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Lyr Req: Vive la Rose (Emile Benoit)

GEST 17 Sep 05 - 12:27 PM
GEST 17 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM
Artful Codger 13 May 10 - 09:41 AM
GEST 14 May 10 - 11:30 AM
GEST 14 May 10 - 01:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 May 10 - 02:54 PM
Monique 15 May 10 - 01:44 AM
Artful Codger 15 May 10 - 02:33 AM
Bob the Postman 15 May 10 - 09:07 AM
Beer 15 May 10 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 15 May 10 - 11:12 AM
bobad 15 May 10 - 12:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 May 10 - 12:39 PM
Bob the Postman 15 May 10 - 01:35 PM
meself 15 May 10 - 02:15 PM
gnu 15 May 10 - 03:04 PM
Beer 15 May 10 - 03:31 PM
gnu 15 May 10 - 03:37 PM
Artful Codger 15 May 10 - 09:13 PM
GEST 16 May 10 - 04:37 PM
Monique 16 May 10 - 06:01 PM
GEST 16 May 10 - 06:55 PM
Artful Codger 16 May 10 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,GEST (without a cookie) 16 May 10 - 08:52 PM
Monique 16 May 10 - 09:06 PM
Monique 16 May 10 - 09:33 PM
bobad 16 May 10 - 10:47 PM
Artful Codger 17 May 10 - 12:29 AM
Monique 17 May 10 - 09:12 AM
Bob the Postman 17 May 10 - 10:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 May 10 - 02:01 PM
Monique 17 May 10 - 02:05 PM
GEST 17 May 10 - 05:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 May 10 - 06:40 PM
Bob the Postman 17 May 10 - 09:33 PM
Monique 18 May 10 - 03:53 AM
GEST 19 May 10 - 07:28 AM
GEST 19 May 10 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Joe 11 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM
Anne Neilson 11 Dec 12 - 04:10 PM
Anne Neilson 11 Dec 12 - 04:24 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose - Emile Benoit
From: GEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:27 PM

One of Newfoundland's favorite fiddle players was Emile Benoit who passed away in 1992, right after the release of his album, Viva La Rose. The title track to the album was one of the very few songs he ever recorded with lyrics. Benoit was half Acadian, so the song is in French, but it is a true original Newfoundland classic I would like to add to GEST Songs of Newfoundland and Labrador, if someone could please help locate the lyrics. :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose - Emile Benoit
From: GEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

Un de joueurs préférés du violon de Terre-Neuve était Emile Benoit qui a passé loin en 1992, droit après le dégagement de son album, Viva La Rose. La voie de titre à l'album était l'une très des peu de chansons qu'il a jamais enregistrées avec le lyrique. Benoit était à moitié acadien, ainsi la chanson est en français, mais c'est un véritable classique original de Terre-Neuve que je voudrais s'ajouter aux GEST Chansons de Terre-Neuve et Labrador, si quelqu'un pourrait satisfaire l'aide localisent le lyrique. :-)


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Subject: Lyr Req: Vive la rose et le lilas
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:41 AM

See this thread on the 17th c. French song "Vive la rose et le lilas".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:30 AM

Thanks, Artful Codger. I'm working on it now. :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:52 PM

Sorry. Not even close to Emile Benoit's French Newfoundland variant.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:54 PM

Here's an audio file of Emile Benoit singing Vive la Rose. Magic!

And here's a photograph of him to look at while listening.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 15 May 10 - 01:44 AM

Artful asked me to transcribe the lyrics from McGrath link, here is what I could come to.


Mon rêve (?) all' me délaisse
On dit oh vive la rose
Mon rêve all' me délaisse
On dit oh vive la rose
J'irai p't-être pas ce soir
Vive la rose et le lilas
J'irai p't-être pas ce soir
Vive la rose et le lilas


All' va-t-en voir un autre,
Oh dit oh vive la rose !
All' va-t-en voir un autre,
Oh dit oh vive la rose !
Je sais qu'all' reviendra
Vive la rose et le lilas!
Je sais qu'alle reviendra
Vive la rose et le lilas

On dit qu'alle est très belle…
Million (?) plus belle que moi…

On dit qu'alle est malade…
Peut-être elle en mourra…

Oh si all' meurt dimanche…
Lundi on l'enterr'ra…

Mardi je viendrons voir…
Mais moi je n'en voudrai pas…

I transcribed "elle" (she) as "alle/all' as pronounced. "Mon rêve" (my dream) is what I could figure out was said at the beginning. I'm not sure of "million" either but I can't think of any other word except for "meilleur" but it's grammatically incorrect, "mieux" doesn't make sense. "Mais - ?" but I can't figure out what "?" could be. Any assistance from Canadian French-tuned ears welcome!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 May 10 - 02:33 AM

Could the repeating line in the second part of each verse be "Vive la rose de les villages"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 15 May 10 - 09:07 AM

I had my Francophone partner (from St. Boniface) working on this yesterday but the accent was too strange for her. I too hear the last line as "Vive la rose de les villages".
I'm trying to hear the "pas plus belle" line as "Mais pas plus belle que moi" but I can't quite manage it.
This is a job for Beer (or possibly beer). I have PMed him.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Beer
Date: 15 May 10 - 09:34 AM

I also heard "Vive la rose de les villages".   I really cannot help to much as I have been away to long and have lost a lot of the Acadian words. However, if the answer is not forth coming I will contact my sister who is very good with this. Unfortunately she is on the road(Left our place yesterday a.m.)to Ontario so it maybe a week before she can reply. I will keep watch on this thread and see what develops.
Thanks Bob for the p.m.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 May 10 - 11:12 AM

McGrath, thanks for the link, that is a beautiful, beautiful melody.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: bobad
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:29 PM

There is a Wikipedia entry here which states that "Vive la rose is an 18th century French folk song about unrequited love. "Mon ami me d'laisse" is roughly translated as "My boyfriend dumped me". The song goes on to explain that he has found a new girlfriend. Another verse says that rumor has it that she is sick. The narrator says that if she dies, he will probably want to come back to her, but she will not have him. The chorus "Vive la rose et le lilas" means "Long live the rose and the lily."

On the other hand there is an article here on an NFB film interpretation of the song by Bruce Alcock which states " It's a very sad tale of unrequited love and the death of the woman the singer loves, who he calls "a Rose de les villages," or the Rose of the villages.

It sounds to me like he is singing "Rose de les Villages".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:39 PM

It does sound like "Vive la rose de les villages" instead of "Vive la rose et le lilas", which is the original line. But in France that would have to be ""Vive la rose des villages" - is that one of the differences in Canadian French? Or is it a mondegreen?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 15 May 10 - 01:35 PM

"De les" for "des" is certainly a possibilty. There's (at least) two flavours of French in Canada. The first settlers came from Poitou (mostly) to Atlantic coastal regions called Acadia. A century or so later the banks of the St. Lawrence River were settled by people from Normandy (mostly) who came to be known as Canadians. Their dialects differ to this day, and preserve archaisms characteristic of the original times and places. That's why we need Beer's fluently Acadian sister to vet the transcription.

My Quebecois-speaking partner was also under the impression that the song as sung by Benoit is a man's song of unrequited love, although the original lyric is clearly about a slighted damsel who will have her revenge when the rival dies and she tells her faithless lover to go jump in the lake.

Can someone who reads music look at the link posted by the Artful Codger in the other thread and tell us if it's the same tune as that which Benoit sings? See AC's postings of May 13 in each thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: meself
Date: 15 May 10 - 02:15 PM

I just started a thread on Emile Benoit to catch those who might be interested but might not have realized his connection with this thread. I found a great clip of him fiddling: says it all.

He was better known as a fiddler than as a singer.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: gnu
Date: 15 May 10 - 03:04 PM

Just posted on the other thread... "Jacquesatar (spg?)"

Round the west coast, many French descendants came from The Basques region. Locally, they are not called Acadians, but called, en Anglaise phonetics, "Jackatars". Could this be "Jacques the Sailor"?

Anyone have any info on this?

PS... Stephenville... ever driven either road from there to the T-Can in winter? Scare the crap outta ya! And I did it many, many times.

But, it was worth flying in and out. Never seen so many gorgeous blonde, redheaded women in my life. And when The Big Lad was running the kitchen at the airport... well, I became a big lad. Blondes, redheads, fries and gravy... memories.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Beer
Date: 15 May 10 - 03:31 PM

Isn't that the area between Corner Brook and Stephenville that they have to stop all transport service including train due to extreme high winds?
ad.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: gnu
Date: 15 May 10 - 03:37 PM

No... that's Wreckhouse, further south.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 May 10 - 09:13 PM

It is unquestionably the same tune. Benoit uses a free timing, but otherwise... Compare to clips of "Vive la rose" by Nana Mouskouri and others on YouTube.

If you follow the link I gave to the thread on the original song, you'll see that it was collected in Poitou at least as early as 1863, so the migration of this song to Acadia would have been natural. Benoit (or someone earlier) seems to have written new lyrics to form a different song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 16 May 10 - 04:37 PM

Please note that Newfoundland French is indeed considered a dialect in its own right, and is not the same as Acadian, Quebec or Canadian French.

•Acadian French
•African French
•Aostan French
•Belgian French
•Cajun French
•Canadian French
•Cambodian French
•Metropolitan French
•Français-Germanique
•Indian French
•Jersey Legal French
•Lao French
•Levantine French
•Maghreb French
•Meridional French
•New Caledonian French
•Newfoundland French
•North American French
•Oceanic French
•Quebec French
•South East Asian French
•Swiss French
•Vietnamese French
•West Indian French


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 16 May 10 - 06:01 PM

According to "Florilège de la chanson française" by Jean-Claude Klein, Bordas, 1989, page 37 the song has been collected in different parts of France. They say that the refrain comes from a 16th C. pastourelle that can be tracked from 1598 to the end of the 19th c. "La fille aux oranges"

"Au jardin de mon père
vive la rose,
vive ci, vive là,
un orangier il y a
vive la rose et le lilas."

They also say that the first versions didn't mention lilac because this flower was introduced in Europe at the end of the 16th c. but "damas" (that according to Doncieux was the name given to different plants, mainly a fragrant wallflower).
Bouchor's version that Jim Dixon posted on the other thread was written for educational purposes.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 16 May 10 - 06:55 PM

Artful Codger ~ You are correct. New lyrics formed a different song. Unless someone can transcribe from the song itself, I know of no other source.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 May 10 - 07:48 PM

Judging from Monique's transcription, the Benoit version is not so very different from the original.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GUEST,GEST (without a cookie)
Date: 16 May 10 - 08:52 PM

Here are the first half of the first and first half of the second verses as I transcribed them.

Mon vint me amant délaisse
On dit on vive la rose
Mon vint me amant délaisse
On dit on vive la rose

Elle t'en voir une autre,
On dit on vive la rose
Elle t'en voir une autre,
On dit on vive la rose


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 16 May 10 - 09:06 PM

After reading the posts following my first one, I listened to Emile Benoît's rendition again and did hear "la rose de les villages" that sounds really weird to my French ears but I have no idea where and when it could be said this way. Btw, there's a typo in the 2nd and 4th line of the 2nd verse I transcribed, it's "On dit..." not "oh dit..."
There's a mistake in Wiki article, "lilas" is not lily, it's lilac, lily is "lys" and lily of the valley "muguet".

On the other thread, there's a question about "ô gué": it's a spelling variant of "ô gai" -also spelled "ô gay" in previous texts- an expression meaning cheerfulness. As for "enterra" (Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:57 PM ) it's "enterr'ra" pronounced with an open "è" and double "r" vs a closed "é" and a single "r"; even if some tenses can replace others in songs -and in actual life- a passé simple/preterit can't replace the future tense required here.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 16 May 10 - 09:33 PM

Gest, then it'd be "Mon vain amant m' délaisse" -my vain lover neglects me.
I hear "al va-t-en voir une autre". Does anyone know if in Canadian French you can get such an open form of "il" that it becomes "al" as if it was first pronounced with a retroflex "l" that would make it sound like "ill" in English then it glided to a more open form that could be heard as if written with an "a"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: bobad
Date: 16 May 10 - 10:47 PM

In Quebec French joual "al" is often used for "elle".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 17 May 10 - 12:29 AM

Stray thought: is it possible that "les village" is actually some Newfy place name like Ley/Lais village? It would make a bit more sense to me for her to be the great beauty of a specific place, like the Rose of Allandale.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:12 AM

Bobad, this is why it puzzles me. The narrator is supposed to be a girl complaining that his fiancé/lover/beloved neglects her, that he sees someone else who is said to be ill and who will probably die, then her lover will come back to her but she will not take him back again.
If the narrator is a girl since the line says "al va-t-en voir une autre" (she goes to see another one -girl) this would mean that the 3 of them are somewhat gay; if the narrator is supposed to be a boy, only the lover and "the other one" are but I don't think that in either cases they're supposed to be. This is why I asked if "al" could be a variant of "il". I first tried to make sure that it wasn't "un" autre but I clearly hear "u-nautre" not "un-nautre" ([œ̃] nor [ɛ̃]).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 17 May 10 - 10:27 AM

Two edited snippets from Wikipedia's entry on Newfoundland French

"Newfoundland French refers to the French spoken on the Port au Port Peninsula of Newfoundland by people tracing their origins to Continental French fisherman who settled in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and not to the Québécois, or Acadians of The Maritimes. For this reason, Newfoundland French is most closely related to the Norman and Breton French of nearby St.-Pierre et Miquelon."

"In addition to French immigration from Europe, Acadian immigrants arrived from Cape Breton Island and the Magdalen Islands begining in the 19th century. Until the middle of the 20th century, fishermen from Brittany who spoke Breton as their mother tongue, but were educated in French, came to establish themselves on the Port-au-Port peninsula; this is arguably the primary cause for the differences between Newfoundland and Acadian French."

Emile Benoit's home was l'Anse-a-Canards on the Port-au-Port Peninsula.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 10 - 02:01 PM

Is there a specific variety of French for St Pierre et Miquelon, off the south of Newfoundland?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 17 May 10 - 02:05 PM

Oops! the girl's fiancé/lover... is supposed to be "her" fiancé... not "his"


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Subject: Lyr Add: VIVE LA ROSE (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 17 May 10 - 05:40 PM

Here is what I have developed from contributors to this thread and from listening to Emile Benoit sing his variant hundreds of times today. Please feel free to comment, correct, gripe or just plain enjoy. Thanks to everyone who contributed. Before I publish, I hope to get a YouTube video to put on the finished page at: GEST Songs of Newfoundland and Labrador. :-)

First of all, while you read about the Newfoundland French dialect below, right click on this mp3 file and let it load into a new tab or window. It takes about a minute or so to get into your browser:
Vive La Rose (Emile Benoit)

Secondly, something about the dialect:

From Wikitravel: Port au Port Peninsula — unlike Newfoundland English, Newfoundland French is nearly extinct. Newfoundland French is distinct from other Canadian French dialects including Quebec French and Acadian French, and is generally found in the Port au Port Peninsula. The language was deliberately discouraged by the government in the 20th century, so visitors can expect most people they encounter to speak English. However, for those who speak French, this peninsula is an oppoertunity to engage with a fascinating dialect.

And now, my transcription:

Mon vain me amant délaisse,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Mon vain me amant délaisse,
On dit oh vive la rose!
J'ai resté pas ce soir,
Vive la rose de les villages!
J'ai resté pas ce soir,
Vive la rose de les villages!

Elle va-t'en voir une autre,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Elle va-t'en voir une autre,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Je sais qu'elle reviendra,
Vive la rose de les villages!
Je sais qu'elle reviendra,
Vive la rose de les villages!

On dit qu'elle est très belle,
On dit oh vive la rose!
On dit qu'elle est très belle,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Millions fois belle que moi,
Vive la rose de les villages!
Millions fois belle que moi,
Vive la rose de les villages!

On dit qu'elle est malade,
On dit oh vive la rose!
On dit qu'elle est malade,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Peut-être elle non mourra,
Vive la rose de les villages!
Peut-être elle non mourra,
Vive la rose de les villages!

Oh si elle meurt dimanche,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Oh si elle meurt dimanche,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Lundi on l'enterrera,
Vive la rose de les villages!
Lundi on l'enterrera,
Vive la rose de les villages!

Mardi je viendrons voir,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Mardi je viendrons voir,
On dit oh vive la rose!
Mais moi je n'en voudrai pas,
Vive la rose de les villages!
Mais moi je n'en voudrai pas,
Vive la rose de les villages!

####.... Variant of an 18th century French folk song ....####

This variant arranged and recorded by Emile Benoit (Vive La Rose, trk#8, 1992, Amber Music, Topsail, NL, distributed by Denon, Markham, Ontario, produced by Noel Dinn, Gary Furniss and Pamela Morgan, and recorded at CBC Studio F in St. John's and at Hypnotic Studios, Toronto. The last major work of this master fiddler and storyteller from L'Anse-a-Canards on the Port-au-Port Peninsula, NL).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 10 - 06:40 PM

is it possible that "les village" is actually some Newfy place name like Ley/Lais village?

That sounds plausible enough - analogously, if you were referring to the Parisian district Les Halles w0ouldn't the construction "de Les Halles" be correct, rather than "des Halles".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:33 PM

Pauline suggests --

"Mais y'a plus belle que moi" for "Millions fois belle que moi"

"Peut-être elle n'en mourra" for "Peut-être elle non mourra"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Monique
Date: 18 May 10 - 03:53 AM

Pauline's suggestions are quite good.

It can't be "Mon vain me amant délaisse":
Mon----------vain       me      amant    délaisse
|----------------|------------------|               
                                     |--------------------|
poss.adj.-- att.adj.---            --- noun
                              dir.obj.---            ---verb

1 you can't separate a noun and its attributive adjective by a personal pronoun, only by an adverb
2 you can't separate the verb and its direct/indirect object when it's a clitic pronoun.
You can only have "Mon vain amant me délaisse" pronounced "Mon vain amant m' délai(-)"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 19 May 10 - 07:28 AM

All suggested changes to this point have been made to the song page at GEST Songs of Newfoundland and Labrador ... Thanks to everyone who replied to my plea for help. I am now working on getting a YouTube video to place on the page as well. :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva La Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GEST
Date: 19 May 10 - 07:30 AM

Ruh-Roh. This appears to be a duplicated post and thread and I sure don't know why. Moderator help needed here.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Vive la Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 01:54 PM

I'm a little late on this, but 'la rose de les villages" may have the same significance as 'the star of the county down", simply a term applied to somebody of striking beauty. Also, the version of French spoken in Newfoundland may have a continuing use of old terms and forms in a similar manner to Acadian French spoken in parts of northern New Brunswick. Certainly the conjugation looks a lot like one of the forms I was taught in grade school way back when, and it's fallen out of usage.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Vive la Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:10 PM

Realise at this time lapse that it will probably not be helpful to add the info. that I first heard this song (in the 'Vive la rose et les lilas' version) in the 1970s, on a French recording of a French singer (not traditional) -- whose name I have forgotten. But the tune was definitely the same!

Will try to backtrack with the friend who owned the LP.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Vive la Rose (Emile Benoit)
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 11 Dec 12 - 04:24 PM

Found the song on YouTube -- try Guy Beart, and look for 'Vive la rose' (the version seems a bit more "produced" than my memory, so possibly a later performance).


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