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BS: Genocide in New Orleans

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katlaughing 08 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 05 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Sep 05 - 09:11 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Eric 08 Sep 05 - 12:35 AM
CarolC 07 Sep 05 - 01:05 PM
Little Hawk 07 Sep 05 - 11:40 AM
Peace 07 Sep 05 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,G 07 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Larry K 07 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM
John Hardly 07 Sep 05 - 09:12 AM
Jeri 07 Sep 05 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 07 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Jon 07 Sep 05 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Jon 07 Sep 05 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Napalm 07 Sep 05 - 05:55 AM
mooman 07 Sep 05 - 04:27 AM
Wolfgang 07 Sep 05 - 03:53 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM
katlaughing 07 Sep 05 - 02:15 AM
Ebbie 07 Sep 05 - 01:58 AM
kirstenanderberg 07 Sep 05 - 01:44 AM
dianavan 07 Sep 05 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,Napalm 06 Sep 05 - 10:07 PM
Peace 06 Sep 05 - 06:34 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM
John Hardly 06 Sep 05 - 06:27 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 05:12 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 05:08 PM
Ebbie 06 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Sep 05 - 05:00 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 05 - 04:59 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 06 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 06 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM
John Hardly 06 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 06 Sep 05 - 02:50 PM
Peace 06 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Just Passing Through 06 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM
Azizi 06 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,Larry K 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM
Donuel 06 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

LH, you've been spot on all week until you wrote this, imo: Where a racial group is poor, that racial group WILL be looked down upon...not because of their race, but because they ARE poor.

In my experience, being poor AND racial identity will be looked down upon and if the poor are non-white, even more so. As has been said many times, one cannot change the colour of their skin. If a poor white person elevates themselves somehow, other people will percieve them differently and no longer look down on them. If a poor black, native american, asian, etc. does the same, they can and will be looked down upon no matter their improved financial status. This country still has an innate racism...it is changing very, very slowly.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:39 AM

If that's the case, then New Orleans would be just like most other North American cities, wouldn't it? That is a result of longterm historical/cultural patterns that go back to when blacks were first brought into this continent as slaves. Those patterns have repeated themselves and evolved slowly over time, to the point where blacks are clearly better off now, but still not nearly as well off as whites. The average Native American (Indian) is also "more likely to be in the poorest bracket" than the average white American...for rather similar reasons.

Is that evidence of racism? Or is it evidence that things change slowly in society? Or is it a bit of both? Where a racial group is poor, that racial group WILL be looked down upon...not because of their race, but because they ARE poor.

Women also still have less power, relatively speaking, than men...although they have plenty of legal rights.

All this is so because people change their cultural ideas and behaviours very slowly, and old social patterns hang on long after new ideas have arisen to challenge them. Also...children who are born into conditions of poverty have a hard time breaking free of those conditions and leaving them behind. People have a tendency to repeat what they are accustomed to. (and none of that has anything to do with innate racial or gender tendencies)


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 09:11 AM

People don't take into account that New Orleans was at least 65% black so it's no surprise that you see more blacks on TV that are waiting for help, it's a statistical fact.

Yes, but I seemed to be seeing more like 95% black. This leads me to think that in NO, if you are black, you are rather more likely to be in the poorest bracket than if you are white.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM

One of the clips I saw had the reporter mentioning that although he had seen both white and black 'helping themselves' the temporary jail for looters only had blacks in it - which was being protested loudly by one guy saying that he had a family to feed.

The last missing Aussie has been found - he was arrested for being in a bar fight the night before Katrina hit, and was 'lost' among the prisoners transferred several times around the place. he was never allowed his 'one call'. And Bush/Howard are trying to convince us that the Aussie in Gitmo will get a fair trial - yeah, right, like just before the hanging...


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Eric
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:35 AM

I feel VERY VERY twisted on this issue. I agree that it's not a race issue it is a money issue. People don't take into account that New Orleans was at least 65% black so it's no surprise that you see more blacks on TV that are waiting for help, it's a statistical fact. Then the media makes it sound like groups of black people are going around shooting at cops, which is true, but somehow it has been twisted that "White Cops" are being ordered to shoot "black looters". Poeple are trying so hard to make it a racial issue and it is not because more than half of the New Orleans Police Department is Black including the Chief of Police. What really pissed me off is when I heard of a Police Officer having a full clip put in his face by a looter and when I saw a video of Police Officers on a rooftop ducking down completely scared to death while being fired at for no reason other than the fact that they are cops. Or the groups of Gangsters walking around the Superdome with guns, where several cold blooded murders have been reported from clashing gang members and things of that nature. I am not completely ruling out racism by some people int his disaster but for the most part nobody is purposely going aroudn and helpng white people over black people.

   The bottomline is it's the same issue that has been going on in America for years. STEREOTYPES. It is not "black looters" that are causing problems. It is the "THUGS" that just so happen to mostly be black which is a whole issue in itself that I am not going to elaborate on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:05 PM

The problem with trying to blame everything on Blanco is that it doesn't take into consideration all of the people outside of Louisana who are blaming FEMA for not only not helping, but for actively sabotaging their efforts to save people. You just can't pin this one on the governor of Louisiana, because FEMA behaved criminally outside of Louisana as well.

But the efforts to make Blanco the scapegoat for Bush's failed policies does show the true intent behind the people who do this. The true intent is to get a Democrat governor out of office at the expense of the lives of a hell of a lot of innocent people. That tells you everything you need to know about such people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:40 AM

That is correct. Money is at the heart of the issue. For O.J. Simpson, it was a big advantage to be black! Why? He was rich and famous and could afford to hire the best lawyers and play legal games with phony "race" issues, that's why.

Money calls the shot as to who lives, who dies, and who gets away with murder in this World. The only reason blacks and hispanics are discriminated against, ultimately, is that they are (on average)quite a bit poorer than the middle class people in North America. Poor white people are also discriminated against. Poverty is not popular. It does not command respect in high places. If you ARE poor, and it's obvious, you have several strikes against you right from the getgo.

Try it, and see. Give away all your money and your nice clothes and possessions. Wear some old castoff rags. Go and live on the street. See what happens. The people who used to say, "Hi, how's it going?" will mostly now either find you invisible...or they will cross the street to avoid you. (with a few exceptions)

You know why? They're scared of you. (whether or not they are conscious of that) Rich people have always been scared of poor people. Guess why. Poverty is unjust, that's why. People don't react well to gross inequality of opportunity at the point of birth into this World and thereafter. Some get angry. Some get desperate. Some get dangerous. Some just make you feel guilty that you have more than them, because you don't know what to do about it.

You can sublimate it all, and say, "Well, they were just lazy. Anyone can grow up to be President in this country." Yeah, right! Now there's a fantasy for you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 10:15 AM

Race has nowt to do with the abandonment/lack of intervention in the south. It has to do with MONEY. Always has; always will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,G
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM

John Hardly and Larry K - well put and truthful but it wont play here.
I don't understand the hatred for GWB. I am not a 100% supporter of his, Immigration, and spending have no control.

I have had, maybe, 10 converstions with several friends in the South, 2 from NOLA, and they mirror what you two are saying.

When so many here get their info from the Daily Kos, Moveon.org, Buzzflash, etc., what do we expect. While I am a semi conservative, two of the 4 newspapers I scan early in the morning are the NY Yimes and the Washington Post. Wall St. Journal and Nation review also. I have heard it referred to as 'Balance'. When people only quote the "daily kos", what are we to expect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM

The Mayor and Governor were grossly incompetent and should be held responsible by the votes of Louisiana.   To say they did not have the resources to evacuate the city is simply not true.

The evacuation plan clearly called for the use of busses and public transportation to evacuate the poor and homeless from the city.   The mayor never used these buses nor did he order overtime for the drivers of these buses.   He clearly failed the city.

You can see pictures of 200 public buses under water as they were left in low lying grounds and never used.   How many thousands of people could have bene saved with those buses. The mayor chose to let people walk to the silverdome where he did not provide water, food, or security.   Resources were available, but never used.

The governor refused to let the national guard into the city before the hurricane.   This was her decision to make and she blew it. After the flooding, the national guard couldn't get into the city.   They could have been there before the flooding and saved thousands of lives.    Another horrible decision by Blanco.

Nevertheless, mudcatters will blame Bush for these deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 09:12 AM

"Blanco ask for Federal aid back on August 27, 2005."

She did not order the National Guard in -- a responsibility that is hers alone. The president, by law, cannot order the National Guard in without a Governor's order -- unless it is an insurrection. This was not an insurrection. Even the mayor of NO acknowledges her hesitation to do so at the critical point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 08:47 AM

I heard the Mayor of New Orleans (who appears to be African American) say what I interpreted as: poor people in this city are mostly black. If they were mostly white, they'd be being ignored too, but nobody would ask if it was because they were white.

I still think it's a class issue. I think trying to make it out as a race issue is devisive and pretty much tells poor white people "You don't have to get involved; you don't have to be concerned. This would never happen to YOU."


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM

I suppose the most serious question of all is "How real is the American Dream"? Is it a dream only some can take part in?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:58 AM

I have also on BBC news interviews seen black victims who have not felt the matter racist.

My own opinion (and I am white) is that the reasons for the delay were incompetence, stupidity, negligence, etc. but I don't (at least as yet) believe racism was the reason for the delay. That is not to say that I don't believe there are issues in all this that do involve racism. The underlying social conditions should raise very serious questions, and I suspect questions not just confined to NO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:48 AM

Only Whites Claim Katrina's Poor Response is NOT Racist

Not that I have any time for or trusr of the woman, I saw C Rice on TV saying it was not racist and I don't believe she is white.


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Subject: GENOCIDE!
From: GUEST,Napalm
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 05:55 AM

I'm not sure the Webster's definition is the interpetation you would want to be pushing. I'm sure you already know this (but others may not),by Article II of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide and the provisions of Articles 6 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court of 1998, it is debateable that Bush may be complicit in violation of Article II (c): Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; further defined:

"includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group's physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts."

Let's define victims of New Orleans as a racial group.

However, "The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. "Intentional" means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group."

"Systematic pattern of coordinated acts" is debateable. As you have seen yourself, it all depends on who and where you ask.

Also, since it seems to be the soup du'jour to announce one's race here, it may comfort many to know that I am not white nor black.

"When they started sending people in, they kept sending me assessment teams. Assessment teams! 'Listen, I don't need a goddamn assessment team. I need food, medical supplies, water for 2 million people, and I've got to feed them twice a day. Get the shit in here. We'll sort out the distribution.' "

General Romeo Dallaire, commenting on the genocide in Rwanda.

"We wanted soldiers, helicopters, food and water,they wanted to negotiate an organizational chart."

Denise Bottcher, press secretary for Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco of Louisiana.

Creepy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV
From: mooman
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 04:27 AM

This was posted to the "One Woman's Protest" thread which got deleted so I'm posting it instead to this thread which is still active.

Peace,

moo
__________________

Dear Kirsten,

I am a white male, but resident in Belgium rather than the US. I for one at least admire your stand on some on this particular issue and on some of the other issues you've posted about on this forum.

"Below the line" is open territory on this site, so long as there is no personal abuse. Sadly, this part of the site is often awash with completely mindless drivel by people who should know better so there is no reason why you should post your reasoned point of view. I happen to agree with a lot of what you say. Others might not, that is their right, but let them debate it intelligently and without abusiveness (the refuge of the weak and scared).

On the Katrina disaster, my nearly 18-year old (white, philosophy student) has been in tears and rages many times in the last week about things she can clearly see are patently unfair, inhumane, biased or just plain racist. The actions, or rather lack of them at a crucial stage, of the US administration at various levels in this disaster has been shameful. At the same time I can only feel admiration for the local police chief (who was interviewed on the BBC last night) and his staff who have had to deal with the emergency from the first moment and under the same conditions of hardship, lack of communications and confusion as the rest of the NO residents. Notably, he criticised the early FEMA response.

I am probably opening myself to disagreement with one or two people I would class as friends here, but so be it.

Peace

moo
    The "One Woman's Protest" thread was a duplicate of Kirsten's "Only Whites Claim" message, which appears above.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:53 AM

Little Hawk,

I like your observations in this thread.

Kirsten's way of talking reminds me of religious preachers. They KNOW they are right, so there's no need for them to listen to others, only for others to listen to them. That has the effect to close my ears and my mind, even if they have something basically valuable to say.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: ONLY Whites Deny Katrina Response Racism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM

The elected and appointed black officials, civil servants and black police officers of New Orleans would, I am sure, strongly condemn the charges. Jessee Jackson tryed to play the race card, but seems to have backed away.

The slow relief start-up affected both white and black in Orleans Parish (67% black) and Jefferson Parish (70% white). Many dead whites, as well as blacks, are being found and collected at the temporary morgue at St. Gabriel.

The problem is that Americans are poor at disaster planning. Days passed before effective actions began. Stupidity, diversion of money for levee construction, unqualified leaders, a tortuous chain of command, but not racism.

The individual who started this thread spouts sewage as virulent as the waters being pumped out of New Orleans.


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Subject: RE: BS: ONLY Whites Deny Katrina Response Racism
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:15 AM

Again, post the fist paragraph or two, then provide a link for those who want to read the whole enchilada.


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Subject: RE: BS: ONLY Whites Deny Katrina Response Racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:58 AM

You know, Kirsten, you're going to have to learn a little finesse or you're going to end up dead. Dialogue, not confrontation, might work better, if it is mind changing that you are after.

I am white. I am a woman.


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Subject: BS: ONLY Whites Deny Katrina Response Racism
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 01:44 AM

Only Whites Claim Katrina's Poor Response is NOT Racist
By Kirsten Anderberg (www.kirstenanderberg.com)

I have not seen one person of color, anywhere, on any news broadcast, on any TV special, in any print article, even on the streets themselves, saying that the response to Katrina in New Orleans had "nothing to do with race." The mere fact that the ONLY people saying that are white says it all to me. Last night, I saw the Mayor of Houston whose name is ironically "Mr. White" pooh-poohing the racist part of this wholly. There is something totally obnoxious about this white mayor of Houston, saying it is "divisive" to try to address race in the Katrina response. Indeed, white boy President Bush said that any mention of this massacre in New Orleans being racially driven is merely a "political agenda" put out there by his opponents. I am sure Bush is scrambling to find some black faces to publicly deny the racist part of this, and that is why we have Condi Rice around. For times like these. You can tell just how racist this country is, by how many white men are working round the clock to pooh-pooh what is obvious to the world at this point.

Yesterday morning, Sept. 2, 2005, I went out and wrote "Stop the genocide in New Orleans NOW! Impeach GWBush" in chalk on sidewalks near my house. I found it wildly interesting that as I was writing one of these, a white male in his 20's came up and said "If you were not a woman, I would beat the sh*t out of you right now." I said, "Why, for writing this in chalk?" He said "You are so ignorant. You do not even know what genocide is." I said, "Excuse me sir, I have a degree in political science from the University of Washington and also have successfully passed all my prerequisites in law school, and I am well aware of what the word genocide means." I quoted the Webster Collegiate Dictionary definition: "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group." It was as if steam began coming out his ears at this, he puffed his chest, and began to stand in a physically threatening manner close to me. I said, "You know, I am twice you size. And I can be absolutely crazy if you push me. Just know you may endanger yourself physically if you touch me." He left with his legs between his tail, but why did a white male want to BEAT ME for saying that?!

I watched this trend continue all day yesterday. White men threatened me with violence ALL DAY yesterday for not giving an inch, calling this a genocide. I took a very large protest sign out to the streets yesterday. It said "No more RACIST and CLASSIST genocide in New Orleans. Impeach Bush Now." The first bus I got on, a black man immediately said to me "You got that right, sister." Then as I waited for the next bus, a black delivery man unloading near where I was waiting came up to me and said I was 100% right with my sign. When I got on the bus, I sat down, and an older black man turned around from the seat in front of me and said my sign was right on, and wondered how a white girl like me ended up out there protesting the racism. We talked for quite some time. Then I got off the bus into downtown Seattle.

Sadly, I was the only protester on the Seattle streets yesterday. I began to walk to the Market and a white businessman in his 50's said "Ma'am, ma'am…" and I kept walking thinking he was going to hassle me. He ran after me, tapped me on the shoulder, and said, "I just want to thank you for that sign." That was a good turn around from the morning threats, but it was brief. I got to the Market and a white middle class man in his late 60's came up to me and said, "You have a lot of nerve. No one is listening to you." I said, "No, it is old capitalist racist sexist white men that no one is listening to anymore and I think you are defensive because you know that." He said "You better watch your mouth girl." I said "There is free speech in America and I will call you a racist capitalist pig to your face again, so there!" Fuming, he threatened to go get cops. I laughed in his face and kept on walking and talking.

Next, I walked along First Avenue thinking maybe someone with a conscience was protesting at the Federal Building. As I walked down First Avenue, a white male cowboy started glaring at me, then walking next to me at my pace, then began berating me for saying this had to do with race. I pretended I did not hear him and kept walking. Sadly, when I got to the Fed Building, I was the only protester. I stood on the street there protesting for a while. Then decided to move to a place with more foot traffic, Westlake Center.

When I got to Westlake Center, it was packed with shoppers. Disgusted, I began saying very loudly, while holding my sign, "Your children are going to ask you what you did to stop the racist genocide of 2005 in New Orleans and you are going to have to tell them you went shopping! Can you live with that?" Black folks walked by with very wide grins as I was screaming this on the corner. Three black teen girls came up and said their aunt had said what I was saying. We talked at length at why this is blatant racism. They wanted to protest. I told them that even one person protesting makes a difference and they could see I was certainly getting a reaction.

As I stood at Westlake, Seattle's insane Police Department rode up on their little bikes. They walked right up to my face, and one of them, in FULL UNIFORM, ON DUTY, made circles around his ears at me to symbolize that I was "crazy." And yes, he was white, of course. I no longer am amazed at the gross lack of professionalism in the beater police squad in Seattle. But that seems very inappropriate to me.

As I stood on the corner with my sign, black males and females were coming in a solid stream saying that I was right, thanking me, etc. Yet white male after white male came up to me, pointed to the word "racist" on my sign, and called me crazy, a bitch, and many other slurs. The police stood by monitoring me, ready to arrest at one wrong move. Three men in a row threatened me with violence, and I was getting louder with each for safety. The police moved closer. Then a fourth white man and his wife approached. The police moved within hearing distance, within two feet of us. I knew they were getting ready to arrest me as a public nuisance or to try to put me in some weird psych thing they keep for logical women such as me. But as they leaned in, they heard the white man saying "What the hell is wrong with those men hassling you? You are absolutely right and you have courage." Ooops, not what the cops wanted to hear. For about 5 minutes, these folks from Canada began to tell me they are teachers, they have to explain this to kids, and it is impossible without bringing in the race and class equation. The police got bored and rode off.

By the time I got home yesterday from my one woman protest about town, I felt absolutely exhausted. I tried to figure out WHY this was so agitating to white men. I cannot believe I am going to be this honest, but I have to say, that my conclusion after yesterday is, that these white men really do WANT genocide, they really do WANT those poor black people in New Orleans dead. They are not even neutral on the subject. They want them DEAD. And they will try to beat and silence anyone who works against that. Is it mere coincidence that not ONE person of color threatened or harassed me yesterday and white male after white male threatened me with violence? How do YOU explain it?

Yesterday, someone wrote me an email claiming I was nuts to apply racism to this lack of response. I wrote back and said, "without knowing you, I can guess with certainty that you are 1) white and 2) male." This was his response this morning via email: "Kirsten, I am white. I am proud to be white. And I have no idea why you even brought that up. Was it my vocabulary that gave me away? You sound like a racist. I said nothing about your education. I was not referring to you when I talked about education as the key. I was speaking about people in general. You seem to want to make you and race the focus of everything. I was hoping that you actually had something valid to contribute. But it sounds like you are filled with hate. You sound like another one of those who need to blame the entire worlds problems on American white men. Too bad. I tried. Rmartin" Do I even need to add commentary to that? LOL! These white men try to play some patriarchal game, calling me ignorant and uneducated, then when I bust out the reality that I have more "education" than THEY do, they lose their minds and begin calling ME the racist! LOL! I have begun posting this crap on my website at http://resist.ca/~kirstena/pagehatemail.html.

Katrina has exposed the racism and classism so prevalent in America today and it has shown it is intentional, is my take on it. Those who defend the racism and classism, or try to deny it aggressively, seem to WANT genocide of people of color and the poor. That is my serious take on it. ONLY WHITES are saying Katrina's response was not racist. That should say it all. (And I am not saying all whites are denying this racism, I am saying that the only people who do deny it, are white, from my experience so far.) Seeing who is angry when you try to fight racism, often tells you where to begin. Go make some racists mad today!


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 12:09 AM

Here is an article that claims that FEMA has been made inoperative by the newly created Dept. of Homeland Security. Funds that would have normally been available for the operation of FEMA were diverted to cover the "war on terrorism".


http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3235fema_ruined.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Napalm
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:07 PM

Local is always the frontline to any disaster and should bear as much blame as the government for failure and lack of planning. Telling everyone to go to a stadium to await for federal aid is passing the buck. This would never happen in NYC. The buck would not be passed because it stops here with all our first responders and OEM services. To depend on President-Commander Coo-koo Bananas and his is sheer insanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:34 PM

Blanco ask for Federal aid back on August 27, 2005.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

They were having to deal with reality, John. The reality is that they didn't have the resources to do it. They said they didn't have the resources to do it. That's reality. The other aspect of reality is that FEMA was charged with the responsibility of taking up the slack for anything that the local governments didn't have the resources to deal with. That's the job of FEMA. That's why it exists. That's reality.

The idea that the local governments could have done better with the resources they had available to them, and the idea that the federal government and FEMA did not have any obligation or responsibility in this situation is fantasy. Not reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:27 PM

"But while it is possible (if you really try) to come up with some kind of explanations and half-excuses for the evacuation failure, and at least some of those staying behind did it of their own volition, the failure to respond quickly and adequately after the disaster is incomprehensible and completely inexcusable."

And isn't that funny? (funny "peculiar", not funny "ha ha" to quote Radar O'Reilly)...

Your first paragraph outlines what, to me should be the major issue. If people had followed the Comprehensive Emergency Plan that is laid out in black and white -- clearly delineating, to the finest detail, exactly how an evacuation should occur -- who is responsible for calling for one, what the means are of executing one -- there would not have been the human disaster that it became. That is just the black and white of it. The local officials were to instigate AND provide the means for the evacution to those who had no means.

It isn't a subject for monday morning quarterbacking -- that is how it was supposed to occur.

The local officials called for an evacuation, but then acted as though it was not their resposibility to execute it. Plain and simple.

And had they executed it, there would not be the huge human tragedy story.

But if one were to read the mudcat as a news source (ouch), one would get the idea that the evacuation was the duty of the federal government. It is not. It cannot be. The federal government cannot be ultimate responsible to oversee the evacuation of every local municipality that might need to be evacuated.

Where you live is no bigger than some of our States. We have a southern coastline that a hurricane can hit anywhere for thousands of miles. We have hundreds of midwestern cities and towns at risk for tornados and earthquakes (the "big one" in our history was not in CA, but rather, in the midwest), and we have California hanging off our edge, a foot-fault away from a love match with the Pacific.

No doubt the federal government did not respond fast enough when the local governments dropped the ball so incredibly -- I mean so incredibly -- but they also had to respond to the hurricane all along 100+miles of coastline AND they had to respond to an altogether different, and chronologically sequential, but different catastrophe -- the breach of the levies.

And yet you see your way clear to excusing the actual cause of the human disaster, but can't see any logistical complexity that might have made any of the delayed response time possible? You can only excuse the actual culprits, but cannot excuse the bumbling rescuers?

hmmmmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM

Yes, Carol, I can go along fine with what you said there...as long as it doesn't become a daily addiction. Then it's out of proportion. I agree that the Internet is allowing ordinary people all over the World to communicate directly with each other for the first time, and that is a tremendous opportunity to advance human awareness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM

So, of the two contributing factors to the human misery in NO (excluding the actual natural disaster), which, if it had been done properly, would have made more difference as we look back on it....

1. Lack of proper evacuation in the first place (regardless of whether or not it was volitional or not)?

2. Lack of fast federal response after the fact?
(John Hardly)

If there'd been a proper evacuation (see the quote about how Cuba managed that last year) the people would have been out of harms way, so there woudln't have been such a need for fast federal response (and more help could have been chanelled to all the other Gulf communities that have been wrecked and virtually ignored, according to our media coverage in the UK).

But while it is possible (if you really try) to come up with some kind of explanations and half-excuses for the evacuation failure, and at least some of those staying behind did it of their own volition, the failure to respond quickly and adequately after the disaster is incomprehensible and completely inexcusable.

The third factor of course is how could it come about that the levees protecting New Orleans broke down so catastrophically. If that hadn't happened, while Katrina would have devastated the Gulf Coast, New Orleans would in fact have got off relatively lightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:12 PM

The municipal busses were being used to get people to the shelters like the Superdome and the Convention Center. Had it been possible to use them for getting everyone without cars out of the city entirely, I don't think Mayor Nagin would have said that the local authorities didn't have the resources to get everone without cars evacuated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM

Sounds like paradise, Ebbie. I loved Cuba. Not a friggin' computer in sight, and people were doing things instead of watching other people do those things on a TV screen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:08 PM

LH, I agree with you about the ways in which people can be destructive in discussions in places like the Mudcat. But I cannot agree with you if you are suggesting that these discussions don't serve an important function. They really do, even if you can't see it yourself.

Think about it though... when, in the history of humankind, did we ever have such an amazing opportunity to get out of our locally defined way of looking at the world and to be able to see things from the perspective of so many people in so many parts of the world? Although you may not see it, this is precisely what humankind needs right now to help each of us become more empowered to do what is needed, and to make the world a better place. When we are able to find things out for ourselves instead of having all of our thoughts and our information spoon fed to us by our "designated thinkers". This is an amazing time we are living in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM

Come to the Getaway, Little Hawk. NO computers, no phones, no radios, no television. Or at least, none that I heard. There is a big TV in the big room but I don't know if it works. We didn't even think of turning it on.

One month? Hmmmmmm. It was ALMIGHTY cold.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:00 PM

LarryK's post was quite useful. Good perspective on what has happened.

Peter, this conversation has moved forward. They do that. The focus shifts. Go back to the beginning and read through and maybe you'll see what I mean. Introduction of new aspects of an argument is a logical way to proceed.

Carol, of the two, the Times-Picayune article is very good and the most useful. That's the kind of documentation needed here.

    Truehill, Wilkins and others said emergency preparedness officials still plan to deploy some Regional Transit Authority buses, school buses and perhaps even Amtrak trains to move some people before a storm.

    An RTA emergency plan dedicates 64 buses and 10 lift vans to move people somewhere; whether that means out of town or to local shelters of last resort would depend on emergency planners' decision at that moment, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said.

    But even the larger buses hold only about 60 people each, a rescue capacity that is dwarfed by the unmet need.


These are the buses that I was referring to, the municipal variety, that have established routes that could be modified to take riders to the evacuation site, in this case, the SuperDome. Finding out what actually happened regarding this system that was discussed will no doubt be part of the investigation into this disastrous evacuation.

Only someone acquainted with NOLA and it's neighborhoods and bus and streetcar lines will know if any or all of this could/should have been pressed into service:

http://www.neworleanscvb.com/listings/index.cfm/catID/12/hit/1/sectionID/1/subsectionID/353/

Getting Around


New Orleans is one of the world's busiest ports and the cultural capital of the South, yet the city is remarkably compact and easy to navigate. Visitors are always pleasantly surprised to learn that many of the city's attractions, accommodations and event venues are within walking distance of each other; in fact, "hoofing it" (in New Orleans' case, translated as walking or grabbing a mule-drawn carriage) is a favorite means of transportation in the Crescent City.

But, if you prefer wheels to legs, New Orleans has a very accessible and reasonably priced public transportation system, too. It only costs $1.25 to take an RTA bus . . . or one of the city's famed streetcars, which travel St. Charles Avenue, the Riverfront and Canal Street. Where else can you actually ride on a historic landmark? Grab a free VisiTour Guide, a city map with hundreds of landmarks and attractions along with bus and streetcar schedules, and you are on your way in no time.

Of course, as one of the world's top convention and meeting destinations, New Orleans also has a range of national car rental agencies, and taxi and limousine services are available around the clock. Many of the city's hotels and attractions offer free shuttle services, and there are a great variety of guided tours throughout the city and its environs.

Being surrounded by water is not a complication in New Orleans; in fact, it offers one more reason to travel in style. Several luxury cruise lines call New Orleans a home port, and riverboats go rollin' on the river just like they've done for more than a century. If street traffic is tight, you can always take a ferry to Algiers or a river shuttle between Audubon Institute attractions!



http://www.neworleanscvb.com/static/index.cfm/contentID/543/sectionID/1/subsectionID/0/

Bus: $1.50 will get you from the airport to Tulane Avenue near Elks Place, a few blocks from the Superdome and Canal Street. Departs every 10 minutes from 6-9 am and 3-6 pm and every 23 minutes otherwise. Operating hours: 6am-6:30 pm.


St. Charles Avenue streetcar: Have you ever ridden in a national historic landmark? Shell out just $1.25, board a streetcar, and you, too, can answer "yes" to that question. Streetcars have been rumbling along St. Charles Avenue since 1835. The current route runs over 13 miles downtown from Canal Street along St. Charles, past Greek Revival mansions and raised cottages, Tulane University and Audubon Park and beyond the shops at the Riverbend, where it takes a right-hand turn onto Carrollton Avenue. The St. Charles Avenue streetcar made its inaugural run as the Carrollton Railroad, which shuttled passengers between the French Quarter and the resort town of Carrollton. Thousands of residents still commute to work on the 35 olive-green electric cars.

Riverfront streetcar: For $1.25, you can ride the new red streetcars, handcrafted in New Orleans by woodworkers and metal smiths. The two-mile route of the Ladies in Red includes stops at all the right places: the Convention Center at Julia Street, Riverwalk, the Aquarium of the Americas, the French Market and the Old Mint on Esplanade.

Canal Streetcar: After a 40-year absence, streetcars have returned to Canal Street in 2004, a central artery of New Orleans that forms one of the boundaries of the French Quarter. On the Canal streetcar line, passengers can ride over four miles from the Mississippi to the city's famed cemeteries, with a "spur" near the end leading to the New Orleans Museum of Art in City Park. The 24 new streetcars on the line closely resemble the historic Perley Thomas 900 Series cars that currently operate on the St. Charles Avenue line, and which ran on Canal Street until that line was discontinued in 1964. Traditional in appearance, they will offer two welcome updates: wheelchair accessibility and air conditioning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:59 PM

So true, Bill. So true. I sincerely have great compassion for people who are, like me, deeply addicted to pontificating on this forum, and I think that we might all benefit tremendously by going somewhere where there are no computers for a month or two. Seriously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM

LH: You have hit the nail on the head---sitting at a keyboard etc; Accomplishing what-----thinking what a deep thinker one is and what a great writer who is being read other really deep thinking individuals.

I paraphrase---once again Will Shakespeare---Sound & Fury signifying nothing.

Reminds of an old joke--these ponticating discussions here--of which I too am guilty many times:

Pres. LBJ---Welcome to the White House Mr. President

Pres. of Israel: Thanks---we have problems

Pres. LBJ---Not like me I have the problem of 138 million people to deal with.

Pres. of Israel: Yes, but in Israel I have 2 million Presidents to deal with

Sounds like this forum to me


Bill Hahn
(brightening your day and putting all the deep thoughts into perspective) (I think I will stick with Dan Schor and Frank Rich)


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM

"for many of us, this is not about winning arguments. It is about trying to save our country and our society"

Yes, Carol, I understand that. I know you are truly concerned about the issues being discussed. What concerns me is people's tendency to break up and seriously damage their sometimes lengthy friendships with other people as a consequence of debating and discussing current issues. Why does that happen? Too much pride? Too much self-righteousness? Too thin a skin? Too much hurt? Too much need to be "right" (and therefore better than the other person)? I think it's sad and unnecessary that that happens, and I would prefer that it didn't. It must be possible to debate strenuously about things and to disagree, without permanently damaging one's relations with other people. I have known any number of cases where people on this forum decided that someone else "wasn't worth talking to" after some disagreement they had about politics, society, or whatever. They then either ostracize the other person totally or they attack them repeatedly on the forum with contempt, sarcasm, accusation, ridicule, and various other forms of thinly disguised hatred. That's what happens when people's emotions get so wrapped up in defending their rhetorical position that it poisons the dialogue.

That's what I am advising against. It's not a healthy form of behaviour.

If people simply cannot forgive other people's obvious lack of perfection, how the hell are they ever going to come to terms with their own lack of perfection? And that applies to the political arena too, by the way! Big time. Wars happen because a lot of people are incapable of accomodation or forgiveness. Same goes for suicide bombings.

Kirsten's original post that set off this whole thread was a spectacular example of a mind that does not for a moment entertain the notion of forgiveness. Such a mind prefers to divide Life into "the good and the evil" and seek out final and bitter retribution upon the "evil" (those being, whoever the "good" don't happen to agree with about something at any given time).

It's a vicious mentality. It may identify with underdogs...or overlords...but it's vicious in either case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:40 PM

Here's some documentaton about the lack of transportation for many of the people who were not evacuated:

From the Washington Post...

"Many of the residents left in New Orleans are poor, and while some people have criticized them for failing to heed mandatory evacuation orders, many residents say they were simply unable to get out for financial or medical reasons.

'People are saying that those stuck in New Orleans now are those that wanted to stay, but that's not true," said Danelle Fleming, a New Orleans-based social worker. "They wanted to leave, but they couldn't.'

She said that the city's Greyhound station was closing Saturday afternoon -- even as people without cars were trying to leave.

After being rescued from her roof, Moses said she was among those unable to evacuate before the hurricane. 'My mother-in-law went out of town, but I didn't have any money, so I couldn't,' she said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083000689_2.html


This is from the New Orleans Times Pickayune, in JULY, long before they even knew about hurricane Katrina, and clear demonstraton that although the local authorities were concerned for the people who were too poor to get out on their own, the local authorities just didn't have the resources to get them out. And the reason it was so important for FEMA to do its job in this situation...

"In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."

http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-10/1122184560198030.xml?nola


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:15 PM

Interesting stuff about the mayor's early broadcast Larry K, well worth keeping in mind as part of the whole picture. But surely you've downplayed Bush's failures, and his sheer inadequacy for the moment (almost everyone I've seen interviewed has come across with more conviction and gravitas than Bush could ever show).

SRS I am amazed at what a shallow debater you're showing yourself to be - willing to move the goalposts and change tack almost on a whim, simply to save your pride. For instance this thread was never about criticisimg bus drivers. That's a straw man of your own invention. It was about discrimination. We've all seen photos of scores of school buses lined up in serried ranks, long after they could have been playing a role in saving lives. No-one here is blaming the bus drivers for that, but it lends credence to the argument that nothing like enough public-transport capacity was provided to meet the need.

You've responded to me with bold claims. You said that public transport WAS available for all who needed it (your emphasis, not mine). Yet when Carol C and I asked for a source, you ignored my request and rounded on Carol with venom - dmeanding, childishly, that she should prove otherwise. Frankly that's pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:10 PM

Both, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

So, of the two contributing factors to the human misery in NO (excluding the actual natural disaster), which, if it had been done properly, would have made more difference as we look back on it....

1. Lack of proper evacuation in the first place (regardless of whether or not it was volitional or not)?

2. Lack of fast federal response after the fact?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:50 PM

You people are so damn hung up on placing the blame on why everyone wasn't evacuated that you keep missing the big picture. Who gives a rats ass who was at fault in the beginning. Everyone gambled and lost. You can get killed jumping out of an airplane or crossing a street, even after everyone tells you the dangers. If everyone was evacuated and the storm missed, this forum would be filled with whiners complaining how the goverment wasted our money in getting everyone out of NO.   Too many god damned Monday morning quarterbacks without any chance of influencing opinion.

The real issue is how the situation was dealt with when the problem occured. The rest of the discussion is going nowhere and just satisfying the egos of people who like to see their opinions in print. (I guess I include myself in that!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM

I think the Louisiana state officials deserve some castigation. However, in Blanco's favour, she did ask for federal assistance on August 27, 2005. Bush played guitar. Condi shopped. Efforts to place the blame on mayors and governors--they will get their share. But Bush will get his share, too, and it's one friggin' big chunk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM

Larry K, people in Mississippi are also complaining about the failure of the federal government in carrying out its responsibilities there. Are you going to try to pin that on the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana?


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Just Passing Through
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM

Diatribe, Wesley S.

The person who started this thread is a hard-charging, clenched-fisted, male-hating feminist throwback to the 1960s. Look up "Kirsten Anderberg" in Google and see what kind of material you find. There's a lot of it there. She has written a whole stack of angry. ball-busting articles for various publications. The post that started this thread is typical of her writing. And she's into "vulva art," sort of like Judy Chicago. Full of rage. She's a real piece of work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM

Maggie, you are one of the worst offenders of the very thing you are complaining about. Just ask beardedbruce. And you have been ordering me around and bossing me and using huge brightly colored letters to tell me to shut up when you disagree with me. And I just ignored you at first because I didn't want to get into one of these kinds of arguments with you. But this is too much. You are one of the biggest hypocrites in the Mudcat when it comes to using personal attacks instead of reasoned argument. Makes me embarassed to have you arguing on the same side of the political spectrum as me.

I'll get some documentation for you as soon as I can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM

Bush was 24 hours late???!!!

Yeah, right. How did you figure that????

And I suppose you agree with Bush that FEMA's Brownie "did a heck of a job".

Seems to me that Rove and company are trying desperately to shift the blame for this miserable failure.

Sorry, it ain't gonna work.

This is beyond sad & dishonest.

It is outrageous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

I listened to the Druge Report on Sunday night.   He replayed an interview with the Mayor of New Orleans from last Sunday night- just hours before the storm. WHAT A F*ING JOKE!

The mayor was calm drinking from his Starbucks coffee. He told Druge how well the evacuation was going and how everying was proceeding smoothly.   When asked about opening the airport or convention center he said there was no need.   The superdome was just fine.

The mayor said that the levees could only handle a level 3 and they were predicting a level 5 but he felt that if the levees broke, it could be pumped out in a week without any real problem.

WHAT GROSS INCOMPETENCE BY A DEMOCRATIC BLACK MAYOR.   (the racism claim is so bogus)   The mayor opened the Superdome but never thought to stock it with food or water . DUH!   The mayor had an emergency plan to use public busses and tranist to evacuate poor people but he never used them.   He preferred to spend most of his time on TV with photo ops.    Was he ever at the Superdome like Rudy was at ground zero?

The DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR was also a miserable failure.   According to the mayor (also played on Drudge this past Sunday) he had Bush and the governor in a room and told them they must get on the same page and that he wouldn't leave until they resolved the issues.   According to the mayor, Bush offered two proposals.   The governor said she needed 24 hours to review the two proposals and she would get back with them.   WHAT A DISCRACE!   She didn't have 24 hours.   How many people died in those 24 hours.   She also refused to turn over the national guard to the feds.   Once the feds came in, the General got 20,000 people removed in a single day.   (great job by the military in saving lives)

Meanwhile, 1/3 of the New orleans police force resigns while others are caught on camera looting stores. Senator Landreax's response is that she would punch Bush in the mouth. That really is productive.   The entire Lousiana government (mostly democratic) was a miserable failure from mayor, to senator to governor.   They had an emergency plan and didn't follow it resulting in the death of thousands of their citizens.   And all they can go is blame Bush and each other.

Bush was 24 hours late, (no excuse for that either) and FEMA was horrible.   Yet the mudcat forum puts the blame only on Bush and Fox News.... how sad and dishonest.   I urge you to listen to the interview with the mayor only hours before the storm and make up your own minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

    Pretty much all of the authority figures on the ground in the area have said that most of the people who were left behind didn't have access to transportation out of the area. Many of the people who were left behind who have been interviewed have said they didn't have access to any transportation out of the area. If that's not enough proof for you, your problems are bigger than you realize, and they have nothing to do with me.


Nope, not good enough. Send some links or citations. I won't accept your telling of the thing to defend your position. Send someone else's story, with a link to a legitimate media outlet, not a blog somewhere. It's time you stopped analyzing people who argue with you as if they must be nuts because they don't agree with you. I've tried on several occasions to discuss things where you got your wind up, but your nasty rebuttals to all and sundry show no care for the fact that we agree on many things. You convince me again that you're more interested in the argument than in the relationships that exist here at Mudcat. I'm sorry for that.

Meanwhile, you're so terribly willing to blame everyone EXCEPT the people who didn't get themselves out of harms way. The biggest part of the responsibility lay with the individuals themselves to go when they were told to do so. The adults have free-agency and had to act on behalf of themselves and their children. Many of them made bad decisions, to try to protect property instead of life and limb. Those who did evacuate and go to the places set aside for use were doing what they were told and really were, along with those too ill to be moved and thus not moved at all, the first order victims in this horror, in the lack of care they received in the place they were stuck in.

But before you launch into another jeremiad, stop and think. No one is ever going to be able to truly parse out the real versus the imagined and the attributed reasons people didn't leave their homes in the path of the storm. A lot of people simply made a bad decision to stay. A lot of people for whatever reason weren't paying attention and didn't or couldn't get out when they realized how bad it was. And a lot of people are probably kicking themselves from here to next Tuesday for deciding to stay. But I doubt they're admitting it on national television and for the print media. It's too easy to suggest that they couldn't get out rather than that they didn't bother or waited too long until escape was no longer manageable through the usual channels.

There are many many true victims here. That isn't in dispute. But many who were caught up in this were the agents of their own misfortune.

I'm not going to try to identify who had what thought. I am pointing out that there were a lot of bad reasons for staying. There are still people who refuse to leave. On the radio this morning they followed some guys in a flat-bottomed boat who were in that Ninth Ward trying to rescue the last few. There were three guys on a balcony with no articulated good reason for staying, but refusing to leave. I think the boatmen were pretty canny in surmising that those three had something to hide or were sticking around to loot.

FEMA is a disgrace. But that's part two of the story. Once people found themselves in such a horrible situation, they all needed to be rescued. The reasons become moot. And George Bush's new and improved FEMA, politically-charged and top heavy as it is, is a big part of the problem, but to loop back around to the original essay, the problem wasn't genocidal. Letting Bush rework FEMA in with all of his Homeland Security nonsense was suicidal homicidal.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM

joke by don H. based on the actual experience of the mayor of Hattisburg who called FEMA and did not get a call back for 7 days:

" You have reached the office of the Federal Emergency Management Agency who has outsourced all emergency planning to a private contractor*. We are currently on vacation until the 2nd week of September. If this is a real national emergency please hang up and call Canada."


* true.


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Mudcat time: 17 February 7:46 PM EST

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