost presentable song the year before.
The break after all the songs is usually a relief to get your mind back to normal, but I was not expecting what followed.A performance of Irish dance that had me leaping up in the air after it finished with tears in my eyes.I can understand many who will say it is too choreographed,but it has represented Irish culture all over the world
and is a credit to those performers,musicians and back stage staff who have performed it.I saw this show at Hammersmith and it was great.
I am not Irish, but I do like tradition and Irish dance and folk dance in general is stronger for this show.
Al

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:14 PM

I remember very well the night in May 1995 when I had purposely organised a party in my back garden to try and keep people away from the television and the trash which is the Eurovision Song Contest. You think 'Riverdance' (which grew from the interval act) has represented Irish 'culture' all over the world. Well, its follow-up 'Lord Of The Dance' certainly misrepresented English culture by failing to credit Sydney Carter who composed the words of this song to the Shaker tune 'Simple Gifts'.

On the day when English people (to say nothing of the rest of the world) give as much recognition and acclaim to their own traditional arts (possibly represented by a performance involving Morris Offspring and the English Acoustic Collective), I just might begin to rejoice. In the meantime, I remain pissed off at the astounding ignorance of those who dub any traditional music of these islands they might encounter as, inevitably, 'Irish'.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:00 PM

Ten years, eh? Feels like fifty... ;-)

The only good thing I can say about this overproduced piece of bombast is that it may have led some people to seek out real Irish music. But I have no proof of that.

Recently posted on TheSession.org in a thread on "Origins of Irish Music":
"Everybody knows that Bill Whelan invented Irish music, right?"

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:04 PM

Just remembered this, also from a thread on TheSession.org:

Some folks were sitting in a public place playing Irish tunes. A lady walked up and said: "When are you going to play some Irish music?"

Musician: "We are playing Irish music."

Lady: "No you're not. I saw Riverdance, and this is not Irish music!"

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:45 PM

Ten years of Riverdance... oughta be a parole hearing coming up soon.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:33 AM

Riverdance was so cultural   eh, it originaly included Dave Richardson's great tune ' Caliope House ' but when Bill Whelan found out he had to pay royalties on it, it was dropped.

eric

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:50 AM

On an archaeological dig near the hill of Tara in the Irish republic a wooden chest was discovered buried within the area encompassed by the original mud walled house that was believed by archaeologists to have stood on the site. The chest was taken back to Trinity College Dublin where after being photographed from all angles it was carefully opened. Inside was a roll of vellum bound with the remains of a hand woven grass tie, this was carefully unrolled after being treated to prevent it cracking. Once opened it was discovered to be the long missing second volume of a book on Irish traditional dancing entitled "What to do with your hands".
Giok

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:53 AM

I took Manitas to see the show as a birthday treat, and it was incredible.... much MUCH better than we'd been lead to believe. So much variety, so many talented performers other than Michael Flatfoot and so many men in tight leather trousers.....

However... when we bought the soundtrack - guess what..... there was no stepping. There was all the music, all the amazing performances by the musicians (including the Ubiquitous Stefan Hannigan) but no stepping. Listening to 'Riverdance', without the stepping is like ventriloquism on the radio..... like paddling with your wellies on... like sex without the flying helmet..... like a pencil without lead... no point.

LTS

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 04:41 AM

Me and my co-set-dancers were asked if we would do a bit of a floor spot recently for a international dance evening in a local church. Despite the lack of a bar, we got 8 willing people togther and even washed our faces and put on skirts (the women). While waiting to go on, the minister came up to us and said "ahh, you're the dancers - would you like to go and get changed?". I think they were expecting Flatley-esque regalia and high kicking line ups. Curse Riverdance and their musical riffs! Unfortunately they got a much more flat-footed Plain Set on a very slippy floor.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:28 AM

Could Gilbert and Sullivan have written Riverdance? They did such a good job with Japanese culture in the Mikado. Or mabe, since Buffalo Bill did all those culturally sensitive Wild West shows, he could have had a crack at it.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: JulieF
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM

As a one off piece of theatre the Riverdance at the eurovision song contest was wonderful.   It was not too different from what I had seen produced by talent irish dance coreographers before then but had the advantage of having a large number of talented dancers of roughly the same ability and height !   Main problem planning dance displays children improve or lose interest and they all grow at differnent rates which can make lineups look strange.

The main problem was that it then became the norm. The teachers who had previously stuck to certain tunes just switched to the tunes from the shows. All dancing had to be done hand on hip rather than by the sides, all dresses were short and black, no matter the age of the kids ( although there are some who would say that this was an improvement on competition dresses, wigs etc). The talented display coregraphers were under pressure from parents, children and public expectations to follow suit.   Saying that, it did bring quite a lot of boys into Irish dancing.

The problem with something that becomes very popular very suddenly is that it defines a narrow norm and assumptions are made about a whole range of things.

From the kids point of view suddenly something they were doing was cool and it was fun to see them revel in the interest of their friends.

J

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Den
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:59 AM

Riverdance in my oppinion was a fantastic piece of entertainment pure and simple. I think we can all get carried away attaching all kinds of labels to these types of performances. Cultural? What the fuck is Irish culture anymore? Who knows? Its been evolving for thousands of years. Have you been to Ireland lately? I think one of the things that gets up the noses of the detractors is that its the Irish doing something well, again.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 11:26 AM

Surely the promotion of Irish Dance,the creation of worldwide interest in Irish music and the children now thinking their traditional dance is cool is proof enough of the success of this stage production.It has also for the first time provided employment for traditional Irish dancers.
It must be raising the standard of dance in Ireland,even though the hands may be in the wrong place.
It would be impossible to please the pure tradition lovers, but many move on from interest to pure tradition.
This was exactly the reaction from certain people during the rise of interest in English Folk music, it was the traditionalist trying to ram thirty verse tunes down the throats of the general public that eventually drove them away.Luckily the radio stations in Ireland provide balanced programmes which includes their traditional music.
We had our chance a blew it.
Al

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: GUEST,Texas
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

What does it matter the source? Riverdance opened my eyes to my own heritage and from that I decided to add Irish folksongs to my little show back in '98. Alas, I have since performed at a few Irish festivals around the country and Irish pubs all over the country.
I saw Riverdance eighteen times and would see it again in a heartbeat.
Because of Riverdance I have sought out Christy Moore, and Altan, and Makem & Clancy, and The Chieftians, and Mary Black and a ton of other great Irish artists pop and folk. What's not to like?

Riverdance has also kept a fair number of dancing folks working (not to mention the great travel opportunity) which, according to the several touring dancers I've spoken with they would not be doing without Riverdance for lack of venues - contests and teaching would be their only outlet without the tour. So what's not to like?
Here's to another ten years of Riverdance!

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 04:14 PM

thirty verse tunes

Alan Day: by this I assume you are making a slighting reference to England's traditional ballad heritage. The 'general public' is generally unaware that this even exists - not because of some nebulous 'traditionalist' (whatever that is) having tried and failed to 'ram it down their throats' but because three generations of 'educators' have instilled scorn and ridicule of it into them (viz 'fingers in ears' and silly, drunken morris dancing 'jokes').

What Riverdance has served to perpetuate is the myth that absolutely any step/formation/ritual dance and its accompanying music (however unauthentic) has just got to be Irish because there is nothing else in these islands. I am equally bored and incensed by the ignorance that cursorily dismisses the music I love as 'Irish', not because I have anything against the Irish tradition but because I don't play anything from it. I am English and thus advocate a greater awareness of my own traditional arts. But it goes surely without saying that I would regard with horror any Riverdance-type attempt to bowdlerise them.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Alan Day
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:55 PM

Thank you for your reply Countess Richard and I can see from your reply that you did not see the show, which does depict Irish dance but also American Tap dance,Spanish and Europian dancers.As I said in my introduction that some would not like the dancing and traditionists in particular. Surely any production even with music and dance styles which are not traditional,but which creates interest in the music and dance we both enjoy is worth persuing and not dismissing out of hand.
The way ahead may be this type of approach.
Martyn Windham Reed every Christmas packs out Crawley leasure centre with "Maypoles to Mistletoe" featuring traditional songs,Morris Dancers etc So the general public can be reached.It requires the type of thought and production that started Riverdance.
You may not think so but I am a traditional music lover ,but also all types of music.I can understand your views but they seem rather narrow minded.
Al

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 06:56 PM

Seen Riverdance. Seen Maypoles to Mistletoe. Neither are examples of traditional arts in the community but stage shows for commercial entertainment (though I am loathe to include MWR in the same category as the mish-mash which is Riverdance). Suffice to say that the two productions lie at either end of the scale of 'public spectacles', a concept which ultimately, however, holds little interest for me. What does interest me is reversing the educational trend of at least the past half century in England which has caused people to disrespect and ridicule their cultural heritage. I would suggest that turning them on to such commercialised abominations as the Chieftains' more recent output or the mangled lyrics of the warbling Ms Black is scarcely the way. I would like to see them rather understand and value the music and dance that has gone before and, eventually, to add to it themselves in the context of a restored awareness of sense of place.   One way forward might be through schools and workshops such as those which MWR runs, and for them to emulate musicians such as those in his No Man's Band.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM

Ten Years of RIVERDANCE.... I bet they're pretty damn tired then!

~S~

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 11:38 PM

I get so damn tired of elitist bullshit, and whining purists from England who insist that the whole world is ignorant of true culture except for them. This is not to imply that all English folks are this way, in fact most that I know are great folkies who love all different musical forms. Riverdance was never meant to be all that Irish music and dance is. It is simply a wonderful stage show, with amazing musicians and dancers. The cultural base is Irish, with tips of the hat to other musical traditions and dances. It shows the commonality.

Countess Richard, if you would like to sit down with this "plastic paddy" and discuss the fine points of the various musical styles from your part of the world, you should pack a lunch. Your comments seem to imply that only you and a few other of the chosen have the real handle on this, and can distinguish between these various types. I will bet you think we all wear cowboy hats, shoot indians, and give money to the IRA, eh? If the world doesn't know the joy of your culture, who's fault is that? In the meantime, you just keep on kicking the Irish for exposing theirs, OK? Hell, it has been going on for more centuries.

Lighten up. It is a great show, well produced. It makes no claims to be anything more than that.

By the way, I hate to be picky, but Lord of the Dance was not a follow up to Riverdance. It was a completely separate production started by Michael Flatley. The rumors are rife as to why he left Riverdance, but it is this "plastic paddy"'s opinion that he didn't like the show being about the dance and music. He wanted it to be about him. Jean Butler was his equal and a star in her own right. The show celebrated others and he didn't like this. I think his ego started Lord. When I saw it, I was entertained but not impressed. I never recommended it to anyone.

Mick

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:27 AM

My biggest issue with the whole Riverdance/Lord of the Dance/Feet of Flames stuff is the assumption that bigger = better. 10 people dancing in unison is nice to see. 20 is nice as well, but really not much better That's what many dancers specialize in - a line of dancing all alike. Get a total of 100 doing it isn't any more special than 10. All you've done is create a spectacle, which is fine if that's what you're going for, but the auto accident on Interstate 4 I had to pass yesterday also created a spectacle.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:21 AM

Big Mick, you have a serious comprehension problem. I do not 'kick' the Irish. I grew up with Irish sessions, there being little else around. I later reported from the Six Counties on matters both political and musical and played with American Old Timey musicians. I am not now involved in either Irish or American music but with, predominantly, English and European. It matters far less to me that people from your continent, however you stereotype yourselves, know little or nothing of English music and traditional arts which are my passion than the ignorance of my own compatriots. I note that you describe yourself as a 'plastic paddy'. You would find yourself in good company next March 17 here when vast numbers (regardless of origin) wear silly hats, drink green beer and continue apace to deny that an indigenous culture of their own even exists. It is scarcely helpful to suggest that all will be well if only we'd all go and gawp at some manufactured, commercial spectacle of 'entertainment' with no relevance whatsoever to our own cultural roots and little to anyone else's. And if (heaven forbid) anyone had the appalling notion of concocting a 'Merrie England'-type extravananza misrepresenting and diluting English traditional dance (as I dread to think just might be in someone's mind with the Olympics looming), I would be equally dismissive.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 03:16 AM

Think of it as Ballinasloe meets Busby Berkeley. I tend to agree with the thesis that 100 dancers is 10 times worse than 10 alone. But I think the mistake that can be made is to take it seriously, it is designed to draw in loads of punters not to glorify Irish culture. It has been tried with English culture[see Ashley Hutchings]and it has been tried on Scots culture [see Brigadoon], and haven't there been a million cowboy movies celebrating US culture.
If people come up to you and say they loved Riverdance the best thing to do would be to say "Well if you liked that, then have you heard this?" don't despise them for their 'narrow' view help them broaden it. Very few of us grew up immersed in our own folk culture and we acquired it on our way through life. So think of that when you feel inclined to laugh up your sleeve at other people's misconceptions.
Giok

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:49 AM

Hey Big Mick, Eric Bogle wrote a song about you, ' Plastic Paddy '.

eric

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:54 AM

Is it that artists are making money with these productions that you do not like Countess?
I just cannot understand your argument,you say you have seen Maypoles to Mistletoe this for people who have not seen it is a collection of mainly traditional songs representing the different seasons and includes The Broadwood Morris men etc during the May section.I have appeared in this show playing for Broadwood,it does not get more traditional than this.My old mate Jim Farr does a couple of Monologes and links each section with poetry.It is not a big stage production,people are charged to get in as they do in Folk Clubs.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:23 AM

I did put Maypoles to Mistletoe at the top end of non-participatory public spectacles, albeit with reluctance to place it in the same category as Riverdance at all. I didn't say I didn't like it, just that it was not of great interest to me as I was learning nothing new. What it isn't is traditional arts in the community. It is a commercial package, a shop window, to display some of what remains of our cultural heritage and it does this better than most. But 'at the end of the day', it is nothing more than 'entertainment' and stops short of saying 'this is yours to inherit, to learn more about, to teach what you know and, eventually, add to it yourselves'.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:06 PM

Allright, I over-reacted, and apologize for the tone of the post. But I stand by the contention that folks are all together to quick to criticize something that simply is an entertaining show with its roots in Irish culture. countess richard, your comments implied to me, and forgive me if I got it wrong, some kind of resentment about Irish culture. It seems I hear this a lot, now that it is popular.
I described myself as a "plastic paddy" (note the quotes) because that is the generalization I hear over and over from elitists on the other side of the pond. The fact is that it is not the sole province of the States, as your post indicates. I am just as bothered by it as I would imagine you are when Americans of Irish descent speak about "Brits" as if they were all a homogenous bunch of folks running around wearing bowler hats and calling each other "old chap". Among the circles I travel in we would never be seen wearing some of the things you describe, play pretty mean trad music, understand the history and techniques, and understand, at various levels of competency, the language/dialects of the land of our grandparents.

I think that what gets lost in the various discussions we have on this subject is that Americans are a melting pot of various cultures, which seems to cause many folks to hold on to the stories of relatives of where they came from. While this certainly occurs in other cultures it seems to be at a very high level in the USA. And it continues to this day with Latinos, Pacific Rim peoples, etc. Somehow it seems to me that this is lost on Europeans.

Eric, if your comment was tongue in cheek, pretty funny. If it was serious, kiss my plastic paddy ass. BTW, I drink brown beer, never understood the green thing.

countess richard, I used a tone that was uncalled for. For that I hope you will accept my sincere apology. I need to be more careful about posting when I am in a hurry and in a foul mood.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:40 AM

Just a bit of fun Mick, like Eric's song.

Subject: RE: Ten Years of RIVERDANCE
From: s&r
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:34 AM

Plastic Paddy Lyrics

We saw Riverdance at the Point in Dublin - one of the best stage shows ever IMO; enthusiasm effort and skill. Traditional? Don't really care.

Stu