Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy (Cornish)

stormalong 20 Sep 05 - 10:23 AM
sian, west wales 21 Sep 05 - 08:44 AM
stormalong 04 Oct 05 - 07:51 AM
Hawker 04 Oct 05 - 10:55 AM
sian, west wales 04 Oct 05 - 12:25 PM
stormalong 05 Oct 05 - 02:15 AM
Hawker 05 Oct 05 - 06:36 PM
stormalong 02 Dec 05 - 10:18 AM
Jack Campin 16 Aug 10 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Lea 28 Oct 16 - 06:06 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:





Subject: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: stormalong
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 10:23 AM

The original 'Late' Cornish version of 'Delyow Syvy' can be found in both Inglis Gundry's 'Canow Kernow' and also in Peter Kennedy's 'Folksongs of Britain and Ireland'.

The version in Merv Davey's 'Hengan' (posted to Mudcat at one time) is an adaptation into Unified Cornish. Does anyone know if Merv's version is the same as the adaptation into Unified Cornish first made by R Morton Nance in 'Old Cornwall', Summer 1947?

The 'Hengan' version strays a long way from the original, and I suspect that this has more to do with bowdlerisation than linguistic adaptation as the original meaning was judged by Baring Gould to be "gross".

And does anyone have a version in Unified (or Common) Cornish which is closer to the original?

Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:44 AM

I'm sorry to see this slip off the edge as I was curious to learn more. Could I venture to ask: isn't Delyow Syvy more the tune than the song?   Or is it a case of so many changes over time that the actual references to Delyow Syvy have dropped away?

I know I had problems 'engaging' with the question because there was no such song listed in FBI (Kennedy) but, fiddling around a bit in the Mudcat archives, I'm assuming we're talking about "Pelea Era Why Moaz", yes?

I only know the Welsh "where are you going" ones, of course, and the tunes are completely different. Can't think of any Strawberry referenes either.

I'd love to know more and Kennedy (about my least favourite source) doesn't help much.

siân


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: stormalong
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:51 AM

Yes, 'Pelea Era Why Moaz' (= Where are you going) is the same song. The Cornish version is usually known as 'Strawberry Leaves' after the chorus line: "Rag delkiow sevi gwra muzi teag" (= For strawberry leaves make maidens fair).

I know the song has lots of relatives, but the Cornish version is particularly interesting as it is the ONLY folk song actually recorded in Cornish historically (1698?) rather than translated into Cornish by modern revivalists. (It is, however, possible that even this was only a translation).

Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: Hawker
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 10:55 AM

In Mike O'Connors book St Petroc's Land, it states: English words and tune collected by Baring Gould and Fleetwood Sheppard from James Olver of Launceston (SBG MSS vol 2 162) Cornish words noted by Edward Chirgwin in the Gwavas Mss of 1698.
The notes on the song at the bottom of the page add..... Some think that the tune, unique to Cornwall, comes from the time when Cornish was spoken. The Cornish words were written out by Edward Chirgwin so that the song's rhythm was clear, As the verses are close in meaning to Olver's, it is reasonable to connect his tune with those lyrics. This is one of the few songs with original Cornish lyrics. Late Cornish spelling is also retained.

The words given in late Cornish are:

Pelea era why moaz, moes fettow teag,
Gen ackas pedden dew
ha ackas blew mellen
Moas than ventan, sarra weage,
Rag delkiow seue gwra moesse teag

Ra ve moas genba why, moes fefettow teag
Gen ackas pedden dew
ha ackas blew mellen
Grew mena why, sara weag
Rag delkiow seue gwra moesse teag

Fatla gwra ve ackas gorra why en doar
Gen ackas pedden dew
ha ackas blew mellen
Me veddn sefuall arta, sara weage
Rag delkiow seue gwra moesse teag

Fatla gwera v ackas dry why gen flo?
Gen ackas pedden dew
ha ackas blew mellen
Me veden e thone sarra wheage
Rag delkiow seue gwra moesse teag

Pew veda why gowas rag seera rag as flo?
Gen ackas pedden dew
ha ackas blew mellen
Why ra bose ye seera, sarra weage.
Rag delkiow seue gwra moesse teag

Pendre vedda why geal rag lednow rag as flo?
Gen ackas pedden dew
ha ackas blew mellen
E serra veath trehar, sarra weage.
Rag delkiow seue gwra moesse teag

Don't know if this helps or what you have already, but there you go!"
Cheers, Lucy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:25 PM

Olver, eh? Hmmm. Me mam's people were Olvers from the Penzance area. Or possibly St Austell.

Thanks for the further details.

siân


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: stormalong
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 02:15 AM

Thanks, Lucy, but this is the same text given by Gundry. Although I probably have more books on the Cornish language and its literature than most people, the references to this song are a little obscure so it is hard to evaluate its origins. The language was in decline at this period with fragments being collected (and generated) by gentlemen antequarians rather than traditional speakers.

I've come round to the idea of learning this song in Late Cornish because that is more authentic. I know that a few Cornish artists have recorded this song, but before attempting to follow them I'd like to get a better understanding of the orthography and sound system not only of Late Cornish in general but of this particular text. I say this as a Cornish speaker, although the version of revived Cornish I learnt was based on an earlier period of the language.

Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: Hawker
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:36 PM

Sorry couldnt be of more help stormalong, I don't know if you know Mike O'Connor, he is a bard of the Cornish Gorsedd, He has done a huge amount of research into early Cornish Music and Musicians, he may be able to help you more, or know someone who can - if you'd like his e-mail address I could pm it to you, with his permission. Let me know.
Regards, Lucy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: stormalong
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 10:18 AM

Having now obtained a photocopy of Robert Morton Nance's article from 'Old Cornwall', I'm a little clearer about the origins of the Cornish language version of 'Dabbling in the dew' and its variants. There is more than one historical source, but the original in the handwriting of the singer, Edward Chirgwin, is in the Gwavas MSS in the British Museum and dates to 1698.

Chirgwin's phonetic, 'Late' Cornish spelling was as given by Lucy above, and an English translation was posted in this earlier Mudcat thread: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4419#24012
('Whittle' is an English dialect word for shawl.)

The meaning is mostly clear enough, but 'fettow' (line 1) is problematic. Nance suggests (in his Unified Cornish) 'hy fythow'. It's an explanation but I don't find it entirely convincing or elegant. The combination of 'pedden dew' (dark/black head) and 'blew mellen' (yellow hair) seems a little odd, and 'pedden dew' has been altered in the MS (in another hand) to 'bedgeth gwin' (fair/white face) which most singers have preferred to follow. The version sung by Brenda Wooten and Robert Bartlett on the 'Starry Gazey Pie' LP obviously follows Nance but has been improved here and there. Nance's 'hy fythow tek' has been replaced by 'bluth ha tek'.

Below is my attempt to render the song as sung on 'Starry Gazey Pie' in Kernewek Kemmyn (which is the orthographic form of Cornish I'm most familiar with). I was hoping to get a version in Revived Late Cornish but this has not (yet) been forthcoming.

The spelling inconsistencies in this post are not mistakes but reflect varying spelling standardisations and solutions which bedevil the Cornish language revival.

Richard
=====

DELYOW SEVI

Ple'th esowgh-hwi ow-mos, mowes vludh ha teg,
Gans agas bejeth gwynn, ha'gas blew melyn?
My a vynn mos dhe'n venten, syrra hweg,
Rag delyow sevi a wra mowesi teg.

A allav-vy mos genowgh hwi, mowes, vludh ha teg,
Gans...
Gwrewgh mar mynnowgh-hwi, syrra hweg,
Rag...

Fatel vydh mar kwrav-vy agas gorra-hwi y'n dor,
Gans...
My a vynn sevel arta, syrra hweg,
Rag...

Fatel vydh mar kwrav-vy agas dri-hwi gans flogh,
Gans...
My a vynn y dhoen, syrra hweg,
Rag...

Piw a vynnowgh-hwi kavoes rag syrra rag'as flogh,
Gans...
Hwi a vydh y syrra, syrra hweg,
Rag...

Pandr'a vynnowgh-hwi kavoes rag lennow rag'as flogh,
Gans...
Y das a vydh tregher, syrra hweg,
Rag...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:02 PM

Tune for this:

http://www.an-daras.com/music/m_tuneindex_p_delyowsyvy.htm


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Delyow Syvy (Cornish)
From: GUEST,Lea
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 06:06 AM

As already Robert Morton Nance suggested, the Late Cornish version is clearly a translation of an English source, since there are English sources referring to "Strawberry Leaves" are going back to around 1630.

Sources:
1) Hamdultun, Valentine. (1630). Magdalene College – Pepys Collection. Printed at London for H. Gosson, 1258, 1259

2) MS 17786-17791. Vocal and instrumental pieces by English composers, arranged for five, six and seven parts. (British Library)

3) 1688 or 1689 (so around the same time:) http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/search/tunes/Adam's%20fall,%20or%20Jocky%20and%20Jenny,%20or%20where%20art%20thou%20going%20my%20pritty%20maid


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 26 May 2:02 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.