Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Mooh
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:14 AM

Blues plagiarist is nearly an oxymoron.

Page can't be all that bad, he just got some award in Rio for humanitarian work of some sort. Remember, when much of the rip-offs happened, these guys were young, naive, drugged, full of themselves, and not capable of great business and ethical decisions. Not living in the real world didn't help them, but even Keith Richards managed to acknowledge his sources.

I wonder what they'd do if they could do it all again?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:16 AM

The basics of metal guitar all come from blues guitar--same for rock--simple as that. You want lessons?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:32 AM

No, I don't need lessons. Even as a teenage would-be guitar hero I quickly figured out there was a clear difference between blues-based hard rock like AC/DC and the (apparently) more classically influenced compositions of the aforementioned Richie Blackmore not to mention Iron Maiden and (even more far removed) Slayer. I'm sorry, but the blues influence just isn't there. The guy who gave me lessons played in a metal band, and he borrowed material from flamenco music, fusion jazz but never the blues.

Unless playing with a plectrum and using barre chords and single-note runs are soley derived from the blues, then I really don't think that "the basics of metal guitar all come from blues guitar."

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Euro metal
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:53 AM

ALL heavy metal is stolen from the Blues..


is it ?.. bollocks !!!!!..


..what a narrow minded mean-spitited pointless prejudiced assertion..


can just as easily make a case that ALL heavy metal
is derived from european polka..

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

The basics of metal guitar all come from blues guitar--same for rock--simple as that. You want lessons?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:42 PM

We heard you the first time, care to respond to our points?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:44 PM

Ah, with the Scorpions it depends what years. In the 70s their lead guitarist (I've stupidly forgotten his name) combined two styles, classical and Hendrix-style blues. Michael Schenker was also heavily blues-based. Which brings up the subject, did they credit their sources?

Iron Maiden and Mettalica both were heavily influenced by Thin Lizzy early on, who did blues a-plenty, but they (Maiden and mettalica) certainly moved on.

Saying that all the music and technique were stolen from black people is narrow-minded. Shall we acuse them of stealing from the Spanish and Germans?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM

That was Ulijon Roth who played those wild, drug-induced (?) classical-psychedelic-blues guitar lines on early Scorpions LPs. My friends and I called him "Uli", and he definately had a sound of his own, regardless of who influenced him. From whom did 'steal' the the classical influence?

To directly lift words and melodies from another musician's composition without giving credit is indeed theft. To absorb influences from antecedent forms and to make something new out of this is the essence of creativity. Big difference between the two.

Yeah, Thin Lizzy definately took a lot from the blues. I wonder, was Phil Lynott stealing from himself?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

Yeah, Uli. Can't sing to save his life, but what a guitarist.
Oops, I wasn't clear enough. I ment did the Scorpions in their 80s phase credit sources, because several songs are almost note-for-note of melodies like Black Velvet (not the trad) or Skynyrds' Simple Man. Uli didn't steal, he drew from influences to make his own stuff. Sorry about the confusion.
Phil (my favourite) was one of the most creative musicians ever, IMHO.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

A few years ago, Merseyside DJ/Rock Writer, Spencer Leigh, had an on-going feature on his Radio Merseyside show wherein listeners would write in informing Spencer of songs that they thought were "ripping off" earlier songs. One such song was Fleetwood Mac's " Albatross", which it seems is very much like a Chuck Berry song. Being very astute, Spencer wondered why Chuck hadn't caused a fuss about the matter, and suggested that maybe Chuck had "borrowed" his version from an earlier source. Sure enough, another listener suggested that a 1940s tune by T-Bone Walker was Chuck inspiration!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,German Techno Metalhead
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

Rammstein .....


blues !!??????

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:15 PM

Less said about Rammstein the better.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 05:47 PM

Yeah - the first thing that conmes to my mind when Yngwie Malmsteen tears into a solo is, "My God, he's channeling the spirit of Robert Johnson!!"

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 06:17 PM

All Jimmy Page fans really should watch this little gem:

A very young Jimmy Page

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: TinDor
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 10:12 PM

Guest wrote:


"I don't consider Led Zeppelin metal music ...it is hard rock. Zep didn't give birth to metal - I think Ozzie and Black Sabbath did that with those "E down to D and back up to E" progressions, not to mention Ozzie's references to Satan and all, that have become part and parcel of any subsequent metal music, whether the reference is valid or not...(then Mettalica took that one step further with the "E to F" chord progression). Zeppelin's roots in the blues are enough to disqualify the music as being "metal." "



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...what? The very first "Metal" regardless if you think it was Zeppelin or Black Sabbath, clearly is rooted in the Blues. I think people time and time again make the mistake by continuing to defing Blues by the 12 bar progression because it's more than that. BLues is also the vocab of it's playing and it's colorings.


Anyway, here something for ,from the members of Black Sabbath and just exactly what their roots were... I'll highlight the main parts


From the book
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath : The Battle for Black Sabbath

Quote:


" David Donato brought many attributes to the table. Not only could he sing with the power and style required but he unquestionably looked the part too. "Vocally my timing was good. Personally I was into that Dio and Gillan type of style so that was a big plus for them. In my club days I was a Robert Plant clone—happy to admit it. I was also big on Ronnie James Dio, even back to the old Elf days. Lots of power and melody I like to think. I had done my modelling so for that I obviously I had to look good. I was 6 foot 2 inches and kept myself in good shape. I certainly have a presence. It's like Halloween every time I get on stage. From that point on we just rehearsed at the Rockhouse. I remember the Olympics were happening at the time and Bill and I would travel into rehearsals together, driving past the Coliseum, because we lived very close to each other, Bill on Seal Beach and me on Huntington Beach. This went on for a good many months. Just solid rehearsing." For Donato this would be an opportunity to witness some of his favourite musicians at close quarters. "Tony is a stylist completely on guitar. When you hear a riff of his you know exactly who it is and there are very, very few guitarists you could claim that of. It's interesting the Heavy Metal label the band has because Billy always said they were a Blues band. They knew all of that old stuff, had a great knowledge of it."

This observation about Sabbath's Blues heritage is poignant. Often overlooked it is vital to the understanding of Black Sabbath's immensely successful formula. They didn't title their fledgling act The Polka Tulk Blues Band for nothing. Geezer Butler backed this up, taking a momentary dip back into time when asked a question on the musical values of his 1997 solo record 'Black Science'. "I like to experiment, we all do. When I think of the hours and hours we have spent just jamming along in the studio. That's how we relax, have a good old blast with your mates and forget about everything else. If we could get paid just for that I would be very happy. Sometimes you forget why you're there. Oh, we have to make an album? Rehearse for a tour?

Most of our stuff goes back to 12 bar Blues really Our younger fans find that surprising sometimes. . When we were kids we started out playing along to those old records in just the same way people like Jimmy Page did. Back in those days that's how you leant to play. We taught ourselves. All our early gigs were Blues songs and that is what we were—a Blues band. We would be happy to just jam instrumentally for ages. I suppose the transition to Heavy Metal was through Tony and I developing these very simple three chord Blues riffs into something of our own. It was like, OK, where can we go with this? Alvin Lee of Ten Years After had a big effect on us too. Alvin was doing the same thing, taking the Blues but turning it around into something different. It's the same for Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull and Deep Purple too, all those bands of that period, just expressed the Blues differently. Its all a tradition of the Blues so give us half the chance and we'll spend all day playing Willie Dixon. People seem surprised by that but I tell them, Heavy Metal would not exist without the Blues. Black Sabbath would not exist without the Blues.

Tony Iommi., talking to the author backstage at the Leicester De Montfort Hall in 1986, would acknowledge the Blues as central to the very essence of Black Sabbath. "When we started both Geezer and I were playing guitar and we learned everything we knew from the Blues.. Anyone who was serious about an instrument was either learning Blues or Jazz. The Blues is a great place to start, to build on and find your own style." Did Tony find a grounding in the Blues the reason for a dearth in quality of latter day Rock acts? He was diplomatic. . "I would recommend it to anyone. Don't pick up a guitar and try to play my riffs. Get hold of some old Howlin' Wolf or Willie Dixon records first. That's the way to start. Ask Jimmy Page, Brian May, Rory Gallagher or Gary Moore or any of those guys.The thing is there are so many bands around today I can't keep up. There were not that many bands around and it was very creative because everyone was trying to find something different. Everything was based on the Blues though—everything.

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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 03:16 PM

The acoustic Blackmoutainside , wasn't that taken from Bert Jansch's version of Blackwaterside ?

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 03:20 PM

I never bothered to read the thread.
Jimmy Paige was a wonderful artist, end of.

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Sep 09 - 08:19 PM

Well, okay... Yeah, there was a lot of folks going back and takin' lyrics and a few licks from the old blues players and then addin' their own take on it and then saying that what they were playin' was the blues??? Huh??? Not really...

Dylan was more a blues player than Zephin or the Stones and Sabbath, IMHO, wasn't even close to playin' the blues...

I mean, when one really listens to the blues and studies it then it is a real leap to think of any of these bands a blues bands 'cuase they weren't... Mightta riped off some lyrics and few licks but didn't even do that all that well...lol...

Bobert (blues player)

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: TinDor
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 04:32 AM

Robert wrote:


"Well, okay... Yeah, there was a lot of folks going back and takin' lyrics and a few licks from the old blues players and then addin' their own take on it and then saying that what they were playin' was the blues??? Huh??? Not really..."

There is a reason all of these groups were descrives as "Blues Based" and it wasn't just because of taking a "few lyrics and licks". They used the vocab/coloring of the Blues

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"Dylan was more a blues player than Zephin or the Stones and Sabbath, IMHO, wasn't even close to playin' the blues..."

I disagree. IMO, there was nothing bluesy about Dylan's guitar work in the Delta based style sense..Dylan had more in common with the East Coast Blues guys like Blind Willie Mctell. Zeppelin, Stones and Sabaath were based on the Delta and Eletric Chicago/Texas style.

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"I mean, when one really listens to the blues and studies it then it is a real leap to think of any of these bands a blues bands 'cuase they weren't... Mightta riped off some lyrics and few licks but didn't even do that all that well...lol..."

Again, these bands /players (Clapton, Hendrix, Zeppelin, Sabbath etc...) were all playing blues based guitar stuff but with tons of amplification and distortion along with Jazz influenced improv.

It's pretty clear as day to hear the blues vocab/colorings/stylings when these guys play the guitar.Some examples..



Sabbath

BLACK SABBATH NIB 1970


Black Sabbath Live 1970 Paranoid)

Zeppelin,


Led Zeppelin Black Dog 1973

Led Zeppelin-I Can't Quit You Babe)

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...now, where the first "Metal" (usually attributed to Sabbath) comes in is when Sabbtah started making songs based around the "Diabolus in Musica (Devils Interveral)/TriTone/Flatted 5th combined with scary and Satanic themes, is when the first "Metal" was born. As seen below..

Sabbath @ around 2:06

Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath (live paris 1970)




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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM

Interesting, but virtually every working rock/blues guitarist who started playing after 1965 borrowed the style perfected by Eric Clapton in 1965. He of course borrowed his style from a number of USAian blues players and made it sound convincing only those of us who stood within 10 feet of his amp during his stints with John Mayall's Bluesbreakers can appreciate that!

Anyone see Jimmy Page in Neil Christian's Crusaders? I did!

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: olddude
Date: 06 Sep 09 - 04:30 PM

Well in this life I am not sure of much of anything. But I am sure of one thing and that is our Bobert knows the blues. He is the best there is at it.   So I gotta go with Bob's opinion - for me anyway

Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:08 AM

I know that when Alan Lomax interviewed Muddy Waters on the planation in 1941, Muddy sang a song that he said that he'd made up but when questioned by Lomax he said that he'd learned it form Robert Johnson( or maybe Son House). Muddy wasn't trying to steal the song but clearly he thought he had made it into his song by personalizing it by rearranging/adding verses and adding his interpretation.