Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:07 AM

Oh I forgot to say Why bother because you don't listen, so Goodbye.

And I'm not taken this personal I'm just trying to explain why some people need to use books that's all.

And As I said opera singers and claacical musicians and some choirs don't get paid and yet the use songooks, so if they can use songbooks why can't folksingers.

I mean some of you use songsheets and yet when I use a songbook, I use them and when I'm at the club sometimes the paid artist ask me if they could use my musicstand.

So I must be doing something right. And one of the reasons I repeat myself is because when I'm on this website, something else comes to my mind that I need to say.

Goodbye

Tam frae Scotland,

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:09 AM

I forgot to metion that on a Tuesday night at a pub in Irvine near where I live, we have a session, and quite a few us there use songbooks, and no one complains and we've doing this for 10 years.

Tam

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:20 AM

Apples and oranges, Mate.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:49 AM

I'm just a simple man, I have simple means, I'm just a stupid git are you now please with that. I mean what's the use I feel as I'm skelping my heid against a brick wall, you have you're opinions and I have mine.

Tam frae Scotland the land of the Trolls.

I just get worked up that's all, and when I do I just keep repeating myself, I have a mental Illness, I'm not looking for any sympathy because you lot wouldn't give it, but I just worry all the time that's all.

I see a psyhcirtsts, you a head doctor, I there are sometimes I just can't cope with this.

I'm sorry if I have upset you but if I have then I'M SORRY.

TAM THE MAN

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:59 AM

That's all true.

Tam the man

I'M SORRY I BELIEVE IN LET BYGONES BE BYGONES, LET'S AGREE TO DIFFER.

As I said I just get angry sometimes, and then I just rant and rave and write things down before thinking about it.

Tam the man

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM

I just go off my head sometimes that's all.

Tam The man.

I'm sorry if I was being a troll, I didn't mean to I just got carried away, I realize that I was just being daft, I'm all right now, as I say I just get carried away and I just don't when to stop. I'm sorry.

Tam the man,

Some of you will be saying aye he should be carried away in the back of a wee white van.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:31 AM

Tam - very good luck to you mate - each to their own. I use a music stand and songsheets, mainly because I have to draw on anything up to 350/400 songs in order to keep the performance varied (I play the same venues on a regular basis). If I'm doing a one-off paid gig then I practice a couple of dozen songs so I can perform without the props, but as I posted earlier I have seen pro's use sheets + stand and turn in a brilliant performance (including the lady I referred to in my opening thread post.)

Enjoy the music Tam and don't take comments made on the forum too seriously or personally..
Cheers

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: kendall
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:19 AM

Tam, do it your way. The rest of us do.

However, if you want approval, don't ask for an opinion.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:25 AM

PB,

"'You don't go to a restaurant and expect the Chef to be sat their reading a recipe book'
Several do! - Some should! - Same meals every time I go to the restaurant about time they they got some different ones"

I should hope the chef isn't sitting there going. "Oh, hell, it's a quarter to one!!! They'll be wanting lunch soon. Quick, where is that chapter on bearnai- urr, uh, umm, bearnais sauce, yes that's it. I guess."

Nothing wrong with a chef experimenting or reading recipe books, but I hope he does it well in advance of actualy cooking the thing.

"'You don't go to college or school and expect a teacher to be reading everything out of a book'
Oh come on you're telling me my old history teacher actually new all that history?"

I'd rather he works out what the subject is and reffers to the book only when the need arises. Droning on with head stuck inside the textbook is the way to send a class to sleep.

"'You don't get in an aeroplane and expect the pilot to be reading "how to fly a plane"'
OK yea! but he has got auto-pilot"

Auto pilot doesn't mean pilot substitue. He had better know his stuff!!

"'When you go and watch a play you don't expect the actors to be reading there lines from a book'
What about the little bloke at the front doing all the asides, and the auto cue?"

It's a memory aid, in case they forget the lines. Better that than stopping in the middle. "Umm, err, anyone out in the audience remember how Richard's Soliloquy goes?"

"'SO when you go to a concert/gig you don't expect the artist/s to be reading from a songbook.
Because as is the case for all of the above they should be professional enough to have learnt there craft'
So why is it that the Folky that has learnt his "craft" a set of songs, introductions, comments and backings is being criticised for repeats - would you do the same to the examples above?"

People are complaining about performers give you the exact same set-list, the exact same routine, the exact same 'spontaneuos' banter or asides every gig.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 11:13 AM

I'm not looking for an approval, Kendall. however Lowden, thank you

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 11:21 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 11:48 AM

I've written everything I care to write on this subject. If anybody needs a refresher, it's all up there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

Same here Don - this guy's just a troll looking for a reaction. Maybe this thread should be closed.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

Please believe me when I say I'm not a troll, whatever that means I never meant to upset anyone believe me. And what I said was true about me going off my head I do get carried away sometimes, I don't mean to be a troll.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

So this your reaction, you don't have to guts to accept him saying that he's sorry, well Tam I accept that you're sorry.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:51 PM

Thank you very much guest

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:59 PM

For Pete's sake, when you ask a question and you get half a dozen similar answeres, what more do you want?

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM

GUEST, it's not a matter of guts. it's a matter of caution and not getting sucked into a pointless argument. No apology is necessary from Tam. If he's sincere, then he'll heed the advice everyone has offered him. If so, more power to him. If not, then to hell with it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:03 PM

OK RIGHT I'LL STOP NOW OK I GOT 'ANSWERS'

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:06 PM

That's all I needed to know thank you I will heed the advice.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:14 PM

Tam the Troll, please read the next to last line of your own post on Sep 27 05 at 7:57 AM. Then count the number of times you broke your "promise".
Go back and re-read ALL your posts: You only made two points (over and over, ad nauseam)--- you have a poor memory, and you use song books/song sheets while you play.

               Billygoat Gruff (He had to deal with trolls, too)

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:25 PM

I promise this time and I mean it.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 02:00 PM

Tam the man, Just keep your promises this time ok, because you have upset some folk, you got your answer.
Tam the man, I think a troll is someone that just becames a pest, have you asked Joe Offer to close this thread.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:47 PM

I had a request to close this thread because it was getting contentious, but I can't really see a reason to at the present time.
But be nice to each other, hey?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: MuddleC
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:05 AM

Jesus H Christ!
What are you guys getting so het up about?
I look at it this way, if it is the way you earn your 'bacon', then the performance has to be a little planned. If it is to be part of a tour , well, yes it may have or , i.e be very similar, or be a repeat performance. -If you don't produce the goods, you don't get paid.
The more famous you are the more you can get away with.. to a point.

If you are singing for your own sake, but not to earn money, it then depends if you are pushing yourself or the song. If it's yourself, learn it!-look 'good', if it's the song, try to 'present' it well, and if that means words sheet or music, fine,.. do it enough times and you may even learn it totally.
But sometimes a song only gets trotted out once, just for an airing.. here I'm talking about taking one from the pages of a book where it has lain neglected for many many years. If you can sight read , okay, but as I can't, I concentrate on the keeping the melody in my head and leave the words on the paper. Some ome old songs have verry interesting timimgs and 'ornamentation', even rhyming!

I am a 'book person' and try to resurrect songs that have fallen by the wayside, I personally transfer songs that I want to do again onto 'notepad' sized sheets, bound into a small folder. When I sing, if I need to look at the words, I glance at the ones a line or too ahead of where I'm actually singing to avoid stop/start staccato .
When I listen to others sing, besides listening to how they 'present' the song, I often 'acquire' it for myself .. I don't worry if they screw up performing it, I feel justified in listening because I might not have come across it otherwise... hell, they are up there -trying when others either are scared off by peer pressure or the need to 'conform'.
If you don't enjoy singing give it up, if you don't enjoy listening, get earplugs, go to the restroom, go get another drink, you sometimes have to experience bad to appreciate good! and if the difference lies in the presence of a 'song/book/sheet so what? -go up and congratulate them for trying so hard to bring you something

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:31 AM

I was hoping this thing had died.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: MuddleC
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 10:04 AM

the music will if we don't all try in our own way. I have been to around ten different venues recently, the thing in common is the average age of the attendees, I can count the number of people under 35 on one hand, 40 needs two hands,..unless we encourage and stop bickering over stupid 'perceptions' or 'the folk rulebook' then it all goes. I'm off to the Baring-Gould study break in Devon(England) next week, where I will probably sing a few new songs.. from old books!!

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:33 AM

Someone once said of wine, "If it's not fit to drink, it's not fit to cook with." Same with songs,
"If it is good enough to to sing, it's good enough to learn."

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: MuddleC
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 07:22 PM

'If it's got no taste, we'll freeze it, hype it and sell it'

never tried decent beer then.. at room temperature, no top pressure, straight from the cask

Someone once said, ' ..for every proverb, there's another one contradicting it'

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST,weelittledrummer
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:01 AM

Just want to say I saw Eric Taylor tonight and he had a folder full of songs with him as he sang, and it was a terrific gig - totally brilliant.

Now this contradicts everything I've said before on this thread, but that just goes to show I'm an opinionated middle aged asshole, and my opinions are not really quite as devastatingly insightful as i think.

However, that said, I'm really enjoying those albums Jerry.

Check out Jerry Rasmussen everybody - he's rather good!

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: alanabit
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:16 AM

Jerry Rasmussen is one of the treasures of Mudcat. There is that fine, confident voice, which radiates contentment, the clear, uncluttered picking and the simple resonant songs, which carry their celebration of life into every corner they are heard. Rick Fielding recorded his "Handful of Songs" - and not everbody got a song on a Rick Fielding album.
His contributions to the performing and songwriting threads here are one of the reasons I log on. I am saying all this behind his back so as not to embarrass him, because I believe he is away on holiday at the moment.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:10 PM

As far as one trick pony acts go, I feel the same way about Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 07:34 PM

Trying to return the thread to its original intention - discussing variety in one's "act" over a period:

I have only been gigging for some 2 and a half years, so usually my audiences are new, so whatever tried-and-trusted sets and patter I have usually work OK there. But...

I have already had some repeat gigs; clearly, I could not do the same material, I would feel as if I am cheating people. In such cases, while I retain the strongest songs (that some people might like to hear again anyway) I try to change the patter for them, and also try to introduce something new. In a typical repeat gig I would have 30-50% "new" songs. Also...

When appearing at festivals and doing multiple sets, I try to have a minimum of overlap between them, so that audiences can come to more than one of my sets without being bored. At Otley festival recently I had 5 sets to do in 3 days (each with 7 songs). I repeated 4 songs 3 times and 3 songs twice, using in total 24 different songs. I also varied the position of songs in the set, as I tried to vary the "mood" I was trying to create with the set. Which leads me to...

...construction of a set is an art form in itself, and I have much yet to learn on this, but I already have had some useful hints from friends: Plan the emotions you will take your audience through, not just fast-slow-fast alternations. Use contrasts to great effect (a humorous or irreverent song right after a wrist-slasher). Plan in advance if you want to leave them on a "high" or a "meditative" state - both can be very effective. Plan which songs you will drop in advance and do timechecks to see if you can use them or not. etc etc.

But most important of all, I NEED to vary my sets for my own sanity and pleasure. Let's face it, if I was doing exactly the same set every time I'd get bored soon; that would in turn show in my performance (I am not such a professional that I can "turn it on" like Vin Garbutt and other masters). I need to be enjoying what I do if the audience is to enjoy it too. Perhaps that is because of the kind of performer that I am, "heart on sleeve" like.

At gigs I do not use song sheets - there have been 2 or 3 exceptions only, when I wanted for some reason to sing a particular not-often-used song at that venue for specific reasons. Typically, in my CD launch concerts at "home" I end the set with an out-of-yhe-CD song, most often the newest song I have written; the song sheet is needed then, but as it is an exception, I don't think audiences mind. But normally I would not use safety nets, because they distract and limit my ability to interact with the audience.

But apart from a gigging performer I am also a folk club member. At singarounds in my "local" clubs I like to bring out the newest songs, to "try them out", and get some early reactions. They are often in a still-evolving stage, and typically yet unlearned, so song sheets are the norm there. But in a singaround that is not too much of an issue, one is not performing so much as sharing, and I believe the other club members understand and excuse my use of song sheets at such times.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 08:58 PM

I would classify myself as semi professional - office job that pays the mortgage but I do gig once or twice a month and get paid for it. I have a song book that I bring along to use for pubs or parties (I get booked for a fair amount of "Irish themed" parties and sometimes in pubs) because I take requests, and this allows me to have a pretty extensive repertoire including a lot of songs that I don't particularly care for and really don't want to spend time learning by heart. At a pub or a party I think that is acceptable. I used to work entirely without cheat sheets but find as I get older I can't remember as many songs as I used to. For a concert, I would either use no lyric sheets or just bring along some discreet "cheat sheets" to be glanced at in case of a senior moment.   I don't think that detracts from the performance. I don't script the patter but I do have a pretty good idea of what I'll say to introduce each song. I almost never do the same set twice. At some points I've had weekly pub gigs and many customers commented on the fact that my sets were always different. Especially in a situation where you're coming back to the same place regularly, I think it's important to have a variety of songs, while always doing some songs that you know are "favorites". I've had the experience of seeing performers do the exact same set over and over and I don't like it. If I do two sets at a festival, say one in the morning and another in the afternoon, I always make sure they are completely different just in case somebody stops by to see me again. Not sure that really happens very much, but just in case!

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:02 PM

Jerry's work is awesome. No question at all about that. BTW, he's back.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 09:59 PM

This may end up a bunch of disjointed comments, but here goes:

Number one, I'm not a professional, but I AM an entertainer! When I sing, I make it a point to make eye contact with audience members, all over the house, with an appropriate smile or shrug or pensive look. And if the house is too dark to do that, I'm still looking all around as if I were actually in eye contact, and it comes across to the audience. I am telling EACH OF THEM a story, from myself.

I am not giving them "this is what's written down here in the book"; I'm telling them what I know, what I feel. No way I could do those things if I were reading the song from a book.

The essence, the heart, of ANY of the performing arts is not so much in the technicalities, the breath control say, or the voice quality, or whatever (valuable as those things may be as tools), but the essence, I say, of a performing art (acting, singing, dancing, standup comedy, magic--you name it) is the projection of the performer's personality.   
If the performer can't give his material to the audience as if it were his own, he's going to be a failure, in my book, as an entertainer.   If he CAN project his personality and make that personal audience contact, his technical shortcomings, if any, will be unnoticed, or forgotten, or forgiven.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 10:45 PM

Thanks, Alan and Peace:

Sheesh, turn your back for a minute, and people start talking about you. I guess how I feel about this whole discussions is that there are many reasons why people sing. I think of the song Bob Gibson wrote, long agao : "I Come For To Sing." That's about as simple a reason as I know... some people just like to sing... nothing more than that. If someone just likes to sing, I suppose they can rightfully sing from a book. Performing from a book is another story, in my mind, and should be done in extreme moderation.

Many people in the folk community see singing a song to others as an important contribution to carrying on the tradition and keeping songs alive. That's a valid reason for singing, too. But, if you're trying to keep a song alive, you'd better make in "alive" when you sing it. A scholarly rendition of a song for the purpose of passing it on to others probably isn't going to accomplish a whole lot... unless someone hears something in the song that makes it come "alive" for them.

And then, we all to varying degrees sing because we all have egos.

From song to song, I suppose that the reasons for singing vary, but if you're up on stage, two things are basic to a performance. Entertainment and putting yourself into the song. Songs are far more than notes and words and chords. And even the oldest songs can speak to us... the opening lines, "I woke up this morning, in the Spring of '65. I thought myself quite lucky to be found alive" rings true to me. I can feel that, and relate to it.

Most of all, you have to believe in the song. Colin K and Leadfingers were hear a couple of days ago, and Colin and I had a long discussion about believing in what you sing. I think that's all a part of ingesting a song and making a part of yourself. Just singing words from a printed page can never bring a song to life, for me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST,Rob Wright
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 06:28 AM

The duo Taggart and Wright who have been together since 1999 have NEVER repeated the same set! As their manager and roadie I have been to almost all their gigs over the years so can speak authoritatively. I try to get them to stick to a set list for at least a few gigs in a row but they just get up there and do their thing. They have themes in their banter but it is never the same and always very funny.

www.sky-web.net/taggartandwright/

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:10 AM

One thing that strikes me as rather odd. For a group of people who so value tradition, what is the aversion to repeating songs? I'm not talking about identical set lists. Some put such merit to always introducing new songs that they avoid repeating wonderful songs. If folk music had always been driven by performing in folk clubs, there would be no oral tradition, and countless songs would have been forgotten in the desire to always do new ones.

Seems contradictory to me..

A good song is worth repeating, many times.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:17 AM

the guys probably got brain damage and hasn't noticed they sing the same song all night

I had a manager like that once

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:19 AM

I agree Jerry, but I used to go to a session where one particular person had a total of about six songs that they would sing and would trot out the same songs week after week after week. When you've heard Summertime being sung every week for a year in exactly the same way it can get a little monotonous.

I always tried to keep a note of what I was singing at any particular venue and give that particular song a go by for a few weeks there. IMHO it gives more variety, both to the performer and the listeners to do that.

Subject: RE: Folk Artists - Wise up (or Fade away)!
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 05 - 08:59 AM

From GUEST 17 Sep 05 - 09:30 AM - We got this aimed very firmly at Tam the man

"Very few people use their real name here, including Tam the man. What sort of name is that? Are you in the phone book? Could I call you or visit with just that made up non name?"

Well Guest it stikes me that I can easily identify anything Tom Hamilton has posted to this forum - which is more than I can say about yours.

Secondly to the thread at large, just in case you'd be interested to know it, I think I have heard Tam the Man perform, with music stand, book of words the lot. Time and place - Marymass Folk Festival - two or three years back - thoroughly enjoyed it, the material he selects is certainly not run of the mill - good on you Tam and whatever anybody says don't pack it in.

Just to confirm - Tam you play the guitar left handed - Correct?