BS: more hurricane warnings

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:19 PM

Things were not as bad here in inland northwest Florida as the weather folks had predicted yesterday afternoon. It's been 30 to 50 MPH winds with sporadic heavy rains, but no damage and no new trees down that I can tell. Power's even stayed on except for about a two-hour spell this afternoon.

Naturally, it's been worse down on the coastal and bayfront areas where winds were higher and there was a not inconsiderable storm surge. Half of Pensacola is without power and some of the southwestern areas are badly flooded. Katrina was a very large storm. Pensacola is 200 miles from New Orleans and definitely did not ecape Scot-free. We've had other storms come much closer and scarcely shake a leaf.

Our thoughts are with our neighbors in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Burke
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:49 PM

WDSU is currently showing some pictures from the air. The flooding in some areas of New Orleans is truly awful. Many, many homes age destroyed. There are some fires that cannot be reached.

This is really bad.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Janie
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM

PoppaGator,

We are holding vigil for the safe return of you and your family to your home.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: nutty
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 03:53 AM

CNN this morning ........ reports coming in that a levee has been breached between New Orleans and Lake Ponchetrain and that flood water in the city is rising at an alarming rate.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Kaleea
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:14 AM

My nephew heard from his relatives with a nightclub in the French Quarter & it's OK so far, but there have been looters about. With all the loss, I have never understood how "fellow" humans can take what little others have left after such a disaster. Meanwhile, those who have food & shelter are sharing with others who have not-even strangers.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

Fox reports that the water is still rising in New Orleans and that martial law has been declared. 750,000 people in Lousiana are without power, possibly 500,000 in Mississippi and Alabama.

Everyone still in N.O. is urged to leave.

Last night, CNN's Jeanne Meserve, a tough reporter who usually covers the State Department and Pentagon, found it hard to speak while trying to describe the scene in N.O. to Larry King.

Will keep my fingers crossed for Poppagator and everyone else caught up in this disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:55 AM

They are just beginning to realize how bad this one is. Saying "it could have been worse" is cold comfort to hundreds of thousands who have suffered loss of homes, property and loved ones.

Even in New Orleans, which escaped a super-catastrophic hit, there is little comfort, as there is no safe drinking water and 40,000-60,000 homes flooded to the roof, besides all the wind damage. Coastal Mississippi DID get a catastrophic hit. Places like Bay St. Louis barely exist any more.

I hope many will find relative safety and decent temporary lodging until it can all be sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:15 AM

CNN: Towns "reduced to ruins."

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Burke
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:40 PM

Yesterday, when the eye missed the city, it seemed like 'it could have been worse.' Since the levee break contiunes to add to the flooding one can think the disaster could have taken a different form but it's as bad or worse than it could have been.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 03:17 PM

Fox News: Water continues to flood into N.O. from broken levees, "water waste-deep around the Superdome," "bodies floating in water everywhere," "N.O. no longer a functioning city. There is no power, no drinking water, no food, no sanitation," no prospects of relief "for weeks."

N.O. "will not have power for at least two months." "Homes are wiped out for hundreds of miles." Plaquemine Parish "is no longer there."

Mayor: "This is so much bigger than all of our fears, that we cannot tell you how bad it is....A disaster the outside world has not yet seen or heard about and cannot comprehend."

A mighty day.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: nutty
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 03:32 PM

Some scenes are very reminiscent of the aftermath of the Tsunami. Its difficult to realise that the neighbourhood ever existed.

One reporter on the TV was speaking from what he said was "the only street in New Orleans that wasn't flooded" but he was doubtful that it would remain that way as the water was still rising.

Much concern now about the distribution of fuel (at least one refinery has been put out of production) and natural gas.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:36 PM

We had been thinking about moving down somewhere along the Alabama or Mississippi coast. Right now, I'm very glad we didn't. After a 30 foot storm surge swept as much as a mile inland in the area around Biloxi, and has probably killed hundreds of people and destroyed whole neighborhoods and towns, that area is going to be a catastrophic mess for a long, long time.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:55 PM

Interstate 10 east out of N.O. towards Slidell (over Lake Ponchetraine) was a two-piece causeway with two lanes on each part. One side is almost totally gone, the other has many breaks in it....This one of the major evacuation routes people were using Sunday....

80% of N. Orleans is now underwater from a levee breach on the lake side, and water is rising into the ground floors of most structures that were dry yesterday.

Reading back to earlier parts of the thread, I'd venture that if PoppaGators home is indeed above the levee and remaining dry, it is probably occupied now by someone...and possibly looted, also.

I hate being right sometimes.

This is day two....there is so much more sadness and frustration and misery yet unreported, and it will only get worse before it get better as they try to figure out where to put people as they rescue them.

New Orleans has NO water, NO food supplies beyond what can be looted as canned goods or just 'found'. It will be hard just supplying the emergency workers.....and of course, NO sanitary facilities. If you could feed everyone, there are not enough portapotties in the state....and nowhere to empty them when they're full.

They are looking at filling the major levee breach with giant sandbags, and IF sucessful, making holes in OTHER parts of the levees to drain water out! (This is exactly what they had to do in 1947 when our house had water in it for 2 weeks).....

There will be NO electricity for months, except for generators....and thus NO A.C. in hot, steamy weather. In a few days, the smell will be horrible. (I remember walking down the street on the one day I accompanied my mother to our ruined house, and noticing that everything was covered with about ¼" of a black, slippery slime from the oily residue that settled when the water finally receeded.)(The water was 'only' about 18" deep in our house, so we salvaged a few things...and our floorboards did not curl up and float away, as happened to some of our neighbors...some of these houses are under water up to the roof!)


Then, there's Mississippi, which got hit hard..........

sorry to sound so depressed, but the implications of this disaster are barely beginning to penetrate our heads .....on 9-11, in New York, one area was hit hard, and then they cleaned it up, with many services back up in days. In Florida, after Andrew, they sent in trucks with food, ice, and tents....in New Orleans, there is no place to put tents, no roads for trucks, and no easy way to feed people, even if all the food needed is brought near!

The news agencies are beginning to make the point that Hurricane Camille, in 1969, wasn't as wide, and there was not as much development on the shoreline...no casinos, no luxury condos on stilts right at the waterline or on islands. Someone HAS to decide not to allow them to rebuild there!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM

Bill, is there a possibility that rather than try to feed and house the home-torn people in the area, they will simply remove them to points farther north and east and west while they try to bring a semblance of sanity and coherence out of the chaos in the stricken regions?

I made the point to a friend that even though the situation makes one feel like rushing down there to help, it would be totally counter productive- they have too many people there already.

In a delicious bit of irony I saw on the news that Venezuelan President Chavez made an offer to help:

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered to send food and fuel to the United States after the powerful Hurricane Katrina pummeled the US south, ravaging US crude production.

"The leftist leader, a frequent critic of the United States and a target himself of US disapproval, said Venezuela could send aid workers with drinking water, food and fuel to US communities hit by the hurricane.

"We place at the disposition of the people of the United States in the event of shortages -- we have drinking water, food, we can provide fuel," Chavez told reporters.

"Chavez said fuel could be sent to the United States via a Citgo refinery that has not been affected by the hurricane. Citgo is owned by Venezuela's state-owned oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA)."

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 05:10 PM

Countless hundreds of people are in attics with water up to rafters.
Those without an ax to cut a hole in the roof are trapped.
The night of the hurricane a correspondent was trying to tell people if they retreat to an attic be sure to bring an ax and water ... but he was cut off by an arrogant CNN bottle blonde to announce the current barometric pressure and he not allowed to elaborate or stress the importence of attic survival.

Meaningful survival tips like those were woefully missing from the 24 hour cable news networks.

Yesterday was the day for public officials to congratulate each other.
From here on, the reality of poor public planning will become glaringly evident.

Cell phone batteries and supplies are now nearly gone for those holding on for rescue.
The mayor of New Orleans has called for people to volunteer any flat boats so a search and rescue for those south of the city to be found as soon as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 05:38 PM

Nutty, your comment about the Indonesian tsunami reminds me of a comment in nn article I read on the MSNBC website (NBC news service). Here's the excerpt:

The biggest known cluster of      s was at the Quiet Water Beach apartments in Biloxi, a red-brick beachfront complex of about 100 units. Harrison County, Miss., emergency operations center spokesman Jim Pollard said about 30 people died there.

"This is our tsunami," Mayor A. J. Holloway told The Biloxi Sun Herald.

This really annoyed me when I read it. Yes, Katrina was an extremely destructive hurricane, but I don't think it can be compared with the scope of devastation wrought by The Tsunami -- and to do so trivializes the tragedy of The Tsunami and the plight of its victims.

One big difference is that The Tsunami almost literally came out of nowhere, whereas everybody in Katrina's path had plenty of warning that a category 5 hurricane was headed for their coastline and they had plenty of "lead time" to save themselves. When I see the video clips of Katrina's victims being rescued from their rooftops, or hear or read the kinds of reports quoted by Amos (29 Aug 05, 03:31 PM), I want to tear out hair in frustration. What part of "mandatory evacuation" did these people not understand?!???! By staying in their houses, they purposely endangered not only their own lives but the lives of their rescuers and in some cases the lives of their children -- auugghh! -- for what? For the sake of their possessions? (...and here I'm including the house itself as a possession) Heck, let the police and the insurance companies deal with the looters, if there's anything left to loot, and get out of town while the gettin's good. The cliche "Better safe than sorry" never applied better.

Likewise I fail to understand complaints of the evacuees that authorities aren't letting them go back to their homes (or the sites thereof) right after the storm. Hello, this is a disaster, and it ain't over yet -- flood levels rose the next day (and you'd think local residents would understand about breaches in their levees better than anybody!). I guess this is the "denial" phase of post-traumatic stress.

From this remove (southeastern Pennsylvania, where we very seldom get even a tornado), I just don't understand the mindset of people who make their homes in areas where they're likely to be destroyed by an act of nature, and then seem to be surprised when nature is about to act and upset when it actually does act. I mean, to me, the history of these areas IS a hurricane warning.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 06:08 PM

Ebbie...yes, I don't doubt that every effort will be made to remove people from the area...as soon as they can be reached and a place found for them...many of whom have no place to go.

In 1947, we spent several weeks at Jackson Barracks, a military base, which may not be usable at this time.

I suspect that places like military bases in Texas, Arkansas, etc...will be looked at for emergency housing as the waters recede. Where DO you put a million people whose homes may not be available for months...if ever? Entire businesses will go under as a result of this, and many people will end up moving to other parts of the country and trying to fit in.

The mind boggles at trying to predict the waves of fall-out from this! (How about Bush using this as a way to speed up oil drilling in ANWR?)

Did you see pictures of gulf oil drilling platforms which had been torn loose and washed ashore, one of them hitting a bridge?

...and many more deaths to be reported as searches are made, just as happened in the Tsunami

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

SharonA, I don't think you fully understand the situation.

While the tsunami death toll and devastation was certainly far greater than Katrina's, "tsunami" is the only word we have to describe a hundred-mile wide wall of water 25 feet high that inundates an entire city, perhaps for months, and floods out a million people. If a large (not giant) earthquake in the Gulf of Mexico had sent a tsunami to the coast, the results would have been similar.

As for the people who stayed behind, many have no vehicles and nowhere to go. Others are hospital and emergency workers who had to stay. Many were too sick to leave. Others believed God would protect them. Others just don't believe anything "politicians" say.

Many of those who did escape are now homeless, jobless, moneyless.

Be humbled by the fact that it could just as easily been you, or any of us, caught in this catastrophe.

I made as big a donation as I can afford to the American Red Cross, and I urge all Mudcatters to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM

Actually, Bill, unless there were two rigs to hit bridges it wasn't washed ashore. It was towed in as a precaution and broke its moorings in the Mobile River. Fortunately, the bridge that it hit, the Cochrane Bridge, is not a primary means in and out of Mobile proper. Most people use the tunnel on Interstate 10. The notable exception is that hazardous material carriers, such as gasoline tanker trucks, aren't allowed to use the tunnel and have to use the Cochrane. If it's damaged, tanker trucks will have a serious detour to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 06:59 PM

indeed, GWT....donations are going to be needed for quite awhile. And, yes....this WAS a small scale (compared to last Dec) Tsunami. There were some foolish people who should have left, but the scale of devastation is no less for their foolishness, and the need now is planning, work and aid...not blame.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

From the blogsphere:

"The extent of this event has not dawned on most media and public.

UNLESS I am misinformed, power outages prevent draining the basin.
Power can't be restored until the basin is drained. Pump stations are
drowned, and can't be fixed until drained. Is this correct?

If it is correct, or largely correct, or even about half correct, that
water already there is there for weeks, if not months, to come.

Without housing, services, groceries, fuels of all kinds, the
population cannot return. Is that factually correct?

Emergency refugee housing for 500,000 people needs to begin getting
discussed because credit cards will be maxed in days at motel rates.

Somebody mature and in position of leadership ought to be addressing
these issues. Critisms for failure by incompetent leaders comes later,
but there's no saving their hide when that time does arrive.

New Orleans is broken, unlivable at this moment. There needs to be
planning for 500,000 homeless people for a minimum of two months.

Water damage to flooded structures requires each and every one to be
completely inspected before rehabitation. There's not enough trained
inspectors in the country to do it as fast as people might want.

Besides toilets out of order, sewer systems undoubtably overflowed.
Garbage is already reported floating in the mix. Gas station tanks have to be leaking into it.
What's in cars is leaking into the waters.
Corpses will be decomposing -- many dead abandoned pets to say the
least. This stinking mudd sludge is coating insides aand outsides of
80% of the building's, at least on the ground floor.

Water and power cannot be restored before the water is drained. Broken
mains compromise water purity.

The workforce which operates the port and refineries has no place to
live. Fuels are hit in a powerful way, as is major commerce.

This is the biggest tragedy of your lifetimes.
Those who prepared their minds early are best able to cope with the dimensions of it.
For now, the stock market has not responded, the major media is brain-fogged, and politicians at all levels above mayors seem not to have got the message yet.

If you are functional. first act is to spread this word.
New Orleans is mortally wounded.
This is not hyperbole, but reasoned conclusion based on facts
verified by people on the ground and reverified by multiple sources."


I'm so relieved to have just heard a dear friend from the Big Easy made it safely to Memphis with her family, and even found lodging. It's been a rough couple days since I heard from her last. And now, reading the above, that sense of relief feels almost shameful...

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:24 PM

Yes Guy who thinks, Sharon may have been speaking out of frustration.

Many of the people who lived below New Orleans and had a car, sat in stand still traffic for SEVEN hours and with the prospect of no gas in thier tanks or at the gas stations MANY just turned around and went home.

The puny optional evacuation warning on Friday weakened the mandatory warning that followed on Sat.

While I am on a rant here, lets all decide to not name Hurricaines with sweet names like Trina, Priscilla, Heidi... if we must use feminine names lets name them Gertrude etc. Best of all I think we would get people's attention with names like Mother fucker, or Holy Shit.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM

It's August 30, just two days away from payday for many. But getting that paycheck may be all but impossible without a big bank and direct deposit and a system in place far enough away to not be impacted so the money can be transferred. Smaller employers are going to be wiped out and unable to locate employees let alone pay them.

Want to bet the region will be descended upon by those human vermin offering the usury devices known as "pay day loans" that go for around 400% to start with? It's not only going to be difficult to get anything financial done to help the survivors, it's going to be hard for them to resist the immediate offers of VERY expensive cash.

However, debit cards won't work, checks won't work, and anything but cash isn't going to work.

The ripple effect in surrounding states has hit already. There are many people as far as the Dallas and Fort Worth area finding lodging and places for their pets. Gas went up 25 cents a gallon here today.

Pouring durable good resources into donation banks is going to be a fruitless effort for a while because the distribution network isn't in place. They're going to have to set up refugee camps to bring people out of the city to and offer the donations there.

It is like the tsunami. Very much so.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:35 PM

Daylia, River Sage, those are crucial issues you pointed out.
............................................................

The Governor of Mississippi (a real good ol boy) has made his priority to deal with looters in the harshest possible way.

Way to go Gov. Barbour!!! with NO water, NO food and no relief efforts yet available, the people out scavedging are going to be shot on sight.
The pictures of looters I have seen had things like paper diapers and drinks under their arms. That is not an unreasonable petty theft under the circumstances. It certainly isn't a capital crime.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:38 PM

Even allowing for the absolutely inevitable media exaggeration, *daylia*s summary looks to be reasonably correct.

This sort of thing is worse than an ordinary earthquake, because emergency vehicles can get through to the site of an earthquake. With 80% of N.O. submerged, only boats and helicopters can bring in food and water. And only boats and helicopters can get people out.

The drinking water and sanitation crises will likely come to a head first. I hope they can be solved.

This really is the worst natural disaster in North American history. It will take a day or two for the facts to sink in.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:43 PM

That was a blog that was quoted in daylia's post--a link would be useful as part of a citation since it's someone else's assessment.



Crews Pass Dead to Reach Storm Survivors

Reuters coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 08:02 PM

Click here, SRS

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 08:11 PM

Virtually everything in SRS's AP story is vouched for by Fox and CNN.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:21 PM

Tonight I cried for Missisippi.
After 48 hours of media:
harangueing about the storm impact on gasoline prices,
slap happy reporters playing in the wind,
the mayor of New Orleans on TV saying before the storm "I don't want panic anyone",
FEMA NOAA Red Cross and Homeland Security all congratulating themselves for the best preparation for a diaster in history...

I am angry that 60% of the South's National Guard is in Iraq, I am wondering how we are going to borrow another $88 billion that was pissed away in Iraq to rebuild or even merely save 1 million people from slow death.

Moving from denial to depression to anger to acceptence that I have to do something to help. I am truely heartbroken for the deep South. It is an emotion I never expected to have.

Thoughts of ranking what North American diasters deserve #1 status are futile. Instead I praise the heros that are making rescue possible this very minute.

The time to expose the failures of city planning, FEMA, Homeland security and the whole bunch of Cable News infotainment is now so lessons can be burned into everyone's memory from the begining.

We have squandered all the borrowed money in our largest deficit in history.
Daddy has spent all our money on his gas guzzler and fighting and we don't have the cash to fix the roof.
Double the deficit? I don't think the Asian banks holding our bonds will allow it.

Any estimate you hear about what the INSURED loses will be (~ $25 to $40 billion) it is only half the actual cost.

!!The United States has never lost an entire city before!!

Face it New Orleans is lost.
It will have to rebuilt elsewhere.
Replacing the picturesque French Quarter with a brand new plastic Disney version 10 feet beneath sea level is the height of foolishness.

The loss of life is harsh. Hard choices are being made pushing the dead aside. Hard choices will have to be made to allow the original 30 miles of wetlands on the coast to return WITHOUT tract home development.

Trent Lott said yesterday "It is wonderful living in our coastal paradise, except for the one day a hurricaine comes through."

I say we need to face a whole new mindset.
I fear we will again repeat the past.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:14 PM

as with all rants...I could be wrong.

There were changes made after the Jonestown flood.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 12:22 AM

I've watched the 1993 movie "The Fire Next Time" over and over in a hypnotic attempt to see into the future. Now it is happening and I fear for our world.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 12:45 AM

I was IN (Johnstown) Penn., several years ago....all they have done is what New Orleans has done...make the flood control walls a little higher. Johnstown has had several floods since the 'big' one, and they have 'only' had water in the businesses and multiple deaths several times! In 1936 & 1977 there were bad floods. Johnstown's economy is weak because everyone KNOWS they can't predict when another storm will over-tax the cement channel that 'protects' them.
People will not learn....most of them will do what they do ---stalwartly "rebuilding" in places that are familar but unsafe. Yeah, I know...no place is totally safe from Nature, but some places are inherently UNsafe, and as population grows and technology is able to quickly erect more expensive casinos and condos and beachfront tourist traps, the losses when it all goes terribly wrong will get bigger.

   There is always an entrepreneur willing to 'invest' (often with borrowed money) and a zoning board willing to cave in to grandiose plans and allow stupid developments....and then they expect to be bailed out after each disaster.

It's gotta stop, and as I said back ^ up there, it's about time that some big event makes 'those who decide' rethink where to allow major cities to be located........

I'm wondering if New Orleans will ever be salvaged and returned to its former glory.....I sorta hope not. I'd hate to see this repeated on a larger scale in 20-40-60 years. And when San Francisco finally loses in the lottery they've been beating for 100 years, perhaps someone will GET it!

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:04 AM

From CTV this morning: Streets of New Orleans Fall Deeper into Crisis   Lots of survivor's accounts and pics there ...

And here's how Canadians can help

Canadians wishing to make donations to assist in the relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina can contact the American Red Cross which has been manning a telephone hotline since Sunday in order to receive donations. The number is 1-800-HELP-NOW or 1-800-435-7669.

Gonna try that right now. The Mennonites look like a great choice too. We had a tornado here in Barrie in 1985, that wiped out a good chunk of the city and killed 7 people. ANd it was the Mennonites who came in droves, starting the very next day, to help rebuild the city. As volunteers.

I know how you feel Donuel - I can't look at any more news right now. I'm getting dehydrated from crying. Just 3 weeks ago, my friend was telling me how much she loves her city - that she's lived all over the states and in a couple foreign countries as well, but she always comes home to New Orleans. That's where life "clicks" for her the best, she says. My heart just aches for her, her family and everyone in the same boat. (no pun intended, believe me)

I'd been researching that historic city online for the last couple weeks, pondering when I might visit her in that legendary birthplace of blues, jazz and rock-n-roll. Maybe this Christmas if I'm really careful and save my pennies, I thought.

ANd now this ...

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:56 AM

If you have a credit card, you can make a donation to the American Red Cross online at redcross.org.

Meanwhile, the waters are still rising because it hasn't been possible to repair the quarter-mile long breach in the Ponchartrain levee. Close to 90% of the city is now under several feet of dirty water.

There was talk yesterday of getting refugess out on "cruise ships," but those ships can't sail in only five to ten feet of water.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:29 AM

I remember last year when a category 5 hurricane nearly missed New Orleans when it turned east.    Everyone in New Orleans was relieved.   Clearly, they didn't get it on how close they were to dissaster.

I remember the cable channels and weather experts telling us about the catastrophe of a category 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans.   According to military experts and national dissaster experts- San Francisco was the most vunerable city to natural dissasters and New Orleans was second.    After all this warning last year, it doesn't seem like much was done to protect the city.

The most accurate report was the expert on Bill Oreilly Monday night.   When everyone else was saying it wasn't as bad as it could of been, this expert was saying the opposite- how Lake Ponchetrain was overflowing and that it would begin to flood New Orleans and become a mess.   He turned out to be absolutely right.

About looters- I tend to agree with the approach by Rueben Greenstein- the recently retired African American orthodox jewish police chief of Charleston SC who said to shoot the looters.   I am apalled but not surprised by the looting.    There were looters in 9/11 as well.   The priority should be to save lives.    The way you get more resources to save lives is too eliminate the looting.   IMHO- you eliminate the looting once you get the message out that looters will be shot.   As Reuben said after there natural dissaster in Charleston- "Right now we don't have time to arrest them and book them"   Way to go Rueben.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Midchuck
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:55 AM

If I were in New Orleans now and had no food or water or medicine, I'd go where it was and get it, and send the store I took it out of a check when things had calmed down.

You have the moral right to talk about shooting looters if you yourself have the will power to go through the process of dying of hunger and thirst (thirst first, actually) when there's food and water where you can get it. I don't.

And by saying, "The legal process has broken down, so I can do whatever I want," the shooters are putting themselves on the same ethical plane as the looters.

Shooting looters who are looting whiskey or TV sets is another story, but why waste ammo? They're leaving the important stuff for others.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:56 AM

Looting may be one of the lowest forms of human activity around, but that's because people are offended by the profit motive (or something for nothing) attitude of the opportunists in the crowd at the time of extreme human distress. But I'm sure glad you're not the police chief there, Guest LarryK, because shooting looters would be an immoral indefensible act that would only contribute to the problems.

I saw a helluva lot of diapers being carried out of those stores by women. A real high-ticket profitable item, eh? Yeah, Larry, go shoot those women who need diapers and baby food and sterile materials for their small children. You go teach them a lesson. The shitheads who ransacked the beer coolers won't be able to get it cool, once they've had their ill-advised and unsatisfactory drunk they'll be in the way until maybe some of those mothers put them to work. You shoot them they're not even there for that kind of useful enterprise.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 11:08 AM

The problem as I see it Stilly is that property is considered so sacred in America that there will be a lot of support for shooting looters no matter what they have in there hands. We can only hope that the police use some common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:16 PM

Mayor: "Possibly thousands dead" in N.O. alone.

Relief officer: Hospitals under siege by looters, nurses calling for help. "If they're not evacuated by nightfall, there won't be any hospitals."

CNN: Gunshots heard. Gun stores looted. Gangs roving freely.

Possibly 100,000 remain in N.O.

For survivors, no food, no power, no phones, no drinking water for past two days.

No electricity expected for two to three months.

Military rescue operations underway.

Superdome refugees to be taken to Houston Astrodome.

Some natural gas lines ruptured in Biloxi, Mississippi.

Water may be starting to recede in N.O. at 1/2 inch per hour.

Col. Wagenaar, Corps of Engineers: Will take "three to six months" for city to dry out. "I saw not one building, home, or tree that was undamaged....It's just getting worse out there."

Legislator: "There is nothing on the ground between N.O. and Biloxi but devastation."

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: nutty
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM

I've been watching events unfold from the UK, so possibly am less emotionally involved than some of you.

I think that the problems regarding looters has become less important as time goes on. People looting food shops and supermarkets are obviously doing it for survival .... many have not yet taken on board the fact that living in New Orleans is not sustainable and are trying to plan for the future.

Similarly with clothes ...... if I had been left with just the clothes I had on.. I would probably go looting as well.

As the waters are still rising in New Orleans, who would benefit from these goods anyway. Not the shop owners ... it's unlikely that they would be allowed back into the city to retrieve them.

You can feel sorry for those looting electrical goods ... they won't benefit from them for very long. There is no electricity and there will very soon be no fuel to power generators.

I can't help thinking about Poppa Gator. He left New Orleans reluctantly but never dreamed that he would never come back. And if he ever does ... what will he come back to?

If anyone gets any news of him and his family PLEASE let us know.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:09 PM

Looters are thieves, simple as that. Diapers are expensive and a valuable commodity. Diapers, $100 Jerseys' or $200 Tennies. What, pray tell, is the difference? Survival my Aunt Fanny! This was being done right after the wind died down. No different than the LA riots (both), 9-11 or any Midwest Tornado.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:59 AM

Regardless of the rhetoric,including some from the President, N.O. police officials say they have no intention of shooting people who are stealing food and water from stores. In fact, the chief of police said that "Hopefully the days of shooting looters are behind us."

In cases of simple survival like this, the strictest definition of "looting" does not apply anyway, morally or legally.

The kind of "looters" the police are after are primarily those who are breaking into businesses and homes to steal whtaver they can carry away.

The situation is so bad, though, that real looting has to go unchecked because there are no jails available to hold arrestees, or
police stations to book suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

GUEST, if you can't tell the difference between retreiving diapers, water, food, and clothes for survival from opportunitists bagging electronics, you're one self-righteous and very dense individual. You'd change your tune in a hurry if you faced sitting in that toxic soup with no clean water to drink or food or clothes for your children.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM

SRS, they were looting Monday BEFORE the levees let go.
I have been in a blizzard and two floods and never thought about stealing. They (looters) were out there stealing as the rain and wind died down.
Dense? Tell me!

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:51 AM

Ordinarily, I wouldn't think about stealing either. And looters stealing goods that they expect to sell later, Rolexes for example, or to keep for their own enjoyment, such as big-screen TVs, really are no better than burglars.

But people stealing survival items from stores in a lawless area after a catastrophic disaster are just trying to live. They are "looters" only under the most ruthless definition. No American jury would convict them.

I agree with SRS on this.

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 12:37 PM

It makes me very sad to see all the pictures of the devastation. The real amount of the tragedy only became known days after the hurricane. I really wonder whether they will built up NO at the same place or not.

What happens now (shooting and looting; and I don't mean the sad people who struggle for a bit of bread and clean drinks) gives us a glimpse of a human society without any central power (government). It is a look into an abyss.

Wolfgang (who will find a way to give some money)

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 12:47 PM

In 1362, there was the great flood that changed the coastline of the North of Germany forever. A whole town was lost (Rungholt) and lies forever under the waterlevel close to where now the Hallig (Hallig is the German name for an island which is completely covered by water at srpingtides that is several times a year) Suedfall lies.

Here's an old German poem about it (for those who can read Germen):

Trutz, Blanke Hans

Trutz is an out of use noun and means 'withstanding'
'Blanke Hans' is the sea.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:13 PM

Wolfgang,

Can we get a literal translation of the poem in English?

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:36 PM

Altavasta says:


Today I drove over Rungholt,
the city went under before six hundred years.
Still the waves strike there wildly and infuriate
like at that time, when it destroys Mar.
The machine of the steamer schuetterte, groaned,
from a landing on water it called and hoehnte terribly:
    Trutz, blanks Hans!


Of the North Sea, the murder lake, of the mainland divorced,
lie the friesischen islands in peacetime,
and witnesses of world-destroying rage,
Hallig dips on Hallig from fleeing tide.
The sea gull quarrels already on increasing cotton wool,
the sea-dog suns itself on sandigen plates.
    Trutz, blanks Hans!

In the middle in the ocean sleeps up to the hour
a monster, deeply on the reason.
Its head rests closely forwards England beach,
the schwanzflosse plays with of Brazil sand.
It draws, six hours, the breath inward
and drives it, six hours, again from hinnen.
    Trutz, blanks Hans!

But dismisses once in each century
the Kiemen enormous wassermassen.
Then the Untier deep breath catches up
and whips the waves and falls asleep again.
Thousand humans in the north country drown to much,
rich countries and cities sink to much.
    Trutz, blanks Hans!

Rungholt is rich and becomes always enriches,
no more grain seizes even the groesseste memory.
As at the bloom time in old Rome
here daily the people stream accumulates.
The Saenften carries Syrians and Mohren,
with goldblech and Flitter in noses and ears.
    Trutz, blanks Hans!

Subject: RE: BS: more hurricane warnings
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM

It's a pleasure, though the old poetic language makes me realise how many English words I still don't know. The translate function is, in a mild expression, suboptimal.

WITHSTAND SEA
(Detlev von Liliencron, 1882)

Today I sailed over Rungholt
The town went down six hundred years ago
The waves still pound there wildly and furiously
As they did once when they destroyed the marshes
The engine of the steamer did shake and moan
From the waters it called unearthly and scoffed:
Withstand Sea. ("blanke Hans", shining/bare John, is a poetic term for the ocean; the ocean is a living being in this language)

Separated from the North sea, the murderous sea, the mainland
Lie the Frisian islands peacefully
And, as witnesses of earth destroying rage
Hallig by Hallig* appears from the retreating high tide
The dove already quarrels on the growing banks of sand
The seal basks in the sun on sandy patches
Withstand Sea.

In the middle of the ocean sleeps until now
A monster, deep in the ocean bed
Its head rests closely off England's strand
The tail fin plays at Brazilian sand
It draws its breath for six hours
An exhales it, six hours, again.

But once per century the gills
Discharge vast amounts of water
Then the monster draws deeper breath
Lashes the waves and falls asleep again
Many people in the Northland drown
Many rich countries and towns sink down
Withstand Sea

Rungholt is rich and is getting even richer
Even the largest granary can't hold the grain
Like when Rome of old flourished
The stream of people is jamming
Syrians and Moors bear the sedan chairs
With false gold and tinsel in ears and noses
Withstand Sea.

On all markets and in all lanes
Noisy people, drunken hordes
At eventide they move to the dike
"We withstand you, Sea, North sea puddle"
And while they clench their fists menacingly
The giant octopus slowly draws its claws from the mud
Withstand Sea

The waters ebb down, the birds rest
The Lord sneaks in the most silent of shoes
The Moon moves calmly across the sky
Smiles at Rungholt's delusional ostentation
From Brazil to the cliffs of Norway glitters
The sea like a sleeping polished steel
Withstand Sea

And peace everywhere, in the sea and at land
The all of a sudden like the roar of a chained beast of prey
The monster wallowed, took a deep breath
And closed its eyes again to sleep
And rushing, black and long-mane waves
Come flying like raging horses
Withstand Sea

A single scream, the town is sunk
And hundred thousands are drowned
Where yesterday was still noise and merry dinner
The next day the mute fish was swimming by---
Today I sailed over Rungholt
The town went down six hundred years ago
Withstand Sea.

*"Hallig" beats me and all my dictionaries. In German we differentiate between Insel (island) and Hallig. Our Halligen are islands that get completely covered by the sea at higher than normal tides. Hallig Hooge gets submerged about twice a year and Hallig Nordstrandischmoor about 24 times a year, the others are in between. The soil is of course extremely salty (that's what the name Hallig signifies, BTW) with a particular flora and fauna. Yes, there are people living on the Halligen. They live on Warften that is little artificial hillocks just the size of the house. At "Land unter" (land below sea level) the sea is just outside your house with perhaps enough land left so that you can walk around the house and you are separated from the next door neighbour by some hundred yards of water for at least six hours (if you're not at home make sure you are not caught by the high water on the church Warft, rather opt for the pub Warft instead). They are then a funny view from a ship. From some distance the Hallig looks just like some houses floating on the water. Every couple of decades the first floor of your house gets submerged as well. Since the last big flood of 1953, the government has seen that all houses have a steel nucleus as high as the second floor so that most likely the inhabitants should survive any conceivable flood.

Wolfgang