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BS: Are we anti-Irish?

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s&r 30 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM
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Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 04:22 AM
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Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 05:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 05:13 AM
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Kenneth Ingham 31 Aug 05 - 05:47 AM
The Curator 31 Aug 05 - 05:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 05:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 05:51 AM
Tiocfaidh 31 Aug 05 - 05:52 AM
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Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM
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Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 07:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 07:24 AM
The Curator 31 Aug 05 - 07:35 AM
Tiocfaidh 31 Aug 05 - 07:39 AM
Tiocfaidh 31 Aug 05 - 07:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 07:59 AM
Tiocfaidh 31 Aug 05 - 08:02 AM
The Curator 31 Aug 05 - 08:03 AM
Tiocfaidh 31 Aug 05 - 08:09 AM
The Curator 31 Aug 05 - 08:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM
Tiocfaidh 31 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM
Paco Rabanne 31 Aug 05 - 09:09 AM
Divis Sweeney 31 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM
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Tirghra 31 Aug 05 - 10:52 AM
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artbrooks 31 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM
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Tirghra 31 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM
Tiocfaidh 01 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM
Divis Sweeney 01 Sep 05 - 10:21 AM
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Wolfgang 01 Sep 05 - 10:59 AM
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Divis Sweeney 01 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM
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Tirghra 01 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM
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Divis Sweeney 01 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM
Catherine Jayne 01 Sep 05 - 03:19 PM
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Divis Sweeney 01 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Sep 05 - 05:56 PM
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Dave the Gnome 01 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM
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Big Al Whittle 01 Sep 05 - 06:26 PM
*Laura* 01 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM
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Grab 02 Sep 05 - 02:01 PM
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Catherine Jayne 12 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM
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dianavan 13 Sep 05 - 12:31 AM
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dianavan 13 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM
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Divis Sweeney 15 Sep 05 - 10:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM
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Wolfgang 15 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM
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Den 15 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM
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Paco Rabanne 16 Sep 05 - 08:43 AM
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Big Al Whittle 16 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM
Paco Rabanne 16 Sep 05 - 10:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Sep 05 - 01:06 PM
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Den 16 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM
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Dave the Gnome 17 Sep 05 - 04:20 AM
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Dani 17 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM
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Azizi 17 Sep 05 - 05:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM
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dianavan 18 Sep 05 - 12:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Sep 05 - 04:31 AM
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Big Al Whittle 18 Sep 05 - 03:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Sep 05 - 03:53 PM
dianavan 18 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM
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Big Al Whittle 18 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM
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Big Al Whittle 19 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 05 - 06:46 AM
Stu 19 Sep 05 - 09:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM
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Dave the Gnome 04 Oct 05 - 09:57 AM
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Kaleea 28 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM
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Alison M 30 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 06 - 09:30 AM
Den 30 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 30 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 06 - 11:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 06 - 12:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 06 - 01:03 PM
Divis Sweeney 30 Aug 06 - 01:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM
Divis Sweeney 30 Aug 06 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 06 - 02:12 PM
Divis Sweeney 30 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM
Paul from Hull 30 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM
Paul from Hull 30 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM
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Paul from Hull 30 Aug 06 - 02:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 06 - 02:57 PM
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Paul from Hull 30 Aug 06 - 03:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM
Paul from Hull 30 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM
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Paul from Hull 30 Aug 06 - 04:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM
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DougR 30 Aug 06 - 10:20 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 31 Aug 06 - 04:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Aug 06 - 04:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM
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Subject: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM

On another thread it has been stated categoricaly that the 'average Brit' is anti-Irish.

Is this true?

I am British and I am not anti anyone. No-one I know is anti anyone. Not by race anyway!

I have laid my cards down and said as far as I know the British, in general, are not anti-Irish so I am asking for either possitive proof or definate denial of this statement.

Out of the 60 million or so people on this Isle are the majority anti-Irish? Are a significant minority? Does, by any reasonable definition of average, the average Brit hate or even dislike the Irish?

I suspect not myself but I am willing to be shown the error of my ways. I am talking of today btw. Not in Oliver Cromwells time.

Be truthful please.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:20 PM

As a generalisation it's rubbish. It exists all right, but even at the height of the Troubles I don't think it ever reached the level of the other varieties of racism those merchants go in for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:22 PM

Plus there is a difference between prejudices or stereotypes and hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM

Hmmmm.... Oliver Cromwell said he liked the Irish, for he could always find one to turn the spit whilst he roasted another. So, even in his time, the English were fond of the Irish. And, likewise, for 900 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

My mother's grandfather was English and even to this day, my grandmother tells me how he wouldn't allow his wife to talk about her family because she was Irish and the Irish weren't worthy of being mentioned. He felt they were beneath his English stock. Hah! If he knew me, he would be furious! And that thought makes me smile....

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

I'm not Brit, but I'm sure Pro Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

It would me as well, Epona, but as you say that was your Mothers Grandfather. What are things like now?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM

Brits as a group are neither pro, nor anti, Irish. Individuals may tend in either direction, based on their personal experience in dealing with Irish people.

Many Brits are undoubtedly anti IRA, but the IRA form a very small percentage of the Irish nation.

I don't know who it was, but sombody once said "All generalisations are wrong, even this one".

Hold that thought, it's a good'un.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

True, what are things like now was your question, Dave. And as we know, many things can change from one generation to the next. But, many things can also stay the same. It will be interesting to see the rest of the responses you get on this subject if everyone is truthful.

Amen, Sorcha!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

Oliver's times? Well, a hundred or so years ago, in the US and Canada, signs like "No Irish Need Apply" and "No Irish Beyond This Point" and "Paddys Out" were still common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM

Hmmm... I may give my identity away here, but, what the hell. I was engaged to a lass, the one true love of my life, not so many years ago, secretly, for we planned to wed after she finished university. Until her grandmother found out that I was, indeed, half Irish Catholic and half French Catholic, whilst they were pure English Presbyterian. Didn't matter anymore that my bran muffins were a hit at coffee after service. I was turfed not long after. Good thing I wasn't skewered by those little old IODE's who use to lance their way down the aisle of the church every Sunday... fucking hypocrits.

And, this is is the "New World", thousand of miles and centuries away. On the average, of course, people are people. The Brits are some of the very best. But, the bad apples spoil it for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

GUEST 6:35 PM: Cromwell was hardly a nice person, and his methods of making war would make Osama cringe, but they were pretty normal for his era. The fact is that he spent less than ten months in Ireland and the task assigned him by the House of Commons was to defeat the Royalist forces there, who were Anglo-Irish landowners or English (both Protestant and Catholic). He was not there to persecute the "native" Irish, and generally didn't go out of his way to do so; he treated his enemies in Ireland just about the same as he did those in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:12 PM

As were signs dissing Italians, Poles, Jews,"negroes" etc. This was the perceived perogative of the so called landed gentry unwilling to share their space with the dirty unwashed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM

What does tend to irritate at times are some of the "Irish jokes".   The ones that just play on the "thick Mick" note, without even trying to be funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 08:28 PM

Care to explain again for the Kerryman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM

Geez, artbrooks ~ are we talking about the same Cromwell?

He was not there to persecute the "native" Irish, and generally didn't go out of his way to do so;...

Didn't I once hear about someone proclaiming "to Hell or Connaught?" Wasnt there a bit about dispossessing all the native Irish in the fertile lands of Ulster, banishing them to the barren west, and replacing them with "plantations" peopled with Scottish Prebyterians? Isn't there still a lot of bad blood ~ also known as "Troubles" ~ over ths very issue lo these many centuries later?

Now, I'm still ready to believe any British individual alive today who asserts he/she has no problem with the Irish. But I'd wager than anyone still speaking as an apologist for Oliver Cromwell might well find that the average Irishman has a problem with him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:01 AM

PoppaGator, it certainly still reverberates...unfortunately the "facts" mostly aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:49 AM

I still giggle when I remember my mom's story about my parents telling my great-grandmother Mom was pregnant with me. They said, "We're going to name her Molly," and Gaga sniffed and opined, "Tsk...sounds like a charwoman's name."

*snicker*

And my grandmother was Irish-Italian, but in total denial of her Irish side. Of course, she couldn't have been in too much denial, or she wouldn't have married a Cyril Doyle. *grin*

Molly (or did she mean fishmonger?)


P.S. Wasn't it Cromwell who said of the Burren, "There isn't water enough to drown a man, trees enough to hang a man, or soil enough to bury a man," or similar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:38 AM

On another thread you referred to yourself as 'English', Dave.
(Funny how I knew you'd be the kind of person that would be likely to do that....)

We're talking about a frame of mind here...

"Plus there is a difference between prejudices or stereotypes and hatred."
Exactly, Le Scaramouche.

Let's not confuse the issue here; we're not talking about hate.
We're talking about an Anti-Irish (Northern Nationalists in particular) bias among people who feel they have to call themselves 'British', as opposed to 'English' (Passport requirements, notwithstanding)

I think we wont get a scientific result though, Dave.

I don't think Anti-Irish people will come in here and defend their standpoint; most anti- anything sentiment you'd care to name, is a product of either historical predjudice, or decent 'marketing' on behalf of the 'pro-' whatever sentiment, side.

If the sniping that is done here on these boards by British people at anything remotely Pro-Irish, is anything to go by, take those comments, and juxtapose them into every living room in England, and tell me that those comments are not said, by your average guy with an over-developed Britannia Rules the Waves gene.

In the case of the Northern Nationalists, oddly enough it was the US Courts that made a few examples out of the 'British' Justice System.

Anti-Irishness is institionalised, Dave.

It is only free-thinkers who break that mould.

The average 'Everybody else' couldn't care less if we dropped off into the Atlantic or not.
Preferably the former, of course (... and there is documentary evidence in the archives of Mudcat, supporting this; I couldn't be arsed finding it at the minute, but that and worse is in there, you can take my word on that)

"... from apathetic to downright hostile"

As a Pro-Irish Brit is a contradiction in terms, our scale must start at 'apathetic'

Anyway let's see what the folks say...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

I don't think the English are particularly anti-irish at all.

You will hear the odd irish-put down joke, or perhaps enthusiastic rivalry, but as for actual hatred of the irish, certainly not. Maybe it Scotland the divide is more pronounced, but other than that...no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:13 AM

IF the 'average' Brit is Anti - Irish , how come Irish Music sessions are so popular all over Britain ?? - AND Irish theme Pubs ?? AND Guiness ???


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:04 AM

I don't think we will get a particularly scientific answer here either, Tiocfaidh. But when all comes to all it is in response to a particularly un-scientific statement:-)

Interesting point on the English/British bit btw. Perhaps we can take another straw poll? Who, in England, classes themselves as English and who claims they are British? I'll start. I am primarily English. Fiercely Lancastrian. Proud of both and equaly proud of being both part immigrant and fully European. I have never considered myself British and am very unsure even what it constitutes!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:18 AM

I don't think Anti-Irish people will come in here and defend their standpoint.

And I don't think many who aren't anti Irish will feel the need to come in and defend themselves against someone's preconcieved idea of themselves either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:46 AM

I worked in England throughout the 1960s and I found that the English were certainly prejudiced against anyone Black or Asian, the Irish would have come in a poor third.

The attitudes would have certainly changed during the past IRA campaign, I am taking into account the stories of Irish people who had to confront this on a daily basis, through there work, and also the stories of their children, who were given a terrible time at school.

With the present conflict in Iraq and the London bombings, the object of todays hatred would be Asians, God help the innocent among those Asians who have to work in England,it dosen`t matter where in the East they come from, their racial features will be enough to make them the brunt of racial hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM

I worked in England throughout the 1960s and I found that the English were certainly prejudiced against anyone Black or Asian.

And that prejudice was still thriving in Ireland into the last decade. I guess some people just take longer to let go and move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: mooman
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

I'm an Irish citizen and passport holder but was brought up in London and have a London accent, i.e. I don't sound discernabaly Irish except to a trained linguistics expert who would pick up a characteristic residual vowel sound typical of North-West Ireland.

As such, I have experienced some rather nasty and unpleasant "institutional racism" in several places I worked where it was not realised I am Irish.

But no... I certainly don't think it is endemic amongst the British but rather confined to a relatively small number of ignorant individuals. On the contrary, I think the British are a tolerant nation,

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

We're not remotely anti-Irish: we're both British, English, Northern Lanky (by adoption). We go to Ireland often, love the country and have never found anything there but open arms from the Irish.

We know little about the tensions in the North: in general it seems to be absent in the South where we visit. We would like to see a peaceful settlement that leaves all those in the North feeling that there has been a fair and just outcome.

The threads that occur here sometimes seem counter productive: it's easy to find bitterness and hard to relinquish it.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:34 AM

The average 'Everybody else' couldn't care less if we dropped off into the Atlantic or not.

Yep, I've said that often enough, *but* only in relation to the IRA and Loyalist paramilitaries and their supporters. As I remember, my quote was something along the lines of "If both those bunches of evil bastards drop into the ocean and drown, I'll be happy".

Since most Irish and Northern Irish people share my view, I guess that makes me pro-Irish...

Graham.

PS. I'm English. Being as England is part of Britain, that also makes me British, and I'll use either depending on how specific I want to be about where I come from (if I wanted to be more specific yet, I'd say I came from Lancashire, or from Lytham St. Annes, or from Ansdell). "What kind of person" does that make me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:38 AM

Grab - That makes you the kind of person that's good at geography! :)

Stu - It is certainly hard to reliquish bitterness, but though some threads may seem counterproductive to you and some others, I must say that they indeed have helped me see several issues in ways that I wouldn't have. Some have even helped me recognize some of my own biases and really confront that bitterness in order to let it go. So, while you may see them as counterproductive, at least for me they have been very helpful as well as educational.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM

If I think back 30 years, or so, ago there was a fair amount of disrespect for our Irish neighbours around (eg. 'Irish jokes' etc.). Thankfully, a lot of that seems to have died out. The reasons for this are probably quite complex, but I would suggest such things as the emergence of Ireland as successful European nation and a more positive portrayal of Irish people in the British mass media have all helped.
Personally, I grew up listening to Irish traditional singers and musicians (as well as English and Scottish ones)- they convinced me (if I needed convincing) that Irish people and Irish culture have always been worthy of the highest respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM

To quote the great Alan Partridge,

"ders more to ireland dan dis".


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

Or another great one:

Alan Partridge:

'Sunday Bloody Sunday'. What a great song. It really encapsulates the frustration of a Sunday, doesn't it? You wake up in the morning, you've got to read all the Sunday papers, the kids are running round, you've got to mow the lawn, wash the car, and you think "Sunday, bloody Sunday!". Alan Partridge.

Pure genius


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:40 AM

Morticia is Irish. Anyone anti Morticia? Better not admit it!

In this country, the signs "No Irish need apply" was all about economics and jobs. had nothing to do with religion. American laborers resented them coming here and taking jobs, but of course, they couldn't admit that so they played the religion card.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

The economic concern has fueled bad feeling against immigrants in many times and places, and by extension probably bad feeling against the place from which they emigrated as well. At the risk of turning this into an actual music thread, there is a broad assortment of non-PC older, and tongue-in-cheek newer, songs which point this out.
Jan Christensen's song for the reopening of Ellis Island has a song, putting into words the feeling of earlier immigrants toward later ones, "They all look funny and they don't speak English and they're taking our jobs away..."
A somewhat older one is sung from the viewpoint of an Irish woman bemoaning that currently the Italian immigrants are taking the jobs because they will work for less, but things will be better "When McGinnis gets a job."
That gentle and tolerant Scots emigrant to Australia, where even more than in the U.S. the vast majority are immigrants of relatively recent time, Eric Bogle's tongue was probably bleeding from his fantasied Aussie lambasting of all unfamiliar newcomers in his ferocious, "I hate wogs, they live like dogs, some eat bananas and some eat frogs, some wear sandals and some wear clogs, it's all the bloody same to me 'cause I hate wogs."
There are plenty of these, of a variety of ages. In an earlier time when people did not travel as widely as often, distrust of the stranger was likely largely due to unfamiliarity of appearance and ways. More recently with increased worldwide mobility, the economic concern has probably played a larger role. Historically, newcomers, strangers in a strange land, have been willing to do jobs the local individuals may not be, or to do tough jobs for lower pay. The U.S. has had definite waves of immigration from different parts of the world in different times. I suspect that in difficult times, the brunt of bad feeling has been borne by whatever group happened to be the most recent large wave of immigrants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM

Interesting thread this,
I lived and worked in London in the 50s -60s too and I remember well the indifferent acceptance of my fellow occupants,in a London Youth Hostel,of the arrival of two Southern Irishmen (my brother and I) among them. This lulled us into a sense of false security , to a large extent, and I can remember the shock of seeing "No Irish, No Coloureds" on the shop front advertising cabinets in areas like Maida Vale, Paddington, Earl's Court etc., etc.
There was a widespread attitude of "superiority" towards Irish people then, among Londoners, but we were mostly treated ( I think, provided that we behaved according to the same social rules, and why would we not !)like Pavlov's dog. Only once, on the Soccer pitch, did I receive racial insult from an English person (which I believed him to be)......well, I did kick him. Gratuitous offence , however, could be taken by anyone of a sensitive disposition, as it was constantly , mostly unwittingly, offered in every day conversation, newspapers, and radio broadcasts and, especially, at Speakers corner, Marble Arch. I suppose that these kind of attitudes did tend to force some of us into certain areas, Ghettos, almost, to adopt the language of the time.   
Nowadays , I find that the British Press, and not merely the "Red Tops", constantly adopt an almost sneering attitude , especially with regard to that of which we feel proudest. This would include our better international levels of sporting performance, economic performance and even our attempts to rationalise our relationship with Northern Ireland.
There has been no comparable , institutionalised, Anti English (or British) discrimination here for many years.
I also ran a small restaurant here in an Irish village for 10 yrs and was constantly being amazed by the number of middle-aged to elderly British/English people who came in and admitted that it was their first trip to Ireland and how wrong their preconceptions had been.
"We'll be back !" was the common attitude I found. I do not believe that has changed since those 90s although our roads sure have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:27 PM

My personal and unscientific observation from a good deal of travel in the past decade in Ireland, England, and Scotland, and from listening to a great number of songs and the commentary that goes with them from the singers, and sitting many hours talking with friends from various points across the pond, is that many English people like Ireland (when they see it) but are not eager to know Irish people, and many Irish people have no problem with English people but have a long-established antipathy toward England as a nation. Both of these views probably have historic roots, as many Irish were poor immigrant workers in England in the past (sometimes the very recent past, right up to Celtic Tiger days) but their homeland remains a beautiful place (and, sadly, possibly rendered more scenic to some by the reduction in population in the mid-19th century), and Ireland as a nation has seen England/Britain/UK as an empire-building invader over the centuries, but individuals have of necessity worked closely with English people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

"I don't think the English are particularly anti-irish at all" - David Hannam

No, neither do we, David.
Read Tiocfaidh's post again.

"I don't think we will get a particularly scientific answer here either, Tiocfaidh. But when all comes to all it is in response to a particularly un-scientific statement:-)" - Dave

(Let me, Paul...)
The fairly scientific poll we did on the Mudcat posts, showed a marked bias, Dave, and on the 'Loyalist' thread, you have sort of accepted that; you could name them yourself, you said...

"IF the 'average' Brit is Anti - Irish , how come Irish Music sessions are so popular all over Britain ?? - AND Irish theme Pubs ?? AND Guiness ???" - Leadfingers.

Combat 18 use Irish Pubs in Europe as 'headquarters' at England's 'away' games.
And sing a decent 'rebel' song (a British nomenclature, by the way) in some of these 'Irish' Pubs, and you'll get the "I feel offended..." story thrown back at you.

"And I don't think many who aren't anti Irish will feel the need to come in and defend themselves against someone's preconcieved idea of themselves either" - Guest

Perhaps not, Guest, but the discussion has been opened, and people will feel free (or otherwise...), to give their opinion, and to stick their monikers to it.
Anti-Irishness on the Mudcat has been accepted.
How subliminal is it within the psyche of the average 'Brit'
(... please note that 'English' people don't get called 'Engs'....)

And please note, also, that we are not looking for how far up the scale of racism, Anti-Irishness lies.... as being comparable to African, Asian, etc. Irish people are lucky enough in that there were other objects for 'British' people to throw their superiority complex at.

"And that prejudice was still thriving in Ireland into the last decade. I guess some people just take longer to let go and move on" - Guest

Not the 'Reverend' Ian's mob, I'm afraid.
One of his Ministers/Borough Council Representatives recently passed around leaflets protesting against the building of a Mosque in North County Armagh.
Sky News interviewed the guy, and as he was being interviewed, a small crowd of kids appeared to wave, and make faces into the camera. 'Man of God', Reverend Whatshisname, turns around to the kids and in full hearing of the 'British' public said "These Muslims eat their children, you know; we don't want them here, do we?"
Kids say "No"
Oddly enough, this kind of thing might be the catalyst..., as in 7-10 years time some of these 'Children Eaters' will be on the Electoral Register.

"The threads that occur here sometimes seem counter productive: it's easy to find bitterness and hard to relinquish it." - s&r

These threads do not set out to be counter-productive, s&r. They are created to make us think.
Has anyone actually researched what being 'British' entails?
Because it is fundamental to the premise being offered here

"I'm English. Being as England is part of Britain, that also makes me British" - Grab

... in a nutshell...

"In this country, the signs "No Irish need apply" was all about economics and jobs. had nothing to do with religion" - kendall.

In England, it wasn't necessarily related to religion, neither, kendall.
The Act of Union made any further 'Popish Plots' impossible.
They were quite happy to have us work down the tunnels and on the roads in England... they just didn't want us staying in their lodging houses.

" ... and Ireland as a nation has seen England/Britain/UK as an empire-building invader over the centuries, but individuals have of necessity worked closely with English people." - Celtaddict

That's just known as the dynamics of the situation, Celtaddict. France, England and Germany could equally fit there.
The British Government over the years since 1971 have been in secret contact with the IRA (probably un-beknownst to most English people), in direct violation of their own 'no negotiating with 'Terrorists' stance.
Who do you think the Government were trying to hoodwink on these occasions?
The Irish?

No, dear readers. The 'British' population had to believe they were actually winning the war against us.
Those 'free-thinkers' that Tiocfaidh talks about, are those that don't, or never did, buy in to the double standard

YEE - HA folks!

(I think we're actually getting somewhere...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM

While I respect the intent of the thread, it seems ludicrous to me. Among the British folks in general, and the English specifically, I don't find them to be anymore anti Irish than anything else. There is no denying the culpability of the government in the events of the last 400 years or so, but I find that most I know don't support the policy of their government in the North of Ireland. But most of the folks I am acquainted with are working class.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:34 PM

Sorry, missed this one:
"but I would suggest such things as the emergence of Ireland as successful European nation and a more positive portrayal of Irish people in the British mass media have all helped." - DB

Undoubtedly, DB.
'Marketing' and spin have always tipped the balance.

That is the process we are now going through...

The Irish Nationalist in the North of Ireland has always basically known that the Media held the key to English Public Opinion here; if the Prime Minister depends on the endorsement of 'The Sun' to win an election, for instance, what can centuries of institutionalised Anti-Irishness do for the heavily-shielded-from-reality English public?

Cast your mind back to WMDs, David Kelly, and the pictures from the Iraqi prisons.

It is very hard for an Establishment who wants it's citizens to trust its' take on things to keep the deception up, when its' dirty linen is constantly getting washed in public.
That's one of the advantages of the technological age; more transparency.

In my opinion there will always be 'war-mongerers'.
And there will always be people who support such 'war-mongerers' blindly, irrespective of any moral or ethical constraint they are asked to observe.

How they convince their Electorate is what really matters, however.
How they play to an already elated sense of importance is vital.
If they want their 'enemies' to appear 'evil', they will have the Public convinced very soon.
If that doesn't help, they'll concoct a few incidents.... they have in the past, they'll do in the future if they have to.

The British Establishment has treated it's citizens like the proverbial mushroom over the years.
... it's the old saying..., you are what you eat.

Odd, too, that English people don't mind calling themselves 'European'.
Grab didn't make that extra obvious step, in annotating his sense of belonging.

The old habits die hard.

That is the point


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:03 AM

The vast majority of Irish people are fine, its just that bores like Tir Eoghian have such a very Irish way of being boring that it creates needless predjudice against the wider Irish community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ohh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:05 AM

Or even prejudice, Gods forbid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:06 AM

"...a very Irish way of being boring"

Very good, Ooh Aah2.

What exactly does that mean, now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:09 AM

'Needless predjudice', perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:29 AM

Thanks, Mick - Nice to get the view of someone from across the pond as well. It is just the point I was making. No-one in my extended family or group of friends are anti-Irish. Apart from the odd comments I have seen on here on Mudcat by what I believe to be a tiny minority of people (Including the odd American btw) I have never come across anyone who is particulary anti-Irish. I admit I do know people who are anti everything and everybody not British, including the Irish, but in my mind that makes them generic racists and NOT specificaly anti-Irish.

I still think the statement is unfounded and would like to see some evidence before I even begin to consider it vaguely factual. As I have said before I will accept that there is anti-Irish feeling in Britain. I will just not accept that the 'average Brit' is any more anti-Irish than the average human being.

On the English/British thing again. If the British are anti-Irish but the English are not are we saying that the anti-Irish feelings run higher in Scotland and Wales? ;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:39 AM

Doesn't matter what else 'anti-' they are, Dave. The fact that they also hate everything else doesn't make the situation any easier for the Irish.

"If the British are anti-Irish but the English are not are we saying that the anti-Irish feelings run higher in Scotland and Wales? "

Take a straw poll of those who refer to themselves as British (as opposed to purely 'Scottish' or 'Welsh') in those countries, and see, Dave

But I don't think we're going down that road, just yet


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM

Amongst the folk community in London and the South-east I have experienced an underlying hatred of Irish. I am Irish but have a london/cockney accent, a lot of people do not realise who I am and inadvertently reveal their true colours. Irish joke are commonplace along with comments such as "thick paddies" "irish bastards" "what do you expect from a mad irish woman". Just last night when discussing the film "Gangs Of New York" one well known kentish folk performer stated "New York was a clean, civilised place when the british had it - it only went downhill when the Irish pigs arrived" this same bloke will often sing irish songs in his set!

There is also an underlying jealousy of the Irish folk tradition and it's recent successful revival. There is a session in Greenwich which actually bans the playing of Irish music, some of the players there have openly claimed that the Irish stole all their best tunes from the english.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM

Let's tackle this from another position..

1. How long did those making the assumptions about the anti irishness of brits, spend living on the UK mainland?

2.Where did you live?

3.What have you based your assumptions on?

It is often those holding the assumptions about another that need to do the homework on prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:05 AM

I doubt that Oliver Cromwell represented the opinion of most English people.

"When Cromwell came to Ireland long ago,
He didn't shed a drop of blood you know,
And the people started grieving
When they heard that he was leaving
If I knew a bigger lie I'd tell you so."   (The Liar)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM

Woodsie,

I think that the Anti-Irish, "well-known kentish folk performer" should be named - so we can all boycott his gigs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:46 AM

There has been a kind of institutional contempt among elements of the "Brits" for centuries against the Irish. People like Thomas Carlile put their names to disgraceful essays along such lines.

As Kendall says, it was largely driven by economic concerns, or if I could be more specific, by mass ignorance of the economic realities - ignorance that was readily and easily exploited by a few Brits with political, vested interests.

It is comparable with the racism that has flourished in Britain, America, many other countries, and now Ireland itself. The reason that such selfish attitudes were slower to catch on in Ireland than in Britain or the USA has nothing to do with any kind of Irish moral superiority. It is simply that until recently the ignorant in Ireland saw no risk of being inundated by relatively more disadvanted people against whom they could discriminate, and over whom they could feel themselves to be superior.

All of this miasma of ill-will, from wherever it originates, and wherever it is directed, owes nothing to nationality and everything to the least pleasing aspects of human nature.

To Ard's post, where he speculates about how the Provo campaign may have affected attitudes to the Irish in Britain, I would just add that I know Irish nationalists who lived in Birmingham (as I did) in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where in 1974 the IRA accomplished what was then the biggest mass murder in British history. Any hostility they encountered was more than offset by the concern of others to counteract such prejudice. No doubt there were cases of school bullying, though I didn't hear of it. That cannot be defended, but then schoolkids have an almost unfathomable capacity to torment peers for even the most trivial of reasons - all equally beyond justification.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:03 AM

"... How long did those making the assumptions about the anti irishness of brits, spend living on the UK mainland?"

Claims, Guest. Claims.

I've lived in the 'UK' all my life, and members of my family live in various places closer to the pulsing heart of it than I.
If the Kingdom is United, what difference does it make as to the part of it, I'm in?
Your statement itself is exclusionist...

When one experiences more suspicion than welcome in one's everyday, it has to set a fella thinkin'

(... on the move at the minute...)

I'll be BACK!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:54 AM

Dsve - easy with the Scottish being British idea! :) Up until 5 years ago when my grandpa Campbell died (born and raised in Glasgow), he would make at least one remark at every gathering that he was a proud Scotsman, no matter what lines the British drew on a map. This idea of English/British, Scottish/British, and Welsh/British could turn into a whole other thread! :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:21 PM

No, because there are no anti-Irish songs to offset the anti-English songs that the Irish sing. At a recent session it was suggested that, as the IRA had "ceased the armed struggle", it is now OK to sing Irish rebel songs again. If it is, I will have to revise Harvey Andrews' "The Soldier" as an antidote, although it is not anti-Irish, just anti-murderous bomber.

Flanders and Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice" is about as close as one can get to an anti-Irish song, and that is really only ironic!

"The Irishman, now, all contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and lies in his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third"

On the whole, in answer to the question posed in this thread, "No".

But don't push your luck, Paddy!

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:23 PM

Peter that family I had my information from lived in Chatham Kent, the man worked for British Rail, his young family of school going age still retained their Irish accents as they hadn`t long moved. When he was in Ireland on holiday I spoke to the two young girls, they told me it was hell, constant bullying in the playground, the father approached the headmaster and while he tried to help, it still went on, the father eventually was transferred to London and the new Catholic School was a big improvement.

Peter I listened to my English workmates and their prejudice against the Blacks was an eye-opener for me, I had no problem, due to the fact that I played football and Cricket for the firm.

Here in the north of Ireland the eastern Europeans,Portogese, Filipinos,and Chinese are the victims of Loyalists gangs who won`t allow anyone but Protestants in their areas, as a result the Cathilic districts in the town are now very much multi-racial, I hope the migrants are left in peace, so far they are settling in ok.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 03:09 PM

I wouldn't take issue with what you say arc mhacha, and whatever prejudice exists is likely to be more pronounced in towns like Chatham that have strong military connections (naval in Chatam's case).

But as far as school bullying goes, I'd still say it is usually a case of any excuse sufficing. I've been a school governor for nearly 20 years, and in my experience it's as likely to be because the victim is from a deprived background, overweight or just different in the slightest way, as because the victim is black, Irish, from a traveller family or whatever. In all cases it can be carried to horrific lengths, occasionally ending with suicides. As far as I can see, it's just a sad reality of human nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:08 PM

I was living in Worcester in October 1974 when an active service unit was busy in the West End of London. Something the British stuck the wrong people in prison for. Anyway the guy I was staying with advised me to think about getting back to Ireland as soon as possible due to the anti Irish feeling throughout England.I saw it first hand and it was nasty. Irish families that had lived there for years became targets. None that I was aware of were Republicans. I can accept the English feeling towards the units that were operating in London, Birmingham and Manchester at that time, but to wreck Irish owned corner shops and public houses showed me more about their mentality than ours. I see it's again occuring again against the muslims. This natinality and culture has brought wealth to this country, and the nation that brought us combat 18 and the National Front are again making life miserable for non W.A.S.P.'s. I know many English men and women that lived long and happy lives in the North of Ireland throughout the troubles without a word said against them. In fact many were friends of mine. But then again we are Irish !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:46 PM

Flanders & Swann, eh?
Ironic, eh?
"No, because there are no anti-Irish songs to offset the anti-English songs"

Your National Anthem springs to mind for one, Lanfranc.

I think the point being made is 'Institutionalised'
That usually means 'you don't spot it'
Which in turn means, 'you don't spot it when you're guilty of it'

'Don't push your luck, Paddy', eh?

We did, Lanfranc
And we won.

"But as far as school bullying goes, I'd still say it is usually a case of any excuse sufficing.", and as you know, Peter K, being Irish is a good an excuse as any.

That is the sad reality of anti-Irish feeling. It's as acceptable as the jokes we all know and hate

And half the time the average Brit doesn't realise it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:09 PM

Win? Win? We got out of Ireland and you think YOU won? If it wasn't for the fact that we will not give in to people who blow up little boys in supermarkets, we would have glady left the whole soggy dump years ago.

Isn't it just astonishing to have all these whinging Irishmen writing in to complain about English/British intolerance, which they know all about because they have lived there for years. Think carefully about that!

The Irish have a right to feel disgusted while they look back at the nasty and pointless English/British entanglement in Ireland. However they will have to eventually come to terms with the fact that only a tiny ruling elite bears responsibility for the lot of it. The common English folk knew little and cared less. This means when you go on about stuff that happened centuries ago we get the conclusion that you're whingers, grudge bearers and lacking in historical discrimination, (hence thinking killing English children and women who try to comfort dying soldiers is a worthwhile activity)as well as singing through the nose in that horrid way. If one came across an English person who continually bored one with dismal songs about the Royalist defeat at the battle of Edghill, and sang them at you as if you were personally responsible, then you would quickly come to understand why SOME Irish are viewed as tedious little shites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Tiocfaidh, ard, Curator,
If your lucky enough to be Irish, your lucky enough. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:23 PM

"The common English folk knew little and cared less"

Exactly, Ooh-Ahh2. As the veritable Tír Chonaill has said:
"The British Establishment has treated it's citizens like the proverbial mushroom over the years.
... it's the old saying..., you are what you eat."


"The Irish have a right to feel disgusted while they look back at the nasty and pointless English/British entanglement in Ireland", but "This means when you go on about stuff that happened centuries ago we get the conclusion that you're whingers, grudge bearers and lacking in historical discrimination"

Can't really win with that logic, can one, Ooh-Ahh2?

Why not just admit you're anti-Irish, and stop making us all laugh...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 05:50 PM

.... and anyway, we're not going on about 'stuff that happened centuries ago'.

We are being so entirely present-day.

The thing about it is, Ooh-Ahh2, we are not polling your take on history. Nor, indeed, are we polling the nature of your gripes.
We don't want to necessarily know why the average Brit is anti-Irish....

...just that you accept that he or she is.

You are performing admirably, I can assure you


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

Guest Ooh Aah 2 you seem to be missing some crucial points in this thread.
The fact of the matter is that while we are willing to debate this topic with prejudiced people , we really don't give a damn nowadays.
All you need to do, to find the modern evidence of what we assert, is , pick up any of your British Newspapers, almost any day, or listen, with a less prejudiced ear, to your broadcast media.
Why are you so unable to accept that we have thrived, after much approbrium and many mistakes on our part,as a sovreign nation and have now caught you up, in many spheres ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:08 PM

Cricket, beachcomber.

We have to beat them at Cricket, yet....

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:32 PM

1. The thread originator, who identifies himself as British, asks "are we anti-Irish?"

2. The British (or English, if you prefer) say, unanimously and resoundingly, "no!"

3. The Irish respondents say, equally unanimously, "yes you are, all of you, and why can't you admit it?"

Did I miss anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

Yes, artbrooks.

Point 2 has yet to be:
1. Defined

2. Accepted

Point 3 is also misleading in it's premise:

"Yes the average Brit is, and why can't you admit it?"The statement should read

Need any further assistance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM

This is getting very monty python. Picture the group of confused looking hair shirt wearing men, running around lashing themselves with nettles and bramble.

" C'mon now lads, if the bastards won't admit they hate us, we'll thrash ourselves."


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:24 PM

It is nowhere near Pythonesque, Guest.
It's sad, that's what it is...

Explain to me why you chose the image of the 'hair shirt wearing men'?

Had we been 'Coloured', would you have used the 'bone through the nose' image?

We are trying to get to the heart of 'Britishness', and how the average member of that super-group of Primates see themselves in the World.

... and all you can do is to show us how you see others.

Are we getting anywhere yet, do you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:44 PM

You're substantiating Tiocfaidh's argument, GUEST and Ooh-Aah2. I am very interested in this thread. Yet I see several Irish people laying well-defined points and then I see answers from several that would call themselves British (English perhaps?) that are ugly with only harsh words and quips for response. I would really like to know the answer to Dave the Gnome's question that started this thread and I think that maybe we've all seen that if not yet proven to be among the average Brit, an anti-Irish bent does truly rest here with some of our fellow mudcatters. Maybe you're having a bad day perhaps? If so, I really do hope tomorrow is better for you.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:47 PM

We won't be getting anywhere will we, until we collectively do a five minute Jim Davidson routine. And it isn't going to happen.

The animosity you harbour is all yours. You seem to be having trouble understanding that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:57 PM

"The animosity you harbour is all yours."

That is about as comforting as listening to a hip-hop version of 'Sailing By', Guest.

'In real life' you can be magnanimous as you want to be, about the Irish.
The prejudice is nearly always 'anonymous'; a fact that in and of itself does not bother me (various permutations of 'Ohh-Ahh' would nearly suffice, however), but it just goes to show how unwilling the average Brit is to admit it.

It's nearly a guilt complex, some of you have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:21 PM

Whatever would we do without you telling us all how we think? Try and wake up tomorrow with a more forward looking optimistic demeanour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:24 PM

"Whatever would we do without you telling us all how we think?"

Probably go on thinking that the average Brit isn't anti-Irish.

I am optimistic, Guest.

I am optimistic that the general British Public will wake up one morning very soon and examine their humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:43 PM

Tiocfaidh, yes, I guess I do need more assistance. Other than GUEST Ooh-Aah-2 (with his odd comment about an "Irish way of being boring") who here has said anything anti- or even remotely negative about the Irish, other than people from Ireland recounting things that happened to them or a friend or a relative at some time or another? The English who have responded have all said that they are not anti-Irish and that they believe that their society, other then some isolated cases, also is not anti-Irish. If you choose to doubt their truthfulness, so be it, but if they are saying something else, in some code that an American of Irish and English (and French and German) descent cannot understand, than please educate me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:59 PM

You seem to totally disregard the experiences of the Irish, here, artbrooks.

".. who here has said anything... even remotely negative... other than people from Ireland recounting things that happened to them or a friend or a relative at some time or another?"

Does everything have to be pointed out in such a Freudian manner, art?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:06 PM

What makes you proud to be British, art?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:30 PM

There's a minority of people in England whose racism takes in the Irish, and that's actually got a good side, because they tend to be the same kind of creeps who are racist in other directions. There was an expression one time reflecting that - "toasted Irishman", meaning someone from an Afro-Caribbean background. Why I say it's got a good side is that it's probably a kind of protection for some people against slipping into those kinds of racism.

But antagonism towards Irish people is a minority sport in my experience, in the parts of the country I've lived in anyway. Ignorance about Ireland and Irish history, that's a different matter, but then most English people tend to be pretty ignorant about England and English history, and that's down to the education system rather than prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:42 PM

Tiocfaidh, did you read my post? I am not British. I am an American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:43 PM

Think Tiocfaidh was talking about your pride in your British heritage (Irish, English, French, German). :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:53 PM

Epona, how does that make me British? I don't even think Great Britain existed when my English ancestors came over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 10:58 PM

I don't know, art...How does that make you British? Tiocfaidh asked what made you proud to be British and from your statement earlier that you were of Irish, English, French and German descent, I surmised that T was refering to the pride you had in your English/British ancestry. (Great Britain the term was used as early as 1604 as far as I can dig up. Did your family emigrate before that?). I'm sure T will answer your question later if my explanation is not satisfactory. If it is satisfactory, though, glad I could be of some use and please, carry on with the discussion.

:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:37 AM

... Probably too subtle for artbrooks, Epona...

McGrath, you're confusing the issue here too... Easy on the 'racism', and concentrate on the word 'bias'. The World is awash with misconceptions at the minute, and we are finding it difficult to pin people down to the point we are discussing.

So far NONE of the Irish, or Irish-related, posters have said that they have not, either experienced it, or witnessed it in their day to day: an Anti-Irish bias.

So far, Dave everybody has come across it. That's a fair batting average for a start
(Remember the scale is from 'apathetic' to 'downright hostile')


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Standish Hayes O'Grady
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:33 AM

H'are you saying, Sir, that English people can be British, but that all British people are not necessarily English?

Or indeed vice versa?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Standish....

You are a prince among men.

Up to the top of the Class, with you, and take a bar of chocolate...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:18 AM

Odd, too, that English people don't mind calling themselves 'European'. Grab didn't make that extra obvious step, in annotating his sense of belonging.

Nope, I didn't. I can if you want - like small children write on their addresses: "England, Britain, United Kingdom, Europe, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way, The Universe". Does this make you happy? I thought the point was sufficiently obvious, but perhaps not.

For the record then, so that there is no misunderstanding, I have better things to do with my time than classify myself according to regional/national origin, because my experience is that it's a meaningless exercise. I'll willingly classify myself according to my political, religious and social views, and according to my hobbies and interests. And I'd expect others to do the same as well, because it's *those* things that define your personality. The definition of racism is a belief that national origin inevitably predisposes you to certain character traits (and particularly deficiencies). I don't happen to share that belief.

Incidentally, you might like to note that NI Protestants are *not* British, by the very definition of "Great Britain" comprising England, Scotland and Wales. This may make Ian Paisley and his merry men unhappy, but he's a racist wanker, so fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

The fairly scientific poll we did on the Mudcat posts, showed a marked bias

Interesting. How did you conduct this "fairly scientific poll", and what's your criteria for there being a "marked bias"? If it's on the basis of anti-Irish comments that don't receive a response, I trust you're aware of the "don't feed the trolls" principle?

Epona, I have to disagree with you. So far, all Tír Eoghain and Tiocfaidh have given are assertions and no substance. If they can point us at their reasons for thinking this, we can start to talk sensibly. A straight assertion that "you're all anti-Irish" is bound to come back with the response "no we're not!". If someone wants to prove that there's unconscious discrimination, they need to *prove* that otherwise they won't be taken seriously. As indeed all the English members of Mudcat are currently not taking Tír Eoghain and Tiocfaidh seriously.

So far, Dave everybody has come across it. That's a fair batting average for a start

As far as Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) goes, I can confirm that there *are* people who are anti-Irish, anti-European, anti-American, anti-black, anti-Chinese, anti-Indian/Pakistani, anti-Muslim and anti-Jew. I've met some of them, and it doesn't surprise me that you have too. I've also met some unpleasant French and German people. From the papers and from what's been posted above though, it seems that Ireland also has people with these biases too. Which just goes to show that everywhere has its share of arseholes.

However, you've yet to show that the *majority* share any of those prejudices. Fionn's post above explicitly says that he *doesn't* find this. In what way do your experiences contradict Fionn's?

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:33 AM

Graham, I must say that though we disagree on Tiocfaidh's statements/assertions, I do appreciate the fact that you are polite about it. And that was the point I was trying to make. It's difficult for me to read through the insults in order to get to the substance when one becomes defensive. I love a good argument myself, but one that's based on information and not jabs. I like to understand everyone's point of view instead of feeling like I just watched an episode of South Park. :) Again, thank-you Graham.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:36 AM

Great post, Grab.

"As far as Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) goes, I can confirm that there *are* people who are anti-Irish.... Which just goes to show that everywhere has its share of arseholes"

Excellent stuff!

All we really want to know is the rough percentage, now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:45 AM

Dear Ooh-Aah2
Sorry but we did win ! Don't for a second think the work of all our active service units home and aboard was a waste of time. Do you have any idea just how close your government was to cracking in 1994 ? We will win our islands freedom, and I doubt there will many Ooh Aah's come out of you then ? save if for your football terraces. Regarding your silly remarks about our volunteers blowing up children in Supermarkets. Our units never went out to do that. Yes there were operations which went wrong, but they were few. Unlike the murderous actions of your failed army whilst in my lands. What's it like to belong to an nation that has the highest rate of brutal child murders per head of popular in europe ? I really can see where you are coming from here. Our lads are out of jails which they should never have been in and many made local government and got on well in life, and your soldiers went home with a general service medal and Northern Ireland clasp. Really I can feel for you, but please don't allow your bitterness to eat you like a cancer, by the way check with your government on their latest offer to us, Provisional Irish Republican Army volunteers can become police officers if Sinn Fein accept seats on the policing board. I bet all along your government felt our men should of been in charge of law and order on the streets here, which in fact they were ! So go on forget your sad face and join us in a smile, after all with your government throwing sweets at us every week we have every reason to smile !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:46 AM

Can any of us really answer "are we anti-Irish/?"? I don't think so. We can each answer " Am I* anti-Irish?", though.

I'm not anti-Irish. I am anti-murdering bastard though, regardless of race, colour, religion, and regardless of if they're in 10 Downing St or some flat building nail-bombs



* I meaning the person answering, just in case someone doesn't like this and is determined to misinterpret it to find something objectionable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:51 AM

Pride in my English/British ancestry? Sure. And my Irish, French (although he was a bit of a bastard, by all accounts) and German ancestry. And my wife's English and Russian ancestry.

But what does that have to do with the original question of whether or not contemporary English/British think that they are anti-Irish? The question posed was not whether individuals who are Irish or who have Irish ancestry think that there is now or ever was anti-Irish bias.

If you all choose to slam the Brits rather than help answer the question, than recognize that this is the choice you are making.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM

Sorry Graham, I didn't mean to appear facetious. I'm just glad that the subject seems to be drawing out conversation, eventually.

But as we keep on stressing, ***RACISM*** is not what is under discussion.
What we are looking for is a general concensus on the motion that the average ***Brit*** ... Ahh ahh ahh..., now don't be getting all hot and flustered here..., because in order to prove it, we have to define it...; that the average ***Brit*** is at least as anti-Irish as at least the average Unionist. (The post that started all this....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:39 AM

Must make a slight correction...

The thread originator, who identifies himself as British, asks "are we anti-Irish?"

So far I have tried to make it quite clear that I do not see myself as British, but English. In particular, Lancastrian and to be even more specific a Mancunian!

I say so far because I have also mentioned that I am also part Polish/Russian. I mention it again here because of the statement So far, Dave everybody has come across it. That's a fair batting average for a start. I too have come across prejudice. In my younger days, before my parents changed our name to something suspiciously made up (Polshaw if you must know!) my name was Polakow. I was mercilessly teased at school. I was hit and spat at by the older kids because of 'What my lot did in the war' (Huh?) Does that make the average Englishman anti-Polish? Nope. A bit more recently during a stay in Antigua a young black lad on the back of a wagon shouted 'White nigger' at me. Does that make the average Antiguan anti- English? Nope. Right up to date with a visit to Listowel during a Sean McCarthy memorial weekend I was treated to various renditions of how the English are all bastards. While walking down the main street I was also greeted by 'You're a fucking Englishman aren't you?'. Does that make the average Irishman anti-Enlish? You've guessed it - Nope! To be fair, btw, the guy with the nice line in opening patter did offer to by us a pint because he was well rat-arsed after celebrating his daughters medical degree pass:-)

Is it prejudice though? Of course it is. It is human nature. It is a defence mechanism against the unknown. We are all guilty of it in some way or another. It is how we deal with it that matters. To turn any of the above situations into the average 'x' is anti 'y' I would need to see more than schoolground bullying or the odd racist remark from a tiny minority that haven't got the brains they were born with.

Unless we begin to see examples of how and where the 'average Brit' (Still not defined btw) is anti-Irish I can only draw the conclusion that the claim is linked to the few bad experiences of our correspondants. The fact that anyone can draw the conclusion that the average attitude amongst 60 million people is represented by the ignorance of a ridiculously small portion is beyond my ken I'm afraid. Unless of course our respected correspondants have seen more prejudice than others? If so, could this be anything to do with the inflamatory or controversial nature of such statements as the average Brit is anti-Irish? Perhaps people who look for fights do see more animosity than those who do not;-)


Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

Did you ever hear the tale about the little boy who found the bee hive? He got great delight from poking it with a sharp stick, until all chaos broke out and the bees evacuated amidst thunderous drone, hissing, spitting and stinging.

This went on for weeks, everyday he poked the hive and grinned at the result. By now the bees were not only mightily pissed off, but wise to the game. The next time the boy appeared with stick in hand, the bees ignored him and got on with doing what bees do best, being bees.

The boy poked all the harder, his anger at being ignored spurred him on, almost with obsession. The hive collapsed under the assault, and the boy was left looking very sticky as the honey oozed over his head. The bees shook their heads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:32 AM

Gueast, was his name Padd... - oh no! I nearly gave away my deep anti-Irish prejudice then! That would have kept Tad-fat and Tir Eggbrain going for another 40 posts! Reading their other contributions I gather that like a certain kind of American they don't understand irony very well.

Curator, if I wanted to demonstrate that you conform to a certain crude and innacurate stereotype of Irishmen that I certainly don't share I would quote these two bits of your post, which were worryingly close together:

'Sorry but we did win!'.....', 'We will win our island's freedom...'

Plus, the fact that I regard getting out of Ireland as a victory for us went completely over your head. Bitterness? You forget, Ireland is something I scarcely ever think about except when it pops up in places like this. I think I live my life feeling more bitterness about the war of Jenkin's Ear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:44 AM

Shaking their heads like I am doing now, GUEST? Perhaps they too were laughing? :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:47 AM

We will win our Island's freedom from British rule.
We did win the battle against the British army, they are leaving, we aren't.
Sorry Ooh-Aah2
That thick Paddy in me is so hard to hide these days, to be sure, to be sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:54 AM

Watch it, Curator - Your ironies showing:-) And you forgot the 'beejabers'.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:00 PM

Dave, this thread just gets better and better...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:00 PM

Dave good to hear you there, it's the drink talking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:02 PM

99 is the new 100.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:03 PM

Curator, have you broke into any of those rebel songs yet?

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:06 PM

you might like to note that NI Protestants are *not* British, by the very definition of "Great Britain" comprising England, Scotland and Wales. This may make Ian Paisley and his merry men unhappy, but he's a racist wanker, so fuck him and the horse he rode in on. (Grab)

I disagree (not with your evaluation of IP, but:), Paisley is right and you are wrong regarding "British". As an adjective it is used for people from the UK including Northern Ireland, like in 'British passport' or 'British government'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:09 PM

Dave, there's another thread you can start. Do people that live in the Six Counties consider themselves British? Hell, maybe we should just discuss it here since we're having so much fun! :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

Epona - I refer your post to me (above). Most of what I read here seems full of bitterness, posturing and general extreme polarisation with no meeting of minds.

For myself again I feel no anti Irish bias or prejudice. I love the country and its people. I wish the North of all persuasions peace and a resolution to a problem that seems intransigent.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:11 PM

Helloooo, planet Curator.... the army's leaving because the IRA has ended it's armed campaign.... helloooo is there anyone home?

I'm delighted to hear that you're not leaving Ireland by the way. I've been reading some of your comments on other threads and have decided that you are a bit of a dick-head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:17 PM

Stu, that wish of yours is one of the nicest things I've read on this thread and though it's not a wish shared by all, I hope someday it will be. Cheers.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM

Thanks for that Epona. I have an Irish son in law and two Irish grandsons, which is why we spend a lot of time in Ireland.

Wherever we have been we have found nice people with the time to spend with us: we have shared music and laughter.

I don't understand the Northern situation well enough to comment sensibly. I suspect that most people there share the same hopes I do, that everyone will move to a peaceful resolution.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:39 PM

If you haven't heard the wonderful Antony John Clarke, Epona, I never tire of posting one of my favourite lyics of his here -

I want to eat at the same table
Break the same bread
March down the same streets
Hear the same bands.
Sing the same songs.
Say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years.


And it is only together that we can mend them.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 12:44 PM

... and as we all know, Oooohh-Aaargh, the RA ended it's armed struggle on condition that your mob went back through Belfast Lough..., the way they came in

Remember the GFA?

That was all the 'RA's doing.

Forgotten already?

Ooh Ahh, up the 'RA (I say),
Ooh Aah, up the 'RA


Great little name you got there...

The only bitterness I see is coming from the British amonst us, s&r

Anybody want to define 'British'?
Ooh-Ahh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:45 PM

My friend Ooh-Aah2
Glad you took the time to sound me out, please feel free to call me names, no problem with that, just a die hard Republican that knows his facts and loves play time with your type. I would guess you never offered your life to many cause, would I be right ? And I think you don't like Provo's, am I right again ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 02:46 PM

Wolfgang I admire you. Great post,excellent in fact. Always a pleasure to see your name appear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 03:00 PM

And don't forget dickheads, Curator. He doesn't like those either. ;)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 02:30 AM

Sounds like our professional Paddies are starting to simmer nicely...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 02:34 AM

"but if they are saying something else, in some code that an American of Irish and English (and French and German) descent cannot understand, than please educate me"

Apologies, art, I thought you were talking in general (the 'than' got me...).

However "The question posed was not whether individuals who are Irish or who have Irish ancestry think that there is now or ever was anti-Irish bias."

Their stories are entirely relevant, however, art. Too long have the 'British' been policing themselves on issues such as these. If this thread gets people to examine that which they throw off the tongue without examination, I think we will have gotten somewhere.

Interesting story about the bees, Guest.
I know one about wasps

Graham.
The 'fairly scientific' study was simply pulling up all the Irish threads and reading them.
Yes, we did that.
'Anonymous' guests still are posters in my eyes, despite what the general concensus among mudcatters is concerned.
'Trolls' in such circumstances still show an anti-Irish Bias, and may well be members, as you can I'm sure apprecxiated.
I do not disregard their post, just because they don't identify themselves.

What I have seen here on this thread and the 'Get Loyalist weapons' thread is a handful of people who do feel that the Nationalist Community in the Sick Counties have been given the short end of the stick over the years, and who do distance themselves from the actions their Governments have taken over this time.

I realise that this particular thread could just turn into a talking shop, where everybody agrees that those who post to it are free of any bias, and then we all go off to get on with our day.

I know that people aren't going to come in here and say "Yes, count me in with the Anti-Irish, please...."

We want to DISCUSS my contention.
We want to EXPLORE why the term 'British' is relevant to some people's sense of belonging.

We want to hear what IRISH people have experienced.

Because while NOBODY I KNOW hates the 'English', 'Scots' or the 'Welsh' (in the context of hating someone because of their place of birth), MOST PEOPLE I KNOW hate the 'British'

Why is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 02:48 AM

If you hate a large group of people without differentiation it is called 'racism' mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 02:59 AM

Oh we differentiate, Ooh-Ahh2

That is precisely the point.

Where abouts do you reside within it's four walls, for instance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:55 AM

Is this one of those Zen questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:56 AM

I did a search on 'British Race' (just for the craic...), and I got 'Silverstone', and something about a 10km walk in London. A little bit about Kenneth Clarke, but nothing remotely Briton

What British race would you be talking about, there, Ooh-Ahh? This one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:01 AM

Very clever, if you're about 5 years old. I'm a Primary School teacher and hear these smart-alec excuses for mindless prejudice quite often. Your answer is about as convincing as 'I can't have called him a black bastard because look, he's brown'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:02 AM

"Is this one of those Zen questions?"

No.

Just wondering where you were born?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

Aah-ahh, Ooh-aah, If being 'black' was a state of mind, and being 'brown' was the visual observation, the 'bastard' epithet would only be in the mindset of the former.

People who observe without the need for adjectives or superlatives tend to be more balanced.

But, sure a 5 year old kid could tell you that


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:15 AM

What RACE am I being RACIST to if I say I hate the British, Ooh-Aah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:19 AM

Three tiny posts on the trot, are you trying to sneak up on the 200th before Leadfingers gets up?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:22 AM

Because while NOBODY I KNOW hates the 'English', 'Scots' or the 'Welsh' (in the context of hating someone because of their place of birth), MOST PEOPLE I KNOW hate the 'British'

Ahhh - So the light begins to dawn upon me. Takes a while to get through this Gnomish skull but it gets there eventualy:-) Is what you are saying that it is not the peoples of a particular land you and your compatriates hate but the people who believe they are 'British' because they relate in some way to the old British Imperial rule? If that is the case why did you not say so in the first place? Oh - sorry - silly me. I guess it was because the discussion was about the average Brit being anti-Irish. Not the average Irishman being anti-Brit. I must have got it wrong somewhere;-)

Anyhow, that aside, if I am right I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly. I just think the wording could have been more precise. If you were to say, for instance, that the average British Imperialist is anti-Irish - Agreed. But how many Britons (ie denizens of England, Scotland and Wales) are Imperialists nowadays? None that I know. Perhaps it is more rife in Ireland where Loyalists, such as the mad minister himself, seem to hang on to the last vestiges of the empire like the rabid dogs they are. If you are measuring the whole of Britain (the citizenship, not the idea) by their performance I believe you may need to rethink how you are measuring the 'average Brit'.

If, as I suggested very early on, we had decided what you meant by the term 'average Brit' we could have saved a lot of time and effort. Hope we have cleared it up now. Have we?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Thanks ted. Nice for you to join us.

"If, as I suggested very early on, we had decided what you meant by the term 'average Brit' we could have saved a lot of time and effort

I wanted to see how subliminal the term 'Brit' is, Dave, in the psychological make-up of the average English person.
I, and the rest of the lads (and lassies) knew what starting point were were working from.

I think we just wanted to see when the penny would drop.

Please note also, that I think 'British' to be an overlay designed years ago to keep their individual citizens 'Nationalism-free' (in the Scots, Welsh, Irish instances, for instance)

The English people, on the other hand, have always acquiesced in the term; a lot without quite realising what the definition of this 'over group' is.

It is one of these terms that reach into the past, and instil a sense of superiority with one, in a way that 'English' just doesn't do.

Here we go....

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:08 AM

Tut, tut, Tiocfaidh! So it was just a test to see how long it would take me to realise that you didn't mean 'British', you meant 'British'. I am very highly honoured indeed to have all this attention lavished upon me. Little did I think when I got up that morning long ago I would have stumbled into your subtle but deadly trap. Little did I realise that when the term 'the average Brit is anti-Irish' was used it was just a psycological test to see who would realise that the phrase 'average Brit' did not mean that at all. Yes, certainly too subtle for me. Caught me out fair and square:-)

But tell me this though. Have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish? In my small mind I thought this discussion was about that. Can you admit yet that we are not or are there still more bombshells to be released..?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:13 AM

Sorry - Forgot to add that if the veracity of my last paragraph is in doubt may I repeat my opening lines of the thread.

On another thread it has been stated categoricaly that the 'average Brit' is anti-Irish.

Is this true?

I am British and I am not anti anyone. No-one I know is anti anyone. Not by race anyway!


Now, can I ask the question again with particular emphasis on the not by race bit?:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM

No, Tiocfaidh, but for you I'm beginning to suspect I might make an exception!

For the record, I am a Yorkshireman with Scottish, French Jewish and Irish ancestors (my paternal Grandmother was a Herley). I am English because Yorkshire is in England, British because that's what it says on my passport, European because I believe that it is high time that nationalism was laid to rest along with tribalism (and, I could add, atheist because the same can be said of religion).

I have no sympathy with the likes of Paisley. I believe that the partition of Ireland is yet another example of post-imperial residual cockups (cf Iraq, Palestine, Cyprus, Punjab, Chechnya, Yugoslavia, Kryzgistan etc) which are not unique to the British Empire.

However, the solution to all the partitions or artificial amalgamations of countries or regions that cause strife in the world is not to blow up soldiers, policemen, small children or anyone else. I believe the answer is to listen to the 99.99% of the populations who want nothing more than to live their lives in peace and reasonable comfort, and close our ears to the 0.01% of criminals, idealogues, "priests" and politicians who foment discord to advance their own narrow, bigoted agenda, whether this goes by the name of republicanism, protestantism, Islam or whatever.

Alan


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM

"Have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish?

Well, we haven't gone down the Scottish and Welsh paths, just yet, Dave. But if we examine the term 'British', we may not need to.

I wasn't 'testing' you, by the way, or otherwise 'playing silly games' (a pre-empt for anyone who wishes to sidestep the discussion again...), but it was/is interesting to see how the term gets thrown about by those who aren't totally aware of it's connotations...., and those who are in no doubt as to it's meaning.

This is the premise, after all.

The 'Irish Unionist' is 'British'.
The 'English Unionist' is 'British'.
Isn't 'British', Unionist, in that case?

And if one equals the other, does the term not subjugate the sub-group one comes from (i.e. Scot, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Cornish.......)?

Is it not 'anti-Irish' by definition?
Is the average not somewhere between 'apathetic, and downright hostile'?

Am I allowed to say quod erat demonstrandum, now?

Or is there a more Politically Correct way of defining British, these days?

;=)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:32 AM

"However, the solution to all the partitions or artificial amalgamations of countries or regions that cause strife in the world is not to blow up soldiers, policemen, small children or anyone else"

No other road was available, Alan.
All of what you describe happened because no one tried to address our grieviences.

No-one cared about the Nationalists.
You have to admit that.

The Armed Struggle worked, Lanfranc. That is not prejudice, anti-Englishness, or anything else.

It is a cool statement of fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:47 AM

Lanfrank - for the record. You are a total WANKER.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:48 AM

I have been asking myself am I really anti British ? Answer no. I have spent time in England, Scotaland and Wales and have to say those I met were great people. Just like the rest of us, paying bills, keeping the roof over our heads and moaning about the weather. As a Republican I expect understanding for my cause, just as many in Britain wish to live free from the fear of scenes such as last month in London. If I was asked am I anti British policy in Ireland, then yes I am. I resent my lands under crown rule. As I said we are all very much the same as people. The British still talk about how they feared and fought against an army/government of occupation sixty years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:49 AM

"Have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish?

Simple question.

Well, we haven't gone down the Scottish and Welsh paths, just yet, Dave. But if we examine the term 'British', we may not need to.

Political answer.

Can I say something in latin as well? When I learn to spell it?

Cheers

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:51 AM

Thanks for a modicum of sense Curator. I have spent time in England, Scotaland and Wales and have to say those I met were great people. Just like the rest of us, paying bills, keeping the roof over our heads and moaning about the weather Just what I have been trying to say.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:52 AM

... sorry ted...
... though do feel free to contribute some more of your scintillating sacrasm and rapid repartée...

"Not by race anyway!"

It's a different discussion, Dave.
I'm am not putting 'racism' tags on the Anti-Irishness.

Let's start at seeing why 'British' is so important so some people (passport entries notwitstanding)

"I believe the answer is to listen to the 99.99% of the populations who want nothing more than to live their lives in peace and reasonable comfort, and close our ears to the 0.01% of criminals, idealogues, "priests" and politicians who foment discord to advance their own narrow, bigoted agenda, whether this goes by the name of republicanism, protestantism, Islam or whatever."

The 99.99% have a tendency to elect the 0.01%, Alan.
Yourselves included, as shown by the intransigence of successive British Governments over the years as regards 'The Irish Problem'


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 06:06 AM

Look, Dave, it's all down to the understanding of what 'British' is.

The term has gone into circulation to include people who do not subscribe to the actions their Government perform in their name.

I do not refer to these people as 'Brits', even if they do so themselves.

I'm referring to the 'Brits'; that other shower of supremacists 'with an abnormal Britannia rules the waves gene'.

Whether they are Scottish, Welsh, English makes no difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 06:26 AM

.... I'll make it easier...

I do not think the average citizen of England, Scotland, and Wales is anti-Irish. Ok?

I do believe however that a certain percentage of the population of those countries define their Britishness according to an ideal that is, or should be defunct in the modern World.

I also know that Protestant shipyard workers have exactly the same mortgage worries, etc. that Nationalists now do, and yet I am not I am not anti-Protestant.

I am very careful (always have been) about what I hate and why I hate it.

To be honest, I hate nothing, or no-one.

I just despair of symbols.

And the average English person can hold the key to that.

If they, too, examine the meaning of the term


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

I'm am not putting 'racism' tags on the Anti-Irishness

And I hate nothing apart from racism and the French;-)

At the risk of repeating myself, have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish? By all means feel free to start another thread on what constitutes British.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 06:35 AM

... but the question is, Dave, is the average Brit anti-Irish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:18 AM

Seeing as I have already said if you want to define what an average Brit is feel free to start another thread I would rather you answer the question "have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish?".

The thread title is 'Are we anti-Irish' after all. I was the originator I think I can safely define 'we' as the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales. I do consider myself such.

I think I can safely say that we are not.

After the statement "MOST PEOPLE I KNOW hate the 'British'", however, can we also safely say that the average Irishman is anti-British? With your definition of 'British' being not one who lives on the UK mainland but one who sticks to the remnants of British Imperialism can we also presume that the average Irishman holds the same opinion? Therefore is it true to say that the average Irishman hates a group of bigots who live in the past?

If so we are in total agreement and must begin to wonder what we are discussing...

:D

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:24 AM

Sorry, should have added to 'the average Irishman hates a group of bigots who live in the past'. So does the average Englisman, Scotsman and Welshman:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:35 AM

Lads
Maybe the word Generalisation fits in somewhere ? Whilst walking the streets of Ireland and being stopped by British soldiers, or seeing my home searched or listening to British ministers telling whats best for me in their view, I do tend to hold a viewpoint. Whilst living in Britain among working class that either don't give a toss about the situation over the water or welcome my sort into their lives, I hold another viewpoint. We are all guilty of this. I do agree with Tiocfaidh, In Ireland they are British. Did you think I was going to ask a soldier where he came from ? or do you think he would of told me ? It's just like here in Ireland. There are many law abiding peace loving people that don't care about politics at all, and then there are bastards like me !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:39 AM

Yes, Dave, you started the thread, but the premise was not correct.

You started it after I said the 'average Brit is at least as anti-Irish as the average Unionist'

I have been debating that, and I've been waiting for you (... and the rest...) to do so, as well.

MOST PEOPLE I KNOW, means, most people I know, Dave.
I speak neither for, nor on behalf of, the 'average Irish person'.
That you could start a thread on, if the whim overtakes you.

So are you saying that the average Brit is Anti-Irish, or wha?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:41 AM

You posted while I was writing, Curator.

That is the difference I'm talking about


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM

Thanks again, Curator. Generalisation is the term I would use as well! Average-Brit is far too much of a generalisation to have any meaning whatsoever. The British that you and Tiocfaidh have come across in Ireland are undoubtably as anti-Irish as they come. But my point is that this does NOT constitute the 'average Brit'. There are 60 million of us for heavens sake. The ones that stop you on the street, search your homes and tell you it is for your own good are a tiny minority of those.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 07:59 AM

Yes, Dave, you started the thread, but the premise was not correct.

WOW! Now have I not only been trapped into using the term Brit as a subliminal message to keep the population under control but I also do not know why I started the thread. I am most impressed by your psycho-analytical prowess:-) Is there good money in it btw? I may take it up myself if so...

Seriously though - I'm off for a while, incognito, (Well, in Crawley actualy which is near enough...) so I had better put my money where my mouth is. You ask 'So are you saying that the average Brit is Anti-Irish, or wha?' It is a straightforward question and I will answer it as such. No, the average Brit is NOT anti-Irish. There is of course a rider to it (how did you guess?). There is no such thing as an average Brit!

Perhaps you would now answer my strightforward question.

Have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish?.

And even more straightforward. Are we?

Hope to check back in on Thursday night or Friday morning at the latest so keep it going, Lads and Lasses:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 08:02 AM

The 'British' that The Curator and I have come across here, ("... undoubtably as anti-Irish as they come." - you making generalisations for me...)Dave, is the mindset I'm talking about.

The average 'upholder of the Union'.

'Britishness' may mean many things to many people; one of the things I was hoping to explore here, rather than start another thread.... (had you titled the thread 'Are the British Anti-Irish', we may have gotten there quicker...)

I have no objection to a 600+ post thread.

Could make for interesting reading...

.... yet


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 08:03 AM

As you are no doubt aware I live in the North of Ireland. The series of failed British ministers that come across to us always use the term British. It's British army, British rule of law, British Government and British everything. We hear the word. Yes that word British. I can see where Dave is coming from, he doesn't like being tarred with the same brush. You are proud of your nationality, fair play to you. And Tiocfaidh I don't know if you live in Ireland or did, but I would imagine with your vast knowledge you must be either. I not only see your point I share it. We get the word spoon feed to us, so you can all see why this thread is at the point it is.Hope this makes sense ! Stil missing my old mate Ooh-Aah2 though, he's bound to kick me in the balls about this somehow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 08:09 AM

"Have we actualy decided if the average citizen of England, Scotland and Wales is anti-Irish"

Don't know about you, Dave, but I will refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago (as all the great politicians say...)

at 06:26 AM, to be precise.

Enjoy yourself in Crawley.

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 08:11 AM

Nice part of the world, weather looks to be good in far south for next seven days


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM

Ha Ha! Fooled you - I needed to get back home and pack a toothbrush before I set off for the Wild South and couldn't resist looking in once more time! I am off, honest, SOON. Don't tell the boss I ain't gone yet:-)

Thanks, Tiocfaidh, I had not indeed seen your answer of 6:26 and that is the only answer I could have wanted realy! Very good of you to say it.

Now, seeing as I am realy off this time, I can indeed leave the thread to get on with Britishness in all it's (ex)glory. Quite happy to kick you off in fact.

It's about time the term was dropped. It has nothing but negative connotations across the globe. It harks back to the time when the sun never set etc. I am not, never have been and never will be a Brit. I am parochialy Mancunian and globaly human. All the bits in between are made up by other people wanting to rule my life. The terms 'nigger' and 'yid' are very fortunately now things of the past. Lets make sure that the same happens to brit. Except of course in song where anything goes;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM

You are a gentleman, Dave.

Well, flamenco ted.

What do you reckon about the concept?

Or must we wait with baited breath for the 200th post, and more of your valuable insight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:09 AM

You have to wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM

The best things ARE worth waiting for! :) Good for you ted. Haha...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:39 AM

Now I know why you wanted the early shift this morning, Tiocfaidh...
Shit... I missed it!

Fair Play, Dave....

ted's still pissed off at DeValera, though...
remember tho' ted, that 199 is not the new 200..

Hello all.
Having a good day, are we?

The sun is shining, the sky is blue, and all is not right with the World.
Let's make that better, shall we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM

We're trying honestly. But this git keeps telling us we're all a bunch of bastards. Not a cloud in the sky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

Well if the cap fits...

I hear Burberry have stopped making them now, though...

That's maybe how you know there's not a cloud in the sky


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:52 AM

Alright. So, we've then come to the conclusion that the term British (or Brit) can be used in two ways: 1)used by those living in Great Britain that voluntarily choose to identify themselves with the term only because of the area in which they live or because it's written on a passport or someother form of official documentation
2)Used by "one who sticks to the remnants of British Imperialism"

And so then, when asked if the average Brit is anti-Irish, if dealing with #2 usage, the answer would be unequivocally yes precisely because they stick to the remnants of British Imperialism.

And I can see why so many were frustrated and kept saying, "No, my passport says this and I'm not anti-Irish!" and so on. Yes, I have finally seen the light! Now I understand why our English mudcatters were getting heated. Sorry, lads, but I too was at fault here, thinking narrowly of the Brit as in definition #2 because those are the only Brits I know. I know plenty of Englishmen and Scotsmen, but they are English and Scottish to me, not British. And now I get it! Christ, that took me forever. :)

Tirghra


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:58 AM

Da daaaaa!

Thanks Tírghra


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

Tirghra, I now understand the confusion myself. In the US, "Brit" is basically synonymous with "citizen of the UK". We understand that there are subsets of Brit, such as the English and the Scots, but I had never heard of the term having a specific meaning such as one who is nostalgic for British Imperialism.

I guess its similar, in some respects, to the multiple meanings of the word "Yank". Most of the world uses it for any citizen of the US, but some people from our southeastern states find it offensive...because to them the word refers to "the enemy" during the American Civil War.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 11:06 AM

It was my pleasure and honour to be of service...

Tirghra


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM

Artbrooks, having family that was raised in southern US, you are completely right. A Yank used to refer to an American not from the northeast is completely incorrect because the rest of the United States population are not Yankees (unless you consider the northerners that migrate to the south for winter!). I never, therefore, call any of them yanks because I'm likely to get shot.

Tirghra


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

So....

Am I allowed to say Quod Erat Demonstrandum, NOW?

Any Brits like to come in in defence of my contention that the average you is as anti-Irish as the average Unionist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:21 AM

I'll say it. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

Good on ye, Epona

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:59 AM

the average you is as anti-Irish as the average Unionist

Do you really believe this?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:17 AM

Oh Wolfgang, read the thread, will you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

I'm British and I love Ireland and I am not anti any of the irish people I have met!!
Just my tuppence worth! :0)

xLx


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

Excellent post, Wolfgang.

As regards the English language, command subtleties of, and you, it would seem that all the stars have collided here in this thread, facilitating the brushing up of said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:05 PM

Why, though do you feel the need to classify yourself as British, Laura (assuming you live in either England, Wales, or Scotland)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

umm...... I guess it's because Dave the Gnome said are the Brisish anti-Irish. So I was saying that I am British (because I am) and that I'm not anti-Irish!
And umm... I've got my words a bit tangled here I think.
*shrug*
xLx


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:18 PM

Are you from England, Scotland, or Wales?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM

Hannam annam
doo doo be doobie
.... Hannam annam
doo doobie doo
..Hannam annam
doo doo be doobie, de doobie; de doobie
..de doobie doobie do, do, do do do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

I vote England. What do you vote, Tir Eoghain?

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

Canadian


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Now, now, now..., give her a chance


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:55 PM

Turks and Caicos?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM

.... easy ted, we're not there, yet....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

County Armagh...Phew, that's a funny one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:11 PM

Hilarious.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:14 PM

I should certainly hope not, friendly County rivalries notwithstanding

I think there's still a bit of confusion as to the definition of 'Brit'

Wolfgang has fallen at the first fence, I see.

So she's in good company if that is the case


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

For any that may be confused about the ways in which the term "brit" is being used, please refer to my post of 31 Aug 05 - 10:52 AM. I think that sums up the definition situation. Let's see if that post will be the stepping block to help them get over that fence, Tir Eoghain. If not, this is going to be a long thread....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

I always thought of myself as an average Brit/English person. If I was going to be pedantic I would say I was a Yorkshire Lass because that is where I was born. I have Scottish and Irish ancestry as recent as my Grandparents and I certainly don't think of myself as anti-Irish or anti-Scottish or anti-anything for that matter. If I was anti-Irish I certainly wouldn't have married into an Irish family. This thread has made some interesting points but it is full of childish bickering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:42 PM

I like that word: "pedantic". I'm going to use it more often I think. You're right about the bickering, GUEST, but once you get past that, what's more important is the part you said before that. This thread HAS made some interesting points, which is great for those of us who have been following along. And Tirghra, thanks for the condensed version of much of this debate. When put like that, it is easy to see why there was so much misunderstanding!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:43 PM

"I always thought of myself as an average Brit/English person."

With respect, Guest, but what is 'Brit/English'?

That's what the 'childish bickering' is all about


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:56 PM

Sorry...the GUEST above was me....I seem to have lost my biscuit!!

Exactly what is Brit/English...Im English because I was born in England like my husband is technically Irish because he was born in Ireland...other than that I'm stumped!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Look at it another way, GUEST.

Which is more important to you in your life: Being British or being English?

... and Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:59 PM

I would check out Tirghra's post from Aug. 31 where he dissected the argument that's been going on. That would help you, I think, as far as understanding the different versions of Britishness we've been discussing. Hope that helps!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM

It's about time the term was dropped. It has nothing but negative connotations across the globe. It harks back to the time when the sun never set etc. I am not, never have been and never will be a Brit. I am parochialy Mancunian and globaly human. All the bits in between are made up by other people wanting to rule my life. The terms 'nigger' and 'yid' are very fortunately now things of the past. Lets make sure that the same happens to brit. Except of course in song where anything goes ;-)

Dave The gnome - 31 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:06 PM

Tír Eoghain .....I said that the Guest above was me...I lost my biscuit..read what I posted.

Being British or English I have to say isn't that important to me. Im not going to start arguing about it. I am me and there are lots of aspects that make up 'me' and being English is only a small part of it and certainly not the most important part. The things that are important to me are my family and friends, love and security, music and laughter those sort of things.

I suppose what I am saying is where a person comes from is not important to me. I am not anti-race or anti-Irish and I resent being tarred with the same brush that those who are. It's a huge generalisation to say that most of the British/English are anti-Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:13 PM

You posted while I was still writing, catsPHiddle, which just goes to prove that there's a simple answer to most things.

If being British or English isn't that important to you, why did you say you were both, in that case?

One more thing, however. When does one start becoming 'technically Irish'?
How many years does one have to be out of the country before one's Nationality becomes a technicality?

There should be a simple answer to that, also


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM

catsPHiddle, hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

Tirghra stated: "Alright. So, we've then come to the conclusion that the term British (or Brit) can be used in two ways: 1)used by those living in Great Britain that voluntarily choose to identify themselves with the term only because of the area in which they live or because it's written on a passport or someother form of official documentation
2)Used by "one who sticks to the remnants of British Imperialism"

And so then, when asked if the average Brit is anti-Irish, if dealing with #2 usage, the answer would be unequivocally yes precisely because they stick to the remnants of British Imperialism."

With your use of British, you be part of the group that uses the first definition. And you are absolutely correct to say that it's a huge generalization to say that those who identify themselves with this definition are anti-Irish.

But, when dealing with usage #2, as said by Tirghra, can you see that it is not a generalization when used that way? Sorry, trying to make this make sense...hope you're following me because I think I may have just lost myself! :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:19 PM

Things are never simple are they? I said I was British/English because it is a fact and states where I was born. I think nationality apart from being the place you were born is a state of mind. On the 'technically'Irish thing...if my other half wants to go into details he will but its not my place. He is Irish by birth...born and raised there but hasn't lived there for a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:27 PM

Well then he's Irish, I would imagine. Usually follows the country you're born in, Nationality does....

You, however said that you were born in England.
That would make you English, I presume...

Why then, and this is the tough bit does one need to supercede that with 'British'?

Isn't 'English' enough?

I agree that family etc, are more important; lots of things are, I would imagine.

Why say 'British/English', then.

It seems as absurd as 'Londonderry'


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:33 PM

To interject, Londonderry IS the epitome of absurdity. Derry is the name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:17 PM

I'm here - In body if not mind...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:18 PM

and just to make sure no-one misunderstands...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:19 PM

I am not on holiday yet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:19 PM

but will be after tomorrow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:20 PM

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:20 PM

I was working the last 2 days...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:31 PM

Yayyyy! Got the 200th. I would have said so in this message but Epona nicked the 199th:-( I hate you...;-) I was hiding behind the Gusset handle and hoping no-one would see me:-)

I was working. The f£$%^&g scsi card was broke. Then the f$%^&*g tape drive didn't work. Glad I'm on hols for a fortnight after tomorrow. We are having American visitors for the next 2 weeks so I will be checking in but not too often.


While I am here (following a 260 mile drive, Special Chow Mein, a bottle of Gallo's finest Chardonay and a bottle of Fursty Ferret...:-) I must say that Tirghra's description seems fine to me.

Now. How about the United Kingdom...

Cheers

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM

Hahaha! I KNEW it was you Dave! :)

The United Kingdom? For starters, it's not united....:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM

PS - I don't realy hate you Epona. But if you could see your way to getting me a bottle of Glen Morangie Maderia wood finish, a ticket to a Jethro Tull concert and a night with the girl of my dreams you would go even higher in my estimation...

(You wouldn't be that girl by any chance would you?)

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM

Only if you're an Irishman with healthy dose of attitude...or a good bottle of blackberry brandy. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:43 PM

epitome - how many syllables are you using there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:44 PM

PS Dave: I'm the girl of every man's dreams ;) and Jethro Tull? What's that about man? We'll have to save it for another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

How about a Pole with a healthy dose of attitude? The 'mercuns make as much fun of us as the Brits do of the Irish:-) Blackeberry Brandy? Not got any of that I'm afraid but how about a bottle of 60% abv Absinthe and a hydroponic tank full of the finest Nederweed?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:48 PM

4. Definition: a standard or typical example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

If she doesn't take you up on the offer, I'll take the Absinthe off your hands, Dave...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

Well, the absinthe is a start. It's green at least. If catsPHiddle is right, and nationality is partly a state of mind, maybe you can will yourself to be Irish! :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:56 PM

Love yer country as much as you want, Tirghra, but you can buy yer own Absinthe:-) (Asda - £14.99. Made in Poland btw...)

Cheers

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:58 PM

Congratulations on your 200th Dave.

If ever a man deserved it, it is you

I digress, however....

Is not the 'United Kingdom', just perpetuating the myth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM

Aye, 'appen, to use my own vernacular. Anyroads - I'm off to bed. I can still see white lines running down the middle of me eyeballs. Catch up tomorrow and see you all randomly over the course of the next fortnight.

Unless of course Epona would rather see me other than randomly...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:05 PM

I'd like to hear what the Scottish and Welsh think! We already know what the Irish think...

E

And Dave, I was trying to steal the 200th from you, I was just too quick! (Or maybe you were too slow and got lucky?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:09 PM

Dave, you couldn't handle me. That's a promise! Go to sleep...:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:26 PM

yes I always think 4, but some people say the tome bit- like a book, tome


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM

I'm back - to backtrack up to my last post.
Well - I'm English. But I said I was British because in the first post it said 'British'. If it had been 'are the English anti-Irish?' I would have said I was English.
I was just... conforming.
I'm proud of coming from the South-West (don't ask why cos I don't know - most people cant wait to get away!), most people from Cornwall (that I know anyway) would say they were Cornish. Same as a lot of people from Yorkshire don't say they're form England they say they're from Yorkshire.
It's just - something that you do innit!?
ANd if you've lived in the same place for ages, or the place you come from, then it becomes part of your identity. Or it does for me anyway as I've lived in Somerset (ooh-arr land if your name is Greg Stephens) all my life. So it's sort of part of who I am.
ANYWAY - yeh. Thats it basically!
xLx


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:22 AM

"It's just - something that you do innit!?

Unfortunately that sounds just like what the scorpion said, while he was hitching a lift across the river.

'Cornish' is a Celtic Nationality in it's own right, however, though I know that identity has been sort of squeezed out of most of them.
'Yorkish' isn't, as far as I can remember from the old history books

Tis interesting, though, how many identities 'British' people have to deal with.

No wonder there's so much confusion


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:59 AM

'British'? Not I.

English on my dads side, Welsh on me Mums. This is an interesting discussion because now it appears to have trancended the argument 'Are we anti-irish' and become 'who are we'?

The United Kingdom (often referred to as Great Britain) is an artifice constructed to:

a) Try to keep different nationalities from recognising their own cultures by homogenizing them into a single artificial 'nationality'.

b) A way of letting the Royal Family lay claim over us all (sod that).

c) Creating a tourist industry for Americans to drool over whilst missing the best bits (which are not beefeaters, Buck Palace, the Houses of Parliment etc).

d) Ignore the real continuities the ordinary people of these Isle have with each other and are one of our greatest strengths.

BUT, as Tir Eoghain has already mentioned the subject, does being born in a country automatically endow you with all the traits of that particular national character? Do we lose all the influence for our ancestors becuase we were born in a different country?

Personally, I don't think so. That would make Shane McGowan English for a start, so that must be wrong. I know people born in Germany who are not Germans etc.

And in my eyes, we don't have to deal with so may confused identities as you may think (though many ignorant people intermix Britian/England). We have scousers, brummies and mancs the same way the Irish have Kerrymen, Ulstermen etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:42 AM

"...does being born in a country automatically endow you with all the traits of that particular national character"

Good point, stigweard.

'Automatically' you could only use if 'traits' are being defined as genetic factors.
I was born in 'Northern Ireland', and me and Shane McGowan are in the same boat in that sense, only in so far as to the fact that we are both entitled to hold Irish Passports...
I, like Shane McGowan am also entitled to hold British Passports.

So yes, parentage, where you see your soul as being, all play their parts in forming one's identity

"Please note also, that I think 'British' to be an overlay designed years ago to keep their individual citizens 'Nationalism-free' (in the Scots, Welsh, Irish instances, for instance) - Tiocfaidh

'Northern Irish' people have always had a choice about what passports they choose to hold. Scottish and Welsh people have no other option than to hold 'British' ones. That may change; I hope it does.
Dave may possibly be entitled to hold a Polish passport, for instance; perhaps even qualify to play for their football team.
Such are the 'dynamics' of nationality.

I would much prefer to see 'Country' passports, otherwise people might think a Scottish fella comes from Wales, or even (...cos it's written on your passport, also...), 'Northern Ireland'

I think like Dave (and by the looks of it stigweard, yourself), that 'British' is an ambiguous burden ordinary people have to carry, which denotes absolutely nothing, except oppression and Colonialism.

There are those who prefer it just the way it is, stigweard; all connotations intact.
That is the 'British' I and other Irish people have experienced; the average one, of which has been contended to be anti-Irish.

Yeah, of course, though..., I'm from Tyrone, Ulster, Ireland.

It sort of stops at Ireland, though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:51 AM

Ahhhh - Good nights kip and a nice restful morning back at the ranch soon gets rid of them there motorway blues:-)

Shame, Epona, we could have had a whale of a time with that absinthe at the Tull gig. Never mind. There are things that were never meant to be...

Meanwhile, back from fantasy land to the topic in hand:D We have agreed that the peoples of Scotland, Wales and England are not anti-Irish but the British are. If Wolfgang is right and Great Britain is currently made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the peoples of the Scotland, Wales and England are not anti-Irish then the only British remaining are the Irish ones. So it must follow that the only anti-Irish Brits are the Irish ones;-) Confuses the hell out of me!

Seriously though, as Stigweard says above, we are now discussing 'who are we?'. I don't find it incongruous at all that I can be many things at once. I think we are all a little like that. What I think we need to discuss is how we address the 'Britishness' issues that have been brought to light. While I disagree with Johnson (I think it was him anyway?) when he says that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel I would say that housing feelings of antagonism to anther race and hiding that behind the mask of patriotism is indeed something to be frowned upon.

I am proud to be English. I think generaly we do not celebrate our Englishness enough. Those people who think that to do so somehow equates to racism have obviously never been to Ireland or Scotland or Wales where the traditions of those countries are proudly displayed for all to see. We have become frightened of the view that the 'British' are seen as the Victorian Imperial conquerers of old. It is unfortunate that British does seem to be interchangeable with English to some - I have now made the concious decision to try and steer clear of using the term ever again!

As to the United Kingdom... It has been mentioned it is no longer united. Nor does it have a King. How the term can even be used is beyond me:-)

So, rant off, can I summarise and perhaps lead into the new discussion? The 'British', meaning the peoples of the lands within Great Britain are not anti-Irish. The British, meaning the generic term for the peoples who brought about this mess in the first place and wish to continue the debacle are indeed anti-Irish. The question now is how do we distinguish between the two in conversation? I suggested earlier that the term Brit should be commited to the history books. Perhaps not. Perhaps we should use the term 'British' as an abreviation for the people of all the countries making up the British isles and the term 'Brit' or 'Brits' to describe the nutters who believe that the sun never sets on the empire? Or would that be too confusing? Who can come up with a better name? I am sure we will get some good suggestions;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:00 AM

Is not the term 'British Isles' wrong then as well, Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:13 AM

... One thing at a time, Ciaran...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:14 AM

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:03 AM

It seems simple enough to call the English just that, English. The Scottish, Scottish and the Welsh, Welsh. I agree Dave that the term British needs to be put away (put down perhaps?). But the problem seems thus: many people believe the term to be interchangeable with English, which we've agreed it's not. So, Dave, time to start telling your mates to stop using the term. Maybe it will spread from there...

Stigweard, great post.

Oh, and Dave, I have a few names that could replace the term "Brit" that refers to the defenders of imperialism...and I'm sure Tir Eoghain and Tiocfaidh have a few as well. And I'm also sure you can read my mind to know what kind of terms they would be. I'll leave that there. And how was your visit to fantasy land? :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:01 PM

Oh, and just to kind of stir things up, there *are* people in Scotland and Wales who *do* hate English people. Look up the actions of the various Scots and Welsh nationalists. Some of them aren't able to distinguish between the actions of a Parliament based in London (which has sometimes crapped on both, although equally often it's also crapped on England), and people coming from England. Some of them just want an excuse for a punch-up.

I don't know any Welsh nationalists, but I do know Scottish nationalists whose definition of Scottish is basically "not English". It's great winding them up! ;-) And if we quote the UK National Anthem as having bits in the later verses (which no-one knows) about Scotland/Wales/Ireland - well that was written many years ago, but the Scots consciously chose, 10 years ago, an anthem celebrating their victory over an English army about 700 years ago, instead of anything celebrating "Scottishness" (although for those people I referred to earlier, "beating the English" would be the very embodiment of Scottishness). Go figure.

So things ain't that simple either... :-/

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

Is not the term 'British Isles' wrong then as well, Dave? .

Hmmmm. Not sure T.E. I think geographicaly it is probably correct. Just as the Hebrides is a term for that collection of islands or Europe is the term for the (motley?) collection of countries to the right of us on a map.

Certainly a much better term than Great Britain!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:18 PM

If we're trying to get rid of the term British, then "British Isles" would be incorrect. At least, I think that's what Tir Eoghain is saying. So, what else could we call them? I'm willing to volunteer my name to the cause: Isles of Epona. Yes, that has a nice ring to it!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

Graham,

I know several Scotsman that will tell you without hesitation that they "hate the British." I've never heard them say they hate the English though, which is interesting and seems to fit in with the rest of our discussion.

Has is been your experience that they've said they hate the English?

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:16 AM

One of the most fascinating and interesting threads to be found on the Mudcat in quite a while. Questioning, debating, and civil. Congrats to all.

Epona, I love the screen name, and your obvious love of Irish culture. But while we are being pedantic, you might have chosen the name of a legendary Irish woman instead of a Hallstadt Celt (Austrian), eh? (ducking for cover here, sniggle, sniggle)

So yes, parentage, where you see your soul as being, all play their parts in forming one's identity

It was great to see this comment from one of my cousin's on the Eastern side of the pond. It is what I have said about "Irish Americans" right along. To be sure their are many who are Irish one day a year and know nothing of their culture. But there is also a very large group, myself included, who have been raised by immigrant families to be "Irish". We are raised with the customs, the music and the language. We see ourselves that way, fully understanding that we weren't born there. But Irish nonetheless. It is our identity and our soul place.

BTW, in my family one never refers to it as "Northern Ireland". It is the north of Ireland. We do not see it as a separate state. The political reality, when it is all said and done, may be something different. But to my family thus it shall ever be.

As to the main topic, I don't feel like one can paint with such a broad brush. It's like asking white Americans if they are anti black. Ludicrous assertion, and gratuitous as well. It can be denied just as gratuitously. Or answered affirmatively in a gratuitous fashion. Of the folks from England, Yorkshire, Wales, Scotland, and all the other parts of Britain, that I have met, I have yet to meet any that are anti Irish. That is not to say that I haven't met those that hate the armed struggle and those that perpetuate it.

The larger issue raised here is the provocative "what does being British mean?" discussion. I note the probing questions by Tir.

Identity ...... wow ...... this is getting good.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:16 AM

What a silly thread.

I've never met an average Brit. I've met English, Scots and Welsh people who sneer at Irish people, and also those who are too intelligent to sneer at any group of people or associate any supposed national qualities to any group including their own.

By the way, Northern Irish people no longer have the right to claim an Irish passport, as far as I know, since the claim to the Six Counties was removed by referendum from the Irish Constitution on the request of Northern unionists as a precondition to negotiations for the Good Friday Agreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:11 PM

JTT - I was looking at Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs webpage and those in the North are still allowed to get an Irish passport it appears to me. You may want to check it and tell me if I'm reading it incorrectly.
Have you read over the entire "silly thread" to see how this discussion has progressed? Let me point you to Tirghra's post above that summarizes what arguments on this page have been over...maybe it won't be as silly then if you see how there were two different definitions of "British" being used. And, after reading it, maybe you'll see why some believe there is an average "Brit". Hope this clears up the confusion.

Mick - Nice to know someone else knows the name! Thanks for caring ;)

Hope the weekend is turning out nicely for everyone!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:41 AM

Perhaps we need to be sure of what we are calling Great Britian and The British Isles here.

The British Isles: Is a geographical term for the archipeligo that lies off the west coast of northern Europe

Great Britain: The largest of the the islands made up of the countries Wales, England and Scotland (and Cornwall). However, the first parliment following the Act of Union in 1707 was know as the Parliment of Great Britian. Here we see the beginnings of the Britian/England substitution that still occurs today.

The United Kingdom: Was a result of the act of Union with Ireland, when William Pitt decided to impose direct rule in 1801. And we all know what happened next. This is when the Union Flag became the 'national flag'.

Interestingly, the establishment of the plantations in Ireland was at the behest of a Scottish King, James I, not an English one. Not that it makes a jot of difference now.

One of the truths here is not that England as such has had an unfairly large influence on the history of the Isles, but south-east England specifically has, and this is still very much the case to this day. The London-centric nature of the United Kingdom is one of the most scandalous issues facing us today, and the influence of Westminster is hopefully on the wane, at least in Scotalnd and Wales, who really should be independent. England itself needs to devolve power to the regions so they can govern themselves as they see fit - A break from a thousand years of Norman feudalism and the return to more the regional forms of goverment of the thousand of years before they arrived.

Now, identity . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

Using the same logic as our Irish interragators on this thread:

I am not anti-Irish.

But I am anti-'Irish'. Clear? Nope? Snap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 08:02 PM

You seem more of an "Aunty Fanny" Oooh Aah2.
Lets get a life people, ok?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

Ooh-Aah2, I would direct you to Tirghra's post (as I have many others! Thanks, Tirghra!) where he defined the different definitions we on this thread have of "British". And then, I would love to hear what the different definitions of Irish are that you've come across. Thanks!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

Terry Wogan, Ian Paisley, Daniel O'Donnel......love the Irish!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:30 AM

The British Isles: Is a geographical term for the archipeligo that lies off the west coast of northern Europe

Interesting, how different geographical terms like 'North' can be understood. If I was asked how the archipelago off the coast of Northern Europe was called I'd respond with 'Lofoten'.

There's too much of 'you may not use that word this way' in this thread for my taste. People do use the same words with different meanings. It is better to get used to that and to try to understand how other people use words instead of telling them how they should (not) use them.

Even the geographical term 'British Isles' is ambiguous. Geographers tend to exclude the Channel Island and include the Faroes, laypersons don't.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Keith A o hertford
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:27 AM

Irish jokes apart (and some are now being retold as blonde jokes) I have not come across any genuine anti Irish sentiment in England. For myself I have visited Ireland many times and there or here I have yet to meet an Irish person i did not like (perhaps I have been lucky).
Curator referred to one of his "Active Service Units" operating while he was here. These were actually vicious indisciminate killers.
Only in a country of saints would there be no backlash against the country they claimed to be acting for. In the same way that there was some anti Japanese feeling in the USA after Pearl Harbour.

They detonated, without any warning, large bombs of dynamite packed with coach bolts in crowded pubs, killing, maiming and mutilating indiscriminately.
They bombed shopping streets, firebombed shops, planted bombs in postboxes on busy streets, and fired submachine guns into a crowded resaurant.
When cornered by armed police they took a poor terrified middle aged couple hostage in their home for days, but promptly surrendered when they thought the SAS were coming. They were only brave when attacking helpless, undefended and unarmed victims.

Shamefully they were welcomed home as heroes by Gerry Adams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:03 AM

"Well then he's Irish, I would imagine. Usually follows the country you're born in, Nationality does...."

To quote Arthur Wellesly, Duke of Wellington... (or paraphrase as I don't have the correct quote to hand):

"Just because one is born in a stable, it doesn't make one a horse".

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:20 AM

Anti-Swedish after last night. Well, one Swede in particular.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:23 AM

" . . . try to understand how other people use words instead of telling them how they should (not) use them."

Sorry if it appears I am telling other people how to use words, it is not my intention to appear pedantic or didactic. I just find it interesting, that's all.

The point of my post (which I did not make explicit, I admit) is the terms Great Britian/British/United Kingdom are often confused, and this confusion is reflected in the perception of the British abroad and by the population themselves. I suppose it is as much about the changing use of language as anything.

To get back to the subject, I am also interested in the question of identity and closeless to the land. In this day and age, many people can live their lives without getting close o the land in which they live. From gardening to hillwalking, these activites bring us closer to the actual land we live on, which we choose to label 'England', 'Wlaes' or whatever.

To what extent does our relationship with the land define our identities?

Come to think of it, are we discussing our cultural identities or our personal identited?

stigWeard


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:23 AM

Keith A o hertford I watched that programme you are referring to on channel 4 television last Thursday, The Year London was Bombed.And Gerry Adams at the end of it welcoming them home or out of prison. Reminded me of the General Mike Jackson get his medal of the queen for his actions in Derry in 1972,Bloody Sunday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

The point of my post Guest, was that given such murderous terrorist atrocities were perpetrated, some hostility was inevitable.
Which bits did you disagree with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:11 AM

The question should have been are you anti irish or just anti ira?

Would have given a totally different response. Curator and the pretenders seem to have trouble differentiating between the two, and therefore see any criticism of the ira as a criticism of the irish.

Of course most decent irish folk didnt blow up kids and neither did they agree with it. And most decent non irish people are not anti irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

I'm as patriotic as the next man, but it was great seeing Beckham and his gang of synchronised haircuts getting screwed last night.

Nice one Ireland!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:45 PM

Ireland lost 1-0 to France, WLD.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:56 PM

Isn't the discussion much less fun without the Adams family contributing?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:29 PM

GUEST, Keith A -

"The point of my post Guest, was that given such murderous terrorist atrocities were perpetrated, some hostility was inevitable"

Here's another point. Atrocities were not committed only by groups working in England, and yet that's all you posted about in order to substantiate your later statement that hostility was inevitable. How much are you aware of the atrocities committed by the British government and supported by the British government on the population of Ireland? I ask only because maybe you aren't honestly aware of everything that's taken place here in the name of your government and that is why you post about why the English have a right to be hostile. If your argument holds true, then the Irish have a right to be downright livid. But yet, I stand behind the GFA as do my friends and family. One can accept hatred and let it consume him, or he can remember all that has befallen his family, his community, his country and decide that a positive change MUST be made in order to assure freedom for those that follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:13 PM

Tirghra
The thread is about anti Irishism in England.
Do you want to start discussing the obverse?
I said that in my experience there is little or no antiIrishism, but having people blow up our pubs, shops, streets, and restaurants in the name of the people of Ireland had to cause some bad feeling here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:23 PM

Keith A of Hertford, you write as though Anti-Irishness was a recently adopted attitude by many British people. The IRA atrocities to which you refer are all of the last 30 years or so, Anti Irish jibes and jokes have been a nasty feature of Media propaganda in your country for much, much longer than that. Long before Irish people dared to raise our heads against the British rulers we were the butt of "put downs" and slurs in order to establish an excuse for our "being civilised" by others.
We are not merely discussing present day attitudes here , are we? We know now that racism is rife in Britain and , shamefully, is being fermented and fostered in Ireland too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:31 PM

yeah yeah yeah...and the scots are mean and the welsh moan all the time. All these countries are equally 'guilty' of making jibes at their neighbours expense, ever spent an evening in a comedy club in Dublin? You'll hear plenty of banter about the english.

Does hating the murderous thugs who called themselves the IRA make me anti Irish? No, just anti murderer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

Those would be brave words if you weren't hiding without a name, GUEST. As it stands, it's very easy to stir up trouble when you don't have to face the reprecussions. Please, I'd love to invite you to join us and choose a name, become part of the group so we can hold you accountable for your posts just as equally as you can hold us. Cheers!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 03:35 AM

Britain has welcomed over a million foreigners into our country just in the last trn years.
They flock to this small island because it is the most tolerant and welcoming country in the world.
As I said, in my experience there is no genuine anti Irishism here in spite of the IRA's killing spree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM

Isn't the discussion much less fun without the Adams family contributing?
Who's the Adams family Wolfgang ?
Is it the Wehrmach Tsgefolge or the Reichswehr ? They are the only monsters we English know !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM

Epona get over yourself. As someone who sympathises with the murdering thugs who's regulation garb was balaclavas and dark glasses, you should be the last person to have a problem with anonymity.

As for them being bave words? I don't consider my opinion to be brave, just truthful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

At least we agree that your opinion isn't brave, GUEST. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM

I have always hated this song (see below). It sneers, trivialises, ridicules, it's vicious - and I think answers the question "are we anti- Irish". it's still about.
....................................................................
"Plastic Paddy"
-Eric Bogle

Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah
Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah
Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah
Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah
Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah

He's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs
in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone
There's plastic shamrocks everywhere, there's Guinness and green beer
And a sign in gaelic above the bar which says "God Bless All Here"

His guitar sounds like a wardrobe, and it's out of tune at that
His singin' voice it ranges from a sharp to a flat
He's just desecrated "The Holy Ground", ripped apart "Black Velvet Band"
Sang some nights drunk and now he's sunk "The Irish Rover" with all hands

'Cause he's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs
in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone
The publican's a proddy Scot by the name of McIntyre
Who does not allow collections for the men behind the wire

He's done awful things to "Molly Malone" and "The Farrows of Tralee"
He's murdered "Carach Fergus" and poor old "Mother Machree"
He's just thrashed his way through "Galway Bay" and "The Wild Irish Rose"
and if he starts singing "Danny Boy", I'm gonna punch him in the nose!

He's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs
in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone
There's Aer Lingus posters everywhere showing pretty Irish scenes
all peaceful and idyllic, and very bloody green!

"When Irish Eyes are Smiling" and "The Mountains of Mourne"
In a central Celtic chiché, the man has left no stone unturned
'Til he embarks upon the harp that once through terraced halls
Accompanying himself on the Bodhrán, which takes a lot of courage

'Cause he's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs
in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone
Now he's just sung in his mother tongue, "The Ancient Irish Curse"
and cleared the pub completely by the forty-second verse!

'Cause he's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs
He's started singin' "Danny Boy", so it's time that I was gone
and just one thought comes to my mind, as I stagger through the door
Where are you when we need you, Christy Moore?
Where are you when we need you, Christy Moore?

*************


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:06 AM

The problem with folks like GUEST and KeithA is that they take a small snapshot to justify their positions. You won't get an argument out of me about the killing of uninvolved citizenry. What you will get is me questioning what spawned that tactic. When one widens the perspective on the "murderous thugs" we find they are spawned by a British policy that robbed them of their rights, systematically deprived them of jobs, gerrymandered their voting districts so they couldn't even access the political system, terrorised their children, used "shoot to kill" orders, fired on and killed innocents who were using non violent tactics to cause change, etc, etc. Even today, while the "murderous thugs" try to go the way of peace, their children are harassed on the way to school, have balloons full of urine thrown at them, and on and on. Don't take any moral high ground with regard to deplorable action on behalf of your society, Keith. You just look foolish. Instead of trying to make sense of, or render judgements on, this ugly past, why not embrace what it takes to move ahead. The "murderous thugs" have. Why not castigate these loyalist unionist thugs who murder, maim, and do everything they can to destroy the prospect of peace.

In the end result, it won't be the the IRA who brings peace. It will be the folks in the North from the Unionist side, and folks in Great Britain, who tell these "loyalist thugs" that enough is enough. I only hope they hurry. I don't know how much more can be tolerated before the fire ignites.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:25 AM

Mick, I thought that Irish terrorism in England relevant to the question of what little anti Irishism there might be here.
The cause of that violence did not seem relevant to this thread.

Since you mention it though, I do not think that indiscriminate killing can be justified. If that is moral high ground, then I stand on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:26 AM

Why are some people labouring under the false asumption that anyone who dares criticise the IRA is in full support of every other act of violence from 'the other side.'

Despising the IRA tactics doesn't make someone a loyalist.It makes someone a humanitarian.

The IRA made life difficult for evry Irish person who travelled or worked in any of the countries that they killed innocent people. The bad feeling against the Irish was directed at them , not the spotty hooded yobs who threw petrol bombs and ran home to tea with mam.

Epona, to imply someones opinion is 'brave', infers they have something to fear. I haven't. My opinions don't scare me because they are not based on justifying killing kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

The fact is that you both are quick to point out the IRA actions, and conspicously avoid the actions of the SAS, the Northern Irish police force (whatever they call themselves now), and the loyalist thugs. You go immediately to the IRA. It wasn't me who introduced this into the conversation. My take on the various English and British peoples is that they are not anti Irish. I have met a fair number, and I find them friendly, and welcoming. I just point out the obvious inequity in your statements.

I invite you to castigate all those that are trying to short circuit the peace process. I invite you to start a public campaign in Great Britain to support the peace process and publicly renounce those that try to end it. Then maybe you will be seen in the light that you wish to be seen in.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM

The thread is about anti irish feeling in UK. Have you lived in either?

Had the loyalist thugs blown up kids on the mainland then they would be responsible for some of the anti irish feeling that was heightened during the troubles.They didn't. That doesnt make them right or wrong. It is just a fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:47 AM

When some of you mention Northern Ireland you always throw in the line about murdering children on the streets of Northern Ireland. Can you not leave the British Army out of this debate. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

I was referring to the murders of children on the mainland (as you well know), as that goes someway to explaining the anti irish feeling on the mainland. Which was the premise of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:54 AM

Fair enough, GUEST. I haven't lived in either. I will watching to see you make any comments about the US or any other country and quiz you as to what gives you the right to comment. The logic of your arguement is faulty.

Leave the British Army out of the discussion? Elements within that organization have done as much as any other to foment the opinions on anti Irish issues.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM

May I point out that Eric Bogle is a Scot-turned-Aussie and hence no longer British? Plus that his song is not anti-Irish, but anti shite music, which is accurately and wittily destroyed, as anyone who has groaned at the would be street-fightin' men who announces the 80th miserable version of the Fields of Athenry you've heard in the folk club in the last year.

As I said, I'm not anti-Irish, but rather anti-'Irish'. Bogle's song sums up the latter pretty well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:05 AM

The missing bit from my last post was 'can testify', of course.

It's not just Eric Bogle either - that partiotic wannabe Irishman Spike Milligan wrote feelingly and accurately of 'that high nasal Irish tenor, known and hated the world over.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

And be very VERY grateful that I haven't even mentioned Riverdance or Enya yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

If you have nothing to fear, GUEST, again I invite you to join the Mudcat family as a member. As you see, sometimes we agree and sometimes we argue, but we always know who we are addressing. I place my name on my posts because I have nothing to hide and I have nothing to fear. I enjoy discussion with the family here. And since you are firm in your belief that you have nothing to fear, I'm sure you'll agree that placing your name on your posts instead of floating through the threads as a nameless GUEST would make the mudcattters consider your points more valid. We are all accountable for our posts when we post under our names. Look forward to having you as a member, GUEST.

Keith, as the thread continues to stretch out, we've found ourselves addressing many issues and not just sticking with the immediate thread topic. I don't know if you've been following the thread or not, but sorry if we've caught you off guard. I can understand now why you didn't understand why we were asking about the causes of the IRA's campaign in England. I must say, though, that I am interested in hearing more about your experiences with events in England during the campaign. I've seen the news reels and newspaper articles on the events, and I'm not interested in the media's look at the situation during that time. I really like to hear the personal stories of people that lived through it and were effected by it. If you have any of those stories, love to have you share them with us so we can get a better feeling for your point of view. Thanks!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:12 AM

Fair enough, Ooh-Aah2 :). Point taken about Enya! Haha.

Mick - I like you more and more.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM

Thanks for the invitation epona. So, what are your experieneces of the anti irishism in the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:55 AM

The logic of your arguement is faulty.

Mick I wasn't presenting an argument. I asked you because I was curious as to how much experience went into your opinion.

We are all free to hold opinions on any number of topics, but those who have lived the situation can temper theirs with insight that is missing from those who have not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM

GUEST,
"Those who have lived the situation can temper theirs with insight that is missing from those who have not."

You are absolutely correct. And these are the discussions I like to have! Just as I wrote to Keith, I would be really interested in the experiences you've had. Personal experience speak more than words in a paper, so it would be great if you would share them. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:32 PM

Epona, yes I am following the thread.
I was not taken by surprise, but to discuss the roots of Irish terrorism would really require a new thread, and it has come up before a couple of times!
We can't really hijack the thread to exchange our stories either. How about a PM?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM

PM is fine. But I think that many people following the thread would be interested to read about your experiences and the experiences of others in order to understand why our viewpoints are different. That is why many of us are here, to talk and to learn from each other. As far as a new thread to discuss the roots of Irish military action - that would indeed be an interesting one to be sure because there are very definite opinions about it! Haha...Dave the gnome won't mind, though, if we take this thread in that direction, would you Dave? He's busy with some Americans at the moment, but when he checks in with us, let's see if we can get his nod of approval :)


E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:18 PM

No experiences of anti irishism to share then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:30 PM

I'm sorry...I skipped over that post to the one after it! I don't consider the North of Ireland to be part of the UK, so as far as experiencing any anti-Irishisms in the UK, I wouldn't have that experience. Though, I do have two cousins that live in England (they're English-Americans) and because everyone considers them to be English, they hear the same thing we've been discussing here - the jokes, snide remarks and such about the damned Irish. When I spoke to them about Mudcat and this thread, they said, at least in England, if you asked someone if they were anti-Irish, they would respond with, "Absolutely not..." But the same people would the ones to say, "Did you hear that joke about the goat and the Paddy?" Their point to me was that we would be hard pressed to find people willingly to admit to anti-Irish feelings, but everyone has biases (whether to the Irish or to other people) even if they don't admit to it. Trying to get them on the 'cat to share, but they're not computer people, GUEST! I'll keep working on them, though.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

They will also have heard the same number of jokes about scots, welsh ad nauseum. It is some people's idea of humour. Not mine, but each to their own. And the saddest thing is the most derogatory jokes do not involve the irish, believe me.

As I have previously said go to a comedy club in Dublin one night. As for finding it hard to get english people to admit their anti irishness, can't say I have ever noticed that. Those who are don't hide it, they are just in a minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM

"Those who are don't hide it, they are just in a minority."

That was the point the girls were making, I think. The "British" that are vocal about being anti-Irish are the minority...and that everyone has their biases (against scots, welsh, british, etc) but nobody would classify themselves as anti anyone. I think that holds true pretty much the world over.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: KIMCHEE
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM

Guest: You said, "Those who lived the situation can temper theirs with insight that is missing from those who have not." A lot of people have made choices, decisions, options to make, break, agree or disagree or even argue but until YOU have walked in another persons shoes how do you presume to know the size of their shoes. Why are you riding your high horse and whipping it unmercyfully - you can hate people for their beliefs, but they can never feel your hatred only you can feel it. Wake up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM

Kimchee - Umm...am I getting this right? You're saying every opinion is valid because every experience brings with it a unique perception? If that is not what you are getting at, maybe you could explain further.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: KIMCHEE
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:00 PM

Epona. You got it, you win the prize, go ahead of the class. At least you have the gumption and fortitude to say and believe what you have stated. Thank You!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:06 PM

Okay, Kimchee. I'm not quite sure what to say to that. You're welcome, I guess. :) Haha.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM

And yet another contribution from someone who no doubt has never lived in the UK throughout the troubles. The hatred you percieve doesn't exist. And nearly 300 posts telling you that have still not convinced you. Why not hop on a ferry and come and see for yourselves?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: KIMCHEE
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

Guest, in your reply, "contribution from someone who no doubt has never lived in the UK." My good person, I have lived in 5 different countries of the world including Afghanistan, I have been in Ireland, Scotland, England and I think the world of all people I have been associated and dealt with in my lifetime, I do not and will not hold grudges or hatred toward anyone. - again I say, WAKE UP!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 03:14 PM

So I take it you never lived in the UK throughout the troubles.

The debate originally concerned if and why their was/is anti irish feeling in the UK. Despite all the posts from people living in the UK to the contrary, it isn't good enough? Despite the many posts accepting that the anti irish feeling (held by a minority) stemmed from seeing our kids blown up, it isn't good enough.

Those who are unhappy with the answers given should ask themselves why? If some want to percieve racism where it doesn't exist, they are trying to validate their own agenda.

Meanwhile the Irish and English will continue to live very happily together over here. There will be racism directed at every nationality in our society by someone. It isn't exclusively set aside for the Irish in any country. Some of you seem to wish it were.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM

Just back from a grand tour of Northern England - Including the coast to coast Route 66:-) Didn't see any any-anyone even though we were Lancs in Yorks and Yanks in the Lakes!

I think it has been long accepted that the normal inhabitants of these sceptred isles are not anti-Irish. What I was hoping to go on to was what was 'Britishness' and should the term Britain now be lost? What I find is some people behaving badly on MY thread;-)

Now, now childer. Behave or I shall have to do something that you may not notice but sure as hell won't like...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM

Dave, you crack me up! Good to have you post again...:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:23 PM

Let's get one thing straight, Keith A...

We had a legitimate Armed Struggle against your Establishment that gained in popular support from 1969 onwards.

What's this 'Irish Terrorism' nonesense?

To gain a certain perspective of who the 'bad guy' actually is in any given situation, you have to be open to the grieviences of the parties involved.

One can disapprove of one's own Governments' actions, without actually feeling any sympathy for the cause of the aggrieved.

Violence then becomes a resort where only our leaders are allowed to visit.
Nowadays it doesn't even have to be the last one.

But if you are on the receiving end of State Sponsored Terrorism, your definition of 'murdering thugs' doesn't automatically skip a step

The British Army are murdering thugs; always have been, always will be, (unless things change... which I doubt...)
Dresden, Belfast, Derry, Craigavon...

You name it, they've been murdering thugs there.

That was the reason to take the war to the British

Those that support the actions of 'their boys' (... and let's not forget that they shoot the women first...) are 'anti' whatever it is their 'boys & girls' are fighting; Sunni insurgency, Shia extremists, IRA terrorists.

You say you are against the IRA and not the Irish
But that's exactly like saying that you like us... as long as we don't complain about our situation.

There could be a lot more to my original contention that the average Brit is anti-Irish Dave.

Interesting how the mice play, though, isn't it


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:33 AM

Let's get one thing straight.
Throwing a bomb into a crowded pub without warning is terrorism.
I don't stop liking Irish people when they complain about their situation. Their grievances are legitimate and genuine.
I do stop liking them when they plant bombs or shoot people.
Make no mistake, your "Armed Struggle" set back the noble cause of a United Ireland by at least 20 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM

Re the British Army, if Dresden makes them murdering thugs, the US army will have to be included in your definition.
The British Army, contrary to your remarks, is respected world wide for its professionalism and restraint, though like any group it has a proportion evildoers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:24 AM

An estimated 350,000 Irish volunteers (north and south) joined the British army in both world wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

I doubt they are respected throughout the world Sir. They have a record second to none for their murder of the innocent over the centuries.Always depended on Americans to do their fighting as I recall only too well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

That's true...Americans do a lot of fighting for the British ;)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

"Make no mistake, your "Armed Struggle" set back the noble cause of a United Ireland by at least 20 years."

Stuff and nonesense, Keith.
You would still be singing 'We Shall Overcome' on our behalf. in your folk clubs of an evening.
And we'd still be getting shot and burned out of our homes

Your Government never listened to us!!!
Can you either not read, or not remember?

That's why the IRA started the Campaign in England; giving you fair enough warnings to clear places that weren't totally military targets.

A United Ireland is a lot closer than you think, Keith.
The GFA was signed on the back of the IRA ceasefire.

Had there been no Armed Struggle, there would have been no ceasefire, and there would have been no GFA

Whereabouts in that timeline is there proof of the effectiveness of non-violent protest?

Anti-Irishness is so ingrained in some of your psyches that you don't even realise it.

If you believe we did not have a legitimate cause because of what your country did to us in your name, well then you do perpetuate the myth that your precious 'Britishness' draws it's lifeblood from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:32 PM

That's why the IRA started the Campaign in England; giving you fair enough warnings to clear places that weren't totally military targets.

Blatant lie number one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

suffer little children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:40 PM

Yeah, well we love our children too, remember...

Glad your occupation force is getting out.
The whole point, really.

Warrington got a warning.
How your Government explains that to you has nothing whatsoever got to do with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

The PIRA, with a steady supply of arms and money from sympathisers in the Republic of Ireland, USA and elsewhere, continued to target security forces and economic targets, increasing its campaign on mainland Britain. The bombing campaign of 1974 included attacks on pubs in Birmingham, Guildford and Woolwich in which died alongside off-duty soldiers. In August 1979 the PIRA killed 18 soldiers from the Parachute Regiment and the Queen's Own Highlanders in a ruthless ambush at Warrenpoint. The same month also witnessed the murder of Lord Louis Mountbatten and three others at Mullaghmore in the Republic of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

And, that's true. That is the whole point...No more occupation of the North of Ireland and it's becoming a reality.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:01 PM

And again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM

600 dead civilians at the hands of the IRA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Tir Eoghain

No warning was given for any of the English pub bombings.
Off duty soldiers may have been present in some but the slaughter and maiming was indiscriminate
Those were clear acts of terror.
If you plant bombs in shopping streets, even if you give a warning the probability is that some unsuspecting ordinary people will die. There is just too much to go wrong and so tragically often it did. That is not military action.

I agree about the cease fire, but you could have been in this position 30 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

"but you could have been in this position 30 years ago."

Proof please, Keith.

300


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM

The IRA never engaged in acts of 'terror' as you call it.

They resisted British terror, and targeted the pillars of their Establishment.

Your Governments could not protect your citizens, however; hardly the fault of the IRA.

Your Governments gave logistical and physical support to the Loyalist paramilitaries, in their attempts to have the North of Ireland 'fenian-free'.

NO amount of Warrington links, or suspect entries from Wikopedia is ever going to change the fact that the British forced their way into our homes, and made freedom fighters out of our population, long before Guildford.

You have been murdering the Irish for centuries, Keith.

Because just as much as you support your scumbag army, you support the things they do in your name.

That is Anti-Irishness at its most grassroots, and you've chosen to include most of the English nation along with you, Keith.

Well done!

Want the proof, incidentally from your retrospective crystal ball


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM

Hmmmm, this thread has gone from an interesting and intelligent discussion on identity and how we perceie each others nationalities into the usual 'my thugs murdered fewer children than your thugs' crap.

Shame really. It was all going so well for a while back there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM

They resisted British terror, and targeted the pillars of their Establishment.

They targeted innocent civilians. As the links show to all who are in any doubt. You try and rewrite the IRA's bloody past time and time again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:16 PM

As I have said I am not anti-Irish but I am against people...anyone from anywhere, blowing people and places up. I was on a train coming into Leeds station when a bomb went off. It was one of the scariest times of my life. Luckily I was unhurt and we were all taken care of. It was reported that the IRA planted the bomb. But if you are going to say I am anti-Irish because of that then so be it...but tell it to my family too because they will laugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:36 PM

stigweard, with all respect, the title of the thread is what it's about.

We'll get to the 'identity' thing, don't worry.

Where we are at the minute however, is that now people are giving us their reasons for their anti-Irishness.
... at least in the present day.

This is all very good, stigweard..., because without admitting that there has been a problem, everybody will think everything's hunky dory, and go on to repeat their mistakes, now that people who actually do target innocent civilians (Al Quaeda, etc) are on the rise.

There is a huge identity question to be addressed within the peoples of England, Scotland, and Wales, and that's no lie.

Supporting a system that runs roughshod over your own citizen's rights (as the Nationalists in the North reputedly are), is just as bad as one pulling the trigger oneself.

Your Army is called 'British'
They are murdering scumbags.

Do you support a system that takes pride in that?

That I can safely say would never have happened


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:50 PM

... if the British Establishment hadn't instilled this sense of superiority within the more receptive of it's people


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM

The IRA kiled civilians on purpose, pretending it was an 'accident', to bully the British government.

It didn't work.

After revolting the population of the world, and finding their backers in the US falling away when 9/11 showed them the reality of terrosm, the IRA are laying down their arms in surrender.

In response the British are removing their troops, as most British people wanted all along - but not at the price of being dictated to by nail bombers.

It's taken a long time but the IRA have finally learned that terrorism doesn't work against democratically elected governments.

Now we just have to sort out those arsehole Protestants - (sigh).


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

Phew at last a voice of reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

The Downing Street Declaration predated 9/11 by 8 years, Mr. 'I'm anti-Irish in parentheses'.
(... Where do they get you guys from?...)

Just sort out the Loyalist and Unionists.

Yer average Protestant is OK


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:57 PM

"Your Army is called 'British'"

Whoa! Assumption being made there methinks! My army? I agree my taxes pay for it, but not by choice by a long shot. I live in a country where we vote for a government who never give us the whole picture, lie to us etc etc, but where the government is decided by our (imperfect) voting system. I live here, and I have to abide by that. But does that make it my Army? I think not. Please don't call me 'British' because I live here – I am quite sure everyone in Ulster does not like being called 'British' just because they live there too . . .

"Do you support a system that takes pride in that?"

Certainly not - in any form. I also don't agree with my money being used to fund the Iraq war, implementing the new licensing laws or by funding faith schools that teach creationism, and I don't consider the bodies in charge of those 'mine' either. I do, however, protest and write letters, engage in debate and generally try to voice my opinion'.

But if I did, would that make me anti-Irish? I am not sure it would.

"It's taken a long time but the IRA have finally learned that terrorism doesn't work against democratically elected governments."

. . . and taken the British government a long time to learn you need to address the grievances of terrorists/freedom fighters/jihadists by actually talking to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

Sorry stigweard, I wasn't addressing those last few lines to you, personally.

I was using a collective 'You', actually directed towards Keith A, and co

Sorry for any confusion

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:56 PM

Sorry but it did pay off for the Provo's, open your eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

And here I thought the PIRA called an end to the Irish Republican War in order to pursue the end of occupation through democratic means...though I see the version of the story you learned is a little different, Ooh-Aah2. Incidentally, good to see you back!
I suppose no matter how one chooses to phrase it, the facts are the British are leaving, the Loyalists are pissed off and are trying several tactics to lure the PIRA back into action. I agree Tir Eoghain, (and with your sentiments, Ooh-Aah2, though it's not the Protestants:) ) sort out the Loyalists and Unionists...I wonder if they consider themselves British. :) Considering the violence a group of them were directing at the British army and PSNI during the riots recently, I would say they're rethinking their link with the retreating Brits.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

The Orange Order has been ordered to disband many times in its' history.
Kings and Queens, to whom they swear undying loyalty, have signed decrees banning them.

So what exactly are they 'loyal' to?

Themselves, perhaps?

The fact that British people are content with having these traitors to the Crown around, doesn't seem to make many inroads on some people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:12 PM

There you go, you've gone all blackadder on us again and we were doing so well. If nothing else you've made me want a sausage sandwich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:17 PM

You should take it out of the bread, and go and kick it up High Street then, Guest.

Enjoy....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:19 PM

Heard there's a nice fire going on in the east of Belfast. Why don't you head the way and see what's going on?

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:21 PM

Jesus you kick sausages up the high street, now that's fighting talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:30 PM

No but your girlfriend says you do...
That little Rowan Atkinson gem escaped you then, did it?
Never mind, you would have had to have been there...

But the terminology is that of the Loyal Orders themselves, Guest.

More importantly, however, your Government has always cow-towed to them, and supported their sorry asses time after time.

It's called State Sponsored Terrorism, Guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:38 PM

Since when has the past been a blue print for the future?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:46 PM

Well, it's nice to see you admit that the past is such, Guest.

The future will be secure when the blueprints don't get used in the present.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM

I really can't be arsed to go through this thread again, but I can't recall anyone defending the attrocities commited by the British army/Govt. Just because (for example) Bloody Sunday was very, very wrong, doesn't mean blowing the bejaysus out of a 22yr old plasterer in an english pub, out for a pint after work was very, very right. Or do you disagree?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:01 PM

I can't recall any British person pointing out any atrocities, neither, Guest.

Remember that the British Government said on many occasions that Bloody Sunday (for example) was very, very, very right.

Are you willing to acknowledge that we had no voice, and therefore no choice?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:02 PM

Hello. I'm back again, from a local trip to Manchester this time. We got off the bus on Corporation Street, between Marks and Spencers and the Arndale. Where there is a pillar box next to where the last IRA bomb went off in Manchester. Devastated the area altogether but the pillar box survived in tact and now has a brass plaque detailing the event.

Bit like Anglo-Irish relations that there pillar box, realy. Try to blow it up and it survives everything you can throw at it. It was made by the British government but how many anti-government letters have passed that way? The Irish tried to blow it up but how many letters have been sent to the lads back home via it's slot? It's an anomoly. Bit like us I suppose.

What am I on about? Dunno I guess. But that silent pillar box makes a lot more sense than some of the hate on both sides of the fence in the this debate...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:04 PM

Ach, now, Dave...., don't be confusing hate with heat


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:06 PM

It was a cover up. You had no voice at that time. But no, there are always choices and I think the indiscriminate killing of civilians on the mainland by the IRA made people close their ears a lot longer than they would have had there been dialogue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:08 PM

No hate dave, just opinions, it's ok to hold them still isn't it? And incase you've missed it we are heady with the new found commonality of colmans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:15 PM

"You had no voice at that time."

How can there be dialogue then?

Especially considering there were closed ears popping out all over the place at you.

I would like you to be very dispassionate here now, and tell me what you would have done in the circumstances
(... no voice, closed ears...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

I would have done anything I could have to make them, anyone, listen.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM

Would even have thrown the tea into the harbor...wait, I think we did. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:23 PM

Shit I knew you'd ask that.

OK I think that history would be changed had the Republicans found a charismatic spokesperson, someone who didn't meet fire with fire, but instead rallied support in such numbers that your voices couldn't be ignored. Someone who made the world listen. Maybe there was no one to fit the bill, leaders like that are few and far between.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:25 PM

What about George Bush?! HAHA...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:44 PM

John Hume was as good as any, Guest.

And he had an incredible charismatic effect within our community.

Nobody listened to him in Westminster either til after Thatcher.

This is exactly what I'm saying, Guest.

You must know that the last refuge of the oppressed is the gun.

It's not a state of affairs me or my family ever wanted, Guest; but how long do you let a bunch of skinheads in uniform beat the living crap out of you week on week?

While closed ears abound...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:54 PM

I agree he was as good as any, but he wasn't good enough. That wasn't his failing. You needed someone whose voice reached further than Westminster. Someone who had the ability to put international pressure on westminster to listen.

That person may never have existed or maybe he did, but was drowned out by the understandable anger and call for reprisal. The only thing we know for sure is we'll never know now. Too much water and all that.

I suspose all we can hope is that everyone has learnt the need to listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:19 PM

Tip O'Neill, Ted Kennedy, Ballyporeen Ronnie.

God would have been nice, but Paisley's mob had already claimed he was on their side.

I'm truly sorry, Guest, but the Armed Struggle was the only way out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:47 PM

God this is a sad spectacle!!
The question was (in case anyone missed it) "are we anti-irish?"
I would say demonstrably NO! but I have detected a touch of animosity to certain sub-sections of Ireland (and England).
Telling Irish jokes does not make you anti-irish, it shows a sense of humour, telling predominently Irish jokes may be another matter!
If we insist on a history lesson, we have been just as "bad" to the Welsh and Scots but we seem to get on OK with them......usualy.And let's not forget the opoen air prisons of USA and Australia that we set up seem to be quite friendly now.
Right now I'm on a role....... where's me Guiness?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:50 PM

Oh, we'll need a new thread on how Americans feel about Britain. That would be a good one. Don't judge our feelings based on what the government figureheads say. It's the people on the ground that you should be concerned with. :) Guinness time? You can't be that bad then ;)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:51 PM

Coming late to the party here but... what can we expect from a nation brought up on Crackerjack Tír. Remember Leslie Crowther. His daughter married Phillip Lynott. Good old Leslie was against the marriage. His lovely daughter taking up with some degenerate Rock/and/or/roller. People thought it was because Phillip was a visable minority. Jaysus that would have caused a media storm. Apparently that wasn't the case. What other reason could Leslie have for not liking Phil?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:55 PM

Goodnight Tir.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:02 PM

Just thought I'd bring a little cross-border cooperation into things. It seeems like we might be headed in that direction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:16 PM

Goodnight, Guest.

You are right, clogger, the question was exactly that.

The sad spectacle, from where I sit is the wriggling that people get up to when asked to defend something which they have no real need to defend: the term 'British', being a case in point.

Wrapped up in all of that term lie some fairly mind-boggling connotations, which cut to the very heart of ones sense of justice, and identity.

We have isolated the term 'British' and asked people to look at it carefully.
Once we peel that layer off the onion, we may begin to reach an understanding whereby we all profit; intellectually and philosophically, and where there'll be no further 'whataboutery' on the threads of the Mudcat.

We're trying to get people to face their demons also.

But that can take a little longer, and is of no consequence to me, anyway, in the long run.

What you have witnessed today on this thread is another bit of the skin of that onion getting prized loose


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:22 PM

Clogger, take off the sad spectacles. I think they may be clogging your vision. Telling Irish jokes is OK by you. I'll leave that one for now. Dave are you taking notes. You haven't beeen to Wales or Scotland, have you Clogger? I'd have to say don't plan any trips to the USA or Australia any time soon, and your role...I think you pretty well personified the thread title, congrats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:26 PM

Sorry Den, missed your post....

Yes, it's the classic ".. but would you let your daughter marry one?" syndrome

Apropos cross-borders and the like, sure you would hardly know there was one anymore....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:31 AM

I'm Canadian and American. I have to admit that if I have any prejudice at all it is against the English. Not the people, just the Empire and their colonial attitude.

I also dislike their extreme preoccupation with social class. I also hate their food and their silly accents. Especially when they try to sound cultured.

Irish men I like. They know how to make the ladies smile.

I like Irish women too. They are sweet and tough at the same time.

I really like the beer and the music.

Mostly I love County Kerry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:20 AM

"I have to admit that if I have any prejudice at all it is against the English. Not the people..."

"I also hate their food and their silly accents."

Er, that would be the people then (the ones who eat the food and have silly accents).

At least your post forwarded the debate . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:21 AM

I wasn't refering to hate in this thread. There doesn't seem to be any and I'm realy pleased at the response and clever argument here:-) It's the hate the killers on both sides must feel to enable them to perform these acts. It's odd realy - if they would but talk like we do here I think the problems would have been resolved in days rather than years!

Anyway. Off to the Yorkshire Dales now. Callin a tea shop in Hawes. Maybe a pub in Swaledale. Visit the waterfall and gorge in Malham. It's a tough life...

Cheers

DtG

350 btw:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:26 AM

Damn you and your number stealing ways, stig;-)

You hate the English accents and food dianavan? Which accent is that? Cornwall? Lancashire? Newcastle? And which food? Roast beef and Yorkshire pud? Cumberland sausage? Balti Chickin? Tell you what. Stick to McDonalds and homogenised accents and I'll stick with what I like:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:49 AM

Sorry Dave! Had I known, I would have waited a few minutes . . . :)

Have a nice time in the dales. Keep away from that awful Yorkshire accent and make sure you don't partake of any of those unpalateable oatcakes, or those terrible Whitby smoked kippers or fine English ale that is produced there. Probably an idea to try some Becks or Coors (or luvverly tradtional Carling) with your Kentucky Fried Chicken.

stigWeard


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:57 AM

We get on OK with most Clogger, that is quite true.

The only ones we have a problem with are those who will randomly murder and maim people using methods like bombing pubs and those who see such action as part of a glorious armed struggle.

It's not. Those that do it are no different to the people who carried out 9/11 or the people who more recently bombed London. They too see thier actions as part of a glorious struggle against injustices in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:51 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:11 AM

"well where do I start?"
Firstly my good lady's family come from south wales, my mothers side from llanfairgwinwill,my daughter (and grand daughter) are in carlisle........ OK that one is still in england...just!          But I do get out to see them
Secondly the point I was trying to make was that if we look back we can pick a (justifiable) arguement with just about any race on the plannet! We dont do that, we move on and accept or we curl in on ourselves and stop evolving socialy. Lets just celebrate the good and laugh at the bad.
Here endeth the lecture on social engineering!
I think I will just celebrate some "Black Sheep" now, CHEERS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM

You're right, Stigweard, but lets face it; if the food and the accents of the English people are the only thing I hate about them, it aint much and certainly nothing to lose sleep over.

... I am, however, sick and tired of having English and American culture regarded as the yardstick of civilization.   

BTW, I don't eat McDonalds and never have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

Come and visit us to get a taste of the real England, Dianavan. As I am now an experienced tour guide I can show you round and I charge very reasonable rates;-)

Since when did a thread on anti-Irish-ness become an opportunity to knock the English though? I am off to Derbyshire in a few mins but would anyone care to see how many derogatory statements have been made about the English and how many have been made about the Irish? I guess it is a lot more. If I am right does that tell us anything..?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:03 AM

Does this call for a new thread?

Are We Anti-English?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:30 PM

I'm anti-British...Should we again define what British means? Haha!!!

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:46 AM

Ha Ha!

(but would you laugh if one of us made the obverse repost?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:09 AM

"I'm anti-British...Should we again define what British means?"

No, but let's define what anti-british means. What are you anti exactly Epona?

The place? The Scots, Welsh or English? The establishment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:31 AM

Calm down she's a kid who has never travelled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:31 AM

I want to make it clear that I consider the Catholics to have been in the right all along in this struggle. What I object to on this thread is those who seem to think that no progress could have been made without taking up arms and murdering civilians. What bullshit! Gandhi got the British out of an entire subcontinent by using non-violent direct action in, what, about 40 years. The Irish haven't got the British out of one little soggy country in 700 or more using violence. Now the Protestant morons are the ones using violence, surprise surprise, they are the ones dephicted negatively in the world media, not the IRA who are shown as former bad boys who have finally seen the light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM

Likewise the US Civil Rights movement.
Suppose Martin Luther King had asked Martin McGuinness for advice on what to do.
He would have been told to start killing police officers,young soldiers and Nat. Guardsmen, and explode bombs in Malls.
And 30 years later where would they be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:16 AM

Consider the racism faced by black people in Britain in the 1950s. We've a long, long way to go, but a person holding a public position today will immediately loose their job if they are caught making racist comments. Huge progress has been made with not an M-16 or nail-bomb in sight. I get the real feeling that for some macho Irish wannabe streetfitin' men, peaceful methods are just not glamerous enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:10 AM

British meaning (if I can use your definition Tirghra!) Used by "one who sticks to the remnants of British Imperialism".

Not anti-Scottish, Welsh, or English. I don't apply the term hate lightly, and I think we would all agree that there are good and bad people in every society, in every culture. But, if we pull the conversation back to the where we had been going before as far as defining how different people use and understand the term "British" then maybe you will understand my "inflammatory" statement. :)

And Keith, I would laugh if you made a statement along the same lines because I like you. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't laugh :).

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM

Thank you for that Empona.
Likewise.
Re the definition though, only being 55 years old, I have never met one of those.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:27 AM

So the American negro is equal now, Keith?

FACT IS the Armed Struggle worked; whatever about Ghandi, and all the rest... the Armed Struggle worked, and there is absolutely no evidence to prove that it otherwise!

"Since when did a thread on anti-Irish-ness become an opportunity to knock the English though"

Exactly, Dave. That is one thing we are not trying to do.
What we are trying to is to get folks to examine the importance of being 'British'

And why...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

post hoc ergo propter hoc

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

Sequences don't establish a probability of causality any more than correlations do, Wolfgang.

The history is written.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:14 AM

"What we are trying to is to get folks to examine the importance of being 'British'"

Hmmm, not sure about importance Tir . . .

But we have examined that to a large degree in this thread. Many people who live on the Island of Britain do not consider themselves British. I have a feeling this might be weighted somewhat by the type of forum we all frequent.

Folk musicians will have a strong feel of their national identies as they are directly engaged in their cultures (which means I should be Irish, as that is what I mainly play), whereas the average citizen may well consider themselves British. Look at how many were waving the accursed Union Flag at cricket the other day when England were playing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM

My spelling is crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM

"Look at how many were waving the accursed Union Flag at cricket the other day when England were playing"

Exactly my point, stigweard.

The forum is populated as you say, and in my opinion you give an accurate reading of its make-up.

We should, then be able to discuss the contention that Tiocfaidh and ourselves proclaim, with that open-ness that folk musicians and aficionados generally have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

Not a fact tir eoghain, just your opinion.
How can you say that no other sequence of events could possibly happen?
The FACT that in parallel situations, violence was shown not to be the answer is strong evidence that your opinion is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:52 AM

No other sequence of events did happen, Keith.

There is no conjecture here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

Sadly no Tir.
The self appointed men of violence decided for all that violence was the chosen solution, and they would not be stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

Holy God, Keith, where do you get your information from?

These 'self-appointed men' are the biggest Nationalist party in the north, long before de-commissioning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM

Ahh Keith nothing is ever quite that simple. Using the analogy that you made concerning the African American situation and maybe this becomes another thread on civil rights. America has not been occupied by a foriegn army since the war of independance. There have not been Army bases built in African American neighbourhoods to monitor people on a daily basis. African American people are/were not subjected to intimidation, house searches and internment without charge by armed forces. There has not to my knowledge been a shoot to kill policy targeting African Americans by police or army. African American civil rights marchers were not murdered in numbers by soldiers of a foriegn army. The murder of catholics by the British army was the catalyst for the armed struggle. You see Keith we tried Martin Luther King's approach and you know as well as any where that got us. With no one to protect us and the world seeming not to care the armed struggle was inevitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:09 PM

Just to add slightly to that, it's important to realize also that it wasn't just the British army that these men and women faced, but other forms of armed oppression: RUC and loyalist paramilitiaries. There are so many pieces to the puzzle that there is no world of black and white here, but a vast expanse of gray. Peaceful protests by the Republican and Catholic communities were and still are being launched. We know how many of them ended, sadly: with violence against the peaceful marchers. So, Den is correct about the attempts then and now of those seeking means outside of violence in order to impact the political process and improve the lives of those oppressed.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM

Tir,
The Provos had no mandate at all to take up arms. they took it on themselves.
Den,
The African American community in the Southern States were dominated by a wholly white and hostile police force and white National Guard and State Troopers were on call when needed. In almost every way their situation was worse than the Nationalists of NI.
There was no sense of a British Army of occupation before the "armed struggle" and the current withdrawal follows the cease fire that could have been called at long ago.
Epona,
The African Americans of the South were also on the receiving end of violence from elements in the white community. Their demonstrations also were often met with lethal violence from the KKK and other vigilante groups who were often in league with police and State Troopers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:00 PM

Keith it appears to me that you know very little about the plight of catholics in the north of Ireland. Just substitute wholly white and hostile police force for wholly protestant and hostile polce force, protestant B-Specials later Ulster Defence Regiment can be substituted for National Guard and State Troopers and then the British Army. How many African Americans were murdered by Security forces? How many Irish catholics were murdered by Security Forces? Not only security forces. How can we forget the Shankill Butchers who killed catholics for entertainment. Then we had the FRU a terrorist organization that comprised British soldiers and double agents who were involved in the murder of numerous innocent catholics and even members of the security forces. How on earth can you make a statement like, "In almost every way their situation was worse than the Nationalists of NI."

Every civil rights march in N. Ireland ended in violence. With the marchers beaten and clubbed by the police, had stones bottles and bricks thrown at them by loyalists and gassed by the British Army. I know because it happened to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Cloger
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM

This thread seems to be predominantly side taking in an arguement over who (if) anyone was/ is right.
The quesion is "are we anti - Irish"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:37 PM

Again from personal experience I would have to say there is a perception of underlying resentment towards the Irish. I have travelled many times from Canada to Belfast through Heathrow and/or Gatwick and in almost every instance I was held and questioned by CID officers. They were usually content in holding me till they were sure I'd missed my connecting flight to Belfast. An inconvenience I'm sure that they found amusing. They even once, separated me from my wife and child on our first visit as a family to the country. My wife was left wondering what was going on as I was lead away by two plain clothes guys. No explainations were given. They wouldn't even let me reasure my family. My wife and child were in tears and near hysterics when I finally returned to them at the Belfast terminal.

I remember well one night in a pub in Nottingham when this anti-Irish bigotry reared its ugly head. I was there visiting a friend. I had my guitar with me and as the evening wore on I was asked by some people we were sitting with (friends of my friend) if I would play an Irish tune. I said I would. I was part way through "The Cliffs of Doonen", when this guy who was sitting with his mates at another table said, "if you don't shut that Irish shit I'll come over there and stick that fucking guitar up your arse." I let him know that I was ready when he was. To my surprise the barman came over to our table and asked me to leave. So there you go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:53 PM

Gerry Fitt experienced those early demonstrations and was himself injured in one, so you can't just dismiss the idea as the ranting of an ill informed English school teacher.
Passionate Nationalist that he was he knew that the men of violence were setting back the cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:01 PM

from 1991 to 2001 494,850 emigrants from the republic of Ireland left for the mainland of Britain and were accepted. What more do you want of the Brits? No other country could match these figures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

Yes, it is indeed all too obvious (having joined this thread again after several days leave) that so many well intentioned English posters (perhaps many even "British") have no real understanding of the underlying reasons for the centuries old animosity toward them from so many Irish people.
Of course our educational systems approach the whole topic of British Rule versus Irish Nationalism from diametrically opposing points.
It does not score any points for people to talk of bombs on High Streets of Britain, placed by IRA men. What is the difference between those and the ones "placed" by British Forces in all their many wars ?, the fact that some were dropped from many thousands of feet higher up?
You can say all you like about the differing reasons for detonating such devices but , the end result is the same. The death of innocent non-combatants, sometimes in their thousands. Very few Irish people now want any continuation of a shooting/bombing campaign by the IRA in any of it's guises but it is not helpful to suggest that either side have gained any victory. Not yet anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:18 PM

It does not score any points for people to talk of bombs on High Streets of Britain, placed by IRA men.

It helps explain why there was some anti irish feeling on the mainland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:41 PM

"It helps explain why there was some anti irish feeling on the mainland."

How do you explain the anti-Irish feeling before that, GUEST?

Keith..., the mandate grew; the Provos were protecting the communities, remember, and with the unwillingness of the State to clamp down on joyriders, grandmother-rapists, heroin dealers, and the rest, they were quite happy to let the community deal with their own.

I see no anti-Englishness on this thread.

Anti-Irishness for sure, and it seems to be getting worse


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

Well, so we're moving along...At least Guest has admitted that there is indeed anti-Irish sentiment among the English population.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:52 PM

There are probably all sorts of sentiments within the English population just as there are probably different sentiments within the Irish population. The only difficulty I see there is when people try to do a lump all because of one view.

The biggest problem of all comes in (assuming one finds the killing of another person nice anyway - some of us don't even like war) in when you have the random attacks where nobody knows what anybody who gets killed or maimed stands for but are just defined as enemies for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even a kid who has not yet learned to form thier own opions of life could get get killed by actions that Tir Eighoin will defend with lines like

Your Governments could not protect your citizens, however; hardly the fault of the IRA."

Hardly the fault of those who carried out 9/11 that the US government could not protect its citizens either, is it? And let's face facts, some of those killed could have been against US government activities - the very ones they got blown up for..

Damage limitation, because you know the injustices served upon us, and that if the same thing was to have happened the English, your people would have reacted just the same.... like, for instance if DeValera hadn't had locked up all those Germans during WWII, and Germany did manage to invade, your 'Resistance Army' would have been an honourable concept, would it not?

But that's not the parallel. While I don't doubt there would be English element who would do this, the question to me would be more one of whether or not I would sanction a random pub bombing of civilian people in Germany - I mean they are all Germans aren't they - must have done something wrong...

The justifications people like Tir E... base on only work if you live your life by his standards. Those standards do not allow for the simple honest belief "huh - this is plain wrong whoever does it".


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:19 PM

"...would be more one of whether or not I would sanction a random pub bombing of civilian people in Germany"

You're joking, aren't you?
How many civilians were killed in Germany by the British during WWII?

I don't think Tír Eoghain's 'standards' are any different from the rest of us, here. I know that for my part if a Government is prepared to kill innocent civilians like the British one did in my Country, they had better make sure their own system of security is operational.

I don't think the people of England, Scotland, and Wales are fully aware of the dirty tricks of their own Governments down through the years; both in Ireland and in England.

This is all part and parcel of this 'Britishness' that we keep referring to. There is too much false Nationalism in England, and it stunts the development.

The reason we know all this is because we have experience of the rottenness of of it all.

We can tell you that 'British Nationalism' (a contradiction in terms, incidentally... as there is no such thing as a British nation) is an ethereality that you, (the English, Scots and Welsh) have been spoonfed over the years to give you a bigger sense of self-importance in the wider scheme of things.

We've seen it; we know it.
And the average non-thinker of you, doesn't even want to discuss the subject.

The longer this thread goes on, and the more some of you evade the issue, the better our point is proven.

There is confusion among the English, Scots & Welsh (not necessarily of their own making, mind you), as to who they are, and what this 'Nation' of theirs stands for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:41 PM

So they hate the english, the scottish, the welsh, anyone called mc cartney, orange men and everyone who deplored the IRA's cowardly tactics. Some folk thrive on hate don't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:54 PM

Dunno guest above.

Without bothering to answer the above Tir (C) there is much that has gone on that I can not agree with and would hope (and believe) woould have remained true to my own beliefs regardless of nation, provocation, etc.

But.

I don't think the people of England, Scotland, and Wales are fully aware of the dirty tricks of their own Governments down through the years; both in Ireland and in England.

I could not argue against that.

Probably the biggest crime (outside being misled) that we English have had is apathy in terms of not looking furter and not asking further. While I would hardly feel that crime sufficient enough to get blown to bits in a pub over, we perhaps have not listened strongly enough to the Irish case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 05:47 AM

I don't know if individual examples prove that there an overall anti-Irish feeling in England. It does indeed prove that some people are anti-Irish and, unfortunately, that does include some people in positions of responsibility but if we rely on these examples alone we can prove many things. That the Irish are anti-English - For examples see above. That the Americans are anti-English. Ditto. That the English are anti-American. Look through other threads. That the Mudcat is anti-Semetic. See Martin Gibson;-)

I have cited my own experience but that does not let me draw the conclusion that the English or American peoples are anti-Polish. At least I don't think so. What I thought we were examining and what I thought we had already concluded was that the people here on the mainland are generaly not anti-Irish. However the British establishment does show a significant bias against the Irish people and I will be the first to agree that is the case. I don't think there was ever any doubt of this fact.

Going right back to basics though remember that this thread was created to argue against a premise that 'the average Brit' was anti-Irish. I don't think that anyone here will agree that the average Joe Bloggs living on the mainland is anti-Irish. What I thought we had moved on to was what constitutes 'the average Brit'. Is it the ordinary person? I think not. Or is it the standard supporter of the establishment - Such as the customs officer or the squadie? Possibly so but with mitigation. Is it then the people who make the rules for the exise man and the private to follow? I think we are now heading in the right direction.

But is this the average Brit? I would not have thought so myself and would like to distance myself from these people. It is 'them' and us. Always has been . These people, whoever they are, are not only anti-Irish but anti working class. Anti semitic. Anti Black. They are the incidious workings of an establishment that has lumbered on for so long it will take decades to change. We need to weed them out of positions of power and replace them with ordinary people like you and I who have compassion and can see that injustice is not the right way. Trouble is, when we get in power, will we become like them?

If I am right in my conclusions can we get the thread back on track please?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
Who's visitors go home tomorrow:-( and is spending a relaxing day at home:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM

"And the average non-thinker of you, doesn't even want to discuss the subject."

Perhaps we have more in common than you realise Tir C, playing to the stereotype is in part what this thread is all about, and your post is more than a little patronising.

There is a deep and dark disquiet in the soul of the English people. They see the strength of the cultural identities of the other nations of the Isles and perhaps feel a tad envious along, with a palpable feeling of guilt for event of the past for which they feel responsible as a society. The English flag has been hijacked by football hooligans, right-wing louts and chav culture, all of which are negative expressions of national identity. The lack of understanding of the history of the Isles in England, and the role that various monarchs, the commonwealth and Empire have played is evidence of this guilt manifesting itself within the English education system, and of course it goes much deeper than that.

The English are losing their cultural identities in ways the Irish, Welsh and Scots are not. They are unsure of whether they are 'British' or 'English' and their notion of English culture is vague at best. This loss, as anyone who has lost or had their culture suppressed (the Irish know this) has a profound effect on how people perceive themselves as a society. We are slowly drowning a sludge of Americana and pseudo-britishness, letting multinational-owned media and Westminster dictate our cultural agenda whilst (as you say Tir C) keeping the people in ignorance and a sort of perpetual cultural limbo that the Welsh and Scots have thankfully been delivered from with devolution.

Looking around the towns and cities of England in 2005 it is painfully obvious the price is being paid for this lack of self-esteem. The nation is seemingly directionless and morally adrift. The famous binge-drinking culture, lack of respect for people and property as well as a ubiquitous denial of our own music, literature and dance in the mainstream media are all symptomatic of a people at a loss to define themselves as a nation. This has created a cultural ghetto of mediocrity and half-knowledge where the values of our traditional rural society are consigned to the dustbin of history.

You may think this is well deserved, in which case fill your boots and enjoy as I am sure things will get worse before they get better. In some respects, the healing has already begun beyond the borders as the NI peace process moves forward and devolution for Scotland and Wales begins to work. How long it will be before this filters through to the collective consciousness I have no idea - it is conceivable it never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:43 AM

397


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:20 AM

dum de dum de dum . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:28 AM

399 is the new 400.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Khatt
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

400...??..


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Oh bugger I missed it! Well done Khatt!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

I'm the average Brit
It was me
i caused all the trouble
sorry about that


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:09 AM

Oi Stigweird,
             On a slightly more serious note, I did read your last post and you are pretty much spot on! I am English, not British. The term 'Britain' means bugger all to me. The Scots and Welsh have their own parliaments, when do the English get theirs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 01:06 PM

Rock on, Ted! Lets loose this stupid 'Great Britain' tag once and for all. I'd be happy with a seperate Lancashire Lobby as well but that's just me;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Bingo!

I don't think Tír Chonaill was referring to you, stigweard (or indeed any of the people that want to explore this area); we have used the phrase 'non-thinker' and the like, referring to the ones here at Mudcat who don't want to think to any degree of depth on the subject. We are trying not to appear patronising, given the many ways this subject could be construed.

We have always been trying to discuss the term 'British' ('Brit), and hoping that you copped the differentiation between that and 'English'.

It is absurd to think of us as anti-English; no doubt there are many in Ireland who are. But as I once famously said to a Wexford man in a pub one night, that if anyone had the right to be anti-English, it is the ones who were left voiceless in 1921.... and we aren't.
Anti-British is a different matter altogether, and that emotion leans more towards the un-necessary coat-trailing and provocation the Establishment and their supporters (not confined to squaddies etc..)
In mitigation to Dave's mitigation, I would further contend that certain professions attract certain kinds of people, and not always for the sake of a deep sense of committment felt to serve the public.
Some do like the power such positions afford.

We have been on this train of thought all along, and have tried to avoid the sidesteps that the people who did not want to discuss the subject have put in our way.

Good man, Ted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

Some good points there Stigweird, a well thought out post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Tír Eoghain, I sent you an email on your work site. Did you ever get it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 03:27 PM

Should have been "..provocation of the Establishment and their supporters."

I also do not think that the present climate you describe, stigweard, as being prevalent in England is 'well deserved', neither. Absolutely not.
Certainly not in regard to it's citizens, anyway. In fact, I think the war mongerers should be the first ones (if not the only ones) on the front line. Those people tend to wear suits most days, and the vast majority don't have faces.
Even better get the future perfect UN to stipulate that anyone who wants to invade anyone else should play Chess instead (... no ABBA or Tim Rice jokes, now; ok?).
Something like that, anyway...

Far from being a 'Pro-IRA' thread, or indeed an 'Anti-English' one, this discussion, which goes all the way back to last May has been an exploration process of what the term British means to you.
And why.

I, for one am delighted that the importance of 'Britishness' is not widespread among those that have contributed positively to this thread.

'Britishness' means 'anti-everything' in my opinion; it is seen that way throughout the World. It is just one of those words that has never shaken off the connotations of an 'over-pride' in one's homeland.

I believe everybody should be proud of where they come from. Identity is that what roots us, and every person in the World deserves that dignity afforded them.

'British' ties everybody together to London, and strips even the English of their identity.

Good man(?) stigweard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 03:33 PM

I did, Den. Thanks.
I've been running around like mad this past few weeks, and I'm behind a little bit. Will write a veritable tome over the weekend. Sorry for not getting around to it yet.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM

"everybody should be proud of where they come from. Identity is that what roots us, and every person in the World deserves that dignity afforded them."

lots of us don't feel we came from anywhere. our parents moved around for work, and they had no great feeling about where they came from, or where they were at present. and for us - patriotism is a bit puzzling.

i used to think I was partly Irish, til I went to Ireland.

I always think artists like the Dubliners and the Yetties are lucky because they did come from somewhere. sort of Martin luther stuff - Here I stand!

I didn't like it when a GUEST(typical bloody GUEST!) in a recent thread expressed the thought that every English soldier who had been killed in Northern Ireland richly deserved it. But I don't like homicidal thoughts directed at anybody. Nothing to do with the justice or otherwise of the English cause.


That Hoyt Axton song - Never been to Spain - says it quite well. Or the Chritopher Isherwood book - Down there on a visit.

A character in the book says derisively, You're one of life's tourists - I bet you're always sending cards saying Down here on a visit.

And I think that's how a lot of us feel. we aren't interested in being a geordie, or a tyke, or whatever. we don't want to be defined by place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:12 AM

I'm always amused by people who claim that the English 'lack self identity', 'don't know who they are' etc etc. I have never felt the slightest concern or doubt that I am English, and that I know exactly what it means. The trouble is that it is so hard to articulate. These proud, certain Scots and Welsh now, compared with whom we're so uncertain.... take away the common factor that we spent many happy years kicking them, and what have you got?

The Irish owe a deep and abiding debt to the British. Without anti-British bitterness, seen in such delicious profusion on this thread, their culture would dissolve into kitch and cliche. Ancestral hatred gives being Irish a kind of grandeur that that it would not otherwise have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:29 AM

I never thought I would get a laugh on a cold Saturday morning, but thanks Ooh-Aah2. Christ I wouldn't shout about your delight in being English. Cheers mate, great gag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:20 AM

I'm quite pleased to be English as well, Divis. What's the problem with that?

DtG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:24 AM

You don't celebrate it in quite such a fashion, Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:35 AM

well personally I thought it was a mean shitty thing to say ooh ahh.

you shouldn't be so dismissive of, and insensitive to other people's feelings

You are quite aware that for some people here, it's a resal big deal being Irish, or having Irish ancestors.

How would you feel if someone trampled on some aspect of Englishness that you value. (I suppose some of them do with joyous abandon, but 2 wrongs don't make a right!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:38 AM

But the debate is about 'Britishness', wld.

Ooh-Aah2 is sidestepping the issue


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

Give the guy his little bit of fun. He is trying to stir it up. You never know whats going in a mans life, maybe there was no Ooh-Aah in the bedroom last night !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:42 AM

"Ancestral hatred gives being Irish a kind of grandeur that that it would not otherwise have"

He's married to an Irish girl, apparently

I wonder how she feels about that?

Or have you beaten any resistance out of her just as you would recommend others to do to us, O-A2?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:52 AM

Thanks GUEST she did read his posts last night then. No Ooh-Aah for a day or two !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:53 AM

Ooh-Aah2 doesn't even know whether to refer to himself as English or British....

Confused?

Not as much as Ooh-Aah2

... only a feckin' dimwit would call himself that


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:16 AM

Irish contributors,
we log on here because we are interested in music, and then like any gathering of friends we discuss the issues of the day.

The nature of the forum is that we are a mixture of all and every shade of opinion.
If you hate to read things you disagree with, you will hate it here.
If you hate to have your viewpoint questioned and challenged, then post them somewhere else, because that is what we do.

If you post a fragment of a story to support your case, I will probably ask for more details, not because I am a "voyeur" but because I am open to persuasion and I want to understand your point of view.
If the story is to painful to tell, say so and we will accept that, but in that case better not to post it on a global public forum at all.

All Irish people do not support the IRA. I have met them so I am sure you have.
Most of us have said that we support the cause but not the methods. Again it is not only british people who think that.

In my own posts I only ever ask questions and state my opinions. I never make personal attacks.
I expect to be told why my opinions are wrong, but why the abuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Noaxe to grind with above member.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

Help!
I am from Salford (North west England)
Does this mean that I am Brittish? or English?....both/eather?
If I am classified as English does this mean that I must affiliate with those southern jessies(South East England) or am I able to keep my (metaphorical) flat cap on and celebrate my oneness with the (ex) industrial north?
If I am Brittish must I walk arm in arm with our northtern friends and celebrate every diffeerent fesive occasion but my own.
NO! I am a mongrell and proud of it! I will celebrate (with as much good beer as is appropriate) any festival I choose and I will rebember that those who govern me do not care any more for me or mine than a cross every five years. I will view them with the respect they deserve! Just because we voted for them does not mean that we should be blamed for everything they do       8¬)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM

Ooh-Aah2 said,

"The Irish owe a deep and abiding debt to the British. Without anti-British bitterness, seen in such delicious profusion on this thread, their culture would dissolve into kitch and cliche. Ancestral hatred gives being Irish a kind of grandeur that that it would not otherwise have."


You are entitled to your opinion but it sounds more like jealousy than fact.

If anything, the British have a debt to the Irish for stealing their natural resources, attempting to subjegate their people and trying their best to destroy their culture.

Perhaps you would like to list the benefits that the Irish have derived from the British occupation of their homeland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:26 PM

Ye gads she knows about the diamonds!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dani
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

Have been following this discussion from the sidelines. So interesting!

I'm inspired to share the following:

"Heard about the Irish version of Alzheimer's?

Patients forget absolutely everything but the grudges."

From a partly Irish-American family, I sure can attest to THAT facet of the gem.

Dani


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM

the British have a debt to the Irish for stealing their natural resources

Not wishing to doubt you Dianavan but can you give us examples of what natural resources have been stolen from the Irish by anyone? Apart from their people of course. Of which you Americans have stolen more than your fair share;-)

Is this more of the knock the English that I wanted to know about?

Clogger - I'm from Salford - Irlams o'th' height to be exact! Where abouts are you from? Ever get to Swinton Folk Club? I'll be there tomorrow (Richard Graingers on btw) if you don't want to give the game away here:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

Hello ! Ah what about the English taking the lands of the Irish and giving it to the generals as a reward for their great work in battles in India and Africa. The Plantation of Ulster. Many stately houses in the North still remain in Planters hands today. So shocked you never hear of it. Time to do a little reading. Start with Captain Boycott.How would you feel your lands taken from you and then the new owner arrives and sets your rent for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:11 PM

Yes, it was the same here when William The Bastard came over from Normandy.
Norman descendants still squat on our finest lands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:49 PM

Like Dani, I've also been following this discussion from the sidelines.

I admit that I know nothing about whether the average English or British person is anti-Irish. Thanks for the discussion. I've found it interesting and enlightening.

If I [as an admitted outsider] might ask, does the "average English" or "average British" includes persons of Caribbean, or persons of continental African descent?

I also wonder if Black British people [excuse the reference if it is wrong] distinquish between one ethnic group of White people or another.

As an African American it has been my experience that for most of us[African Americans]with regard to ethnicity, a White person is a White person is a White person.

Though it is somewhat off topic, let me share that in the mid 1960s I attended a college in New Jersey {United States} and for the first time learned that quite a number of WASP {White Anglo Saxon Protestants} differentiated between Jewish and non-Jewish White people. My first roomate was a blue eyed blond haired German Jewish girl whose last name was Bauman. [I was one of only 3 other Black students. I now 'get' why they roomed me with another "minority" student}. I considered my roomate to be White. I certainly couldn't tell the difference between her and other [non-Jewish Caucasian]females. But I learned quickly from conversations with her, from converations with other [WASPs} students, and from direct observations, that some of the students and some of the faculty/staff definitely were prejudiced against Jewish people. Although I don't remember this as clearly, it is likely that the small Jewish population at that school who stuck together for social support also had prejudices against the WASPs.

But I will never forget that some of these non-Jewish girls would talk [bad] to me about the Jewish students. And I remember thinking to myself that though these WASPs students put on a front, and pretended to accept me and the few other Black students who attended that college, they really didn't really couldn't like me [since I was Black]if they didn't like my White roomate and other White Jewish students.

What a mess this world was then, and [I'm sorry to say] still is today....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

well yeh.....the rich lords of the manor nicked your lands. and they still own them.

they did that in England too, and most other places - and they still own the wealth of the country and most of the land.

in these days of multinational companies and conglomerates, who can say who actually owns their country though


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

DtG
yes mate, which bearded 20 stone folkie do you know....other than dave winn...... who wears cloggs.
Patricia says "hiya"too.
PS    Swinton folk club is at the White Lion, Mondays, 8.30/9.00 till late....... Enjoy


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 12:39 AM

"...the Irish question is a social question, the whole age-long fight of the Irish people against their oppressors resolves itself, in the last analysis into a fight for the mastery of the means of life, the sources of production, in Ireland. Who would own and control the land? The people or the invaders; and if the invaders, which set of them -- the most recent swarm of land-thieves, or the sons of the thieves of a former generation? These were the bottom questions of Irish politics, and all other questions were valued or deprecated in the proportion to which they contributed to serve the interests of some of the factions who had already taken their stand in this fight around property interests."

James Connally


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 04:31 AM

Cheers Clogger:-) My best to Pat as well.

Divis. Time for you to do a little reading as well. I refer you to a line in the very first post in this thread. I am talking of today btw. Not in Oliver Cromwells time. We were trying to determine whether todays 'average Brit' was anti-Irish. It is already an undisputed fact that yesterdays was. If you are suggesting that all lands taken from the common people by the landed gentry is given back I agree with that as well. Tell you what though. It ain't going to happen in Ireland, England, Scotland or any other land in the world:-( Sorry to disillusion you.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:27 AM

I think that's one of the many confusing aspects of the nature of the Irish struggle.

I recall at the height of the struggles in the 70's there was a decent interview in NME with some activist or other and they seemed to be Marxists.

I guess this wouldn't have played very well to their American fans

Coupled with this, the Catholic Church has always been very anti communist citing its rough treatment behing the Iron Curtain, which was very much in place at the time.

And although I have been pulled up before for this by Irish people, the importance of the the Catholic church in the community in Ireland is very striking to most people visiting Ireland. I don't believe we English are a secular nation, spiritual illiterates as most people seem to think. but the presence of the church seems qualitatively different in Ireland.

Eventual victory for SF would surely mean the whole country with Catholic as the state religion.

pleae regard these as musings. I have no wish to offend anybody, and I know that whilst trying to discuss this on previous occasions, I have upset people quite unwittingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:33 AM

If we are to accept that terrorist organizations are the domain of the extremist. And their supporters the same, then it is probably wise to realise that the extremists will never see anyone elses point of view or reassess their own. This thread illustrates this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 11:56 AM

What a fabulous reaction! Excellent. The nice thing about the 'Irish' Irish is that they always react so predictably; smack their bottoms and they always bounce nicely.

I'm amused to hear that the English are 'jealous' of the Irish. That's a little like Chelsea being 'jealous' of Danby United isn't it? We just like to tease you that's all.

As for the English/Britsh thing: I am English first and British second. Until I heard of the absurd and childish way so many Scots and Welsh still hate English people for things done by unelected governments hundreds of years ago, I always supported Wales and Scotland against any country but England at sports, for example. We've been through a lot, including two world wars, together, and to think that Scots or Welsh are not closer to us than, for example, Latvians or Croatians is absurd. That's what being British means to me.

The Irish will have to get over the fact that we do not choose to define ourselves with references to obscure goings on in their soggy country. Ireland is really not very interesting at all, excwept to the Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 03:07 PM

an intelligent person can take an interest in most things


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 03:53 PM

I could be wrong, Guest 08:33am but in this thread we seem to have convinced at least some of the people you may perceive as exteemists that the average Brit is not at all anti-Irish. It has also shown those of us who believed that all along that there was good reason for some people believing it was so. I agree that some will still continue to believe that and that is their perogative (sp?). We will also continue to see that there are some Brits that are anti-Irish and that the structure of 'Great Britain' by it's nature was to turn the English nation into a supremist state over our neighbours. I think it's very unfair to say that this thread illustrates your point when, to me at any rate, it seems to do the opposite. It has created a (mainly) civil and very productive dialogue between people with dis-similar points of view and brought those points of view closer together. If only all world politics could do the same:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM

I have been following this thread with interest and believe that you are right, Dave.

Like any divide and conquer strategy, the last thing the power elite want is for the working class of Britain to agree that they are all oppressed by those that own and control the means of production.

The fact is that the working class of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales have more similarities than differences. God help the upper classes if the middle and lower classes ever join forces. Better to keep them at each other's throats and emphasize religious differences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

Ooh-Aah2 Glad you see you must have get your end off. Well folks you asked were are we anti Irish ? Well your answer is here before you. Does this gentleman speak for you or is he typical of what we on the outside see at your football matches ?

And as to ..
What a fabulous reaction! Excellent. The nice thing about the 'Irish' Irish is that they always react so predictably; smack their bottoms and they always bounce nicely.

Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM

there appears to be some sort of competition going for the most tasteless unpleasant remark.

there are some brilliant chatrooms on yahoo for people whose tastes run in this direction and there you can mix it with 14 year old kids from round the world in a sort of gross out olympics.

I just think mudcat is a classier joint, and you should both be ashamed of yourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,John Prescott MP for Fractured Jaw
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:04 AM

Oahh and WLD, You have it in one, the English have always acted reasonably when confronted with yobs, of course we are lucky in dear old blighty we are free of such scum,although I had reason to put some manners on a poor imitation with a stiff left to the jaw.

Our football fans are renouned throughout Europe for fair play and exemplary behaviour, and our soldiers have also shown through the ages that they are models of disipline.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:44 AM

"Good man(?) stigweard. Thanks Tir - man will do fine :)

It seems as though this thread is beginning to decend into the sort of bilge you might expect from people whose ability to debate a point is limited by their capacity for cogent thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 05:22 AM

If someone starts an attack on me or my nation. Do expect a response. It becomes clearer by the post the attitude of the English vistors to this thread. At least there was a lighter note to be found is this line from a post, renouned throughout Europe ! I could not agree more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM

no we aren't free of such scum in dear old blighty - but at least there was always mudcat where decency in ones relationships with other human beings was accorded some value

and if murder and racial insults from the faceless ones (oohahh and divis jim) are the subject of merriment - expect a resonse from me


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 06:46 AM

I think I may as well give up on this thread and request it's closure. Anyone object to that? Apart from a couple of children who may feel their ball has been taken away that is;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 09:36 AM

Good thread Dave - I think we got somewhere, with some good debate before the squabbling brats moved in.

It would be nice to to know if Tír Eoghain or any of the other useful contibutors have any final thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

OK - Let's see if anyone would like to give sensible summaries.

Let it fall off the end if they don't or ask Joe to close it if we get nothing more than white noise;-)
Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 11:11 AM

MY conclusions are:-

1   A good look at myself never did me any harm, a good look at others however can be a bit scarey ;¬)

2   I dont think that I am any more anti- Irish,than anti any other ethnic group

3   I am Brittish and English and a Northerner..... and (I hope) a human being for all that

4   There are some in here who have dug their holes so deep they are unable to climb out

5   Violent conflict damages EVERYBODY involved

6   Swinton folk club is great

7   I MUST go there tonight (8.30)

8   Anyone not going there (without a note from your parent / guardian) is a........ (insert ireverant expletive here)

9   Mudcatting is annonimous, maybe we should have a badge or a funny handshake or something to let other 'catters know we are part of the group .................... ....or not?   8¬}


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Kieran O'Duinn
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:30 AM

Yay IRA yay IRA!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:57 AM

I take it you are a supporter then Kieran?;-)

I was once asked to support children in need. The woman with the collecting tin thought I had gone mad when I started chanting "Children in need (clap, clap, clap) Children in need (clap, clap clap)"...

Where are the two Tirs btw? I miss them. Or is it three Tirs, like a wedding cake?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM

I am British with some Welsh and Irish ancestors. I am not anti Irish, far from it, as I am very proud of my Catholic ancestors. There is nothing wrong with being Irish whether you are Catholic or Protestant. Both should be equal and have equal rights too to everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

We are not anti-Irish Alison as you will read above.
Only one member is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

Most people are pretty good people most of the time, but a few people are mostly crummy most of the time. Back at the turn of the 1970's, when Meathead accused Archie Bunker of prejudice, Archie answered truthfully, "I ain't prejudiced, I hate everybody!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

Guest, maybe youre right, but it may not be the one youre attempting to slander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:37 AM

Getting back to the original question. My experience in living in England for a couple of years, and in visiting England often since then, is that yes, plenty of English people are anti-Irish.

These people have a complex of prejudices that interfere with their sight when they're looking at me. When they look at me, they see not me but what they perceive as "an Irish person", and their responses to anything I say or do are mediated through these prejudices.

I haven't experienced the same kind of prejudice among Scots or Welsh; but that's just my own experience. I've certainly seen headlines about Rangers-versus-Celtic battles and the like. (Though these sound more like what you might laughingly call religious differences.)

Reading down through the thread, I've seen some typical examples of prejudiced terms - "The Irish" blew up a postbox; jibes about Cromwell; stereotypes about Irish people bearing grudges, etc.

Perhaps a corrective for anyone with stereotypes about other nationalities would be to read Irene Nemirovsky's book(s) Suite Francaise, which she wrote about the occupation of France, at the time of that occupation.

Nemirovsky was the least prejudiced of people, but she has a sharp eye for its workings.

(It's the best book I've read in the last 10 years, by the way.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:15 PM

I think we have to step back and not make judgements on who is anti this and who is pro that. The fact of the matter is that no one that I know is anti-Irish , but they are anti-Irish politics. I don't think the media is anti-Irish not even anti- political murderers parties.

It is very sad that the amount of truth that is out there about events that have happened over the past thirty years has been swept under the carpet by the mainstream media. We all have been fed Pro British propaganda for the last thirty years and to be honest I was sick of seeing it on the news. I think we have look at who is benifiting from all of this "new Ireland" stuff have we all have duped ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

Interesting thread and just thought I'd add my tuppence. Back in 1991 I went to England. At the time I was very self-conscious of my Irish accent, and the suspicion I felt of people watching me out the corner of their eye whan I was at the tube station or airport etc., and the sense I got of 'stay away from him, he's Irish'. Now it wasn't everywhere, and my guess is that the people that reacted like that suffered from cosmic xenophobia anyway. But it was there, as a definite feeling. Of course that was before the Ceasefire etc., and there were still signs everywhere about 'if you see anything suspicious...' etc., People I met on a personal basis seemd fine, perhaps at pains to prove they weren't biased. I probably got less flack than some of my friends, on account of my English surname (50% English family). I know many of my friends in those days got hassle at seaports, airports etc., and being forced to sign the PTA (the pink paper, we called it, Prevention of Terrorism Act form). One border official explained to my friend 'It's only because of the Irish problem, you see" My friend asked this guy if Northern irealnd was part of the UK, and of course the border official said it was, so my friend replied, "well, then, it seems to me to be more of an English problem than an Irish one" I don't know if he accidentally fell down a stairs after that one or not, but I believe he's still alive and well.

About 2002, up in Bushmills, an avowedly Loyalist town. The kerbside was still blue, white and red, The landlady in the B&B was nice enough, but back in town, lo and behold I couldn't get a bite to eat anywhere! Every cafe / restaurant I went to was 'just finished serving' or 'out of stock' (!) though I could see they evidently were not. But I guess my southern accent put them off. In the end, the good old chinese takeaway did the business.

Then I was over in Oxford one time to visit a friend (about 1998, maybe) and we all went for drinks in the pub with his work colleagues (English). They were all as nice as could be, and even at pains to show they were not anti-Irish, and some even searched hard in their minds to see if they had any Irish ancestry. I have to admit I was a bit bowled over and remember thinking "My God! It's gone hip to be Irish! The End must be Nigh!" It was all a bit of a turn around from the previous decade's experience.

I have quite a few good English friends and we share quite a laugh over Viz comic etc., But I must say I don't really like 'Irish' jokes a lot. One guy I know said 'you know why Irish jokes are so stupid? So English people will understand them' Now I think that wasn't very nice, but I could see where he was coming from. You do get an unthinking kind of person for whom the word 'Irish' is lazy shorthand for stupid, but often it just shows up their own ignorance. Liz Curtis wrote a very good book on the subject ("Nothing But the Same Old Story") and in it she recounts a typical example of this last kind of person: a British guy who'd gone on holidays and when he returned he developed his holiday snaps. Getting them back from the shop he discovered he had 24 close-ups of his left ear. "Must have been an Irish camera" he was quoted as saying in the local rag that bothered to report the story. Groan! Where do you start?
The tabloids have most to answer for in this regard, but they are soundly mocked by that excellent (and English) publication, Viz comic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM

Hello, Guest Nick. What an interesting read about your experience of visiting England. I can remember reading a newspaper back in the 90s before the ceasefire took place in Ireland. An Irish protestant man claimed he had come over to England for a visit and he felt very uncomfortable over here because of his northern Irish accent, as his visit was just after the Manchester bombing by the IRA. The media hyped things up so much about the IRA during that time and this made all Irish people a suspect as being a member of the IRA because of their accent. I did know some people that feared the IRA especially during that time. For example, my friend had just moved house to live in Manchester and she was arrested because her new neighbours were suspicious of her accent that sounded a bit like an northern Irish person. It turned out that she was actually from West Scotland and never have been to visit Ireland in her life and none of her family came from Ireland either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

Arrested, Alison? What was the charge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

I remember a similar thing happening in Birmingham in 1974. They were a lovely young couple who lived beside us. Released four days later. Shame really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Care to give us a link to exactly what youre alluding to, Guest? It will save us looking it up, wont it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

How angry those good people must have been at the IRA for bringing death, destruction and suspicion to their town.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:30 AM

she was arrested because her new neighbours were suspicious of her accent that sounded a bit like an northern Irish person

As a Mancunuian of over 50 years standing I do realise that our police force are not perfect, although when John Stalker was deputy chief it was better than most. I have never heard of them arresting people for having the wrong accent though. Can we have some facts to back up this accusation and the one from Birmingham please? Either that or stop posting falsities.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM

You're right Dave Stalker was a good man. Isn't interesting though, what happened to him and his career.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

To be honest Dave - I was living in Brum at the time. i can believe it and I know much worse stuff happened to lots of Irish people. The atmosphere must have resembled Whitechapel in the 1880's when jack the Ripper was about - a reign of terror.

The atmosphere is hard to describe.

Try and imagine it with these Al Quaeda blokes now. As a prelude the news on the TV every night was bombs going off in Belfast, and murders and our soldiers killed. then this McDade character blew himself up on the roof of Coventry post office. then these two bombs went off in pubs that everybody used in the city centre.

It all happened in a very short time. Up to that time Birmingham city centre streets had been as full at ten o'clock at night as they were at ten in the morning. After the bombs the whole place was deserted. People just scuttled out after work.

Irish folk singers were bluntly told to shut up if they sang a rebel song - apart from at the communist party folk club, where they had Brits Out all over the walls. People were rude and said awful things to anybody with an Irish accent - even to Irish children - (I was a teacher at the time). the Irish joke telling thing reached fever pitch - a defence mechanism maybe.

Grim times!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:23 AM

Manchester had 3 bombings I can remember. 2 in 1992 where one went off where everyone was being shepherded from the first and the massive one in 1996 that did us all a favour by blowing up half that monstrosity in the centre. I attended Irish sessions in pubs in Moss Side and the centre before and after the bombs and never saw any predjudice from either the people or the police. Perhaps I was lucky. Perhaps the people of Manchester are more tolereant than those of Birmingham. I doubt it though. I still haven't seen evidence of people being arrsted for having an Irish accent which is what was said earlier.

The only joke I heard refering to any of the bombings was a wonderful Stanley Accrington song in praise of the pillar box that withstood the 3000-pounder.

"What's that red thing sticking out of rubble?
It's a postbox, Pat. Postbox, Pat..."

You can guess the tune.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:46 PM

Many people, mostly shop workers and shoppers, were terribly injured by the '96 bomb.
No favours done to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:03 PM

Always seemed a bit of an odd place to target given the very high proportion of Irish in and around Manchester. Perhaps that is why there was not as much trouble about it as in Birmingham? Mind you, I would have thought a lot of Irish settled in Birmingham for the same reasons - Canal building.

And, to Den - Agreed. Stalker was a fine man and true to his concience. He lost his career because of it but he is probably all the better because of that. After all, at that level most police are simply diplomats and an honest and principled politician is something they cannot seem to cope with.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:10 PM

I have neither the inclination or motivation to get involved in this debate or yours. Change the record Keith. Go sign in as a GUEST and call me names or something. If you want to recall atrocities I can give you plenty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM

Sweeney, I did not bring up the bombings, I just responded to what others had said.
If you have a problem with that, frankly I do not care.
You may remember that someone I care for was caught up in the manchester bomb outrages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:03 PM

Paul, I just saw there that you seemed surprised that Alison had told you that some Irish girl known to her was arrested on suspicion. Why were you surprised, did you not believe her ? Do you want to know about a guy refused entry at both English airports and docks three times, 1975,77 and 78. Arrested and held for two days from were he was staying in Rainbow Hill in Worcester. Tortured by stupid questioning when he was staying at an address in Lena Gardens in London ? Paperwork kept as souvenirs here if you want to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:12 PM

Sweeney, you have dropped enough hints that you were an IRA man, though you always stopped short of admitting or denying it.

If you were a terrorist, the police were right to stop and question you.

Even if you only had close links with known activists, you would be flagged up as needing careful scrutiny.

Nothing to do with your accent.
(B.T.W. It was your friend Alison M who brought up Manchester bomb. Will you have a word?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM

Sorry Paul, thought you were still in Hull under your own name. Only terrorists in my country wore khaki.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM

Hello Divis.

To be honest, no I didnt.

Yes I'm aware of such things as 'Internment Without Trial' of course, but wouldnt have believed that even at the height of The Troubles that Arrests such as that would take place here on the Mainland. Are we talking here though about being arrested because of refusing to go down to the Police Station to answer questions, or house being stormed, & carted off in cuffs under a blanket? (Maybe I'll need to ask Alison about the specifics of this incident, sorry).

As to the icidets you were involved in (I cant see that I have so badly muundertood that it WASNT yourself you were referring to, as your meaning does seem plain)...will send you a P.M. about that, ok?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

Well, that was what the P.M. was going to be about!

I have to say, that I agree with Keith in this, & if they were right to be suspicious of you, then you brought it up in a way that hardly fits the tone of the conversation!

As to terrorists wearing khaki (or DPM) thats a slightly different discussion.

& I say to both you & Keith, you are both rational, intellingent men, yet you snipe at each other like kiddies! BEHAVE! *G*

If you cant debate nicely, you shouldnt be allowed debate at all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:40 PM

The other thing I was going to ask was, have you any idea what GUEST was on about here?:

..."GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

I remember a similar thing happening in Birmingham in 1974. They were a lovely young couple who lived beside us. Released four days later. Shame really."...

-its gone right over my head, frankly....unless he meant Guildford?

(NOT accusing that Guest of being you anonymously, btw...for one thing, YOU wouldnt have got it wrong!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:57 PM

I don't think any of us doubted the held on suspicion situations, Divis. We know it did go on. Alisons statement was that a woman in Manchester was arrested because her neighbours thought she her accent was suspicious. In fact she was Scottish. I doubt that even the Manchester police would be so stupid but I did give Alison the opportunity to provide proof of her statement. Hope that clears it up and bear in mind the idea in this thread was to determine if the English were anti-Irish. Such heresay and potential falacies do not realy help anyone.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:58 PM

Paul,
Firstly it was me I spoke about in that post.
Secondly, I was asked at the doors of both addresses by plain clothes guys to accompany them, I asked had I a choice, and was told no.
Thirdly I don't have a conviction record.
As you have so clearly stated that you are with Keith on this one, conversation over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

Dave, I never thought that the English were anti Irish. Never had a problem at street level myself. As for Alison's experience, I couldn't think of making a comment about her remark, as someone posted above that Alison is actually me under another name ! God I wonder who's mind could come up with something like that ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:24 PM

Divis, as they had no reason to be suspicious of you, other than presumably your accent, then yes, I can agree with yu, they WERE in the wrong.

I would ask you not to 'dismiss' me just because I agreed with Keith in that I too, thought it was a pertinent question, if thats what you were doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM

They did have reason to be suspicious.
Sweeney may or may not have been a memeber,he won't say, but he has told us that he knew volunteers.
Close links with known activists is reason to be suspicious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM

Good point Keith, I shouldnt have overlooked that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

Oh memories of a hardboard panelled room painted light blue with two guys with English accents telling me what they know about me and how they can and will change my life. Endless passing of photographs and A4 sheets to eachother, and threats what would happen to a pair of pensioners in their seventies who happened to be my parents.

What has happened to the guest posts ? thought there would be a few in by now, you are slipping.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM

divis you are and never have been above the law. Get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:30 PM

Guest, did he ever say he was?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

Divis = Alison?

Surely that recent stay in hospital was not...

:D (tG)

PS - Stop responding to Guest trolls guys. We all know they are not anyone who signs their own name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 05:23 PM

No Dave, meat and two veg, still there !


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Nickhere
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

Paul from Hull - sorry, have to say, but demanding a link to Guets's story about a couple arrested in 1974 is a bit silly, really. Where would you find such a link for a personal story like that? I could make one up if i was so inclined, to give you the 'empirical proof' you so crave, but then you might just dismiss that anyway on the basis you felt it was invented. Maybe you are looking for a link that hacks into to the police computer files?
If you wnat something more concrete, may I suggest looking no further than Roger Faligot, "The Kitson Experiment - Britain's Military Strategy in Ireland". Published by Zed Press, London. 1983. (ISBN: 0-86232-049-6). It details the systematic abuses that went on in the North's concentration camps such as the one at Long Kesh near Lisburn. When you read it, you will realise how much of Abu Gharib had already been tried out in N.Ireland. Maybe you will say, 'oh, but they were terrorists, they deserved it' 1) the kettle calling the pot black; and 2) the whole point of internment was that the guys so interned without trial weren't all in the IRA, but were merely suspected of being so. Being interned proved to be only the start of their worries. Of course, after being brutalised in Long Kesh and elsewhere, many joined up, a self-fulfilling prophecy for the FRU (the innocous sounding Forces Research Unit - read up on them as well); 3) any country / government /people that claims to be civilised has to behave better than 'terrorists' themselves or the line becomes blurred.

BTW - you may find the book hard to come by, The Brit government tried hard to block it, and I don't know how easy it is to find old copies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Nickhere
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM

But here's another book that provides the kind of concrete proof of the anecdotal evidence provided by 'Guest' etc., that you seek, and very well written it is, too:

Liz Curtis. "Nothing but the same old story - the roots of anti-Irish racism" Published by Sasta. Belfast:1996. (ISBN: 1-901005-00-3)

and another that you may find interesting (but more related to N.Ireland from the 20s to 1960s):

Ultach."The Orange Terror - the Partition of Ireland" Ard Righ Press: Belfast, 1998 (no ISBN given)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,SYTA Boston
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:24 PM

Nickhere, I bought it on Amazon last May. Seems he would dismiss it, didn't accept the personal story by the guy above, got what he deserved attitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:20 PM

I'm not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:29 AM

Welcome to mudcat Nickhere.
Perhaps you would like to introduce yourself?
Any interest in folk music?
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ard mhacha
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:16 AM

Nickhere, Surely the two best books on the N Ireland conflict are by the late John McGuffin, a Protestant, and    which are free to read on the Net are    -Internment and The Guinea Pigs-, Google John McGuffin and read the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:23 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:39 AM

Good to see the big two back on this thread (not you Keith).


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:40 AM

Sorry about that tirade Nickhere.
Feel free to tell us as much or as little about yourself as you please.
Again, welcome.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:40 AM

500th post!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM

sorry, have to say, but demanding a link to Guets's story about a couple arrested in 1974 is a bit silly, really. Where would you find such a link for a personal story like that?

So if I was to say, for instance, that I know a man who saw Nickhere steal all the Azaleas from his front garden everyone should just take that at face value? Apart from the fact that no one demanded anything I think it is pretty fair for someone to ask for confirmation of things posted as 'facts'. Otherwise what is the point? We could all make things up. Mind you, many probably do! I am still waiting for any sort of confirmation that a woman in Manchester was arrested for being Scottish!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:08 AM

Sorry....who wants what confirmed?

I got lost in all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:29 AM

DtG

If you get any kind of polite answer, come & find me yeah?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Bobby Sands
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:34 AM

I won the "Irish slimmer of the year" award in 1981 you know.
Begad,Begorrah and behave yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Gus
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:39 AM

The Muslim community are rapidly replacing the Irish as Britain's suspect community. The present terrorist legislation is being used by the police and security services to disrupt Muslim local communities in a similar way to that in which the Prevention of Terrorism Act was used against the Irish for decades.


Many Muslim leaders now believe disruption is beginning to alienate communities from the police. This approach is similar to that adopted toward the Irish community using the Prevention of Terrorism Act. A crime correspondent on a national newspaper who previously worked in Northern Ireland draws the parallel. "They are trying to strike a balance between rattling some in the community while keeping the community as a whole onside. In Northern Ireland we have seen how such an approach can drive people onto the terrorists side. The police need to try to get it right.

The Muslims are being seen as the new Irish in that they are viewed as the suspect community. When the Prevention of Terrorism Act (PTA) was brought in following the Birmingham and Guildford pub bombings in 1974 the Irish became a suspect community. Many were stopped at ports and airports. Houses were raided and people detained for anything from a few hours to seven days. Most were then released without charge, but I see this is enough to consider some of them guilty as seen on this site.

Little has changed. 7,052 were detained under the PTA between November 29, 1974 and December 31, 1991.

The miscarriages of justice involving the Birmingham Six, Judith Ward, the Guildford Four and the Maguires proved the racism of the policing and intelligence operations. The police, intelligence services and their bosses in government were quite happy to see innocent Irish people remain in prison for long periods of time. The racism at the time of the pub bombings extended to racist attacks on Irish people in Birmingham not being followed up by police in that area.

The effect of the operation of the PTA and the miscarriages of justice was to make Irish recall what they were doing and where they were at the time of a bombing. In Liverpool many Irish went absent from work the day after a bombing atrocity for fear of reprisals.

The PTA and miscarriages of justice had a salutary effect on the Irish resulting in it effectively retreating into the community. The Irish clubs developed as a network of havens where people could go and mix with their own. On the political front the Irish largely retreated from the scene. Despite being the largest ethnic minority in Britain, the community certainly didn't pull its weight on the political scene. It has only been with the advent of the Northern Ireland peace process and an end to the bombing that the Irish have been able to emerge and start to assert themselves fully both in a political and cultural sense in Britain.

From the point of view of safety from terrorism, the withdrawal of a community back in on itself is unhealthy. For the few terrorists around who may be plotting bomb attacks there is likely to be far more opportunity to hide. The feeling of a community under threat from the rest of the society will also foster sympathy for such individuals.We must also remember, bombings on mainland Britain was a reaction to British soldiers murdering men,women and children on the streets of Ulster.

In attempting to counter terrorism there is every danger that the British devided Communities that have lived side by side and contributed to British society for years then they suddenly began to feel like outcasts. Perhaps not surprisingly with the war in Ireland over, the Irish have now very much assimilated with British society. They have moved a step up the multiracial ladder. The people at bottom, getting kicked around now are the Muslims - the Irish should empathise with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:46 AM

All I did is reply to Guest Nick, because of his interesting story about visiting England. I don't have any prove about my friend in Manchester being arrested for having an Scottish accent that sounded like an northern Irish accent, as it was a long time ago now. The last I heard from her she had moved back to Scotland. It was her neighbours who called the police, because her parents came to deliver late evening, which was in the dark because they have been travelling all day from Scotland, some of her personal items, which were DVDs, Videos, and Children's books as she had a young daughter. I guess her suspious neighbours thought it was explosives etc. I was just sharing an interest with Nick about this story my friend told me during that time, because I asked her where she had been as I had not seen her for over a week. There is nothing to argue here and my friend does not have a reason to lie to me either. She only told me because I asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:15 AM

Of course you don't have to prove it Alison. Any more than I have to prove it if I say that I know someone who was arrested for wearing odd socks. It does make it a pretty pointless discussion if anyone can wave any unsubstatiated accusation about as if it were fact. If we can say what we like in a debate without being able to back up the statement we may as well pack it in now.

I am also pretty confused by your last statement. She only told me because I asked. Do you often start convesations by asking people if they have ever been arrested on suspicion of terrorism? I am sure you are making a valid point in there somewhere but between the heresay and confusing terminology I am afraid I cannot for the life of me think what it can be.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: weerover
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:38 AM

Dave, I personally find it more convincing if someone relates a direct experience than (say) points to a newspaper story – I know the papers don't always tell the whole truth!
You may choose not to believe what someone says, for whatever reason. You may even say, "I find that very hard to believe", which is a (barely) polite way of saying "You lie". I do not know Alison, but at the moment I have no reason to doubt what she says. I can certainly believe someone being under suspicion for having a particular accent: I have first-hand experience of seeing someone arrested (and charged, but found not guilty) for less. I will not elaborate further as I have no documentary evidence.

wr


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:04 AM

Agreed, wr, direct experience is good. Alison has never said she had direct experience. She did not see, hear or experience the arrest. It was what someone told her. In other words just heresay. It adds nothing to the debate. As to why the debate was opened up again after 10 months you would have to ask Alison - It was her that resurected it. I have my suspicions but rather than voice them with no evidence I would rather keep quiet:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:00 PM

"She only told me because I asked. Do you often start convesations by asking people if they have ever been arrested on suspicion of terrorism?"

Dave, at that time my friend and I were at Collage. We had arranged to meet up first thing on that Monday morning to do some studying before lessons, but she never showed, which was unusual for her not to show up. A week went by and I asked her where she had been then she told me. She told me it was a frightening and awful experience for her, as I guess I just remembered it and also I was sharing this story with Nick. I don't expect anyone to believe me, but if Nick was a member I would have pm the story to him instead. Kind Regards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:24 PM

Part one. my friend had just moved house to live in Manchester and she was arrested because her new neighbours were suspicious of her accent that sounded a bit like an northern Irish person. It turned out that she was actually from West Scotland and never have been to visit Ireland in her life and none of her family came from Ireland either

Part two The last I heard from her she had moved back to Scotland. It was her neighbours who called the police, because her parents came to deliver late evening, which was in the dark because they have been travelling all day from Scotland, some of her personal items, which were DVDs, Videos, and Children's books as she had a young daughter

Part three Dave, at that time my friend and I were at Collage. We had arranged to meet up first thing on that Monday morning to do some studying before lessons, but she never showed, which was unusual for her not to show

So, Alison, this good friend of yours had just moved to Manchester where, presumably, you were both at college. It was just after one of the Manchester bombings which were December 1992 and June 1996. Neither of which seem to be the date to start college. Regardless of that she had been driving all night from Scotland with her young daughter and her parents had arrived late with DVDs, Videos and books. While she was about all this she had arranged to meet you on Monday morning. OK. Still possible. Her 'crime' was having a Scottish accent. Presumamably she could prove that she was from Scotland. That the DVDs (Lucky them - Having a DVD player as a poor student 10 - 14 years ago!), Videos and childrens books were not explosive I would guess is quite apparant.

All this time the little girl is either left on her own or the aging parents have to take her back to Scotland for a week while your good friend proves she is not Irish. Then, after you being so worried about her she moved back to Scotland which was, in your own words, the last you ever heard of this good friend.

Can I offer some advice, Alison. You are at liberty to ignore it. Look at what you have said previously before you post your next comment. If you are consistant and believable more people will atke notice. Can I also ask a question. Why, when this thread has been dormant for 10 months, did you decide to resurrect it?

Looking forward to your next installment.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:00 PM

Greetings Dave,
The disc played fine on my player thanks.
Not one of his best though. Not surprised it is not widely screened.

nice work with Alison.
What is she/he trying to achieve do you think?

Thanks again,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM

Cheers Keith - Glad you enjoyed it:-)

I'm not sure what Alison is up to. Maybe you can explain yourself, Alison? You don't have to of course but I think your Mudcat posting career may be better received if you could. Perhaps that isn't important? Ah well...

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM

You're getting there slowly but surely. Now all you need to realise is that you have been hook, lined and sinkered by the biggest kidder on here and still don't realise that yet. Ah well takes time eh? He's a good friend is he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM

Don't understand that, Guest, sorry. I started the thread. Are you suggesting that I am the biggest kidder on here? Or are you suggesting it is Alison because she resurected the thread? You reference to 'he's a good fried' seems to suggest you are refering to a male so is that me? Would you please explain.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

Sorry for being so vague. This kind of thread breeds it. No you are the kidded not the kidder. You'll have to work the rest out yourself. You won't believe it unless you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

Dave, it must have been after the June 1996 then, as it was all hyped up in the media for sometime after the Manchester bombing period. I cannot remember the full details and I am not up to anything, I was just replying to Nick that's all. I am not lying about this story, as I don't see the point in lying. Who cares really.      

About this thread, so far as I can remember my first ever message was on this thread as I was new on here and I just wanted to say that I was not anti Irish. I guess I just wanted to reply to Nick here below too, which is on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

I will go elsewhere to another thread, Kind Regards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Why would people be arrested on suspicion when there is no terrorist activity then, Alison. There hasn't been any in Manchester since 1996. Can you let us know when it was at least so we can try to determine why your good friend who you haven't seen since was arrested.

I am honestly trying to help. Maybe it wasn't as you remember. Maybe your friend didn't tell you the whole truth? If you were indeed students perhaps your lodgings were in Hulme or Moss Side. Maybe the neighbours saw packages being delivered in the early hours and thought they were drugs?

If your first post really was on this thread how did you find it? It was certainly not on the either the music or BS sections and hadn't been for 10 months. Come on, I'm trying to throw you a life-line here. Let us know you are not talking complete bollocks.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM

Dave, I meant she got arrested some weeks after the bombings took place, but which one I don't know except it was in Manchester. The problem is I cannot remember which year it actually was except it was on the 90s. We attended College part time in Cheltenham not in Manchester, I was living at home and she was staying with another friend of hers, which was not far from the College. I attended this College in 1993 to 1997 part time and she attened between one or two of those years. In that time she had moved to South of Manchester then two weeks after that she got arrested in the early hours of that Monday morning. Before that her parents travelled down from Scotland with some of her personal items and arrived late evening deliver them to her house. I was only friends with her for about a year, as after that ordeal she left College and went back to live in Scotland at her parents house. I never saw her again. I just found her story was interesting to tell Nick.

About the thread, I was trying out the filter button to search subjects to do with the word "Irish" and found it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

The interrogation of this young lady is nothing short of ridiculous and cannot be allowed to continue.

It's been said it on many occasions until I'm almost sick hearing of it, you seem to want an exclusive little group of your own.

Pray tell me, what TRUTH is emerging? Are you referring to the TRUTH that Alison's friend lied? Get your facts right before making wild, unsubstantiated allegations against members, Alison in particular. Why do you keep bleating on about it, you have a lot to answer for Keith A of Hertford.

Stop badgering her, at every opportunity with all this stupid innuendo and speculation. It's nothing less than a 'witchhunt'. Grow up and get to grips with the REAL world, not the fantasy land some of you prefer to be a part of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:01 PM

The only fantasy here is being spun by 'alison'. There are kangaroos at the bottom of the hole 'she' is digging.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:21 PM

That is obnoxious to rouse moral indignation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

*sigh*


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Epona
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

Welcome, Nickhere! Beware the sneaky pms.....

I was shocked to see this thread again! I thought for sure Keith had more stunning insight for us. Alas, my hopes and dreams were crushed.

:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:51 PM

yes to think this thread had had more interest than my one about Errol Flynns willy.

I'm flabbergasted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 03:46 AM

Guest, Oakville. What are you on? Keith is not 'bleating on' about anything. It is me asking Alison questions to which she doesn't seem to have sensible answers.

Epona - Your posts are usualy good. How come you are also accusing Keith of something he is not guilty of? Alison resurected the thread . Keith has made a couple of replies since. Why did you assume it's resurgence had something to do with him?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:47 AM

This thread is the greatest evidence of a people in decline perhaps ever seen. Maybe its surpassed by the "Proud to be a British" site. Its a close thing.But Wow! this is a cultural anthropologists dream to see a micro-culture and its myths and beliefs implode in real time. Quite extraordinary. And to see their opponents tease and laugh at them is really quite amazing. Sad too, but then again what goes around, comes around. Students will study this in years to come. Agreed Epona.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:53 AM

My god you're right, we've done something of cultural significance at last

I'm so proud!

You delude yourself guest - its not that easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:05 AM

I'm glad you understood it WLD - Baffled the hell out of me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:22 AM

I don't think there has been a decent thread about Ireland for some time. I tend to come in on the defensive. This thread was good, but it has went off the rails a bit,probably best to allow it die naturally. I don't know if it's just me, but I can't make head nor tail of some of the posts recently. Would it not be best to just ignore the silly crap guest posts ? answering them seems to send it all over the place, maybe the purpose of the poster. There are a lot of subjects we could talk about, and agree to ignore the arsehole guests.
Topics such as,

Attitudes in Ireland since the peace deal.

Dissidents


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM

F. it, I hit the button before I finished it, await part two please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:26 AM

Guest Oakville, I am not going to reply anymore to this story about my friend, as I would only be just repeating meself over and over. I cannot prove whether my friend during that time was lying to me or not, but this is the end of this story. Kind Regards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:31 AM

Dissident Republicans and Loyalists fight on.
Short weekend breaks in Ireland.
The troubles, a tour guide.
A new generation, post troubles.
Reconciliation, a process of restoring relationships.
Were both sides wrong ? Or was it only Republicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:46 AM

A voice of reason at last. Aye - Give it up please. Alison resurected it and probably now regrets doing so. I started it and thought it had reached a sucessful conclusion last October. Let it fall of the end again.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: weerover
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:13 AM

Dave, again I have to say I see no reason to disbelieve Alison. I know absolutely nothing about her except that she is probably female. If she had concocted this story for whatever reason I reckon she would have made sure the details were watertight: the apparent vagueness and/or inconsistency is just what I would expect of a story from my own first-hand experience of events ten years ago. I believe things happened pretty much as Alison relates until someone offers evidence to the contrary. If you choose not to believe her, fine.

wr


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Epona
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

Oh Dave. I don't assume the resurgence had anything to do with him - but writing it made me laugh, as it's doing now...If humor is lost on this thread, I shall go try another!

:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Nickhere
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:27 PM

Hi Keith! Sorry about the long, long delay, but I only got back from holidays recently (in Bosnia of all places, but that's another story) and lots of other stuff happening, so I didn't really have time to log in.
Yes, I do like folk music, quite a lot in fact. I've been playing the guitar for the last 15 or 16 years, lots of different styles. I especially like old time American stuff, mountain music or whatever people call it, stuff like that. But I also go in for stuff like Buffy Saint-Marie (though to be honest, while I can strum the chords, there's no way I could sing like her even if I tried, so I have to adapt it a bit!). Blues is another firm favourite - Mississipi John Hurt, Son House, Bukka White etc., again, the 20s and 30s my favourite period, the style had changed quite a bit by the 40s. Myabe some wouldn't regard it as strictly folk, but I reckon a lot of blues and folk intertwine and it's hard to define it as one or the other. Then there's Irish folk music of course, since I come from Ireland, and heard a lot of it growing up and still do. That's one of the things I like best about Ireland - almost anywhere you go in the country you'll find live music being played in pubs etc., by very talented (and, ok, sometimes not so talented, but passable anyway) musicians. I travel a lot to Italy, and that tradition is almost non-existent now. You won't get much more than a CD of Afro-celt in any Irish pub in Rome or Florence. I gather they have more of a musical tradition further south, tarantellas, arias and so on, though I don't often go further south than Rome. I like the Neapolitan tradition of singing: Santa Lucia, O Sole Mio - hard to beat those tunes. I regard Naples as the Wales of Italy in that regard.
I occasionally play in pubs and stuff, just for my own and friends' amusement really, I am no wizard on the guitar. I also bring it to the woods when we have one of our all nighter BBQ / picnics during the summer (one for the solstice around June 21st has been a long-standing tradition with my friends and I) - it's hard to beat a few songs round a campfire, and being the musical country that it is, there's always several people who can play or have a song, so the guitar gets shared round. I use it at work too - I teach English to foreigners, and teaching them a song is a great way for them to learn English and have a little fun. So that's me, more or less. Good to be a signed up member instead of always logging in as Guest!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 07:58 PM

Oh dear Nickhere, did he question why you arrived here too ? sorry about that.


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