Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4]


BS: Genocide in New Orleans

Related threads:
Post Katrina; Songs mentioning/about N O (12)
BS: positive suggestions for disaster planning (42)
New Orleans Musicians who survived (23)
BS: Katrina's real name? (36)
Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina) (465)
BS: Really... Why Rebuild N.O.'s???... (58)
BS: 3,000 jobless in New Orleans (26)
BS: Hurricane Rita, Mother Nature, & FEMA (155)
BS: Need info about the Red Cross (68)
BS: Hurricane AFTERMATH (208)
BS: Rush Limbaugh blames Katrina's victims (96)
New Orleans Catters? (58)
BS: Black looters, white finders (224)
Lyr Add: My City's In Ruins (New Orleans) (8)
BS: So Where will The Next Disaster Hit? (91)
Hurricane Relief Song: Big Muddy (MP3) (4)
BS: New Orleans (39)
Song Challenge: Killer of New Orleans (34)
BS: My editorial cartoon on Federal Response (14)
BS: Controlling hurricanes (41)
BS: Greater Federal Authority? (23)
BS: Katrina Kamps (11)
BS: Katrina: Sequence of Events (31)
BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina (102)
BS: Left Behind in New Orleans: the elderly (25)
BS: Why 'NOLA' and suchlike? (51)
BS: Barbie explains it all (22)
Fats Domino missing in New Orleans -found! (35)
A Harrowing Account, Got to be new Thred (16)
Tabasco Sauce, Avery Isle, is it there? (12)
Neti Vaan and Bart Ramsey?Newn Orleans? (2)
BS: Houston Astrodome Censor (12)
BS: Bush to tell HIS side of story. (44)
BS: View any house in disaster area (4)
BS: PoppaGator survives Katrina.... (23)
BS: Death Sentence For Stealing Damaged TV (106)
BS: remember... (6)
BS: Karl Rove v. Hillary on Katrina... (20)
BS: more hurricane warnings (105)
BS: New Orleans Will Drown Again (65)
Hurricane Relief: How can I help? (29)
BS: Faith Based Disaster Relief! Ta Da!!! (33)
City of New Orleans - radio requests (21)
BS: the only send money syndrome (27)
BS: One Triumph Over Bureaucracy! (4)
Alive and well and OUT of New Orleans (61)
BS: Mike Brown of FEMA (6)
CD BABY and Hurricane Relief (4)
BS: Bobert to take on Katrina... (76)
Aftermath (11)
BS: Katrina photos (8)


CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM
Wesley S 06 Sep 05 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 06 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM
John Hardly 06 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,CCO 06 Sep 05 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 06 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM
Little Hawk 06 Sep 05 - 11:52 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Sep 05 - 12:28 AM
Bill Hahn//\\ 06 Sep 05 - 12:20 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 11:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Sep 05 - 11:09 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 10:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 10:03 PM
SINSULL 05 Sep 05 - 09:01 PM
GUEST 05 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 05 - 08:39 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 05 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 08:13 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Sep 05 - 07:55 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 05 Sep 05 - 07:42 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 05 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM
Peace 05 Sep 05 - 06:16 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM
SINSULL 05 Sep 05 - 05:28 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 03:55 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM
John Hardly 05 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM
Don Firth 05 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM
Bobert 05 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 01:44 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM
katlaughing 05 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM
CarolC 05 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 05 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,DB 05 Sep 05 - 07:20 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

LH, for many of us, this is not about winning arguments. It is about trying to save our country and our society, which is going to hell, fast, in a handbasket. Discussions in the public arena (and the Mudcat is a part of the public arena), are an important part of how societies try to correct the problems they face.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:23 PM

I noticed that Kirsten started this thread and hasn't returned. It makes me wonder which Kirsten considers most important - dialogue or diatribe ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM

Last I read the Crocs are having one helluva picnic! and eating live people as well, so much for the fence sitters!

Here in SA Tx we are doing best we can- our house sent a carload of groceries and some money through local agencies.

BTW Of the total New Orleans population of 450000,Texas has taken around 230000 people so far; and, some other states are taking in some of these folks eg California where good ole San Diego is first at the plate, course I could have predicted that one! knowing what I do about LA and San Francisco ...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM

I posted that, John, because I am subject to that same computer/internet addiction myself. I am keenly aware of it. The only way I can escape it for long is by leaving home (I don't have a laptop to take on the road with me). It's like a testimonial at an AA meeting for me to say that. ;-) I haven't beat it yet, but I hope to God I do, because it's robbing me of much of my life...and to utterly no real purpose whatsoever.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

ironic post from you, LH. *BG*

Interesting how uncomfortable everyone suddenly seems to be with mudcatters engaging in a disagreement. Why, suddenly, are so many people so interested in not continuing the arguement?

Arguing is most of what goes on "below the line" -- that and general bitching (that's where everyone waxes eloquent on what's wrong with the world and nobody calls them on it - nobody dares disagree). Why is this arguement any different?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,CCO
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:24 PM

The ego likes to argue, likes to "win" the argument, and takes absolute delight in ruining friendships in the process. It values the victory more than the friendship. Be warned.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:16 PM

Carol, you go get the proof that they WEREN'T trying to save people. I'm tired of arguing with you on these points. Bus drivers have been badly maligned in this whole argument.

Pretty much all of the authority figures on the ground in the area have said that most of the people who were left behind didn't have access to transportation out of the area. Many of the people who were left behind who have been interviewed have said they didn't have access to any transportation out of the area. If that's not enough proof for you, your problems are bigger than you realize, and they have nothing to do with me.

The bus drivers are NOT being maligned in any way. They shouldn't have been expected to solve a problem that was the responsibility of FEMA and the government.

Next thing, someone is going to start a thread called "New Orleans: America's Palestine."

Clearly you are not above taking cheap shots at people with whom you disagree. Nice going, Maggie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:52 AM

You know, all this fine political/social intellectualizing could easily end up robbing the main participants of experiencing any real life at all. What if an airplane crashed through your ceiling right now...and you died...and found yourself suddenly in Spirit realizing that you had done fuck-all with your restless mind in the past 7 months besides typing on a damned computer keyboard!

Would it matter anymore who won the argument?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

I thought about my last post overnight--I should apologize to BillH, whose measure I haven't taken as far as his approach to discourse. We haven't crossed paths often. I will simply restate that last observation to note that he isn't showing evidence of critical thinking on this particular issue--it's too emotional right now. I don't know how his reasoning processes work on other topics.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:28 AM

Bill H, it isn't your fault. You don't seem to have the critical thinking skills that let you examine the issue and figure out what is important and what isn't. The nonsense of "genocide" was dispatched early in the thread. My head isn't in the sand, it is squarely on my shoulders and is thinking about what is going on and examining the agendas of the various folks posting here. There is some hefty baggage being slung around in this thread, and if you're not up to keeping score, go do some research.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:20 AM

GEE--SRS---my head is in a box and yours is stuck in the sand so I wonder how you know how generous Ralph Cramden would be----bet he would have had a money making scheme that Norton would have disabused him of.   I am still trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that bus drivers are the topic of this thread---unless you are Ed Norton and got overcome by sewer fumes.

Bill Hahn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:18 PM

Carol, you go get the proof that they WEREN'T trying to save people. I'm tired of arguing with you on these points. Bus drivers have been badly maligned in this whole argument.

Next thing, someone is going to start a thread called "New Orleans: America's Palestine."

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:09 PM

Nah - can't be ol' Marty!

I can tell - he didn't use his favourite word - he woulda said 'shit for brains'...

:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM

SRS, can you please provide documentation that there was, in fact, public tranportation going OUT of the area to be evacuated? It would seem to me that the bus drivers would be sitting in that evacuation traffic in their family cars with their families evacuating the area along with everyone else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:12 PM

Geez, let's hope that's a spoof.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:03 PM

Excuse me for suggesting you're naive, BillH, but you need to learn to think outside of that little box you have your head crammed into. In the face of a hurricane and the order to evacuate, do you really think the bus driver is going to keep someone off of the bus because they don't have a buck? Really? Think about it. The order goes out. The driver knows the area, and knows there won't be many more runs and knows this is a matter of saving lives. Most of the bus drivers I have met in my life (and I've ridden a lot of buses over the years, in many urban areas) are nice folks and would understand this. Many of them would bend over backward to help people. So don't give me the nonsense about not being able to afford the bus.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:01 PM

Why was a busload of hotel evacuees put on evacuation buses ahead of the people who sat for days without water, food, or sanitation? Not discrimination based on race or money? What then?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM

I AM GLAD I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:39 PM

Nothing ridiculous about it that I can see. Isn't the practice of favouring publicly funded projects in places where they will help win votes and protect candidates from defeat (and vice versa) quite common in the USA? Isn't there even a term "pork-barrelling" that's been coined for it?

Discriminating in practice against black Americans - for example downgrading public projects especially affecting them (such as maintainance and improvement of the New Orleans levees) wouldn't have to be done on the basis that they were black. Doing it on a basis of voting records and expectations would have exactly the same effect. And very few black Americans were likely to vote for Bush, even before New Orleans was washed away. (Nobody will ever have a chance to do so ever again now, of course.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM

WOW!!!   Wish I knew how to make that larger.    I am surprised, srs, that you are alive after having your head in the sand so long---breathing must have been very hard. Perhaps as hard as the poor folks trying to overcome the stench, crowding, and sad events that engulfed them are suffering.

Tough to get on a bus without a fare.

Sadly, we find it better to send expensive helicopters to rescue some people rather than to evacuate them early for no charge on a bus.

I am sure that the appeances by cabinet members in pressed shirts and platitudes are a really warming momemt for the sad multitudes that are suffering.


But--as said before---the people are asked for donations to help. The Hyatts, Trumps, et al are still renting rooms---and selling food.
We--sadly--make money on wars and calamities. Even wars we start to help the economy---and now are biting us in the proverbial----ass


Bill Hahn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:13 PM

Had it crossed your mind that this might have been a subconcious factor in the decision to withdraw funding for flood defences?


No.



And shame on you for suggesting it. It's that kind of idocy that STARTED this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:55 PM

SRS, what's your source for this: "There WAS public transportation to be had, if residents had elected to use it."

You've argued that as New Orleans is majority African American (which I think we knew already) then obviously most of the victims would be black and therefore there was no racism at play. Had it crossed your mind that this might have been a subconcious factor in the decision to withdraw funding for flood defences? I have read that in meetings to plan the response in the event of a major hurricane hitting New Orleans, the question was several times raised about those who would not be able to evacuate. People then looked uneasily at each other but had no answers. I wonder if flood-defence funding would have been withdrawn from Long Island or Boston had either of those been one of the country's three biggest disaster risks?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:42 PM

Did not mean to leave out my name:   Bill Hahn


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM

This whole thing has brought to the fore the wide schisms in the nation.   

An inept and uncaring administration. The sad fact that the economy is going to hell---and the oil CEOs will still be rcvng their multimillion salaries.   

Aside from all of the above. I was listening to some callers to a local station here that was talking of what can be done to help---many offered their homes, food, air fares, etc; I kept thinking--great Capitalistic economy---so ==where are the offers of lodging and food from the hoteliers and the food chains---read---Trump/Hilton/Hyatt/etc; Are only the downtrodden and middleclass relegated to helping?

You can rest assured that rebuilding will make the magnates more millions. I understand that Halliburton has already been called in---at their usual price. And we pay for it.

I must, however, agree with one of the above correspondents---it is, as I said too, classism as opposed to racism.   

It certainly is a comfort to know that the person in charge of the FEMA activities was a political appointee who's last position was with an Arabian Horse Assoc.---bet he knows a few well placed Saudis. Never hurts---perhaps he can get us robes and nurkas wholesale.

CHeck below for a brillian piece I rcvd via e mail today:




Subject: FW: REMEMBER MICHAEL MOORE?



Friday, September 2nd, 2005
Dear Mr. Bush:
Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.
Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?
Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!
I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?
And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!
On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.
There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.
No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!
You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.
Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com
P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:16 PM

Cuba made an offer to the US to help. Does anyone know if it was accepted?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM

Yes, it appears that the government of Cuba actually cares about its citizens.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

You have a situation where there's been an official warning that the city needs to be abandoned because of a hurricane - and you charge them bus fares to be evacuated; and you have people who are scared to leave because they haven't the money to pay for a place to live and for food to eat when they get there?

This is "free enterprise" and "the market economy" gone completely crazy. And this is the model of how to run a society that is supposed to be copied by other countries all over the world - and even imposed on them by economic pressure and even military force?

I only hope that this is going to open people's eyes to what kind of primrose path they are being led down by those who are selling these sort of ideas.

Last year in Cuba there was Hurricane Dennis, and it meant one and a half million people having to be evacuated in one hell of a hurry. Terrible devastation was caused, and the cost was estimated at $1.4 billion. But the total death roll was 16. Which was considered unexpectedly (and no doubt in Bush terms "unacceptably") high by the people in gharge.

"The level of disaster preparedness in Cuba is extremely high and it is thanks to this that even more losses of lifeand property was prevented. In advance of the hurricane local authorities evacuated over 1.5 million people, including thousands of tourists, to safer areas. Of these, 245,106 people were moved to State provided shelters and the rest of the people weathered the storm in the homes of family and friends, 8 million people were at risk. About 475,000 animals were evacuated, 225,000 cows and 170,000 chickens. (Oxfam Canada)

Perhaps the USA could consider contracting out the job of dealing with natural disasters to Fidel Castro...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:28 PM

An interesting development: Bush and his Mrs. visited Louisiana without including the Governor in their plans. She found out and showed up less than happy. I thought he said he was going to work with national, regional, and local people to get the job done?

They met for close to two hours. I would love to have been a fly on the wall during that meeting. Seems his nose is out of joint because she refused to allow the military to take over control of the National Guard.

No politics at work here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:19 PM

...and also this from the Department of Homeland Security:


Emergencies & Disasters

Planning & Prevention

National Response Plan: Prevention, Preparedness, Response & Maintenance

Response

"The National Response Plan provides the policies and processes for coordinating Federal support activities that address the short-term, direct effects of an incident. These activities include immediate actions to preserve life, property, and the environment; meet basic human needs; and maintain the social, economic, and political structure of the affected community"

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/editorial/editorial_0570.xml


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:12 PM

Rather than spending time subtracting political leanings before fact-checking posts from here at Mudcat, folks might want to go to the direct sources of good information:

The Times-Picayune

The Clarion-Ledger

The Mobile Register

I've saved a desktop icon for each, and go back periodically to read new entries. It's heartbreaking.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:55 PM

Keep in mind, also, that the Mayor of New Orleans was not responsible for the areas outside of the city limits that were similarly abandoned by the federal government.

Here is what the FEMA and Department of Homeland Security people have to say about what they are responsible for. Under the circumstances on the ground at the time, because of the state of emergency that had been declared by the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, condition number 2 applied at the time in question. And condidion number 4 could have been applied by President Bush at any time, but was not...


"The Homeland Security Act of 2002 established DHS to prevent terrorist attacks within the United States; reduce the vulnerability of the United States to terrorism, natural disasters, and other emergencies. The act also designates DHS as "a focal point regarding natural and manmade crises and emergency planning".

Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations within the United States to prepare for, respond to, and recover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies. HSPD-5 further designates the Secretary of Homeland Security as the "principal Federal official" for domestic incident management.

In this role, the Secretary is also responsible for coordinating Federal resources utilized in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies if and when any of the following four conditions applies:

(2) the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance has been requested;

(4) the Secretary has been directed to assume incident management responsibilities by the President."

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM

FEMA was working pretty well before it got absorbed into the DHS, John.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM

It is an interesting point, one that I haven't seen often made, that the absorbtion of FEMA into DHS certainly seemed to have a hand in furthering the disaster.

To further federalize programs -- to further centralize programs that apply to specific regions -- is, by witness of this disaster, probably not a wise move.

I just spent quite some time looking over the NO "Comprehensive Emergency Plan" in which it is quite plain that evacuation is absolutely the responsibility of the local government. And given the nature of evacuations, who would want to further federalize a local evacuation plan? What? ...so we don't evacuate until we get federal agents in to direct the evacuation out of real estate with which they don't have the slightest familiarity? ...and we wait for a signal from Washington to tell us?

We seem to have such a federal view of every problem. We seem to think that we can centralize every issue that America faces. Certainly this should show some of the folly in that kind of thinking.

Excellent posts, SRS.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

By the way, mississippitom, being poor doesn't necessarily mean the person in question is on welfare. There are many, many "working poor" who are working very hard, often at more than one job, who live paycheck to paycheck and don't have any financial cusion at all, and who barely survive on what they do have. These are the people who make it possible for the rest of the country to buy goods cheaply at places like Walmart and McDonalds, and who do the jobs that no one else is willing to do. This country depends on these people, and they don't deserve anyone's contempt. It's quite an insult to these people to suggest that they have not done all they could to better their situation.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

I think that had FEMA been left as it was and had it not been absorbed into the Department of Homeland Security, things would have unfolded quite differently than they did, mississippitom. I credit a large chunk of this tragedy to the gutting of civil infrastructure in this country that is being undertaken by the Bush administration (and to some extent some of the previous administrations, but not anywhere near the extent of the Bush administration). I don't think it's necessarily motivated by racial considerations, but the effect is being felt much more severely and disproportionately by the Black people of the area. And that can make it look like it is motivated by racism.

But the reality is that the local governments don't have the resources to conduct these kinds of disaster relief efforts. That's precisely why we have agencies like FEMA. And since it was, by definition, the responsibility of FEMA to manage this emergency, and since they did not do so, they (and the people they answser to) are the primary people who are responsible for how things turned out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM

Hmm! Just as an aside. . . .

I have discovered—the hard way—that when I make a statement about the actions or behavior of SOME members of a semi-specific group (Christians, conservatives, left-handed people, inhabitants of California, etc.) I have to be very careful to say that "some" people in this category tend to behave in this manner. But not just that:   In an attempt to make my meaning abundantly clear, I often make use of some HTML codes and display the word "some" in boldfaced, underlined, and in CAPS, thus:
SOME.
Otherwise, someone is bound to get on my cas, accusing me of claiming that ALL people in the category in question behave this way.

But even when I do take great pains to make my meaning abundantly clear, there are STILL those who will claim that I said something that I did not.

In our enthusiasm to make our points, let's not let our adrenaline get out of hand, shall we?

Don Firth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

You must remember that the Mayor of New Orleans is also a Black person and he had no plan to get those poor folk out of the City did he?I do not for one minute believe that racism is or was the problem.Classism yes but not racism.The poor have no real voice.But again let us not forget that the approach of throwing money at this kind of problem is not the answer either.Oprah Winfrey tried it and it failed miserably.This is a very complicated problem and will take some very deep objective thinking and dialogue to fix.It is hard for me to see why if all it takes is money to fix things did welfare fail so miserably.People have to want to do better first and welfare is nothing but a trap.We have people of all different nationalities and colors come to this country with almost nothing and work very hard and do very well for themselves.The answer has to be in a hand up not a hand out.Feed a man fish and you will feed him forever.Teach a man to fish and he will feed himself and be a much happier productive person.Dialouge like this is part of the solution but it must be objective and honest and not about throwing stones.Let he who has done everything they can to try to solve problems like this be the first to throw the stones.mississippitom


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM

And even the computer models that were generated in recent years projecting what the effect of a hurricane like Katrina would be for the area around New Orleans, projected that there would be about 100,000 to 200,000 people who would not have any access to transportation out of the area. But the disaster plans did not include any provisions for getting these people out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM

But what I do know is that there are many, many people who have said that they wanted to leave, but couldn't. And many who were too sick or weak to evacuate themselves. And many who were too poor to be able to pay for bus fare. NO had quite a large homeless population. They had no access to any transportation that was not provided free of charge.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM

I quoted you directly, SRS. I did not put any words into your mouth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:44 PM

I'm not assuming anything Carol, but you're putting words in people's mouths. Lets wait until something appears about what was going on in New Orleans with the municipal bus folks, shall we?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

Alabama and Georgia have been taking in refugees right from the start. Many of the refugees plan to resettle in these areas, and are receiving all kinds of financial and other support to help them with resettlement.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:26 PM

A military base on Cape Cod is expecting 2,500 refugees. Ironically, there are no vacancies in homeless shelters anywhere on the Cape for its own residents in need from whatever circumstances. The shelter is not begrudged to refugees of NO, just the irony noted, esp. among those who are in the trenches, daily, trying to help people who have nowhere to live.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM

This is the part of your post that I take exception to, SRS...

It has not been established that these people didn't leave town for the want of a bus fare.

It has been established that large numbers of people (many of the sources I've read have said the majority of those who remained) are those who were too poor to have any means of leaving. And you are assuming that there were busses operating during the evacuation that would have taken people out of the area. But even if there were, there were still many who would not have been able to afford the bus fare.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

An informative article, but a poorly worded headline.



Perry Orders Refugees Moved Out of Texas
September 05, 2005

AUSTIN, Texas - With Texas shelters reaching their limit of refugees from Hurricane Katrina, state leaders want to fly some of them to other states that have offered to help. Gov. Rick Perry said Sunday that Texas needs other states to help manage the growing crisis. Nearly a quarter million refugees are already in Texas and more are still pouring in. "There are shelters set up in other states that are sitting empty while thousands arrive in Texas by the day, if not the hour," Perry said. "We are doing everything we can to address the needs of evacuees as they arrive, but in order to meet this enormous need, we need help from other states."

Under a plan set up Sunday, aid centers will be established at airports in Houston and Dallas where incoming refugees can be given food, water and medical care before they are flown out. The Texas National Guard will coordinate the air operation and the governor's office said that people should not just show up at an airport expecting to be transported. Perry said that American, Continental and Southwest airlines, all of which are based in Texas, have agreed to lend their help.

Since Thursday, Perry's office has been in contact with several states, including the governors of Utah, Oklahoma, Michigan, Iowa, New York, West Virginia and Pennsylvania about providing shelter for Louisiana evacuees. Perry's office said arrangements also were being made to bring cruise ships to Galveston to help house Louisiana residents. More ships could be stationed in Beaumont and Corpus Christi.

Texas has been taking in refugees since Wednesday. By Saturday, Perry warned the state was nearing its limit. About 100,000 Louisiana residents are staying in hotels and motels across the state and another 139,000 are being temporarily housed in 137 shelters throughout the state from the Houston Astrodome to El Paso.

Perry spokeswoman Kathy Walt said she didn't know how many refugees might ultimately end up in other states. "Gov. Perry has been heartened by the number of governors who have called him," Walt said.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

I don't, Peter, but you appear to be trying to defend the position that everyone did make provision and it was all washed away.

On Saturday's Weekend Edition on NPR I heard an interview with a fellow who had evacuated on Friday and housed in a Memphis hotel. He had done everything correctly, right from watching the weather and having enough of an understanding that the flooding was going to be a problem. They need to find that guy and hire him to run the Common Sense In the Face of a Pending Disaster Department.

CarolC, I say that some people didn't leave because it was their choice and you say that they couldn't get out and are angry about it. There is room in that city for both events to have happened to a lot of people, and as we can see now, there are a lot of people who still resist leaving. It is possible to acknowledge the agency of the people who were trapped there without blaming the victims, possible to acknowledge that a lot of people made the wrong decision when told to evacuate. Wrong decisions can extend to those who ran public transit--but I haven't read anything yet about what happened to public transit, so I'm not going to second guess that part of the story.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:08 PM

It has not been established that these people didn't leave town for the want of a bus fare. It has been established that a lot of people stayed behind because they wanted to guard their property and belongings or just didn't want to deal with the fuss of evacuation, after the chaos of a false alarm the year before. There WAS public transportation to be had, if residents had elected to use it.

This is simply not true. There were many people who wanted to leave and had no way to do it. And to then be blamed for not leaving, when they are pretty damned angry for being left behind in the first place, is just a bit too much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM

SRS, your posts have assumed taht the victims failed to make provision. You've got no way of knowing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:30 AM

SharonA wrote: There was no mention of their ethnicity, so this may be off-topic.

It isn't off-topic, because we have concluded that the racial card has been misplayed in this instance, at least in the way the early pundits were trying to play it.

PeterK (Fionn) wrote: SRS, where would be a good place to store your food and water if your home and street was about to be destroyed? How are people supposed to evacuate, when they haven't got cars, can't afford public transport, and in any case there's no public transport to be had at any price?

Okay, Peter, you're excused from preparing an emergency cache of food for your house in case of a weather emergency. You can just assume your house will be completely destroyed and you will be killed so the shopping and storage would be a fool's errand.

For the rest of us, however, who understand that there are more than hurricanes in the world, keeping a stash is one thing to do in case the local infrastructure is compromised but our houses are still standing, or at least enough of a house to use for shelter until we can get out of the area, whether under our own steam or with the assistance of rescue crews. And frankly, even if I were killed in the destruction of my house, if there is a stash here that my neighbors know they can find and use, I'd be glad to have provided it. I live in tornado alley, where neighborhoods and towns are scoured away with alarming regularity. (Our most recent big hit, March 28, 2000.)

It has not been established that these people didn't leave town for the want of a bus fare. It has been established that a lot of people stayed behind because they wanted to guard their property and belongings or just didn't want to deal with the fuss of evacuation, after the chaos of a false alarm the year before. There WAS public transportation to be had, if residents had elected to use it.

Does that answer your question?

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Genocide in New Orleans
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:20 AM

Nobody here seems to understand an essential truth. The present President of the United States of America was appointed, BY GOD HIMSELF, to make the rich of America even richer - AND NOTHING MUST STAND IN THE WAY OF THAT SACRED MISSION - certainly not a few uppity poor people down south. After all a much larger number of Iraqis and American soldiers have been sacrificed, so far, in pursuit of THE CAUSE, and that has all been worth it, hasn't it? Well, possibly ... it's just too early to tell ... maybe ... sort of... ?????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 23 April 11:16 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.