Irish music : why is it in D and G ?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:06 AM

I think it's odd that you're all trying to work out why traditional musicians don't change key very often. The answer is pretty obvious.

(1) It's traditional music. It's played that way because its part of the tradition. The musicians are (traditionally) less formally educated in music, and fiddlers in particular stick to 1st position. It doesn't seem to have hurt the music much.

(2) It's social music. That means that including people in the music is one of the priorities. If you start playing in keys which are 'difficult' on an instrument, you exclude those musicians. There was a fashion in some fiddlers' circles to tune up to E flat (note they didn't change playing position). They said it made the sound brighter, but I suspect this was also done to shut out loud box players.

(3) It's poor people's music. Many players would be limited to cheaper instruments- whistles(*) and old 6 hole flutes (often with dodgy semitone keys) after the Boehm system had largely taken over in the professional arena. As new instruments (banjo, button box, bouzouki) came along, this consideration constrained them to some extent to the conventions already existing.

(4) The overall sound is also part of the music. Hence the strident instruments like saxophone and clarinet haven't made much impact. Otherwise the key might well have changed to B flat/ E flat.

(5) I don't think there was much tradition of brass playing in Ireland, that could also have steered the music towards the flat keys.

(*) Though the most commonly available whistle in the 60s, the Clarke, was in C. They didn't do a D until much later.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:33 AM

Sound points Paul - not sure though how the Countess might react to them!

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM

Doesn't the oboe sound "A" as a tuning pitch?

Stu

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:20 AM

My remark that my fiddle plays in whatever key I tell it to was in response to someone's assertion that "violins are made to play in D", which they are not. It is a matter of fact, not sarcasm, that going through the process of getting to know your instrument to the extent of discovering that each string does a little more than sounding just three more tones (give or take a couple of accidentals . . . ooh difficult!) before you hit the next open string enables you to play relatively easily in any key. Which you'll need for vocal accompaniment. You're surely not going to tell people that they can't sing in a key that you can't find the notes for, are you?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

Why did Tcaikovsky write his Piano Concerto in B flat minor when in is so much easier to play in A minor ? Was he just making difficult or is there a valid musical reason?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:34 AM

I can't imagine anyone playing a violin not being aware that it can be played in any key. As a guitarist learning to play the octave mandolin, I'm well aware it can be played in any key (obviously) but have to admit I'm having to work hard to get beyond beginner level stuff in G and D. Any advice cr?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:41 AM

No magic solutions, Mr Jameswright. Just playing scales . . .

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:04 AM

Yeh - I'm doing that already. I know there are no magic solutions, and also know where the scale notes are in all keys so I'll just keep the old fingers (and brain) working hard.
Thanks for the advice

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:04 AM

Countess Richard says:
   " You're surely not going to tell people that they can't sing in a key that you can't find the notes for, are you?"

    Well, interestingly enough, that is precisely what a lot of great folk musicians have always done. As an obvious example, take cajun and Creole music in Louisiana. This was largely based on what could be played on a one-row diatonic melodeon(accordion) in C, with a fiddle tuned down a tone( so the fiddle was effectively playing in the D positions to get in with the accordion in C0. So the whole music was confined to what you could play on the white notes on the piano. In 95% of the music, this meant playing in C, or in G(with a flat seventh on the accordion, though the fiddle could play a sharp seventh if wanted). This(to bring it in lne with ur D/G discussion), was the equivalent to only playing in D or A, with very occasional tunes in the G position(eg Heehaw Breakdown). Some bands, by the way, actually had one-rows in D, which made the singers sing even higher than usual, and in that case the fiddlers didnt have to tune flat.
   And the singers had to put up with this lack of variety in keys..If they wanted to sing Jolie Blonde in Bflat, no way. G or nothing.(Obviously there were the occasional string bands with no accordion, but what I am describing was the dominant music). And very fabulous it was, and is.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:45 AM

Oboes give the starting pitch for an orchestra in A

Look some more yourself

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 10:58 AM

Why did Tchaikovsky write his Piano Concerto in B flat minor when in is so much easier to play in A minor

Because of even temperament. Prior to the tail end of the 17th century, instruments were tuned to the natural temperament system in which the full notes of the scale are in a simple ratio relationship with each other. But that only works for one key. The further you get from the key that set the white notes, the weirder it sounded. Some organs, for example, had split keys that sounded slightly different notes, to accommodate key changes.

Even temperament was introduced to overcome this. It is a compromise tuning, in which each octave is split into 12 divisions, each frequency being the 12th root of two times the last one. You have to have a good ear to tell the difference in the mostly-white-note keys, but it also makes the largely-black-note keys sound much better. It was this development that led to Bach's chromatic explorations.

Some golden- eared musicians claim that each key has its own character, and this may well be true, though I suspect that the variation in character depends on the particular instrument as much as the actual key. Perhaps also it's due to some people having a stronger sense of actual frequency (perfect pitch), which may be related to that whatjemecall it where people experience sensations in crossover form (you know, when people 'taste' yellow etc.).

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

Paul, I don't understand "each octave is split into 12 divisions, each frequency being the 12th root of two times the last one." Would you explain that further?
-------
I have two friends who are talented pianists. They had differing opinions about equal temperament. One, "A", said that equal temperament means that all keys sound the same. B said that they don't.

So B stepped into the kitchen, and A played the same musical phrase on the piano in different keys. B could tell when it was played on white keys and when on black keys. She says that the black keys chime more. I agree.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 09:32 PM

It depends on how the pianos were tuned.

A 'Modern Tuner' may use a tuner box tuned to the equal temperament '12th root' 12 tone system.

I have read 'Piano Tuning Handbooks' of the old school which specified that certain notes were tuned to specified pitch forks, and then the other notes were tuned to 'beat frequencies'. This was from the days when those 'electronic tuner boxes' were not even thought of.

A piano tuner 'touching up' an instrument in a house will usually just 'bend back' the worst notes out of tune to the the original tuning of the instrument itself, unless you want to spend more money for his time to reset the whole instrument, even change the 'reference pitch' of the whole instrument. I have a friend whose very old piano is in tune to itself, but nearly a full semitone in pitch lower than my piano accordion (which is set to A=442, not unusual for an Italian manufactured piano accordion). my ears aren't good enough to tell if it is not tuned exactly to 12th root tempered tuning.

So the instrument may be actually tuned to one of the old 'tempered tunings', and not exactly 12th root tempered tuning.

Those with high 'pitch sensitivity' can tell what the key is and of course if they 'already know' that some keys have different 'attached emotions'...

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 09:35 PM

"that whatjemecall it where people experience sensations in crossover form (you know, when people 'taste' yellow etc.). "

Synesthesia, I believe it is called.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST,Eleanor C
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM

I've been looking at tunings with regard to hurdy gurdies. Western european ones seem to be tuned to play in C,G and D, Eastern european ones in A,E and B; do Eastern european fiddlers play in a different tuning or is it to fit in with clarinets or something?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:33 AM

I don't understand "each octave is split into 12 divisions, each frequency being the 12th root of two times the last one." Would you explain that further?

In the natural scale, the ratio between C and D is 9/8 = 1.125, and the ratio between D and E is 10/9 = 1.111..

So if you play in D on an instrument tuned to a natural scale of C, the E is rather flat. And so on up the scale.

In the even tempered scale, the frequency of every note is the 12th root of 2 (about 1.05946- call it 's' for semitone) times the note below. There are two semitones from C to D, so that's s times s = 1.1225, which is a little less than the natural scale. But the interval from D to E is just the same, so you can play in D with equally good (or bad) results as in C.

Here are some frequencies in natural and even- tempered scales to show you the difference (based on A=440Hz)

    Natural (C)          Even      
                                    

C    264.0               261.6      
D    297.0               293.7               
E    330.0               329.6                              
F    352.0               349.2         
G    396.0               392.0         
A    440.0               440.0         
B    495.0               493.9         
C    528.0               523.2

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:11 AM

I don't know the term 'natural'. The frequencies you give are those I know as the just scale, which is a modification of the Pythagorean scale.

Piano tuning is a bit of a black art: the low strings are tuned flat, and the high ones sharp - this is because the low strings don't vibrate as a simple string (they're too stiff) and the harmonics are sharper than they should be. Without stretched tuning the beats between high notes and the harmonics of low notes are most unpleasant.

Stu

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

There are lots of names for various tuning sthat have been used: here's more than you'll ever want to know about it..

What is interesting is the variation in pitch as a whole. At least a semitone either way. Though how you can get pitch from old string instruments or flutes with slides I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:06 AM

What a nice site - I've bookmarked it. It's well researched and current. It seems to be ongoing since some articles are not ye available.

I was taught in physics (don't necessarily believe it) that C as the 'natural' key was 256 Hz because that was a power of 2 and easily subdivided, and that C is produced by a 32ft organ pipe which can be similarly subdivided. This was before we adopted metric, which cocks up the ideas somewhat

Stu

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:08 AM

I have a 'physics 'C'tuning fork which is dangerous in a musical household

Stu

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:01 AM

Paul
I see how the even tempered scale develops (with frequencies of ascending semitones increasing in a geometric series of 2^(1/12) but the 'natural scale'? You say

"In the natural scale, the ratio between C and D is 9/8 = 1.125, and the ratio between D and E is 10/9 = 1.111 " The full list of ratios between middle C and C an octave up is:

9/8
10/9
16/15
9/8
10/9
9/8
16/15

What's the logic or pattern here?!

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:15 AM

This is all Greek to me, but when I play blues in C on an F harmonica it sounds fine to me, but when I play blues in E on an A harmonica it don't sound (to me) quite right. Does your science have an explanation for this, or do I need to re-visit Sonny Boy tracks to re-learn my art?

Subject: RE: Irish music : why is it in D and G ?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:23 AM

It's one of many attempts to produce a scale whose notes are in tune in more than one key. It's produced by a series of arithmetical manoeuvres using whole numbers - the smaller the ratio between two numbers the more consonant they are.

C E G has a ratio of 4 5 6, so does F A C and G B D The keys of C F G work well with this scale, but other keys are progressively more dissonant.

The logic is that it's pretty close to Pythagoras without using ratios like 256/243. It's a compromise, as are all tuning systems.

Stu