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Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

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Peace 02 Sep 05 - 07:23 PM
Pogo 02 Sep 05 - 07:26 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM
The Fooles Troupe 02 Sep 05 - 07:36 PM
Don Firth 02 Sep 05 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,G 02 Sep 05 - 07:51 PM
Azizi 02 Sep 05 - 08:00 PM
Cluin 02 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 02 Sep 05 - 08:11 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,G 02 Sep 05 - 08:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM
Peace 02 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM
GUEST,G 02 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM
UncleToad 02 Sep 05 - 09:25 PM
katlaughing 02 Sep 05 - 10:03 PM
Ebbie 02 Sep 05 - 11:00 PM
Mickey191 03 Sep 05 - 12:58 AM
freda underhill 03 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 05 - 06:45 AM
Tam the man 03 Sep 05 - 07:36 AM
The Fooles Troupe 03 Sep 05 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,A Modest Proposal 03 Sep 05 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM
Big Mick 03 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM
Big Mick 03 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM
freda underhill 03 Sep 05 - 09:59 AM
Tam the man 03 Sep 05 - 09:59 AM
Tam the man 03 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM
Tam the man 03 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM
Azizi 03 Sep 05 - 10:12 AM
DMcG 03 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM
Azizi 03 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM
Tam the man 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM
Peter T. 03 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM
katlaughing 03 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM
Azizi 03 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM
Donuel 03 Sep 05 - 11:32 AM
Azizi 03 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM
GUEST 03 Sep 05 - 12:24 PM
Don Firth 03 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,G 03 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM
CarolC 03 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:23 PM

I agree with you Carol. "However, as has been noted, if the State was not prepared to enforce evacuation and back up the order with transport (order folks to put others in their vehicles, leave the family pets, forget ten suitcases of luggage, etc.,), then indeed in preparation for disaster the State has failed."

I was trained for city evacuation back in the time when we thought nuclear bombs were gonna fall. The Canadian military at the time basically would go block to block. If you had transportation, you would be required to load up with people--family first and any remaining room was for whomever a soldier said was getting in that space, family or not. ALL vehicles--private or public--would become the 'property' of the military and subject to use as prescribed by the military. We did NOT ever receive orders that ANY districts, ethnicities or groups be left behind, except for anyone who disagreed. They would be left behind--on a permanent basis.

I DO understand what you are saying, Carol, and I share your disgust and sadness.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Pogo
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:26 PM

*sigh*

do what you can folks...speculating about how much the government was responsible for the disaster isn't going to do those people down there one damn bit of good. If you've been through a hurricane you know what a hideous mess it is before, during and afterwards. If you live in a hurricane-prone area you understand the peculiar mentality that goes with those who have been the veterans of several hurricanes. If you live in a poor area of the south, you know that most likely folks have no means of transportation, no radio or TV to warn them about the hurricane and tend to be extremely clannish, that is they trust family first and are more likely to go to them for help or to stay to weather out a hurricane. So you have to deal with finding people to give the supplies to and you have to navigate an swampy area that is covered with flooded roads, downed trees, live power lines and desperate people who have been reduced to the most primitive means of survival. How big is the population of New Orleans? You have to take those factors into consideration. You also have to consider that other places besides New Orleans have been hit and flooded out and that disaster relief has to go to those people as well.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM

Well, I've been through hurricanes. Several of them, in fact. And I also know what it's like to be too poor to have any transportation of my own (not now, but in the past). And I think if public discussion of what went wrong this time can help anyone at all in the future, then it would be a crime for us to not discuss it.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:36 PM

The Astrodome was designed to seat 40.000 people for a few hours. It was never intended to be capable of sleeping, feeding providing health and toilet facilities for any number for days/weeks.

"and we knew for at least 2 days a category 4 or 5 was heading right for NO (until a last minute slight verge to the east)"

I saw on delayed PBS (thru SBS) that the company who predicted the path of Katrina were proud that it was within 8 miles of the predicted path - they said it would pass close, but miss New Orleans. They are disgusted that the media keep ranting about 'veered at the last minute. They also said that the surge was nowhere near the worst case, cause the path came in at an angle that did not force an even higher flood level, well over the height of the levees.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:49 PM

There is an area about an hour's drive north of Seattle that has been a flood plain since time immemorial. Most of the time, it's a pretty nice area. But regularly, every few years (sometimes with as much as a dozen years in between, but as inevitable as death and taxes), it winds up under water. Developers build nice homes there and sell them to immigrating Californians for some pretty fancy prices. A few years go by and suddenly the residents find themselves treading water. Once the area is cleaned up, what do they do?

Rebuild. Right there. Same place

A few years later—sometimes the following year—it's "Run for the hills!!"

What was that definition of insanity? When one repeats the same action over and over again, each time expecting a different result.

But, of course, some of this is "crazy like a fox." Many of the poor bereft Californians wring out their socks and move someplace else. Then the developers move in, rebuild, and sell the nice new homes to the next batch of immigrants. It's kinda like prostitution:   you sell it. Then a bit later, you sell it again. Then you sell it again. Then again. . . .    

Venice has been having problems lately. During a storm surge recently, St. Mark's Square, often photographed full of pigeons and tourists, found itself under four feet of water. The city fathers are discussing building some kind of sea wall (at a projected cost of several billions of dollars, which tends to give them the hiccups!!). It's not that Venice is sinking, it's that the sea level is slowly rising. Hip-waders have become fashionable in Venice recently.

I've inhabited this planet for some time now, and I don't recall until recently hearing of hurricanes with sustained winds in the 140-150 m.p.h. range. Since the intensity of a hurricane comes from the temperature of the sea over which it is spawned, and what maintains its intensity is that same phenomenon (they quickly lose intensity when they pass over land and can no longer get their "energy fix"), this is a pretty obvious indicate that the seas are getting warmer.

Maybe somebody really ought to reconsider signing the Kyoto Accords.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:51 PM

Carolc, there is just too much in this thread to cover. Can anyone answer as to why the buses to remove people on SATURDAy went unfilled?

The reason so many buses ended up underwater was 1. Nobody would used them on Saturday and 2. poor planning keep them in their low level parking lots rather than on the elevated freeways and their ramps. The Mayor doth protest too much, I think. Can you say "covering his ass by blaming others for the lack of planning by the city?"

The city of New Orleans and The State of LA screwed up. Granted, the Feds did not do much better but this was basically a city/state responsibility.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:00 PM

I'm outraged over Condilezza Rice too.

And I'm not alone. See this dailykos dairy:

Oh NO She Didn't
by shanikka
Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 14:37:15 PDT


No she didn't no she didn't NO SHE DID NOT.

Condoleeza Rice did NOT actually think that pulling out that she was from Alabama actually made up for the fact that here it is, the end of the 5th day of horror in New Orleans for citizens largely comprised of her own people, and she is JUST NOW (at 4:15 Central) showing up on television to talk about the fact that:

shanikka's diary :: ::
a) She was going to talk to the CBC and the NAACP before their public tearing the federal government -- including her -- a new asshole but didn't get around to it until "right around the time they were having their press conference".

b) She was going to get around to accepting all those foreign offers of immediate assistance to help the tens of thousands of her own people dying -- but still hadn't actually because the offers "need" to be "evaluated".

c) She was deeply concerned about what was happening and working all week long on the issue of getting help for the victims when folks have seen her on vacation this time and foreign governments are literally telling the press that they want to help, but can't because they can't get the "go ahead" from State?

(Of course she hasn't yet said that she was going to carry her Black ass down to Alabama, her own state, as soon as it was clear that Mobile taken a hit -- God knows, maybe to check up on her own family? -- but somehow her flight accidentally landed her in New York City on a vacation instead).

This woman is SHAMEFUL. She shames her own people. How DARE she wrap herself in the mantle of an Alabama past that she's been running from like the wind on all fronts after she thought it was more important to be in New York shopping and on Broadway than to be out there publicly doing her job and sicced her security dogs on a woman who called her out on it? How dare she deliberately side step the blunt questions put to her today about the fact that the vast majority of the victims are Black and whether there was "even a kernel of truth" that the emergency response might have been more quick had this not been the case (to her credit, she didn't actually come out and lie and say "No"; but that may have been because she knows she has to run into Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, Maxine Waters, Carolyn Kirkpatrick in the bathroom sometime.) How dare she show up even 1/2 day after her Boy and yet make statements about how much she cared?

Lord have mercy. The only good thing that came out of Condi's press conference is that it appears that she finally found somebody Black to do her hair correctly.

For comments on this diary click: Oh No She Didn't - Condi Rice


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM

He really is a pretty crappy Commander-in-Chief, isn't he? It's really unfortunate that two of the biggest catastrophes to hit American soil in U.S. history happened during his tenure in the Oval Office.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:06 PM

Hurricane, disaster, hair, shoes: DECISIONS, DECISIONS, DECISIONS . . . .


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:11 PM

And we need to keep in mind that we are only halfway through this hurricane season, which has been projected to be one of the most severe in history. So whatever we can learn from Katrina, we just might need to put to use next week, the week after, or a month down the road. And I DO live in a hurricane prone area, as well as a tornado prone one, so this concerns me, too.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

He is only nominally the Commander-in-Chief. He's a really stupid man, very indecisive and very ineffective. He has been all his life. WHY is that a surprise to people NOW? No point getting mad at Bush. Get mad at the dumb f**** who voted for him. And maybe the Governors of those states that got hit and were NOT prepared deserve to have their leadership abilities called into question. Keriste: keep voting for mediocre politicians just because they have money and this is what happens. Don't blame leaders who have no leadership skills. The ability to lead does NOT come when ya win the election. Bush NEVER had it, doesn't have it, and likely never WILL have it. "When a dog pisses on a fire hydrant it is NOT committing an act of vandalism. It is simply being a dog."


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:20 PM

Ah, Peace, the type of prose that is so meaningful.

Move over Rover, it is time for Peace to have a turn.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM

I like that one, Peace. It conveys a highly relevant meaning very cogently.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM

Thank you, GUEST, G.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM

McG of H: Good to see you (read you) again.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

Yes McGrath, it certainly does - if one is a fire hydrant.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM

regional head of FEMA (S.E. area, I believe...he was in Atlanta) was being interviewed...was asked directly, "what happened? Why was it (the aid) all so slow?"

He replied (paraphrased) "Yes, it WAS slow. The closest answer I can give is that it was 'command & control' issues. People were having meetings, trying to decode who was to do what and who had the authority to do what! FEMA is now under the Dept. of Homeland Security. We have people in FEMA who know how to do things, but they were not allowed to start without permission"

I'll try to find the precise quotes....


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: UncleToad
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:25 PM

During his 'visit' today in NO, dubya actually said to the effect...
"You PEOPLE down here have to understand, things are being done" then the clueless f**k had the nerve to say to folks up to their asses in water "Well, I'm gonna fly outta here now but don't think that I will forget about you." At least he didn't saunter off the plane carrying his dog. AND he sneaked in by a secret route. Could it be that dubya is afeared? Pray for the folks, miracles do happen.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 10:03 PM

IMO, John Edwards has made some important points in the following:

"During the campaign of 2004, I spoke often of the two Americas: the America of the privileged and the wealthy, and the America of those who lived from paycheck to paycheck. I spoke of the difference in the schools, the difference in the loan rates, the difference in opportunity. All of that pales today. Today - and for many days and weeks and months to follow - we see a harsher example of two Americas. We see the poor and working class of New Orleans who don't own a car and couldn't evacuate to hotels or families far from the target of Katrina. We see the suffering of families who lived from paycheck to paycheck and who followed the advice of officials and went to shelters at the Civic Center or the Superdome or stayed home to protect their possessions.

"Now every single resident of New Orleans, regardless of their wealth or status, will have terrible losses and life-altering experiences. Every single resident will know and care about someone who was lost to this hurricane. But some, ranging from the very poorest to the working class unable to accumulate a cushion of assets to rely upon on a very, very rainy day, will suffer the most because they simply didn't have the means to evacuate. They suffered the most from Katrina because they always suffer the most.

"These are Americans some of whom who left everything they possessed behind in order to save those they loved. These are Americans huddled with their children or pushing a wheelchair between rows of those too beaten or weak to stand. In this moment, we have to remember they are part of us, Americans who love their country and are part of our national community. In this moment, it is hard because our hair is clean and our clothes are washed and our eyes are not glazed with hopelessness. But these are our brothers and sisters, and we have to remember this not just for them, but for us. We must finally recognize that when any of us suffer, we are all weaker; it affects us all.

"Commentators on television have expressed surprise, saying they think that most people didn't know there was such poverty in America. Thirty-seven million Americans live in poverty, most of them are the working poor, but it is clear that they have been invisible. But if these commentators are right, this tragedy can have a great influence, if we listen to its message.

"The people most devastated have always lived on a razor blade, afraid of any setback, any illness, any job loss that could disrupt the fragile balance they achieved paycheck to paycheck. They didn't leave New Orleans because they couldn't leave. Some didn't leave their homes because they wanted to protect the hard-won possessions that made their lives a little easier.

"The government released new poverty statistics this week. The number of Americans living in poverty rose again last year. Thirteen million children -- nearly one in every five -- lives in poverty. Close to 25 percent of all African Americans live in poverty. Twenty-three percent of the population in New Orleans lives in poverty. Those are chilling numbers. Because of Katrina, we have now seen many of the faces behind those numbers.

"Poverty exists everywhere in America. It is in Detroit and El Paso. It is in Omaha, Nebraska and Stockton, California. It is in rural towns like Chillicothe, Ohio and Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Nearly half of the children in Detroit, Atlanta and Long Beach, California live in poverty. It doesn't have to be this way. We can begin embracing policies that offer opportunity, reward responsibility, and assume the dignity of each American.

"There are immediate needs in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast, and the first priority is meeting those, but after that, we need to think about the American community, about the one America we think we are, the one we talk about. We need people to feel more than sympathy with the victims, we need them to feel empathy with our national community that includes the poor. We have missed opportunities to make certain that all Americans would be more than huddled masses. We have been too slow to act in the face in the misery of our brothers and sisters. This is an ugly and horrifying wake-up call to America. Let us pray we answer this call. Now is the time to act.

- John"


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:00 PM

One crying woman told a reporter: This is not rich people. This is not poor people. This is people.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Mickey191
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:58 AM

Bush is a moron. He is a dangerous moron because of his position. He is a heartless, unfeeling piece of work who said that looters must be dealt with. Questioned further-if the person took food ? "They should all be dealt with." The bastard has never been hungry in his life. It's as someone said in an earlier post-everything is black or white. Wonder what he'd do with the young kid who "borrowed" a bus and probably saved some lives?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

Compare the Bush government's response to Hurrican Katrina to the Australian govt's response to Cyclone Tracy, which destroyed Darwin on Christmas day 1974.

The first official responses to the cyclone were almost certainly those of the NT Police. During the day on 24 December emergency preparations were made at Darwin and Casuarina police stations. Tools and first aid materials were collected, and the Commissioner warned officers on duty that their afternoon shifts might be extended.

Toward midnight the police received telephoned reports of damage. Officers were sent to scenes of road blockages and fallen power lines. Mobile patrols warned people to take shelter. By midnight 150 non-police were sheltering at police stations. At 1 AM all call outs ceased, except where rescues to save lives were needed. Three such rescues were made.

At daylight mobile patrols resumed; road clearance was attempted; medical aid was found for the injured; and mortuaries were set up. Patrols estimated that 90% of all Darwin buildings were damaged or destroyed, and that the destruction was complete in parts of the northern suburbs. At 8 AM the Commissioner called a meeting at which police responses were allocated. An approach was made to school authorities for formal permission to use schools as emergency centres. Permission to deal with bodies was obtained from the coroner. Morgues were set up at police stations. Officers co-ordinated the establishment of cooking, hygiene, first aid, and recording facilities at the school emergency centres. Searches for dead and injured in the worst hit areas were begun.

During Christmas morning several public service, community, and emergency service leaders made their way to police headquarters. As a result, the Commissioner convened a "leadership" meeting at 2 PM. It was agreed to evaluate damage and to meet again at 6 PM. The second meeting agreed "Darwin had, for the time being, ceased to exist as a city", and that damage was so serious that evacuation (of unspecified extent) would be necessary.

Within two days about 10,000 people had left, about half by road and half by air. The government promised full reimbursement of personal costs consequent on evacuation. In the end 25,628 people were evacuated by air, and 7,234 left by road. By 31 December 1974 only 10,638 people remained in Darwin. (Darwin previously was a town of 48,000 people..)


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 06:45 AM

Canada sending four ships to Louisiana: Graham
CTV.ca News Staff

Defence Minister Bill Graham has announced that Ottawa is sending three Canadian warships and a coast guard vessel packed with relief supplies to the hurricane-ravaged U.S. Gulf Coast.

Graham said the destroyer, HMCS Athabaskan, and two frigates, HMCS Ville de Quebec and HMCS Toronto, are being readied for deployment and should leave Halifax in three or four days. They will be accompanied by the CCGS Sir William Alexander.

It will take another three to four days before the ships arrive in the Gulf of Mexico.

Organizers of the mission, dubbed Operation Union, said the ships are expected to provide humanitarian aid, along with divers, and engineering expertise for reconstruction.

As well, three Sea King helicopters will be sent to ferry personnel into the devastated areas.

Commodore Dean McFadden, who will command the deployment, said they were discussing with their American counterparts what their role will be during the expected month-long mission.

He thought their duties will involve reconstruction, health care and humanitarian aid.

"We will have the capacity to move people. We'll have the capacity to bring medical supplies and fuel capabilities,'' McFadden said as he stood on the dock next to destroyer HMCS Athabaskan, the command and control ship for the mission.

"The specific jobs we're going to do, I'll wait until the Americans tell us what help they need.''

Earlier, Prime Minister Paul Martin told reporters in Saskatoon that "whatever aid is required [Canada] will provide it."

The prime minister rejected the suggestion that Canada has been slow to react to the growing crisis.

"We're not waiting to be asked for help," Martin told reporters at a pancake breakfast commemorating Saskatchewan's centennial celebration.

"We're waiting to be told how our aid can best be directed.

"The Americans have said to us, 'Listen we're not in a position to take this. We have to set up coordinating bodies.' Once they are set up, we will be able to do it. But for us just to land there in the midst of a lot of chaos really wouldn't do anybody any good."

Ottawa is also responding on another front.

Martin announced Friday that Canada will increase oil exports as requested by the International Energy Agency.

"Our goal will be to help stabilize the existing situation but not in any way that will impose any diminishing supply for Canadians," Martin said.

If the other 26 member countries do the same they will help stabilize the world market in the wake of the storm, which badly damaged the U.S. Gulf Coast oil supply.

Martin said he had consulted with the province and oil companies before making his decision.

He said the aid effort won't result in a shortage in Canada.

Canadian drivers have been hammered at the gas pumps in recent days due to energy price spikes cause by the hurricane.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:36 AM

I wonder if Bush and friends would of being so slow if it was a city that the majorty was white.

Money comes first for Bush, people come last, However that's just my views

Tam


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 07:55 AM

It seems that The Speaker (US) has mumbled something about whether it would be economical to rebuild NO. He has been pilloried.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,A Modest Proposal
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 08:05 AM

I suggest Dubya does another press briefing: "I'm moving into the New Orleans Conference Centre to live alongside everyone there and - short of another National Emergency - I'm not leaving until everyone in N.O. has been taken to safe lodgings elsewhere with proper food and water. I'm taking sufficient comms facilities to give orders as needed and for any decisions that are required. And I expect the US and world press to watch and see I am living in the same conditions as everyone else."

Now, that might move things along a little. But I think it an unlikely scene, don't you?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:29 AM

Extrapolated from an apparent typo in freda underhill's post of 01-Sep-05 6:52pm ... the reign of Bush should be more aptly named, "The Bush Diminshtration" ... (thanks freda)

.......and kat suggests that giving Bush enough rope will allow him to hang himself. He is well into a second and final term in office. The scary thing about Bush right now is that he does not need to answer to the American people for any of his actions. At this point, there's no motivation for concessions or patronization in order to curry votes for another term in office. I'm not sure he even cares about leaving a legitimate legacy for his party so that a Republican candidate will have a chance at the Presidency in 2008. All that he has on his agenda is returning favors to the big corporations who got him elected in the first place, to prepare a cushy transition into "private life" for himself.

Ebbie, expect to see an oil well in your back yard.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM

It is gratifying to know that people are outraged and can see this rube for what he is. But I would prefer that you get the underlying difference between the haves and the havenots, hence those in power in the Republican Party. To illustrate, let me share a story that actually happened:

I was lobbying on behalf of my International Union in Washington, DC. I had a number of rank and file union members with me. We were visiting with a Congressman from Michigan, and the leader of his caucus. The issue we were lobbying on had to do with the Occupational Safety and Health Act (known in the States as "OSHA"). It seems that the Repubs wanted to leave the law intact but take out the enforcement powers rendering it useless. When they saw this group of constituents being led by a dumb union organizer, they made a play. They waxed eloquent and persuasively about how the law was restrictive, how it cost jobs, and how we had to be flexible in order to compete in todays environment. I waited patiently as they made the pitch to try and take my members from me. When they were done (and you should have seen the smug expressions on their faces), they looked at me as if expecting a response, and absolutely confidant that I would appear foolish in it. I asked the following. "Congressmen, since the inception of enforcement powers back in the 60's, in a very short order the mortality/morbidity rates in the workplace went down immediately. There is a corresponding drop/increase every time one modifies these enforcement power. There is no doubt, it is undeniable, that if you take the enforcement out of OSHA, there will be a rise in workplace deaths and injuries. And these are the folks who will hold the heads together, or attempt to staunch the bleeding, or pack the severed limb in ice .... these are the folks who will try and comfort the relatives. So I have a question for you good Congressmen. If we know with a certainty that taking the enforcement powers out of OSHA will increase the death rates, how can you support anything that will hurt or kill even one worker? Isn't the goal to reduce the numbers of injured? Or is there an acceptable number of deaths to justify increased profits?"

These two (one whose name you would know very well) were very upset. The rather famous one said I was a "cocky sonofb..." and he resented my suggesting that he would be responsible for dead workers. I pointed out to him that was the practical meaning of his actions. One of my proudest moments.

The real relevance to the current topic is that those driven by the bottom line don't see the faces. When they make decisions, they don't think in terms of human life and suffering. It is why Bush is so dumbfounded when he visits and this woman doesn't fawn, she doesn't talk nice, she just wants clothes. He wants to talk in philosophical terms and be disconnected from the reality, and she wants to stay warm and stay alive. He can't relate, because he has never been anywhere close to this.

This is a condition of all politicians to some degree, but the rich conservatives are most guilty. They think in terms of net gains to their own interests, and never see the human suffering. When a few folks die so they can pursue their agenda, that is acceptable loss. They need to take their asses down to Louisiana and explain that to the families that are suffering.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM

It was a NATURAL disaster!! Doesn't matter who is running the show at whatever level. They all failed, from the cops, to the White House!! Who could have done anything better?? Or different?? Certainly no one on this forum could have. No one blamed the politicos for the tsunami. Why do we blame them now?? Helluva time to be grinding axes


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM

You are an idiot, or a blatant sycophant. One needs to invest about 30 seconds to find all the relevant data that shows this administration cut funding for projects that would have helped. No one is saying he could have stopped the typhoon. But he could have left FEMA intact so that it continued to operate like it did during various man made and natural emergencies. It was efficient and quick to respond. It had a clear chain of command and responsibilities. But when shrub, under the guise of efficient use of resources, created Homeland Security, he destroyed that. How many deaths for that blunder? Especially when Homeland Security was really a front to further political aims? Shall we talk about the levee fortifying projects that were stopped midstream to fund the war?

I could go on and on.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:59 AM

Published on Friday, September 2, 2005 by the New York Times
A Can't-Do Government by Paul Krugman

excerpts..
Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

First question: Why have aid and security taken so long to arrive? Katrina hit five days ago - and it was already clear by last Friday that Katrina could do immense damage along the Gulf Coast. Yet the response you'd expect from an advanced country never happened. Thousands of Americans are dead or dying, not because they refused to evacuate, but because they were too poor or too sick to get out without help - and help wasn't provided. Many have yet to receive any help at all.

Even military resources in the right place weren't ordered into action. "On Wednesday," said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss., "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!"

Maybe administration officials believed that the local National Guard could keep order and deliver relief. But many members of the National Guard and much of its equipment - including high-water vehicles - are in Iraq. "The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," a Louisiana Guard officer told reporters several weeks ago.

Second question: Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending.

Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA's effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."

I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying.

© 2005 New York Times


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:59 AM

what was bush doing after this thing happened, excepting a guitar from a country singer, so much for people's lives eh!


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM

And another thing, he was that bloody quick to send in troops into Iraq.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM

I could go on but then I'll become a bore


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:12 AM

GUEST Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM. I do blame the administration for its piss poor level of preparedness for the evacuation of people without their own vehicles {the poor & tourists}. I blame Bush for cutting monies for New Orleans levees and for gutting FEMA and putting his incompetent cronies in charge and for playing golf and trying to play the guitar while the Hurricane gathered strength and hit the US Gulf states and for continuing his schedule of scripted photo-ops including birthday cake and laughs as though the hurrican was no big deal. I blame so called "President" Bush's lack of leadership though it comes as no surprise. I blame so called "Secretary of State" Condolezza Rice who [like Bush] continued on her vacation and played tennis, took in a Broadway play, and purchased expensive shoes while people died in New Orleans, Mississippi, and Alabama [her home state]. And I blame so called "Vice President" Dick Cheney for remaining on vacation and never uttering "a mumblin word" about this American tragedy.

Alot of things could have been done better. It was just a matter of time before a Level 4 or 5 hurricane hit New Orleans and the US Gulf states. It's not like no one had ever warned the federal government about this and talked about what needed to be done. But Bush decided that giving tax breaks to the wealthy and fighting Iraqis because of one reason or the other [I think its their oil] was more important.

And we see the result of those decisions today-the loss of life and culture in New Orleans.

Words can not express the depths of my sorrow and anger at this administration.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM

Amen to that, Mick.

Who could have done anything better?? Or different?? .
Well here's one possibility of something Bush could have done 'different'. He hears somehow - briefings, on the news, I don't care - that evacuation of New Orleans has been ordered. He picks up the telephone, phones the major and requests that within an hour there is with a fax on his desk outlining what federal resources the mayor needs to assist the evacuation and an estimate of what proportion of people are likely to remain behind. He also asks for a two-hourly progress report from then on. Then he puts the phone down and contacts some suitable general and asks them to put in train plans for feeding and evacuation for a substantial proportion of the population should the worst happen - more accurate estimates to be provided within a few hours and revised as more information becomes available. "Understand, general, that this may not be required at all, but we have to be ready to go if necessary." Once again, the general is instructed to provide frequent updates of how the plans are shaping up. Then he begins a similar process of getting congress and the senate ready to approve any actions that may become necessary, once again ensuring everyone is fully aware that it is possible no action may be needed in the end.

Or shall I just simplify all of that to 'show leadership'?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

And another thing- because I feel so strongly about it just in case folks in this simulated discussion circle may not journey over to the "White woman needed" thread, I'm repeating what I "said" there because it speaks to Guest's question about what could have been done differently [and why it wasn't]:

"Back in 1903 African American writer, historian, sociologist, and civil rights activist W.E.B Du Bois said that "the problem of the twentieth Century is the problem of the color line."

In my opinion, one of the lessons of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is in the 21st century the USA still has a racial problem, but poverty + race tromps color.

I know of African Americans from New Orleans who have money and cars. These Black people were able to evacuate New Orleans and did so.

I wondered about the Black university students and faculty in New Orleans and appreciate GUEST's [03 Sep 05 - 07:26 AM] post that the [presumably on-campus] students of Xavier were evacuated. I agree with Guest that the reasons why these Black people were evacuated and not some others was that "they have middle and upper class advocates outside the region, and the students and staff at the universities aren't perceived as 'dangerous and desperate'"...and
"the only difference between the people there and the people blocks away from them was class. Not race, class."

But the problem with economic class is that one can't always tell which class a person is by looking. Americans [particularly those of us who live in geographic regions where there are significant numbers of people of color] are unconsciously socialized to determine a person's race [and ethnicity in the case of Latinos] by using the visual clues of skin color, hair texture, and physical features. Of course, there are times when we "guess wrong" [for instance, in the case of very light skinned African Americans who can "pass for White" because they have "White" hair texture and "White" physical features] because they either have one birth parent who is White or because their birth families have more White ancestry than Black. Though it is a widely repeated cultural belief among African Americans that we can "always tell" a Black person who is "passing" {either purposely doing so temporarily or permanently or who just looks like he or she is White} that is not always the case.

My point is that if middle class Black people are removed from their {our} material props [nice clothes, cars, jewlery, hair care etc] they {we} can't be distinguished from poor Black people. There are contemporary stories about how prominent Black people were unable to get taxis in New York City or were pulled over by state troopers while driving expensive cars. In effect given certain circumstances we are vulnerable to the same racist bulls**** as poor African Americans and other poor people of color.

And the beat goes on from century to century until America learns to practice what it preaches [equality; freedom; equal treatment under the law; equal access to governmental, health care, and support services etc] or until America is no more.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Tam the man
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

I agree with Mick


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

Apart from all this, can anyone answer me a historic question? Given the geography of the situation in New Orleans, why did they not build the city to be like Venice, a canal city (pre-flooded, if you like)?   Admittedly Venice is now sinking for other reasons, but it has weathered a variety of storms over many centuries. Given that it is on a delta, and at the mouth of a big river (like the Po), this would seem to be an obvious way to build.   Did it start that way, and was the city paved over at some point in the process? I know about the draining of the wetlands around it and upstream.

Perhaps they should rebuild New Orleans that way -- a city on the water, rather than going through all that dam building process. Just curious.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM

Mick, once again, I am SO proud to claim you as a friend. Goodonya, darlin'...keep holding their feet to the fire...we will do all we can to support you.

Also, {{{{Azizi}}}}}I feel the same outrage, it's been that way for all of the shrub's administration (that's a misnomer!) only more so since this disaster. My son-in-law is one of those whom police in CT have "assumed" to be poor AND criminal because of the colour of his skin.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

Thanks for the hug, kat.

I needed that.

I'm sending positive vibrations back to you.

And thanks, Mick too for all you do to make a world a better place for all.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 11:32 AM

Azizi, Peace   PLEASE READ:

Regarding Bush's latest photo-op:
"The Clueless-In-Chief
Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 13:39:59 PDT................

By freak accident I watched this specific photo op live. Someone had left their microphone open in the midst of the Bush handlers / choreographers.

This is what I heard from the un calibrated microphone:

"Ok we need a black girl...good now Mr. President, put your arm around the girl...good, now reassure her and walk with her away from the cameras..."

Late that night CNN aired the edited footage of those moments with a voice over by a moderator saying "President Bush toured the diaster area reassuring the residents that help has arrived."

...........


I am outraged by the staged fraud of these tours and briefings by FEMA and Homeland Security.

I am outraged that Chertoff would not admit to any of the reported horrible incidents and negligence supported by videotape..."I will not respond to any allegations unsupported by official Homeland Security reports.

I am outraged that Bush said on CNN " I AM SATISFIED WITH OUR RESCUE OPERATIONS, OUR RESPONSE NEEDS MORE WORK. (CNN only repeats the last half of this remark)

I am outraged that Terry Schivo got George out of bed to take a midnight flight to Washington but Katrina only made him cut his 5 week vaction short by 2 days after sitting in Crawford for 4 days after the storm hit.

I am outraged that FEMA and Homeland Security have spent their fortunes to stem; demonstrations, public dissent and spy on people rather than protecting people from national disasters.

I am outraged that Laura Bush said of the disaster "This is just the way it is"
In the South the phrase "This is just the way it is" and "Thats just the way they are" is nearly always used as the unapologetic explaination for racism.

I am outraged by the New Orleans meteorologist on CNN for saying " We kept the lights on our truck burning all night long to keep the animals* at bay. One guy offered us $30 for a gallon of gas. We were scared they might steal our gas."

*animals is the code word for niggers.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

I am absolutely not surprised at Bush taking advantage of people's suffering to try to boost his sagging poll numbers. And regretably, it might work.

But it's good to know that there are people here at Mudcat and elsewhere who see through this administrations bulls*** and either weren't infected by the racism and classism that is so devastating to our nation or have taken steps to eradicate or minimize that racism.

I have heard people say that race doesn't matter to them but unfortunately it has always mattered to me. I know that I have favored [and to a degree still do] favor Black people over non-Black people. And I confess that there have been times when I doubted that White people cared about us [African Americans].

But any in-depth reading of history reveals that there have always been White people who have risked their lives to help Black people.

That has happened and is happening now in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Thank you to those who are helping others regardless of their race & economic class. Thanks to Donuel and others here at Mudcat for caring and demonstrating that race doesn't matter to them.

Maybe in time a person's race won't have any positive or negative valuation in the United States as [maybe] is the case elsewhere.

Where there is life there is hope.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 12:24 PM

Donuel, I have access to recorded broadcasts of the networks. Please verify that was heard on CNN and I will pull it up.

02 SEP 05 @ 11:39:59 PDT?


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Compassionate conservative, eh? I wonder who all that compassion is reserved for. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

Mick, show me, please, where to find the information that shows where the work being done on the levees involved fortification.

Increasing the height was the ONLY work planned and would possibly have added to the problem if it had been completed.

Once again, just one little bit of validation as to the work being done that would backup your statements and those of others.

PLEASE, just one little bit of fact involving fortification.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM

There's a term that gets thrown around a bit these days - "failed states". Countries which are dirt poor, and whose whole sytem of running things have pretty well collapsed.

"Failed states can no longer perform basic functions such as education, security, or governance, usually due to fractious violence or extreme poverty."

It strikes me looking at what's been going on this last week is that a new category is needed - "wealthy failed states"...


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

Good points, Azizi. Their being Black should only matter insofar as cultural and racial diversity being a big part of what makes people and societies vibrant and interesting. In all other respects the only thing that should matter is that they are people. We still have a very long way to go.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:26 PM

PLEASE, just one little bit of fact involving fortification.

Ok, here's three little bits for you. The plans submitted would not have been good enough to prevent this tragedy. They would have been good enough to protect the city from more cat 3 storms than the existing fortifications. They were rejected, knowing the citizens would be at increased risk, to save money.


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Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM

Is anybody going to be put on trial or impeached for this?


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