BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Carol C

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM

We aren't responsible for the people who come in on our side - fortunately sometimes. And it's important to remember that the same applies to the people we are arguing with. Discussions shouldn't be seen as wars in which the only thing that matters is which side people are on and who wins, they are about exploring a topic and trying to arrive at a common understanding.
...............................................

It wasn't a question of blaming Bush as such, Wolfgang. There's a potential for anti-Christian prejudice within the Muslim tradition, in the same way that there is a potential for anti-Islamic and anti-Semitic prejudice within the Christian tradition. Sometimes things can happen that help activate that potential.

The close association between a particular kind of vocal Christianity and hostility towards Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere is one of those things. I could think of a number of analogous things in relation to anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic prejudice. Generally it is the case that prejudice serves to encourage countervailing prejudice, which will be directed towards people who have no responsibility for the initial prejudice.

The relationship between Christians and Muslims in Palestine have generally been pretty good in the past. It's worth remembering that Yassir Arafat married a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Well, thank you for trying to support me, Tam the Man, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you about everything you say.

I am very uncomfortable with the some of the things you say about Jews. Some of the most important work being done for human rights in Israel and the Palestinian areas under military occupation is being done by Jews. Some of the most important organizations that work for human rights in those places are Jewish run organizations. "Jews" are not the problem. And Israel is not the only country that is guilty of human rights abuses. Other countries are guilty of that as well (my own country, the US, for instance).

So I prefer to focus on the issues and the behavior of individuals and governments, and not on any particular groups of people, because that just leads to scapegoating and further injustices.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:29 AM

I'm sorry about that Carol C Please forgive me, I'm sorry that I upset you but as I say I was only trying to support you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:27 AM

I meant Carol C, Really you don't listen, you're just banging your head against a brick wall, I supported you in everything that you wrote, but now I don't, so Carol C P... Off

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:25 AM

Well Catol C, I don't support the government of Israel, I believe in what you are saying, and this is how you treat one of your supporters, well you can p.off.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:12 AM

You're taking the lets's-see-if-we-can-blame-Bush game a bit far, aren't you? The trend was there long before Bush, even before Bush senior. In that particular case here, the literalist/fundamentalist Muslim reading of the Koran and the Hadith that a Muslim woman should not be related to a non-Muslim man are the basic reason. These incidences have happened centuries ago. And, BTW, the very unlikely to happen with the sex roles reversed. Bad old double moral.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

I would imagine that having Bush and Co make such a noise about being "Christian", and combining that with hardline support for Israel must inevitably have some adverse effect on the way Christian Palestinians are sometime seen by some of their compatriots.

It's noteworthy that prior to the establishment of Israel as a separate state, and the ethnic cleansing that ensued, Palestinian Christians and Muslims had been getting along remarkably well for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Slow Exodus of West Bank Christians

This article points also to other reasons beside harassment and Muslim fundamentalism for the lower percentage of Christians in the West Bank mentioned in the first post.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

The Israelis keep their boot firmly on the Palestinians to prevent them from having any sort of free country, leaving them an unviable area with no sea access (they keep control of the seacoast of little Gaza), little control over water use and no political power.
Despairing Palestinians will increasingly see Christians as part of the problem as the United States government continues to support Israel and Europe does nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM

In your case, Wolfgang, I cannot.

Back to the subject of the thread...

I have read some of what has been linked to in the opening post to this thread. I notice that they are trying to make us believe that Christian Palestinians would rather live under Israeli military occupation than to live in an independent Palestinian state.

Well, now I know why Ted Junior started this thread, and why so many of the other Palestinian-bashing threads get started. They are trying to justify the occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Same old same old. I think, if Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were asked which they prefer, they would most emphatically NOT choose to remain under Israeli military occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

Carol,

you should be able to tell the difference between disagreeing how a word can be used and taking a swipe.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:33 PM

Why indeed, Wolfgang. Except that you were using the word as a way of taking a swipe at me. Following me around the Mudcat trying to trip me up is not a constuctive hobby, and I recommend that you give it up.

Tam the Man...

I disagree with much of what you have put here in this thread. Please don't include me in anything you post that in any way lumps all Jews into any specific categories. My criticisms are for the government of Israel and its policies, and those who support those policies. That's all.

On the subject of the person who starte this thread, and in answer to one of your earlier posts, Wolfgang... no, I don't regard the posting histories of the person who started this thread and Levi9909 in the same light. GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr. started this thread. Levi9909 posted to an already existing thread. I view these two things very differently, and always have.

I have noticed a pattern with the starting of Palestinian-bashing threads. Almost without fail, whenever the government of Israel is about to do or is in the process of doing, or has just done something atrocious with regard to the Palestinians, someone starts a Palestinian-bashing thead in the Mudcat. Almost without fail. If I see a Palestinian-bashing thread in the Mudcat, I go looking around in the international news sources to see what the government of Israel is up to, because I know it's going to be something bad. And a lot of the time, whoever is starting these threads uses a name, like GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr., or some other person's name, and then never posts under that name again. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that at least some of the people starting these threads are in fact the same person.

I don't know what they think they'll accomplish by doing this. It doesn't really divert attention away from whatever bad thing the government of Israel is about to do/is doing/has done. In fact, it actually focuses more attention on these things than would otherwise be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:48 AM

Evil deeds are evil deeds and shiting on people almost compleetly fails to turn them in to saints.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Crystal
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:55 AM

Given the huge controvasy it stirred up I have to say that the first post was rather Troll like!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:37 AM

Carol C,

Don't bother trying to make these folk listen to the truth because they don't want to.

as they say the truth hurts.

Tam frae Scotland

and that thing that I wrote about the Chrstians is true, but tha's to you to beleive it or not.

Goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:02 AM

from the link to the Encyclopedia Britannica on Carol's link:

Mob attack, condoned by authorities, against persons and property of a religious, racial, or national minority. (definition of pogrom)

It fits well the example in the first post here but I can't make it fit the removal of Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel. Not each wrong is a pogrom.

Why argue about the etymology of 'pogrom' when there is nothing to disagree? It is well know that it originates from Russian and then via Yiddish traveled to most European languages. Of course, it is in Wikipedia's list of English words of Russian origin and not in Wikipedia's list of English words of Yiddish origin.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:00 PM

Does it really matter who is doing what to who to determine if the act is wrong? If it's wrong, it's wrong, and if someone did the same thing to them in the past, it's still wrong.

I think we should rename this thread to, "Hey, I can be more sarcastic than you can..."

sheesh...

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Ah Carol you caught me out there, who told you I cast no reflection.
Whoo hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Giokula

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:44 PM

Look in the mirror, Mr. MacKenzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:40 PM

Just because nobody is actually getting at you doesn't mean you can't feel paranoid if you really want to!
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Nice snipe, John 'Giok' MacKenzie.

However I did look the word up in the Websters online dictionary before I posted that and this is what it says...

Main Entry: 1po�grom
Pronunciation: 'pO-gr&m, 'p�-; pO-'gr�m, p&-
Function: noun
Etymology: Yiddish, from Russian, literally, devastation

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pogrom&x=7&y=15

But your own prejudices make you want to automatically assume the worst about me instead of taking time to find out the truth.

Or perhaps you don't regard Yiddish as a real language and therefore only consider the Russian roots of the word to have any linguistic legitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:25 PM

I've told you before Carol but it doesn't seem to suit your prejudices, POGROM is a Russian word.
G..

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM

And that's exactly what you are doing to me, Wolfgang, and have been for years.

Anyway, "pogrom" is not an English word. It's Yiddish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:47 AM

Tam,

I am sure the multiple Orthodox (christian) groups in Israel will find your comment news.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:10 AM

if you're Christian in Israel, you're not very welcome. The Chistians that live there and The Palestinians Christians and Jewish Christians are thrown out of their family and they have to worship in secret in Israel because of their faith, If you believe in God and you trust him as your savoiour then you're not made welcome.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM

You're twisting the words to make your preconceptions fit, Carol.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:02 PM

The Christian Palestinians are being removed from their land because of their religion, Wolfgang. They are being removed from their land because they are not Jewish. I stand by my previous comment about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

Levy 9909, I'm sure Carol has you pigeonholed already, for your entire posting history consists of condemnations of Israelis. This record speaks for itself.

why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"? (Carol)

pogrom: an act of organized cruelty or killing which is done to a large group of people because of their race or religion.

I recommend becoming much more proficient in the English language before making these kinds of criticisms. (Carol)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:29 AM

I was just thinking there, it's the extreamists on both sides in Israel that is keeping this thing going, If we got rid of these 'people' then maybe we would have peace in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:16 AM

I think I'll just leave the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:12 AM

So we've all to be friendly with the jews, and if any says different then they are evil or racist or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:08 AM

PS

If I have upset anyone then I'm sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 07:07 AM

I mean how would you lot like it if a another set of people came into your country and started to tell you what to do, somehow I don't think that you would like it, for example there was a Palestinian family who were living on the west bank when the israeli army just came in a took over their house, and then the army told the people that they could on get into their house with the Armies permission, if they didn't say who they were they were shot, and then one day the son of the family came to his house and was shot by the army because he didn't ask for permission to go into his own house, the man and woman have had mortar shells blasted through their bedroom walls, and the downstairs is full of bullet holes, and they also have tanks coming in through their back garden.

But if you want to support the jews then that's up to you.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Levi9909
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:29 PM

I just flicked through the messages when I saw the words "Pogrom" "Christian" "Muslim" and "Palestinian". Just some quick notes here. If similar points have already been made then apologies.

There were no Christians ethnically cleansed by Muslims in Palestine in 1948. Around 800,000 Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) were ethnically cleansed from Palestine by zionist forces (from May 1948 the State of Israel) from Nov 1947 to mid 1949. During the ethnic cleansing of Arabs the zionists herded the men of two Christian villages into their churches and burned them down. The reason the Christian population has declined relative to Muslims is because Christians can afford to move away, have better international connections and their birth rate is lower.   The PLO has many Christian activists and their man in London for many years was a Christian - Afif Safieh. I know of one Palestinian Christian zionist who is feted wherever he goes (in the west that is). Where are the rest speaking out against Muslims?

Honestreporting.com is a zionist organisation. You might just as well ask Ariel Sharon is he's a war criminal and then believe him when he says no. He has been denounced as a war criminal by a former Israeli Prime Minister (Moshe Sharett)and the Israeli Supreme Court and he lost a libel action against the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz when they called him a war criminal.

Running with reports from the Jerusalem Post is also risky for truth seekers. It is just about the most right wing newspaper in Israel and used to be owned by the owners of the Telegraph here (maybe it still is).

Shatila and Sabra were not simply the culmination of an escalation between Palestinians and Lebanese Phalangists. The Israeli army let the Phalangists into the camps and lit up the sky with flares so that they could see what they were doing while they massacred the refugees. No-one knows for sure how many died. Estimates vary from 900 to 2,000. I do know from the Jewish Chronicle that 9 Jewish women were killed. They fled Palestine in 1948 with their Arab husbands. Shatila and Sabra is by no means the worst of Israel's crimes. In fact to highlight individual crimes misses the point that Israel is a colonial settler state based on segregationist laws and ethnic cleansing. Having that structure in the 21st century makes Israel unique as no other state exists on the same racist basis that Israel does.

I like to write about Israel on my blog and I welcome comments that are not deliberate lies, racism, insults or time wasting.

Shalom

Mark Elf
Jews sans frontieres

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:45 PM

I need to spend some time reading the links and doing some research of my own before I feel comfortable commenting on it. I am, at this time, a bit more concerned with the hurricane situation just a few miles down the road from where I live, but I'll get to it when I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

When people are cleared from an area because of their RELIGION, that is a pogrom.



Your statement:"By the way, beardedbruce, why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"? "

I have never commented one way or the other. You seem to ask why I have not so stated.

My statement:"By the way, CarolC, why is it that you don't call the removal of Jews from their land on the West Bank by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 "Ethnic Cleansing"? "

I point out you have not to my knowledge ever stated this point- NOT that you do not do so, but that I have never observed it, as you have never observed me calling the removal of Christian Palestinians by the Israeli government ANYTHING. Neither is to the point of this thread.


Now, about those Christians being murdered and/or driven out by Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:39 PM

...and I would like to point out the fact that it was the person who started this thread who used it in reference to people who are not Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:38 PM

Pogrom is a very loaded word. People should be very careful how they use it, John 'Giok' MacKenzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

Well, do you call it "Pogroms" when the government of Israel does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

Giok,

Stop annoying CarolC with the facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM

Oh dear you've got Carol going on her favourite subject now, I shall not fan the flames but would like to point out that the word 'pogrom' is a Russian word meaning riot, and it was applied to a series of attacks by Russian civilians on Jewish people in the mid 19th century, which the authorities refused to do any thing to stop. Since that time it has come to mean almost solely attacks against Jews.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM

I argree with CarolC, and I'm a born again Christian

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:22 PM

EXACTLY


"By the way, beardedbruce, why is it that you don't call the removal of Christian Palestinians from their land by the government of Israel, "Pogroms"? "

How do YOU know I DON'T call it that?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

My last was in response to this from beardedbruce:

By the way, CarolC, why is it that you don't call the removal of Jews from their land on the West Bank by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 "Ethnic Cleansing"?

And my response to this...

You say so, it MUST be true. I know no-one on Mudcat has ever told a lie...

is this...

Certainly not you, beardedbruce. But there is plenty of documentation, even from Israeli Jews, and even from the government of Israel, about
that. And I have already posted quite a lot of it in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

How do you know I don't call it that, beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:13 PM

Now, about those Christians being murdered and/or driven out by Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

You say so, it MUST be true. I know no-one on Mudcat has ever told a lie...

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

As far as I am aware, all the Palestian homes that were destroyed were ones that were associated with terrorist incidents, bombmaking, and smuggling arms- which was done primarily my Palestinian Muslims.

This is totally wrong. Many homes have been destroyed to build roads for settlements, to build the settlements themselves, and also to build security fortifications for the settlements. And it's been both Christian as well as Muslim Palestinians who have been losing their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

By the way, CarolC, why is it that you don't call the removal of Jews from their land on the West Bank by the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 "Ethnic Cleansing"?