Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]


BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Dave the Gnome 27 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 05 - 06:20 PM
Le Scaramouche 27 Aug 05 - 06:22 PM
GUEST 27 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM
Divis Sweeney 27 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM
Sorcha 27 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM
Divis Sweeney 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM
GUEST 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM
GUEST 27 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM
artbrooks 27 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM
bobad 27 Aug 05 - 07:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM
GUEST 27 Aug 05 - 08:28 PM
PoppaGator 27 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM
artbrooks 28 Aug 05 - 12:01 AM
harpmolly 28 Aug 05 - 01:49 AM
Tiocfaidh 28 Aug 05 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,David Hannam 28 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM
Leadfingers 28 Aug 05 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit 28 Aug 05 - 05:04 AM
GUEST 28 Aug 05 - 05:18 AM
ard mhacha 28 Aug 05 - 05:46 AM
GUEST 28 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM
mooman 28 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM
s&r 28 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM
Grab 28 Aug 05 - 06:34 AM
Divis Sweeney 28 Aug 05 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,DB 28 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,David Hannam 28 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Dave Hannam 28 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM
kendall 28 Aug 05 - 11:40 AM
Celtaddict 28 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,beachcomber 28 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM
Celtaddict 28 Aug 05 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM
Big Mick 28 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Aug 05 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 29 Aug 05 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,Ohh-Aah2 29 Aug 05 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 29 Aug 05 - 02:06 AM
GUEST 29 Aug 05 - 02:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Aug 05 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 29 Aug 05 - 04:39 AM
woodsie 29 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM
GUEST 29 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,kendall 29 Aug 05 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,DB 29 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 29 Aug 05 - 08:46 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM

On another thread it has been stated categoricaly that the 'average Brit' is anti-Irish.

Is this true?

I am British and I am not anti anyone. No-one I know is anti anyone. Not by race anyway!

I have laid my cards down and said as far as I know the British, in general, are not anti-Irish so I am asking for either possitive proof or definate denial of this statement.

Out of the 60 million or so people on this Isle are the majority anti-Irish? Are a significant minority? Does, by any reasonable definition of average, the average Brit hate or even dislike the Irish?

I suspect not myself but I am willing to be shown the error of my ways. I am talking of today btw. Not in Oliver Cromwells time.

Be truthful please.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:20 PM

As a generalisation it's rubbish. It exists all right, but even at the height of the Troubles I don't think it ever reached the level of the other varieties of racism those merchants go in for.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:22 PM

Plus there is a difference between prejudices or stereotypes and hatred.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM

Hmmmm.... Oliver Cromwell said he liked the Irish, for he could always find one to turn the spit whilst he roasted another. So, even in his time, the English were fond of the Irish. And, likewise, for 900 years.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:45 PM

My mother's grandfather was English and even to this day, my grandmother tells me how he wouldn't allow his wife to talk about her family because she was Irish and the Irish weren't worthy of being mentioned. He felt they were beneath his English stock. Hah! If he knew me, he would be furious! And that thought makes me smile....

E


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

I'm not Brit, but I'm sure Pro Irish.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:50 PM

It would me as well, Epona, but as you say that was your Mothers Grandfather. What are things like now?

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:53 PM

Brits as a group are neither pro, nor anti, Irish. Individuals may tend in either direction, based on their personal experience in dealing with Irish people.

Many Brits are undoubtedly anti IRA, but the IRA form a very small percentage of the Irish nation.

I don't know who it was, but sombody once said "All generalisations are wrong, even this one".

Hold that thought, it's a good'un.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

True, what are things like now was your question, Dave. And as we know, many things can change from one generation to the next. But, many things can also stay the same. It will be interesting to see the rest of the responses you get on this subject if everyone is truthful.

Amen, Sorcha!

E


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

Oliver's times? Well, a hundred or so years ago, in the US and Canada, signs like "No Irish Need Apply" and "No Irish Beyond This Point" and "Paddys Out" were still common.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:05 PM

Hmmm... I may give my identity away here, but, what the hell. I was engaged to a lass, the one true love of my life, not so many years ago, secretly, for we planned to wed after she finished university. Until her grandmother found out that I was, indeed, half Irish Catholic and half French Catholic, whilst they were pure English Presbyterian. Didn't matter anymore that my bran muffins were a hit at coffee after service. I was turfed not long after. Good thing I wasn't skewered by those little old IODE's who use to lance their way down the aisle of the church every Sunday... fucking hypocrits.

And, this is is the "New World", thousand of miles and centuries away. On the average, of course, people are people. The Brits are some of the very best. But, the bad apples spoil it for all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

GUEST 6:35 PM: Cromwell was hardly a nice person, and his methods of making war would make Osama cringe, but they were pretty normal for his era. The fact is that he spent less than ten months in Ireland and the task assigned him by the House of Commons was to defeat the Royalist forces there, who were Anglo-Irish landowners or English (both Protestant and Catholic). He was not there to persecute the "native" Irish, and generally didn't go out of his way to do so; he treated his enemies in Ireland just about the same as he did those in England.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:12 PM

As were signs dissing Italians, Poles, Jews,"negroes" etc. This was the perceived perogative of the so called landed gentry unwilling to share their space with the dirty unwashed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM

What does tend to irritate at times are some of the "Irish jokes".   The ones that just play on the "thick Mick" note, without even trying to be funny.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 08:28 PM

Care to explain again for the Kerryman?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 10:16 PM

Geez, artbrooks ~ are we talking about the same Cromwell?

He was not there to persecute the "native" Irish, and generally didn't go out of his way to do so;...

Didn't I once hear about someone proclaiming "to Hell or Connaught?" Wasnt there a bit about dispossessing all the native Irish in the fertile lands of Ulster, banishing them to the barren west, and replacing them with "plantations" peopled with Scottish Prebyterians? Isn't there still a lot of bad blood ~ also known as "Troubles" ~ over ths very issue lo these many centuries later?

Now, I'm still ready to believe any British individual alive today who asserts he/she has no problem with the Irish. But I'd wager than anyone still speaking as an apologist for Oliver Cromwell might well find that the average Irishman has a problem with him!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:01 AM

PoppaGator, it certainly still reverberates...unfortunately the "facts" mostly aren't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 01:49 AM

I still giggle when I remember my mom's story about my parents telling my great-grandmother Mom was pregnant with me. They said, "We're going to name her Molly," and Gaga sniffed and opined, "Tsk...sounds like a charwoman's name."

*snicker*

And my grandmother was Irish-Italian, but in total denial of her Irish side. Of course, she couldn't have been in too much denial, or she wouldn't have married a Cyril Doyle. *grin*

Molly (or did she mean fishmonger?)


P.S. Wasn't it Cromwell who said of the Burren, "There isn't water enough to drown a man, trees enough to hang a man, or soil enough to bury a man," or similar?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 03:38 AM

On another thread you referred to yourself as 'English', Dave.
(Funny how I knew you'd be the kind of person that would be likely to do that....)

We're talking about a frame of mind here...

"Plus there is a difference between prejudices or stereotypes and hatred."
Exactly, Le Scaramouche.

Let's not confuse the issue here; we're not talking about hate.
We're talking about an Anti-Irish (Northern Nationalists in particular) bias among people who feel they have to call themselves 'British', as opposed to 'English' (Passport requirements, notwithstanding)

I think we wont get a scientific result though, Dave.

I don't think Anti-Irish people will come in here and defend their standpoint; most anti- anything sentiment you'd care to name, is a product of either historical predjudice, or decent 'marketing' on behalf of the 'pro-' whatever sentiment, side.

If the sniping that is done here on these boards by British people at anything remotely Pro-Irish, is anything to go by, take those comments, and juxtapose them into every living room in England, and tell me that those comments are not said, by your average guy with an over-developed Britannia Rules the Waves gene.

In the case of the Northern Nationalists, oddly enough it was the US Courts that made a few examples out of the 'British' Justice System.

Anti-Irishness is institionalised, Dave.

It is only free-thinkers who break that mould.

The average 'Everybody else' couldn't care less if we dropped off into the Atlantic or not.
Preferably the former, of course (... and there is documentary evidence in the archives of Mudcat, supporting this; I couldn't be arsed finding it at the minute, but that and worse is in there, you can take my word on that)

"... from apathetic to downright hostile"

As a Pro-Irish Brit is a contradiction in terms, our scale must start at 'apathetic'

Anyway let's see what the folks say...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

I don't think the English are particularly anti-irish at all.

You will hear the odd irish-put down joke, or perhaps enthusiastic rivalry, but as for actual hatred of the irish, certainly not. Maybe it Scotland the divide is more pronounced, but other than that...no.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 04:13 AM

IF the 'average' Brit is Anti - Irish , how come Irish Music sessions are so popular all over Britain ?? - AND Irish theme Pubs ?? AND Guiness ???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:04 AM

I don't think we will get a particularly scientific answer here either, Tiocfaidh. But when all comes to all it is in response to a particularly un-scientific statement:-)

Interesting point on the English/British bit btw. Perhaps we can take another straw poll? Who, in England, classes themselves as English and who claims they are British? I'll start. I am primarily English. Fiercely Lancastrian. Proud of both and equaly proud of being both part immigrant and fully European. I have never considered myself British and am very unsure even what it constitutes!

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:18 AM

I don't think Anti-Irish people will come in here and defend their standpoint.

And I don't think many who aren't anti Irish will feel the need to come in and defend themselves against someone's preconcieved idea of themselves either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:46 AM

I worked in England throughout the 1960s and I found that the English were certainly prejudiced against anyone Black or Asian, the Irish would have come in a poor third.

The attitudes would have certainly changed during the past IRA campaign, I am taking into account the stories of Irish people who had to confront this on a daily basis, through there work, and also the stories of their children, who were given a terrible time at school.

With the present conflict in Iraq and the London bombings, the object of todays hatred would be Asians, God help the innocent among those Asians who have to work in England,it dosen`t matter where in the East they come from, their racial features will be enough to make them the brunt of racial hatred.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM

I worked in England throughout the 1960s and I found that the English were certainly prejudiced against anyone Black or Asian.

And that prejudice was still thriving in Ireland into the last decade. I guess some people just take longer to let go and move on.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: mooman
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

I'm an Irish citizen and passport holder but was brought up in London and have a London accent, i.e. I don't sound discernabaly Irish except to a trained linguistics expert who would pick up a characteristic residual vowel sound typical of North-West Ireland.

As such, I have experienced some rather nasty and unpleasant "institutional racism" in several places I worked where it was not realised I am Irish.

But no... I certainly don't think it is endemic amongst the British but rather confined to a relatively small number of ignorant individuals. On the contrary, I think the British are a tolerant nation,

Peace

moo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: s&r
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:28 AM

We're not remotely anti-Irish: we're both British, English, Northern Lanky (by adoption). We go to Ireland often, love the country and have never found anything there but open arms from the Irish.

We know little about the tensions in the North: in general it seems to be absent in the South where we visit. We would like to see a peaceful settlement that leaves all those in the North feeling that there has been a fair and just outcome.

The threads that occur here sometimes seem counter productive: it's easy to find bitterness and hard to relinquish it.

Stu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:34 AM

The average 'Everybody else' couldn't care less if we dropped off into the Atlantic or not.

Yep, I've said that often enough, *but* only in relation to the IRA and Loyalist paramilitaries and their supporters. As I remember, my quote was something along the lines of "If both those bunches of evil bastards drop into the ocean and drown, I'll be happy".

Since most Irish and Northern Irish people share my view, I guess that makes me pro-Irish...

Graham.

PS. I'm English. Being as England is part of Britain, that also makes me British, and I'll use either depending on how specific I want to be about where I come from (if I wanted to be more specific yet, I'd say I came from Lancashire, or from Lytham St. Annes, or from Ansdell). "What kind of person" does that make me?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:38 AM

Grab - That makes you the kind of person that's good at geography! :)

Stu - It is certainly hard to reliquish bitterness, but though some threads may seem counterproductive to you and some others, I must say that they indeed have helped me see several issues in ways that I wouldn't have. Some have even helped me recognize some of my own biases and really confront that bitterness in order to let it go. So, while you may see them as counterproductive, at least for me they have been very helpful as well as educational.

E


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:22 AM

If I think back 30 years, or so, ago there was a fair amount of disrespect for our Irish neighbours around (eg. 'Irish jokes' etc.). Thankfully, a lot of that seems to have died out. The reasons for this are probably quite complex, but I would suggest such things as the emergence of Ireland as successful European nation and a more positive portrayal of Irish people in the British mass media have all helped.
Personally, I grew up listening to Irish traditional singers and musicians (as well as English and Scottish ones)- they convinced me (if I needed convincing) that Irish people and Irish culture have always been worthy of the highest respect.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:21 AM

To quote the great Alan Partridge,

"ders more to ireland dan dis".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:28 AM

Or another great one:

Alan Partridge:

'Sunday Bloody Sunday'. What a great song. It really encapsulates the frustration of a Sunday, doesn't it? You wake up in the morning, you've got to read all the Sunday papers, the kids are running round, you've got to mow the lawn, wash the car, and you think "Sunday, bloody Sunday!". Alan Partridge.

Pure genius


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:40 AM

Morticia is Irish. Anyone anti Morticia? Better not admit it!

In this country, the signs "No Irish need apply" was all about economics and jobs. had nothing to do with religion. American laborers resented them coming here and taking jobs, but of course, they couldn't admit that so they played the religion card.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

The economic concern has fueled bad feeling against immigrants in many times and places, and by extension probably bad feeling against the place from which they emigrated as well. At the risk of turning this into an actual music thread, there is a broad assortment of non-PC older, and tongue-in-cheek newer, songs which point this out.
Jan Christensen's song for the reopening of Ellis Island has a song, putting into words the feeling of earlier immigrants toward later ones, "They all look funny and they don't speak English and they're taking our jobs away..."
A somewhat older one is sung from the viewpoint of an Irish woman bemoaning that currently the Italian immigrants are taking the jobs because they will work for less, but things will be better "When McGinnis gets a job."
That gentle and tolerant Scots emigrant to Australia, where even more than in the U.S. the vast majority are immigrants of relatively recent time, Eric Bogle's tongue was probably bleeding from his fantasied Aussie lambasting of all unfamiliar newcomers in his ferocious, "I hate wogs, they live like dogs, some eat bananas and some eat frogs, some wear sandals and some wear clogs, it's all the bloody same to me 'cause I hate wogs."
There are plenty of these, of a variety of ages. In an earlier time when people did not travel as widely as often, distrust of the stranger was likely largely due to unfamiliarity of appearance and ways. More recently with increased worldwide mobility, the economic concern has probably played a larger role. Historically, newcomers, strangers in a strange land, have been willing to do jobs the local individuals may not be, or to do tough jobs for lower pay. The U.S. has had definite waves of immigration from different parts of the world in different times. I suspect that in difficult times, the brunt of bad feeling has been borne by whatever group happened to be the most recent large wave of immigrants.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 06:03 PM

Interesting thread this,
I lived and worked in London in the 50s -60s too and I remember well the indifferent acceptance of my fellow occupants,in a London Youth Hostel,of the arrival of two Southern Irishmen (my brother and I) among them. This lulled us into a sense of false security , to a large extent, and I can remember the shock of seeing "No Irish, No Coloureds" on the shop front advertising cabinets in areas like Maida Vale, Paddington, Earl's Court etc., etc.
There was a widespread attitude of "superiority" towards Irish people then, among Londoners, but we were mostly treated ( I think, provided that we behaved according to the same social rules, and why would we not !)like Pavlov's dog. Only once, on the Soccer pitch, did I receive racial insult from an English person (which I believed him to be)......well, I did kick him. Gratuitous offence , however, could be taken by anyone of a sensitive disposition, as it was constantly , mostly unwittingly, offered in every day conversation, newspapers, and radio broadcasts and, especially, at Speakers corner, Marble Arch. I suppose that these kind of attitudes did tend to force some of us into certain areas, Ghettos, almost, to adopt the language of the time.   
Nowadays , I find that the British Press, and not merely the "Red Tops", constantly adopt an almost sneering attitude , especially with regard to that of which we feel proudest. This would include our better international levels of sporting performance, economic performance and even our attempts to rationalise our relationship with Northern Ireland.
There has been no comparable , institutionalised, Anti English (or British) discrimination here for many years.
I also ran a small restaurant here in an Irish village for 10 yrs and was constantly being amazed by the number of middle-aged to elderly British/English people who came in and admitted that it was their first trip to Ireland and how wrong their preconceptions had been.
"We'll be back !" was the common attitude I found. I do not believe that has changed since those 90s although our roads sure have.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 09:27 PM

My personal and unscientific observation from a good deal of travel in the past decade in Ireland, England, and Scotland, and from listening to a great number of songs and the commentary that goes with them from the singers, and sitting many hours talking with friends from various points across the pond, is that many English people like Ireland (when they see it) but are not eager to know Irish people, and many Irish people have no problem with English people but have a long-established antipathy toward England as a nation. Both of these views probably have historic roots, as many Irish were poor immigrant workers in England in the past (sometimes the very recent past, right up to Celtic Tiger days) but their homeland remains a beautiful place (and, sadly, possibly rendered more scenic to some by the reduction in population in the mid-19th century), and Ireland as a nation has seen England/Britain/UK as an empire-building invader over the centuries, but individuals have of necessity worked closely with English people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

"I don't think the English are particularly anti-irish at all" - David Hannam

No, neither do we, David.
Read Tiocfaidh's post again.

"I don't think we will get a particularly scientific answer here either, Tiocfaidh. But when all comes to all it is in response to a particularly un-scientific statement:-)" - Dave

(Let me, Paul...)
The fairly scientific poll we did on the Mudcat posts, showed a marked bias, Dave, and on the 'Loyalist' thread, you have sort of accepted that; you could name them yourself, you said...

"IF the 'average' Brit is Anti - Irish , how come Irish Music sessions are so popular all over Britain ?? - AND Irish theme Pubs ?? AND Guiness ???" - Leadfingers.

Combat 18 use Irish Pubs in Europe as 'headquarters' at England's 'away' games.
And sing a decent 'rebel' song (a British nomenclature, by the way) in some of these 'Irish' Pubs, and you'll get the "I feel offended..." story thrown back at you.

"And I don't think many who aren't anti Irish will feel the need to come in and defend themselves against someone's preconcieved idea of themselves either" - Guest

Perhaps not, Guest, but the discussion has been opened, and people will feel free (or otherwise...), to give their opinion, and to stick their monikers to it.
Anti-Irishness on the Mudcat has been accepted.
How subliminal is it within the psyche of the average 'Brit'
(... please note that 'English' people don't get called 'Engs'....)

And please note, also, that we are not looking for how far up the scale of racism, Anti-Irishness lies.... as being comparable to African, Asian, etc. Irish people are lucky enough in that there were other objects for 'British' people to throw their superiority complex at.

"And that prejudice was still thriving in Ireland into the last decade. I guess some people just take longer to let go and move on" - Guest

Not the 'Reverend' Ian's mob, I'm afraid.
One of his Ministers/Borough Council Representatives recently passed around leaflets protesting against the building of a Mosque in North County Armagh.
Sky News interviewed the guy, and as he was being interviewed, a small crowd of kids appeared to wave, and make faces into the camera. 'Man of God', Reverend Whatshisname, turns around to the kids and in full hearing of the 'British' public said "These Muslims eat their children, you know; we don't want them here, do we?"
Kids say "No"
Oddly enough, this kind of thing might be the catalyst..., as in 7-10 years time some of these 'Children Eaters' will be on the Electoral Register.

"The threads that occur here sometimes seem counter productive: it's easy to find bitterness and hard to relinquish it." - s&r

These threads do not set out to be counter-productive, s&r. They are created to make us think.
Has anyone actually researched what being 'British' entails?
Because it is fundamental to the premise being offered here

"I'm English. Being as England is part of Britain, that also makes me British" - Grab

... in a nutshell...

"In this country, the signs "No Irish need apply" was all about economics and jobs. had nothing to do with religion" - kendall.

In England, it wasn't necessarily related to religion, neither, kendall.
The Act of Union made any further 'Popish Plots' impossible.
They were quite happy to have us work down the tunnels and on the roads in England... they just didn't want us staying in their lodging houses.

" ... and Ireland as a nation has seen England/Britain/UK as an empire-building invader over the centuries, but individuals have of necessity worked closely with English people." - Celtaddict

That's just known as the dynamics of the situation, Celtaddict. France, England and Germany could equally fit there.
The British Government over the years since 1971 have been in secret contact with the IRA (probably un-beknownst to most English people), in direct violation of their own 'no negotiating with 'Terrorists' stance.
Who do you think the Government were trying to hoodwink on these occasions?
The Irish?

No, dear readers. The 'British' population had to believe they were actually winning the war against us.
Those 'free-thinkers' that Tiocfaidh talks about, are those that don't, or never did, buy in to the double standard

YEE - HA folks!

(I think we're actually getting somewhere...)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM

While I respect the intent of the thread, it seems ludicrous to me. Among the British folks in general, and the English specifically, I don't find them to be anymore anti Irish than anything else. There is no denying the culpability of the government in the events of the last 400 years or so, but I find that most I know don't support the policy of their government in the North of Ireland. But most of the folks I am acquainted with are working class.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 11:34 PM

Sorry, missed this one:
"but I would suggest such things as the emergence of Ireland as successful European nation and a more positive portrayal of Irish people in the British mass media have all helped." - DB

Undoubtedly, DB.
'Marketing' and spin have always tipped the balance.

That is the process we are now going through...

The Irish Nationalist in the North of Ireland has always basically known that the Media held the key to English Public Opinion here; if the Prime Minister depends on the endorsement of 'The Sun' to win an election, for instance, what can centuries of institutionalised Anti-Irishness do for the heavily-shielded-from-reality English public?

Cast your mind back to WMDs, David Kelly, and the pictures from the Iraqi prisons.

It is very hard for an Establishment who wants it's citizens to trust its' take on things to keep the deception up, when its' dirty linen is constantly getting washed in public.
That's one of the advantages of the technological age; more transparency.

In my opinion there will always be 'war-mongerers'.
And there will always be people who support such 'war-mongerers' blindly, irrespective of any moral or ethical constraint they are asked to observe.

How they convince their Electorate is what really matters, however.
How they play to an already elated sense of importance is vital.
If they want their 'enemies' to appear 'evil', they will have the Public convinced very soon.
If that doesn't help, they'll concoct a few incidents.... they have in the past, they'll do in the future if they have to.

The British Establishment has treated it's citizens like the proverbial mushroom over the years.
... it's the old saying..., you are what you eat.

Odd, too, that English people don't mind calling themselves 'European'.
Grab didn't make that extra obvious step, in annotating his sense of belonging.

The old habits die hard.

That is the point


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:03 AM

The vast majority of Irish people are fine, its just that bores like Tir Eoghian have such a very Irish way of being boring that it creates needless predjudice against the wider Irish community.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ohh-Aah2
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:05 AM

Or even prejudice, Gods forbid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:06 AM

"...a very Irish way of being boring"

Very good, Ooh Aah2.

What exactly does that mean, now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 02:09 AM

'Needless predjudice', perhaps?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:29 AM

Thanks, Mick - Nice to get the view of someone from across the pond as well. It is just the point I was making. No-one in my extended family or group of friends are anti-Irish. Apart from the odd comments I have seen on here on Mudcat by what I believe to be a tiny minority of people (Including the odd American btw) I have never come across anyone who is particulary anti-Irish. I admit I do know people who are anti everything and everybody not British, including the Irish, but in my mind that makes them generic racists and NOT specificaly anti-Irish.

I still think the statement is unfounded and would like to see some evidence before I even begin to consider it vaguely factual. As I have said before I will accept that there is anti-Irish feeling in Britain. I will just not accept that the 'average Brit' is any more anti-Irish than the average human being.

On the English/British thing again. If the British are anti-Irish but the English are not are we saying that the anti-Irish feelings run higher in Scotland and Wales? ;-)

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:39 AM

Doesn't matter what else 'anti-' they are, Dave. The fact that they also hate everything else doesn't make the situation any easier for the Irish.

"If the British are anti-Irish but the English are not are we saying that the anti-Irish feelings run higher in Scotland and Wales? "

Take a straw poll of those who refer to themselves as British (as opposed to purely 'Scottish' or 'Welsh') in those countries, and see, Dave

But I don't think we're going down that road, just yet


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:45 AM

Amongst the folk community in London and the South-east I have experienced an underlying hatred of Irish. I am Irish but have a london/cockney accent, a lot of people do not realise who I am and inadvertently reveal their true colours. Irish joke are commonplace along with comments such as "thick paddies" "irish bastards" "what do you expect from a mad irish woman". Just last night when discussing the film "Gangs Of New York" one well known kentish folk performer stated "New York was a clean, civilised place when the british had it - it only went downhill when the Irish pigs arrived" this same bloke will often sing irish songs in his set!

There is also an underlying jealousy of the Irish folk tradition and it's recent successful revival. There is a session in Greenwich which actually bans the playing of Irish music, some of the players there have openly claimed that the Irish stole all their best tunes from the english.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM

Let's tackle this from another position..

1. How long did those making the assumptions about the anti irishness of brits, spend living on the UK mainland?

2.Where did you live?

3.What have you based your assumptions on?

It is often those holding the assumptions about another that need to do the homework on prejudice.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:05 AM

I doubt that Oliver Cromwell represented the opinion of most English people.

"When Cromwell came to Ireland long ago,
He didn't shed a drop of blood you know,
And the people started grieving
When they heard that he was leaving
If I knew a bigger lie I'd tell you so."   (The Liar)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM

Woodsie,

I think that the Anti-Irish, "well-known kentish folk performer" should be named - so we can all boycott his gigs!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:46 AM

There has been a kind of institutional contempt among elements of the "Brits" for centuries against the Irish. People like Thomas Carlile put their names to disgraceful essays along such lines.

As Kendall says, it was largely driven by economic concerns, or if I could be more specific, by mass ignorance of the economic realities - ignorance that was readily and easily exploited by a few Brits with political, vested interests.

It is comparable with the racism that has flourished in Britain, America, many other countries, and now Ireland itself. The reason that such selfish attitudes were slower to catch on in Ireland than in Britain or the USA has nothing to do with any kind of Irish moral superiority. It is simply that until recently the ignorant in Ireland saw no risk of being inundated by relatively more disadvanted people against whom they could discriminate, and over whom they could feel themselves to be superior.

All of this miasma of ill-will, from wherever it originates, and wherever it is directed, owes nothing to nationality and everything to the least pleasing aspects of human nature.

To Ard's post, where he speculates about how the Provo campaign may have affected attitudes to the Irish in Britain, I would just add that I know Irish nationalists who lived in Birmingham (as I did) in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where in 1974 the IRA accomplished what was then the biggest mass murder in British history. Any hostility they encountered was more than offset by the concern of others to counteract such prejudice. No doubt there were cases of school bullying, though I didn't hear of it. That cannot be defended, but then schoolkids have an almost unfathomable capacity to torment peers for even the most trivial of reasons - all equally beyond justification.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 23 February 10:24 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.