BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina

Subject: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:10 AM

I have been a student of astrology since the 1970s. Through reading astrological books, and articles, and consulting with 'real' astrologers I have understood more about what makes me tick, and why I tend to act and respond certain ways. Astrology has also helped me to understand why certain situations continue to happen to me, and why I continue to attract certain kinds of people in my life {and why certain kinds of people are attracted to me}.

For those who say that astrology is nonsense, I say that you are entitled to your opinion. Astrology is not a religion for me, or a science. For me astrology doesn't have to make rational sense, though it may make more sense than I know. I don't need to know why astrology works for me. Astrology works for me because it works.

Given my interest in astrology, it was only a matter of time that I would seek out information on the astrological meaning of Hurricane Katrina, and its aftermath in New Orleans and the US Gulf States.

This thread provides an opportunity to share thoughts, theories, and information on the astrological, karmic, and spiritual meanings of Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath.

This thread also provides an opportunity to share any coincidences that you or others have noted between Hurricane Katrina and other catastrophies or historical events.

Given some people's views on astrology and karma, I feel compelled to say that this thread is absolutely NOT an attempt to trivilize this horrendous disaster.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone who has died or suffered loss as a result of this tragedy.

If others post on this thread, I hope that they also mean no disrespect to victims of this catastrophy.

I also feel compelled to say that this thread is not an attempt to broaden the scope of the "blame game" or minimize the responsibility of people who should be held accountable for actions taken and actions not taken.

Having made these introductory remarks, I'll start the ball rolling in my next post, and invite others to join me in this conversation.

Thank you.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:30 AM

By far the best online essay I have found on astrology and Hurricane Katrina is found at http://astrobarry.com/

I am taking the liberty to post the text of that entire article which was updated Sep 5 2005.


"Deep Shit

I've been dragging my feet, procrastinating, avoiding sitting down to write. My subject matter troubles me. New Orleans, along with many other Gulf Coast communities, has been devastated.

Luckily, I don't charge myself with that strange modern journalistic duty of play-acting emotional neutrality (or, worse, conveying an authentic numbness) when discussing such truly terrible circumstances. I needn't pretend to be impartial or stoic. I needn't pretend all catastrophic events are equal to me. I love New Orleans, and I'm sick to know one of my favorite places in the world is gone, at least as I knew it.

New Orleans is fantastic, but let's be honest… it's always thumbed its nose at mainstream puritanism, serving as a rather defiantly impolite (or downright scary!) shadow-side to how contemporary America prefers to see itself. New Orleans is a city that drinks and drinks, pedestrians holding their 'go-cups' and motorists heading for the drive-thru daiquiris. The cuisine is so deliciously decadent, you hear your artery walls harden with that fatty-deposit aftertaste as you eat. Dead bodies reside in above-ground crypts, not hidden from sight, while their disembodied souls spook the town as ghosts and goblins, as the polymorphously perverse living beings, men and women, remove their clothes for anyone offering a strand of cheap plastic beads. The witches devilishly cackle in the back.

New Orleans is one of those places where visitors grant themselves the leeway to behave as they never would at home—freer, wilder, dirtier—and then, when they return to their proper and correct lives, act as if none of it ever happened.

And oh yeah, there's lots of poor people and black people, too.

New Orleans, as I've just described it, conjures the astrological Pluto, god of the underworld. Pluto embodies those scary psychological urges within all of us, the ones many have a hard time consciously accepting in themselves. The lust. The envy. The force to dominate or submit. The drive to shove mortally unhealthy food down our gullets 'til we puke, and then to do it again. To get shit-faced and smoke and fuck. To flirt with death, as we fear it. We seduce it. We invite it to our bedroom, then beat it senseless. Our blood boiling so hot, we just know we could kill someone… that is, if someone doesn't kill us first. And in case we're civilized enough to suppress those barbarous compulsions in our own behaviors, evidence of their existence is everywhere—in the nasty gonzo porn, the big-budget shoot-em-ups, the news of suicide bombers and serial killers and environmental toxicity, the lifeless bodies and their spectral remnants.

…For the United States, race and class hang just over and under and to the side of our national consciousness. Like Pluto waiting in the shadows for the right time to unleash the destructively ugly truth, racism and poverty always threaten to soil the whitewashed image of America, dare they bust through the Lohan-and-Hilton-ridden veneer. In our unprecedented prosperity, we can afford to export freedom (in the form of cargo pants, customer service call centers and armored fighting vehicles), yet somehow cannot spare a dime to feed and care for our own people. We parrot the 'nation-of-immigrants'/'melting-pot' line, while unimpeded access to good jobs and good housing and good schools—not to mention the basic right to vote—remains a fiction for certain groups of people of certain backgrounds from certain neighborhoods.

Then Hurricane Katrina hits, and this cover is breached along with the levees, drowning us with glaring reality. The victims being shown on TV are Americans—poor and mostly black Americans who didn't evacuate because they had nowhere to go and no resources to take them there, and who still, a week later, wait for food and drinkable water, if not outright rescue from waterlogged shacks. By the way, this catastrophe zone we can't stop watching isn't in Haiti or some faraway African township, as we might imagine since we've never seen such images of ourselves before. It's here. It's us.

The astrology too perfectly illustrates the significance of what's happened. On the day Katrina landed in New Orleans, transiting Uranus was exactly conjunct to Pluto in the natal chart of the city (first incorporated: Feb 17 1805) at 8 degrees Pisces. This, incidentally, happens only once every 84 years or so.

Transiting force Uranus brings sudden dramatic shocks, abrupt departures from the prior status quo that promises enlightenment in the midst of chaos because everything's been so irreparably broken wide open that there's no possible retreat into former normalcy. Uranus's current position in Pisces (2003-2011) adds particular poignancy, considering its rulership of both the water supply and of oil and gas. Back in early 2004, in describing Uranus's entry into Pisces, I mentioned, 'I wouldn't be surprised if one or more major accidents or disasters affect significant water, oil or gas supplies.' Eerie how Katrina's wrath has affected the availability of both water (ironically, of course, as there's 'water, water, everywhere, and not a drop to drink') and gasoline (which has skyrocketed above $3 a gallon in many places).

And when the Uranus-powered storm plugged right into New Orleans's natal Pluto, it pushed all the shadow stuff up from beneath the surface. As disturbing as it is, there's hardly a more vivid visual representation of Pluto's rising than the sinking streets of New Orleans turned to a river of mucky squalid death, sewage and corpses a floating invitation for disease and more mucky squalid death, hungry dark-skinned marauders roaming the flooded city, looting and raping, fighting for survival or vindication or some convoluted combination of the two. Uranus hit the Pluto spot, and it all came up… the city's dark matter, which corresponds to a matching core inside every of us. Secretly, we all rage at injustice, and instinctively await our opportunity to even the score. We all lust. We all shit. We all die.

Hurricane Katrina and the mess that is New Orleans will not go away any time soon, even once they start to clear the carnage and pump out the noxious water. The pathetic government response to saving its own people has exposed the ugly underbelly of this country's treatment of its poor and its black. Looking at the astrology, transiting rabble-rouser Uranus also triggers the United States' natal chart, forming a jolting consciousness-raising square to its natal Uranus. This is big astrological news for the deep emotional character of the country, and you haven't heard the last of it."

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:42 AM

Here is an online article that provides some historical perspectives about Pluto:

P L U T O   I N   S A G I T T A R I U S

Pluto enters Sagittarius on January 16, 1995. Pluto re-enters Scorpio on April 21, 1995 and enters Sagittarius for good on November 10, 1995 (Pluto then stays in Sagittarius until 2008). Therefore, 1995 was a year of transitioning from Pluto in Scorpio to Pluto in Sagittarius.

On a personal note, Pluto in Sagittarius involves each person feeling that they MUST find out what truth is for them. Whether this is through philosophy, religion, higher learning, or their own personal quest people will feel a compelling drive to find out the truth.

Since Sagittarius rules politics as well, Pluto in Sagittarius demands leaders who are truthful and have a fiery enthusiasm. They demand leaders who promise that they will not be encumbered by bureaucracy or regulations. During this time we will see political problems and want to set up reforms. One radio station has a motto coined during this time: "Speak truth (Sagittarius) to power (Pluto)".

Pluto in Sagittarius is a time of openness to new ways of thinking, new ways of looking at the world. Commitment is a problem and the side of each of us that wants to be free to travel from place to place or lover to lover is enhanced during these years.

Pluto in Sagittarius, among other things, is the reality T.V. we are seeing, where "reality" (Pluto) means "gritty truth in a foreign land" (Sagittarius). During past periods, Sagittarius has been associated with muckraking -- with opening up corruption. The muckraking today has more to do with physical muck. But people are also demanding (Pluto) openness and truth from people in power.

The history of Pluto in Sagittarius follows. At the end is a summation of what patterns emerge from these periods.

The last eight Pluto in Sagittarius periods were:
1749 to 1762
1502 to 1516
1256 to 1270
1010 to 1024
764 to 778
518 to 533
272 to 287
26 to 42

-snip-

Click HERE to read historical descriptions of Pluto in Sagittarius.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:46 AM

Nice to see superstition is alive and well. Pity you couldn't have predicted Katrina before it happened rather than afterwards. I'm quite good at predicting the past too, I read the toilet before I flush it.

What's next, and when?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:50 AM

Here's two points that I think are coincidental about Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath:

1. Hurricane Katrina struck the US Gulf states and the USA is involved in an "international" war in the Middle East Gulf states.


2. During his administration President George W. Bush is experiencing political problems as a result of his administration's response or lack of response to Hurricane Katrina. GWB's father, former President George H. Bush also suffered politically as a result of his response to a natural disaster-Hurricane Andrew.

****

Do these coincidences mean anything? Maybe. Maybe not. But I do find them ironical.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:58 AM

Paul Burke,

There are some people who use astrology to predict events.

I don't use astrology that way.

To paraphrase the title of the article that I quoted shit happens.
And "shit" is a very plutonian word.

It is probably true that I turn to astrology after the fact as a means of understanding why things happen.

As I said in my first post in this thread, it works for me.

I'm not prosletizing here. If you don't uderstand astrology, or if you don't like it, that's your perogative.

To each his [or her] own.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

karma
    n : (Hinduism and Buddhism) the effects of a person's actions
         that determine his destiny in his next incarnation


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

You are saying that the people who suffered and died the way they did in New Orleans is because of actions they took in an earlier incarnation? Do not be surprised if people find that grossly offensive, especially those who regard all of this as superstition.

If that is not what you mean, what does 'karma' mean to you in this context?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

Correction:

"It is without a doubt true that that I turn to astrology after the fact as a means of understanding why things happen."

****

Note that I said that "I" turn to astrology.

I'm not encouraging nor am I demanding that others do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:19 AM

Guest: I am talking about the USA's karma and not the individuals.

I believe that the USA has not sufficiently lived up to its words and potential with regard to race and poverty. IMO, we have allowed corruption to flourish in our government, and in our mass media.

As I see it these failures can result in karmic occurances such as the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina {more than the Hurricane itself}. The coverage of the 'shit' that has literally and figuratively happened in that aftermath has [to use a 1960s Black power expression] "pulled the covers off" of things many Americans would prefer not to think about. As a result of a mass media which [at least initially] appeared to grow some balls, we were emotionally confronted with horror and death and destruction, and malfeasion in high places. We witnessed or read about the horrendous treatment of the poor in New Orleans' Superdome and convention center. And we saw the dead floating in the streets, and the dead laying on highways, and alligators eating bodies. And hopefully it digusts us and makes us angry enough to do something about what our nation has become.

Pluto in Sagittarius describes death, and shit uncovered. And Pluto {which rules Scorpio} also symbolizes the phoenix rising from the ashes.

Can our nation become better as a result of this catastrophy whether it is karmic or not? I hope so. I know that it has indirectly struck me hard and made me more determined to do what I can to look inside myself and work outside of myself to make a difference in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM

Hello all,

Well, I don't think the non-believers to be any more enlightened than the believers when it comes to astrology. I don't think they should try and hijack a thread by suggesting azizi is ignorant, stupid, or superstitious because of her belief system.

Astrology "works" (if that is how one wishes to describe it) as mythology because that is it's function. Mythology is sometimes superstitious, sometimes deeply philosophical and profound. Myth is the ground from which all philosophies and religions have grown.

Hence, I wouldn't be so glib about it if I were you Paul. It is too easy in this age of uber rationalism to be dismissive of myth and mystery, whether it be astrology, Hinduism, or Christianity. If you knew all the world's histories (rather than just official ones) you would also know the modern science of astronomy does have it's roots in astrological myths. Our gods and goddesses of the sky are known constellations. The ancients were able to track the movements of heavenly bodies with enough precision and skill to create megalithic monuments like Newgrange.

Nothing to scoff at, unless you think you can do better, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST,Not scoffing, but!
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:52 AM

The ancients were able to track the movements of heavenly bodies with enough precision and skill to create megalithic monuments like Newgrange.

They may well have *chosen* to build Newgrange for reasons of myth (though we don't even really know that for certain). However, they were only *able* to build it because of measurement and observation - science, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:58 AM

That's correct, but what's your point? That we shouldn't "accept" mythology because it isn't science? That's pretty pointless. Mythology is the foundation upon which all the world's cultures have built their societies. If you choose to be ignorant of that foundation, it's your choice, but don't condemn people out of your choice to remain ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:08 AM

it's beginning to get lively here, isn't it? *g*

(I am not any of the anonymous posters, by the way)

Of course all world cultures are founded on mythology. I for one have reason to be grateful for the fact - I gained a place a college at 11 through an interview in which I gave an ex tempore account of four major families of myth. I may well have forgotten a great deal of it but don't assume people people who reject mythology as an explanation are ignorant of that foundation, any more than I assume people who accept it are ignorant of science.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:09 AM

Astrology is quite good at postdictions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:11 AM

It's also very simple to interpret what azizi is talking about, in mythic terms.

The astrological transit she has brought up is the coming together of Uranus and Pluto.

Uranus (mythology)
In Greek mythology, the primeval sky god, whose name means 'Heaven'. He was responsible for both the sunshine and the rain, and was the son and husband of Gaia, the goddess of the Earth. Uranus and Gaia were the parents of Kronos and his fellow Titans, the one-eyed giant Cyclops, and the 100-handed Hecatoncheires.

Pluto (mythology)
In Greek mythology, lord of Hades, the underworld and also his original name. His Roman counterpart was Dis (also Orcus). He was the son of the Titans Kronos and Rhea; and brother of Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Hestia, and Demeter. He abducted and married Persephone, daughter of the goddess of agriculture Demeter, causing winter on Earth; Persephone was eventually allotted six months of each year in Hades, and six with her mother.

Now add to those meanings a huge hurricane, a major US city known for it's decadence, in it's path--in a region of the US dominated by ignorance and superstition (Christianity), ruled by the lords of hell (first demagogue Democrats, now demagogue Republicans), all occuring in the sign of Pisces, the sign astrologers assigned to ruling the ocean (through Neptune) and the oil industry.

Add to the fact the "defenders" (National Guard) of the realm were long absent on their emperor's quest (Operation Iraqi Freedom), and hence unable to guard and protect the hearth and home when it suffered a calamity, and you even begin to see shades of Homer surfacing out of the muck and debris.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM

Given my astrological birth chart, for those who know astrology, it's not surprising that Hurricane Katrina would have "deep" meaning for me.

Natally, I'm a Sagittarius with Aquarius moon and Virgo rising.

Some of the astrological placements for Hurricane Katrina are conjunct my natal planets-for instance my natal sun is Sagittarius 24 degrees; and transiting Pluto is currently 21 degrees retrograde. Also, my moon is Aquarius 15 degrees and transiting Uranus {which rules Aquarius} is at 15 degrees retrograde {an exact conjunction}.

****

I don't worry about folks who say that astrology is supersition.
I know there is more to life and science then what we can see with our eyes, hear with our ears, and touch with our hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:21 AM

"...don't assume people people who reject mythology as an explanation are ignorant of that foundation..."

I usually don't, DMcG. I usually wait for them to demonstrate their ignorance first, and then point it out to them. :)

Now, what say ye to my mythological tale of the Katrina calamity? I spun it off the cuff, without so much as a first cup of coffee I'll have you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:27 AM

In what sense is mythology an 'explanation' of anything? Having got your explanation, what can you do with it? It's on a par with 'explaining' that it rains because water falls from the sky, that it's a hot day because of the high temperature, that Grandad died because he stopped breathing. In short, it's a waste of effort.

Unless, of course, you can predict the next big problem. Which (except for luck) you simply can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:27 AM

Katrina certainly did a great deal to expose the otherwise unheard from and deeply poor residents of New Orleans. Such folks live in all our major cities and live mean, little lives with great vulnerability to natural disasters. Water flushed them to the four corners of the country. Let's hope the dislocation has worked to improve their circumstances as time passes.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:33 AM

Here's more on the opportunities that we have to learn from this tragedy {US karma}:

The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory

For those of us who know our history, we can recognize that there are times when the system breaks down, and the results are so egregious that it inspires sadness, horror... and a will to change things.

One such episode was the fire at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory in NYC in 1911. It kicked off widespread reforms in working conditions, municipal inspections of building safety... and inspired more widespread acceptance of workers' unions.

The disaster in New Orleans... and the Gulf region in general (because the horror stories that are certain to be uncovered in the hinterlands are yet untold) may provide an opportunity for real change.

This is an historic opportunity to challenge the blind faith in the power of the markets and free enterprise to solve all problems. To challenge the notion that government should be small enough to be drowned in a bathtub. To remind people that there's unfinished business in alleviating crushing poverty... and creating greater economic justice in America.

I love that the title of this diary is "Left Behind"... because I woke up this morning thinking about that: the fact that the theocrats are going to blame the victims.

We need to call out our government's lack of preparedness to evacuate the many, many poor of this region on the fact that any plan that relied on the ability of people to remove themselves who didn't own a car... or did, but couldn't buy a tank of gas on short notice... was no plan at all.

And anyone who tries to weasel out of this administration's obligation to have such a plan is the lowest of the low. Have they no shame at all? At long last, have they no shame?
Left Behind" indeed. But this administration isn't Jesus, and this wasn't the rapture. And being poor isn't a sin.

Those who were left behind didn't choose their fate. They didn't deserve their fate.

And those who have been defunding government by cutting taxes on the rich and have been using the apparatus of the state primarily as a means of enriching their friends... and those apologists who have been enabling them... they all need to face the wrathful indignation of decent people everywhere.

It is our obligation to make sure that generational reform is born from this disaster...
by Malacandra on Fri Sep 2nd, 2005 at 07:06:49 PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/31040/36581

****

For me this comment describes Pluto in Sagittarius.

As some have opined, the USA faced two tragedies-one was a natural disaster called Hurricane Katrina and the other was the human made disaster of the Aftermath of the hurricane.

Sometimes we are forced to face things we'd rather not see. Katrina's aftermath forced this nation and this world to do that. Can we do better than this? I hope so. We have the opportunity to build upon the ruins. But what will we re-build and how will we re-build New Orleans? Will re-building projects benefit the poor or will they provide more wealth for those who are already rich [like Halliburton?]

If the rich get richer and the poor get let behind again imho,
we would not have learned the lesson that we should have from this tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

That's right! I forgot to add that the calamity being discussed had resulted in a great migration, fleeing the storm and it's aftermath.

Paul, does the word "epic" mean anything to you? How about the word "apocalyptic"?

I think you misunderstand the function of mythology. It isn't to "predict" the future, or state the bleeding obvious. It is to make some sort of spiritual sense out of a world/universe that is often cruel, arbitrary, and incomprehensible but also fiercely beautiful, nurturing and oh so easy to love and lust after!

Not meaning to speak for azizi (she does just fine speaking for herself), but that is what she started the thread to do. To make some spiritual sense, using her mythic belief system, of this apocalyptic disaster, which has been epic in it's proportions. There is no need to belittle her because she doesn't share your worldview. She went to great pains to say she has no problem with anyone else's worldview. So why can't you be respectful? If you think it's all a bunch of hooey, why not be a gentleman, keep your thoughts to yourself, and just stay out of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:46 AM

Thank you Guest 12 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:55 AM

In 1970 I wrote this poem

Sagittarius:
to scratch out words
because they have no meaning
and cannot hold
the colors that you feel.
to make designs from ink stains
to mark the silence.
and capture it
then let it go
because it screamed.

****

There are many experiences that words can not capture. There are no words that can convey the depths of my sorrow and outrage at the Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. This is not only because I am African American and so many of the victims were Black. It is because I am human.

I have been sooo depressed and so angry and so very much wanting to scream because of the disasterious Aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
Sagittarius sign people are known to search for meanings. Astrology helps me see the big picture. As I have said repeatedly, astrology works for me, and [but]does not have to work at all for others.

It is possible that reading about the astrological implications of this disaster can help others. That is why I started this thread.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:58 AM

my chart says I am unlikely to put much stock in these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:48 PM

Azizi, thanks for this thread. You are a brave woman. There are many Mudcatters who used to post about astrology and other spiritual matters, but they often were shouted down and have left off posting much anymore.

I like the way you are handling those who ridicule. Thanks, again.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:55 PM

"Sagittarius sign people are known to search for meanings"

and a list of 124,816 NON Sagittarius people who also search for meanings, as well as 271,328 Saggitarians who don't, wouldn't make the slightest difference in this search for ways to apply metaphysical generalizations, I suppose.

We see what we wish to see......I have never seen a serious practitioner of astrology who did not emphasize the supposed 'positive' aspects of their sign to justify their analyses.

ah, well....I am aware that my petty little nit-picking will never sway a vote or change a mind one way or the other.

I go away now.

"Everyone needs something to believe in...I believe I'll have another beer."

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

I believe you'll have another beer, too.


WE ARE NOT ALONE!

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

or, for LH,


We are not a loan, but a gift.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:27 PM

We are a gift, true; but one from ourselves to ourselves. Compared to which, even the stars may tremble.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM

"were shouted down and have left off posting much anymore"

And Mudcat's never been better...

Astrology... May as well 'divine' from chicken-guts... or fart smells...

What a colossal WOMBAT

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM

Bill D.

It's true that I try to focus on the positive in life. When it comes to my self, in order to grow spiritually, I also have to recognize and seek to eradicate that which is negative within me. Astrology is one resource that helps me do that.

Notice that I said "me".

My compliments to you if you have found something that works for you or if you don't need some thing [or idea or philosophy or world view or religion or whatever].

****

beardedbruce,

I agree. We are not alone.

Though I'm not sure that that has anything to do with astrology.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:47 PM

"were shouted down and have left off posting much anymore"


not true. They've taken over the mudcat. Still trying to make it into their own image.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

"not sure that that has anything to do with astrology"

Which is perfect seeing as astrology doesn't have anything to do with anything....

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

Astrology. Last refuge of the feeble-minded. If it helps you make sense out of your life, Goddess help you. I certainly don't want you helping me with anything. But call Nancy Regan. She'll listen.

Yeah, I know. It's just for you. HOpe it stays that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:51 PM

Azzi...if your search uses the stars & planets as 'metaphor' and simply helps you focus on issues, I might wonder why such an arcane & complex form, but I could just shrug. If you, as some do, take Astrology as literal and revealed truth,....well..

(I wish I knew the names of the other babies who were born on the 4th floor of Mercy Hospital in Denver, Colo, at or near 5:27 AM, May 20, 1939, so I could see just how close to MY characteristics they have developed. (....some might hope there were NO others who got this particular set of influences! *grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:00 PM

Kripes, BillDee! If I remember rightly, my sisters, "the twins," were born at Mercy, BUT it was several years later, a month or so earlier and they aren't at all like you!**bg** (Didn't know ya were a "native!")

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:22 PM

Astrology, Azizi, is another of those things I would like to believe in. (And before anyone else charges me with it, I agree it is because I would love to find some definitive order in life, some great absorbing thing I can rely on.)

On the one hand I have seen a number of 'coincidental' events and other things that make me sit up and take notice, for instance, when I first met a co-worker's husband I remarked on how much he reminded me of my brother. He was taller but he had the same walk and he talked the same way, he twisted his face the same way when something funny was said. Imagine my surprise when it turned out that he and my brother had the same birthday!

And I have found over and over again that other Sagittarians and I seem to understand each other without flaw. (And I agree that when one knows someone else's birth sign, one might easily relax - thereby bringing about the ease that I note.)

On the other hand, I am leery of blanket statemsnts and beliefs. To me there is nothing scarier than fanaticism- something that I define as a "knowledge" that one is correct. Questions, to me, are far safer.

You say that this transit occurs "only about every 84 years". Question: What happened 84 years ago, in 1921? And 84 years before that - 1837?

Those are not dates that have gone down in history.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:44 PM

Even if one doesn't believe in it, one could consider the possibility that it has some esthetic qualities that some people might find pleasing, like a painting or a sculpture. Even if some people don't like some of the paintings or sculptures in the world, I can't imagine that they would go around with a can of spray paint, putting moustaches on all the ones they don't like. If one wanted to be really mature about it, one could look at it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:08 PM

(kat...I was in Colo. just long enough to almost slide off icy Battle Mountain in my mothers car...I guess I was 6-7 months old..) I still have cousins out there.

" several years later, a month or so earlier and they aren't at all like you!"...wow! That sure proves that...ummm...well....

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:13 PM

wow, maybe it was the 3rd floor! Mercy! I'm surprised I survived! I guess it was in the stars! *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:26 PM

Bill D, sounds like quite a story there: "I guess I was 6-7 months old..) I still have cousins out there."

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM

well...*grin*..I hope it didn't sound like cause & effect!...my mother's sister lived 'out there' the last 40 years of her life...in Rifle, Glenwood Springs, and finally in Pueblo. Her 3 boys still live in the state. I had an uncle in Salida for a few years in the 50s.

The ice incident was my mom driving to my dad's next assignment in Winter.....the car hit some ice, did 3 slow spins, and stopped with one rear wheel over the edge. She said I never even woke up.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:27 PM

I don't know whether astrology 'works' or not, but if it works for you, good. (Some folks don't care for music and they feel it has no intrinsic value--but it does have charms to soothe the savage breast.) Just because I don't believe doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means that I don't believe. Typical POV from someone born under the sign of Maternity Ward.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: mg
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:49 PM

I am a Cancer with a fair amount of Leo as I recall..I was born July 9 1948 in Longview Washington USA I think around 5:30 a.m. I like advance planning for this type of thing...I believe in rapid response and essentially martial law and ease up as soon as possible. I believe in problem solving..I basically don't like politics or group think...when people guess my sign they always guess right for some reason. Does any of this sound like a Cancer approach? I guess it is safe to say I don't look for meaning...solutions yes..improvements in everyone's situation yes...but it wouldn't occur to me, as a cancer???? to look for meaning, at least while there is still a job to be done.... mg

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:55 AM

BillD, if she was in the Rifle/Glenwood Springs area, I've most likely got folk who knew her. My brother and sister were both born in Glenwood. There's on old lady who is 90, living in Rifle, who is a veritable fountain of Rifle/New Castle/Glenwood history/gossip/etc. I'll be going to visit her, soon, if ya want me to ask her anything.:-)

Sorry, Azizi, didn't mean to wander off the track.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 06:44 AM

That would be astrology pronounced bollox.

What hope for humanity when seemingly intelligent people believe in this baseless drivel?
The idea that people get what they earned in an invented previous life is just fucking offensive. Karma and re-birth was invented in India to justify the racism that put the aboriginal dark skinned people at the shit end of a very long stick.
In a wonderfully evil moral slight of hand, not only do you get your reward after your dead, but it's your fault your in the shit in the first place.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:06 AM

What a rude bunch of horse's asses. You come into a thread about a subject you don't like, just to spit on the people having the conversation.

What jerks.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM

Just because I don't believe doesn't mean it doesn't work.

but also: just because I believe doen't mean it works

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:06 AM

OK, we get it boys. You don't like astrology, and you love to insult and belittle people who do.

So why don't you be good little boys, and run along now and piss on someone else's parade?

Well Wolfgang, Clinton, Paul, DMcG, PiedPiper, BillD, and all you other bigoted and intolerant men? How about it? How about you do the decent thing, rather than the indecent thing, and butt out?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:05 AM

Who's lost their rag then? Nobody's insulting you; we are merely pointing out the irrational nature of your belief in astrology. It could be funny, but irrational beliefs kill and maim people- if you don't believe me, just google for witch trials. You are just childish and self- indulgent, spouting nonsense then getting all hissy with people who notice.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:50 AM

I dont believe in astrology, that doesnt stop me from reading my stars for the day!

freda

(pisces)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:58 AM

Me too. (pisces..it must be a trait?)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

Hmmmm. Someone is all hot and bothered about the astrology nay-sayers. Is this an anonymous guest, or a regular member seeking cover because they don't want to admit publicly to their beliefs in astrology? Hiding out and protesting is a way to have your cake and eat it, too, but it is no way in which to convince anyone that your word is worth listening to. I have skipped to the front of the line because frankly I'm not interested in reading all about astrology, though for those who are, Azizi has provided links. Which is better than the anonymous guest in there slugging it out with everyone who has registered disbelief.

Way up there this guest posted:

Mythology is the foundation upon which all the world's cultures have built their societies. If you choose to be ignorant of that foundation, it's your choice, but don't condemn people out of your choice to remain ignorant.

You have the cart way out in front of that horse, guest. First off, you're conflating your "ologies." Mythology is not the equivalent of astrology, and you seem to misunderstand mythology. "Mythology," in many circles, is a term used to step down the sacred into the profane. Christianity calls religions that came before "myths" (if they're being polite) because that is a way to dismiss them as false, not the real way to their god (who is, in their view, the only god. They call them "cults" if they feel threatened.) Mythology is also a term used academically to codify various archic belief systems that were very ancient (thus incompletely understood) or smaller autochthonous religions with some form of written or artistic history (also incompletely understood). Myths are collected representations of belief systems but because they are archaic, the interpretation of those beliefs and the reading of cultural use of such things as metaphor or irony within that religion is entirely incomplete.

"Myth" as a word is far-reaching, is nevertheless frequently misused, and has been misapplied here.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM

Well Wolfgang, Clinton, Paul, DMcG, PiedPiper, BillD, and all you other bigoted and intolerant men? (13 Sep 05 - 08:06 AM )

Wikipedia: the word bigot is used as an ad hominem abusive to terminate a discussion without having to consider the actual arguments voiced.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:46 AM

Quit talking about Uranus as if it is to blame.

There are plenty of other ass holes that coincidently coincide with the diasater.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:27 PM

Wolfgang, you believe everything you read in Wikipedia?

Pied Piper, reincarnation is a belief system that dates from the oldest known written and oral traditions of ancient people, NOT just something invented in India. If you'd like to open your mind a little, you may read more about it, by scrolling down on this page to Ancient Belief Systems. There you will find that even the Catholic Church taught about reincarnation up to the 4th century. Please note: I am NOT saying the author of those pages is a definitve authority, but she does have sources and quotations from each belief system. I found her site through google.

Also, do you go out of your way to go into shops which sell goods you don't believe in or like and tell them how "fucked" they are? Why do you and others feel so compelled to try muck up others' threads?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM

To those who say I'm foolish for studying astrology, I say
"Sticks and stones may break my bones
but names will never hurt me".

For those who are interested in this ancient study, I say "More power to you".

For those who could care less about astrology, but want to belittle it and talk bad about those of us who are "in to" that subject,
I say "It don't make me no never mind". And I hope that those folks who are interested in astrology will not let what others say
disturb their peace.

My purpose for starting this thread was to share several articles that I've read on the subject of astrology & Hurricane Katrina.

If others want to use this thread to discuss the pros & cons of astrology, then do your thing.

It's a free country-at least that's what they say.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:12 PM

this is a **public** forum. As such, you are open to replies to anything posted. There IS a private way to conduct discussions if you can't abide any comment on your views. Just be a member and exchange 'private messages'.There are also forums where almost everyone agrees with you.
It is certainly possible to discuss astrology, and almost anything else, in an environment where everyone just nods and says, "oh, yes, that's like what happened to ME!"
   I like Mudcat because it's not a one issue forum where ideas are just spouted and never debated.

If you read carefully, I try very hard to indicate my opinions without insult or personal attack. I dispute IDEAS, not people. I have very heated exchanges here with people whom I like and respect...some of whom I know personally.

All this being said, there is a pretty big difference between discussing a subject or set of beliefs, and advocating them...'preaching' about a subject in here is not a good idea, whether it be religious or political or metaphysical. To her credit, Azizzi, is NOT doing that! It is clear she has a serious interest in Astrology, but she is not INSULTING me by suggesting that I am missing a bet by not signing up....if she had, my remarks would be a bit more...um....pointed. *grin*

All you 'guests' need to be aware of the reality of an 'open' forum, and what constitutes congenial behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:13 PM

I see we cross posted, Azizi...thanks for a sensible reply

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:34 PM

Wolfgang, you believe everything you read in Wikipedia? (Katlaughing)

No, I'm far from it, but this particular quote fits well some here which are very quick with the word 'bigoted'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM

Oh yeah? Well if astrology doesn't work then explain "a pair of star-crossed lovers took their life", and then they DID. Ha! Refute THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

I think it is a fascinating approach. I wonder how Pisces vs. Taurus vs. Aires say look at the problem differently...I wonder who the people are who plunged right into rescue operations not waiting for approval from Mama Fema...I would bet Taurus but maybe not.. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

I don't know, either, mg, but they should've had an Aries at the start...Aries are great for getting things going!:-)As it was, they had a Scorpio.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Grab
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:07 PM

I don't have a problem with astrology. However, I do have a problem with a lack of logical reasoning.

New Orleans, as I've just described it, conjures the astrological Pluto, god of the underworld.

Nope. You could just as easily say "people are fighting irrationally and killers are roaming the streets, therefore Mars rules". Remember that Mars was the serial killer of that mythology. Pluto actually was a cold-blooded kind of ruler of a (literally) dead-end world. That whole description is conflated with the Christian concept of Hell, and would have had no relevance to the Romans, whose mythology these gods came from.

In other words, it's been written by someone without a good grasp on mythology. Are these the people you trust for your interpretations of events?

As regards the "ancient" nature of this study, I'd remind you that Pluto wasn't discovered until well into this century (1930 IIRC), so any significance attached to it can't have been thought up any later than 75 years ago. And even the name "Pluto" was a fairly arbitrary choice (unless you believe there were deeper forces at work when the name was chosen, which is a belief system and not something that can be proved/disproved).

Pluto enters Sagittarius on January 16, 1995. Pluto re-enters Scorpio on April 21, 1995 and enters Sagittarius for good on November 10, 1995 (Pluto then stays in Sagittarius until 2008).

If you had Pluto entering Sagittarius on that day, during the hour of the flood, then maybe you'd have an interesting coincidence. But this happened TEN YEARS AGO and will still be the case for another THREE YEARS after the event!

Imagine how many other newsworthy events have happened in that time. The Asian tsunami could just have easily been tagged with that, couldn't it? (That's assuming that your description of the significance astrologers attach to the event is correct - I couldn't say myself.) Why should the New Orleans disaster be particularly remarkable amongst the many, especially since the number of people who died there is insignificant compared to the numbers killed in all the other tragedies (natural disasters, man-made disasters, and wars) over the last 13 years?

It is probably true that I turn to astrology after the fact as a means of understanding why things happen.

And therein lies the problem.

As previous posters have stated, religion and mythology (and hence astrology) are a great source of comfort in times when you feel helpless. Astrology explicitly says that life is pre-ordained and we can't do anything about it, so it isn't our fault that we're in the shit (to be Plutocratic ;-). In an ancient world with no support structures and no hurricane warnings or whatever, that kind of fatalistic comfort was the best you could do.

But for the relatives of people who died in New Orleans, this isn't much comfort. Fatalism excuses the criminal negligence by FEMA, US central government, armed looters and NO citizens who failed to leave in time after the hurricane warnings, who all had shares in a man-made disaster. Fatalism tells you "it would have happened anyway". But why would it? The hurricane was natural, but the disaster was 100% man-made, and being man-made it was therefore 100% avoidable. And whereas primitive man with primitive mythologies had no-one to blame for his cave getting flooded, modern New Orleans residents can point the finger fair and square at individual people who made decisions that led to this all happening.

If you're not saying "it would have happened anyway", then why would a predictable astronomical event has any effect on this? And if a predictable astronomical event had an effect, why do you (and others that you've quoted) make the connection?

Please don't think I'm saying this to get at you. It isn't any kind of attack on you. Rather, it's an attack on the faulty logic that has people trying to use astrology to try and make sense of past events. It may be fun, and if it gives you pleasure then by all means keep doing it. (Writing computer software gives me pleasure, and that's a pretty bloody illogical state of affairs! ;-) But it isn't, and can't ever be, a useful guide.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:22 PM

Graham, most folks whom I know who enjoy studying astrology are most definitely NOT fatalists. There are innumerable ways to *interpret* astrology. Everyone I know who is "in to" it, sees it as an indication of possible influences, NEVER as absolutes. I've encountered more "absolutists" in the medical world (often proved wrong) than in circles of astrologists.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: TIA
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:54 PM

I am truly curious. This is not a nasty challenge, trap or test. I will not even post a reply...

I was born March 18, 1961 in Southern New Jersey.

Can any astrology believers tell me three or four specific things about me?

(e.g. what do I do for a living, am I married, and to what sort of person, what's my favorite type of music, have I ever been incarcerated, have I ever been in the military, or the Boy Scouts, or a Glee Club...)

Thanks

(truly truly not a challenge, and no "nyah-nyah" will follow - but you have a chance to make a believer)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

Try a google of

astrology, charts

It asks for info only you would have. Many of the sites are free, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 06:35 PM

Nah...I want a real person to take a stab at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:45 PM

If anyone does, it should be done by PM, imo. Sounds too much like bait to me considering the tone of some of the postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:54 PM

yYou're married, you have two kids, you play a long neck Troubadour banjo, your name is Tim and you were born under the Exxon sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:02 PM

Your wife's father is a doctor and you area bird watcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:07 PM

nO WAIT, your favorite is a Wildwood Minstrel LONG NECK BUT YOU HAVE A gOLDTONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:48 PM

Ia a Wildwood Minstrel Longneck better?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:44 AM

You need to give your time of birth, TIA, if you want a comprehensive reading from someone who knows what he or she is doing.

(I can tell you one specific thing about you from the information you gave. You are younger than me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:39 AM

"You need to give your time of birth, TIA, if you want a comprehensive reading from someone who knows what he or she is doing."

As we know astrology is an ancient practice and we have clearly missed in the acheological record all those accurate ancient clocks and global time system necciserry for people to know the time of their birth.

BS indead.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:13 AM

Surely you jest, Mr. Piper. People were making very sophisticated astronomical measurements in many ancient civilizations. I suspect the practice of astrology was probably was an offshoot of some of those practices.

At any rate, that's what I've been told by people who do charts. They say you need the time of birth to know what your rising sign is, and a bunch of stuff about which houses your planets are in, or something like that. If the people who invented astrology didn't have access to telling time in one way or another, I would imagine they wouldn't have come up with the idea that the time of one's birth determines one's rising sign, etc, and the question would be moot.

Here's an (oversimplified) example of how this would work... I'm a capricorn with leo rising. My sun sign alone doesn't match up in many respects with the way I tend to approach things and the way I tend to look at things, but when the leo rising is added and adjustments are made, there is a pretty close correlation with a lot of my tendencies. Here's a for instance... from time to time, I tend to seek out the limelight (that's a leo thing). But because of the capricorn tendency to not want to be the center of attention, when I get there (in the center of attention), I find that I wonder what the hell I was thinking by putting myself in such a position, and I want to go hide in a shadow somewhere (capricorn).

My son is leo with leo rising. He loves nothing better than being in the spotlight, and never regrets it once he's there.

Saggitarians like to take food off of other people's plates and eat it. I don't know why, but almost all of the ones I know do that. Aquarius women are usually in a constant state of crisis. If there is no crisis brewing in their lives at any point in time, they will (unconsciously perhaps) create one. Aquarius men are not like this (except for a gay friend of mine who is an aquarius... he is like aquarius women in that regard).

I don't know if I believe any of this astrology stuff, or if maybe I believe some of it, or none of it. But I don't really care because I like it. I find it to be interesting and fun, and it has esthetics that I find pleasing. And coincidence or not, it's a source of amusement for me when my daily horoscope matches what happens to me on any particular day (sometimes even down to specific events). I don't use it to make any decisions (except maybe sometimes when it urges caution about something... and then I will try to be vigilant about what is being cautioned. I can't really see any harm in that).

I like circuses, too, and I play the accordion. I figure, to each his or her own.

Karma, on the other hand, according to my own beliefs, is simply the rules of the game each of us sets up with the decisions we make and the actions we take. If we behave dishonestly, for instance, we set up the rules of the reality we live in to be one that includes dishonesty, and in such a reality, we will tend to see a lot of dishonety around us. If we behave with compassion, we set up the rules of the reality we live in to be one that includes compassion, and we will tend to see a lot of compassion around us. So from my perspective, when we experience the cause and effect of karma, it's just that we are experiencing the effects of the rules we put in place ourselves. Which isn't to say that every bad or good thing that happens to us is a result of karma. There can be many other reasons why things happen the way they do. Karma's just one part of the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:23 AM

I promise. It's not baiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 09:25 AM

There is a great deal of difference between predicting the day of a solstice or an eclipse to knowing the time of day accurately.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Peace
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 09:56 AM

If ya know when the rooster crows, when meals are and when the sun goes down--what more do ya need?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM

The earliest clocks measured the sun's position in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: TIA
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

00:02:00 AM btw.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

Nearly all the testable predictions of astrology have been tested and found to be wrong.
The only interesting thing is how a belief persists despite the absence of empirical support.

Old thread

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Alice
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:00 PM

When I was fresh out of college, the first illustration assignment I had was illustrating the zodiac for a computer astrology company. I researched each sign, started into a 15 or so year interest that had me delving deeply and hoping it would be the answer to many of life's mysteries (what sign is compatible with me, why did a boyfriend/boss/co-worker behave the way they did). I eventually learned more about random word generators, cold reading and the history of astrology. Now I can see it for what it is, a system of randomly generated words and phrases that have no bearing whatsoever on humans and their activities. People identify with what is a "hit" and ignore the "misses", so they give credence to it.

ASTROLOGY FACT SHEET
http://www.ntskeptics.org//FACTSHTS/astrolog.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for the refresh, Wolfgang. I think this bears repeating, too:

I would ask, again, why is it necessary for the sceptics among us to denigrate, make assumptions, and generally treat with disdain, the spiritual beliefs/practices of some of the rest of us? I thought Mudcatters had more respect for one another's diversity than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:50 PM

Kat, it also bears repeating what you have posted immediately before you posted the above quote for the first time:

Some of us are serious students of ancient metaphysical teachings which do delve into the practical application of metaphysical laws, which are proven to us through scientific experiments, which we conduct together and on our own.

Science and scientific experiments are always open to debate. 'Prove' and standards of it are also a matter of open debate. Declare it a religion and you'll hear no word from me (as long as no statements of fact are involved). The combination I hate the most is if someone makes testable and empirical statements but falls back to 'spiritual beliefs' when challenged.

One can't have it both ways. Stay on your side and you are safe from any rational critique. Cross the line and your statements are game. Someone believes in God, for instance, no problem, someone claims a young age for the Earth then no recourse to 'spiritual beliefs' or however a Christian for instance might express that will prevent critical comments.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM

katlaughing=defender of the irrational and ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:24 PM

14 Sep 05 - 04:10 PM, I prefer ten katlaughings to one of your kind.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

Thanks, Wolfgang.

I cannot declare my metaphysical beliefs and the teachings I study to be a religion as they are not. I understand and respect what you are saying, though we will never agree as to what is provable and in what way.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Grab
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 06:32 PM

Kat, even if you only consider them as "possible" influences, you're still considering the possibility that a predictable planetary movement was a cause of effect X (whatever's being analysed). Even if you consider multiple possibilities, that's still fatalism, in that if *one* of them has to have an effect then you're down to a multiple-choice solution which restricts the possible outcomes. If an available option is that none of them might have an effect, leaving events unconstrained - well, why try predictions in that case, because that's just a fancy way of saying "don't know".

And the "multiple-choice" version is logically worse, in that it allows the user to select their own best-fit to actual events. If things follow what you expected, you got your prediction right. If it didn't go to plan, you obviously picked the wrong predictor, didn't you? So the error was in your choice of predictor, and not in the prediction method itself. :-)

Carol, accurate measurements of time in Western and Arabic cultures (from whence the Western astrology system came) are pretty recent. Until the pendulum clock appeared in the mid-1600s, no-one could work out an accurate time except from astronomical measurements, which took a very long time to work out. So that dates astrology's interest in the time of birth to at the latest 350 years ago.

As a bit of fun, it's fine. It's fun looking at the stars pages in the paper, like it's fun reading Snoopy or Doonesbury or whatever. No worries there. But if someone says that Snoopy cartoons affect world events, well you might start to be a bit worried.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:10 PM

Ok, astrology experts... do you know if Grab is correct in saying that the concept of the "rising sign" only goes back as far as 350 years ago? Or does anyone know of any references to rising signs prior to that time?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM

*reading regularly, but mostly sitting on my hands*

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:47 PM

Grab/Graham, I do not use astrology at all, esp. not to "predict." I find it interesting. I, in no way, know enough about it to use it in any way.

You may find the following interview with Sri Chimnoy of interest. I am NOT endorsing all that he says; I just found it and read it, today. Click Here.

Thanks, Bill, for sitting on yer hands!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:32 AM

So that dates astrology's interest in the time of birth to at the latest 350 years ago.

As one previously invited not to comment in this thread, I hesitate to post again ... but I didn't hesitate very long!

Although accurate clocks only go back 350 years or so, it doesn't follow that astrology can only have regarded time of birth as significant for that long. It would be possible to make the case that the difference is one of degree: You can get one quality of analysis based on knowing only the day, a different quality knowing the time as roughly early morning, late morning, afternoon, evening or night, another quality again when the precise hour is known, yet another when we know the time down to the second and, who knows, even the millisecond.

As you know, I don't subscribe to astrology at all, but they is no inconsistancy between requiring an accurate time nowadays with the limitation on knowing the time accurately way back when.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Alice
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:19 AM

Astrology used the time of birth to cast charts much before 350 years ago. There is a very good history of astrology at the link I posted earlier.

Astrology Fact Sheet

It's a great article.. well worth reading for those who are interested in discussing astrology.

To quote in part...
"The oldest horoscope that has been discovered dates to April 29, 410 B.C. A horoscope is simply a crude
chart which indicates the directions in which the various planets lie, relative to the zodiac, at the time of a person's birth. During the classical era
dominated by, first, Greece, and then, Rome, Babylonian astrologers (called Chaldeans) set up shop in most large urban areas throughout the
civilized world....
Later, the Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero wrote, in 44 B.C., a devastating critique of these
astrologers, which is still worth reading today....
The Crusades brought astrology back to Europe where it co-existed uneasily with Christianity until the dawn of the age of science. The explosive
growth of scientific astronomy from 1600 A.D. paralleled an explosive decline in the fortunes of astrology. By 1900 a French encyclopedia
accurately described astrology as a vanishing cult with no young adherents.

Astrology made the strongest comeback in all its history after World War I, when British astrologer R.H. Naylor invented the daily newspaper
astrology column.

The paradoxical result is that the heyday of astrology was not during the benighted Middle Ages, when the average person was sunk deep in
ignorance and superstition, but rather in the 20th Century, when most citizens presumably know the basic facts of astronomy and are aware that the
planets are worlds similar to the earth rather than god-fires in the sky...."

Suggested Reading:

      Abell, G.O. and Barry Singer (Eds.), Science and the Paranormal. (Scribner's, N.Y., 1981) See articles "Astrology" and "Moon
      Madness" both by Abell.
      Carlson, Shawn, "A double-blind test of astrology," Nature, 318:419, Dec. 5, 1985.
      Cohen, D. Myths of the Space Age (Dodd, Mead, New York, 1967.) Chapter II.
      Culver, Roger B. and Phillip A. Ianna, Astrology: True or False? A Scientific Investigation. Prometheus Books, 1988.
      Dean, G., "Does astrology need to be true? Part I: A look at the real thing," The Skeptical Inquirer, Winter 1986-87, p. 169.
      Dean, G., "Does astrology need to be true? Part II: The answer is no," The Skeptical Inquirer, Spring, 1987, p. 257.
      Gauquelin, Michel, Dreams and Illusions of Astrology. Prometheus Books, 1979.
      Hyman, Ray, "Cold reading: how to convince strangers that you know all about them," The Zetetic, Spring/Summer 1977, p. 19.
      Lindsay, J., The Origins of Astrology. Barnes and Noble, 1971.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:31 AM

If I have pisces rising in Uranus, should i see a doctor?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:05 AM

No, you should join a circus. There's money to be made there Ted.

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:29 AM

Here's another online article about astrology and Hurricane Katrina:

Neptune Spawns Katrina

And here is an excerpt from that article:

"New Orleans, Katrina's point of attack on the U.S. coastline, is also the nexus of major oil and transportation systems. When this category five hurricane struck, not only did it create a huge regional mess, but the aftermath sent gas prices soaring across the country, and will likely lead to a significant recession beginning in a few months. As the most devastating natural disaster in U.S. history, the planetary indicators will be plainly visible in the U.S. horoscope.

All the key words describing this colossal tragedy – flooding, oil, victims, uncertainty and chaos – speak of Neptune. New Orleans itself, sitting below sea level, and the soul of the Blues, resonates with Neptune, the God of the Seas. In the Scorpio Rising chart (2:21 pm; July 4, 1776), transiting Neptune is right on the U.S. fourth house cusp, exactly opposite the Midheaven.

A fundamental principle in traditional astrology is that major events correspond to major transits to the angles. The four angles represent the points where spirit manifests in the material world. Without the connections to the angles, nothing of historic significance can happen. While slow-moving Neptune was passing over the U.S. fourth house cusp, along came Mars to trigger the hurricane. Mars and Neptune were exactly squaring each other when Katrina landed....

The Astrology of Hurricanes
Like other destructive hurricanes before it, Katrina arrived when all the outer planets were forming close aspects to each other. In Katrina's case, Jupiter and Neptune were trine, while the destructive duo Saturn and Pluto formed a tri-octile (135º aspect). Saturn was also opposite Chiron, which historically has been involved in these celestial currents.

Hurricane Andrew (August 24, 1992) was the previous holder of the most destructive, in terms of property damage. Andrew took place as Jupiter trined a Uranus-Neptune conjunction. Saturn and Chiron opposed each other, as well, with Pluto widely squaring both. Hurricane Camille (August 17, 1969) held the title before Andrew, and this one featured a Jupiter-Uranus conjunction opposite Chiron, and Saturn precisely tri-octile Pluto.

Naturally, the outer planet alignments influence the entire global weather system, but what fixates these stresses into the United States are the concurrent hits to the U.S. horoscope. Katrina is a perfect example, since transiting Neptune was (and is) right on the U.S. fourth house cusp. During Andrew's rampage, Chiron was right on the U.S. Midheaven (with Saturn opposite). Camille featured Saturn exactly conjunct the U.S. Descendant...."

Source: Michael (WolfStar) O'Reilly's NewsScope September 5, 2005

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:43 AM

*hands getting restless and impatient to ask if (Wolfstar) O'Reilly called anyone with a clear warning*

(one hand escaped)

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: GUEST,Uneventful times
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

Micheal (Wolfstar) O'Reilly says "Without the connections to the angles, nothing of historic significance can happen." That is a claim to be able to identify periods where he can guarantee 'nothing of historical significance' will happen. Care to press him for some examples over the next few months or years?

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

My chakras are strongly predicting a 100th post is coming my way...

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:50 AM

God I'm good at this Astrology lark!

Subject: RE: BS: Astrology, Coincidences, Karma & Katrina
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:56 AM

chakras are not astrology.