BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 01:27 PM

This documentary on Bob Dylan is now being credited
with a renewal of interest in
traditional music recordings by
John Jacob Niles,
who is name-checked and briefly filmed in the documentary.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home - blues
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:19 PM

Because Izzy Young is the one who says Dylan's homage to bluesmen Mance Kipscomb and Blind Arvella Gray may be fabricated and not Dylan himself, I do not necessarily take it as gospel. I believe Dylan heard these guys and may well have extrapolated elements of their influence.

I notice that a reissue of Blind Arvella Gray's music came out just this summer and I've been meaning to buy it at Amazon.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM

It was interesting that the 'serious' journalists at that time seem puzzled that young people would wish to listen to an entire evening of words and poetry. Or that these 'teenagers' were capable of doing so.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:21 PM

Peter T: I just listened to the first Dylan Lp for interest. You will here a much greater range of guitar licks and stuff there, he is fooling around with fingerpicking, blues, slide etc. But as you say, he settled on solid flat picking as what he wanted under his "big songs" of the second two records, generally speaking. He learnt like a sponge, mastered everything, and then generally moved on if it didnt suit him. The first LP shows him outplaying and out singing his contemporaries in about as many styles as there are songs on the record. Nauseating little shit, wasn't he??
   I dont mean outplaying everyone in terms of technique: he would just learn enough Travis picking, or whatever, to use effectively. He was never a guitar nerd. But he played evrything he did with great power and commitment in the 61-66 period, and it shows.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:14 PM

Sometimes I am glad I dont have a television !!

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:48 PM

Thanks, greg, great comment.   I hadn't thought about it, or connected it to that remark about power, but I guess you could have predicted the waywardness of Dylan from the flatpick use so early. It is also interesting that, in the early parts of the film, he always plays absolutely rock solid, no frills, nothing. One wonders if someone told him that was what to do -- the natural tendency early on is to try and do flashy things. That is one of the most impressive things to me about Dylan from the film: he never plays flashy, it gives him that rock solid quality, as if he were much more mature than he was.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:21 AM

Dylan's pretty exclusive use of the flatpick in his early acoustic phase is surely connected with his justification of wanting a band to sing with, as interviewed in the Scorses film. I cant remember the exact words he used, but it was something along the lines of "wanting more power under the song". This is what he would have got from the flatpick, in his solo performer pre 65 phase. He was prepared to play with his fingers if he wanted to be gentle(eg Corinna Corinna on Freewheeling), but broadly speaking he was a savage flatpicker, which is what you need to be if you are going to do songs like Hard Rain. You only have to look at the way he held his body, and face, while singing, to see that a flatpick was a necessity. (Perhaps "necessity" is a bit strong, Leadbelly did it with steel finger picks and a 12-string, but the flatpick is the easier option).
   The integration of the physicality of the performance with his mind was astonishingly dealt with by the Alan Ginsberg description of the column of his breath, a very interesting attempt to put something very inexplicable into words.
    AS a relevant point, contrast Dylan's wearing of boots with Baez's occasional barefeet. You need some weight on your feet to develop a style like Dylan's. I ahve always found it difficult to play good backing guitar when wearing shoes, I nearly always wear boots for flatpicking, though I can fingerpick in carpet slippers at home.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 10:02 AM

Peter, that show on Dylan was one of the best Acoustic Workshops ever.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:18 AM

thanks, kat for reposting those remarks of Rick's, I had never seen them before.   I think Rick changed his mind a bit about some of the later stuff -- I remember when we first heard Blind Willie McTell together -- I had bought the official bootleg with it on, and brought it to a lesson -- and Rick was blown away by it, and started doing it himself in concerts. What I think really got to him was how Dylan had once again taken yer basic chords (St. James Infirmary) and built a whole new house on it.

Whatever you think of Rick's postings, he was -- so far as I know and have read -- the only person who ever talked about Dylan's guitar playing or style, ever!!!   After knowing Rick for awhile, I became struck by this everywhere -- almost no one ever talks about the technical aspects of people's playing. No one ever talks about where the sound comes from -- which you would think would be important.

In Dylan's case, Rick and I used to talk about other elements of his playing.   One of the most interesting was the way in which he used to milk a few things for all they were worth. I remember we spent one evening working through "I Was Young When I Left Home" (the early song that was bundled into one of the recent albums).   A good example Rick and I often talked about was Blood on the Tracks, where Dylan used open D down into the ground!!! (and retransposed the songs into standard tuning). He was also impressed that at least later in his career Dylan seemed to be capable of doing difficult transposing on the fly.

We had one conversation about bass runs. Rick had read somewhere that Dylan had learned from Lonnie Johnson (a hero of Rick's), and he thought that maybe it was from Johnson that Dylan learned the descending runs that pervade and structure songs like Sad Eyed Lady and lots of the harmonica breaks.

It was interesting to watch Dylan playing on the film, in the early songs he does nothing with his right hand except the most rudimentary flatpick strums. His left hand is doing all the work.

We did a whole radio show on Dylan (which I think is on tape somewhere) where some of this came up. What I was struck by when we listened to some of the Cynthia Gooding show and songs like Pawn in their Game was how incredibly powerful Dylan was as a protest singer. He can deny it, but it is so obvious why people like Baez and Seeger and the folkies were so disappointed when he turned his back on political songs (and they were political, why Dylan keeps denying it is just one of those mysteries). He wrote them like an avenging fury: you can see why they all said, more, more, more!!!


Just some random thoughts/memories.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:41 AM

Is anyone in the U.S.A. actively fighting this censorship?

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:40 AM

Joan Baez - uncensored Dylan movie

The rude words that Joan was allowed to inflict upon the BBC viewers - were considered too shocking for some PBS broadcasts.

You may well now feel that you are not entitled to know the reasons for such actions - I hope you may agree that you are still entitled to carry-on asking for them?

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:46 PM

I grew up in Minnesota, and grew up in a home with older siblings who are the same age as Dylan.

Dylan himself mentioned listening to the radio late at night. Those weren't local stations he was referring to--in northern Minnesota, that meant listening to one of the 50-100,000 watt stations from far beyond Minnesota's borders--KC, Memphis or Little Rock stations. They weren't playing all that white bread suburban crap. Dylan said he was listening to it--I listened to it. So why it wasn't on Ron's and catspaw's radar, I don't know.

As I also mentioned, we listened to music that wasn't played on conservative mainstream radio (those Pat Boone and Connie Francis stations) in record shops.

I don't know that Dylan is or was "a genius" or even a great songwriter, to be honest. And I don't think anyone else can really say. Time and history will answer those sorts of questions. The reality is, Dylan's music appealed to a very small segment of the American music market: the children of the liberal and intellectual elites, who had formed a NY music scene in the Village in the 50s and 60s. The whole Dylan phenomenon was very much centered in a time and place. His appeal seems to have been pretty much only to his own generation, as the current generation has proven by it's inattention to Dylan's work. Not too many covers of Dylan songs are showing up on the current generation's albums or their radar. I just don't know how relevant his music will be in a historic sense. Right now, I'd have to say "not very, apparently". Which shouldn't surprise anyone really, as Dylan's music isn't danceable in the least. And much of it isn't really all that singable either.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:50 PM

Aaaargh...... We should have known Shambles would wrench the thread in that particular direction:

Oh Lord, if dreams were only real
I'd have my hands on that wooden wheel
And with all my heart I would turn her 'round...

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM

But the oddest thing was that there was no attempt at all to give any information about how it was that the decision was made to destroy the tapes six years later, at a time when Dylan was at the height of his fame. Who dunnit? Why did they do it? What was the actual story?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.

You have been provided with all the information that they are at liberty to tell you - you have no right to this information or to even ask for it. For to provide you with this information surely risk will bringing the whole edifice crashing down.


And Einstien was crap wind-surfer and couldn't play the harmonica to save his life - so my maths teacher told me - and he should know. All this can all be found in a old forum thread - so there is no point trying to have any fresh discussions in new threads........

However, the old threads will probably have been subject to imposed closure and you will not be able to contribute to these - unless you ask some of your fellow posters nicely in a PM - to re-open them for you - but such is life.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:40 PM

Guest, you conveniently left out other names who appeared on the pop charts that year with big hits - names like Fabian, Anita Bryant, Paul Anka, Connie Francis, the Chipmunks, the Morman Tabernacle Choir, Pat Boone, Teresa Brewer, Andy Williams, Perry Como and The Exotic Sounds Of Martin Denny And His Orchestra. I guess we should add Frank Sinatra to the list since he had a big hit with "High Hopes" that year.   1959 saw Elvis in the army, Jerry Lee Lewis all but banned from radio, Chuck Berry ended up getting arrested, Little Richard found religion, and the music industry was pushing teen idols.

You are right though, in all honesty I should not have said that it was an era "where the music had yet to break the "color" line." That was a stupid thing for me to say.   Of course there were black artists on the charts, but if you look at the numbers on the pop charts (the big commercial hits) - the balance was not yet there. You mentioned 10 - out of the top 100. To be fair, the numbers were actually higher than that, but again the balance was not there. Commercial radio felt "safer" pushing the other artists.   You are correct, it was the kids who EVENTUALLY desegregated the music charts.

Bob Dylan would be another important link in changing the music - and that was the point of the discussion and how he helped us grow away from some of the sounds of the 50's. He was a link on the chain, as important as artists like Chuck Berry or the great Motown artists who were starting to appear and the dozens of others who were part of changing the music scene.

You mention some great names, but I NEVER said the MUSIC in the 1950's was a "musical wasteland". I did say that the pop charts had more than their share of syrupy sweet songs at the time and I stand by that.

Guest, I'm not sure why you had to turn this personal. You made very good points but you did not have to sour them with cheap shots. If you are going to insult people, at least have the guts to do it with a name instead of being another anonymous guest. I have no problem with people posting anonymously, but it is cowardice to use that shield when you insult someone. I have no problem with being proven wrong or being told that I said something out of context. I do think you are better than taking a shot and then hiding behind your anonymity. You are more intelligent than that. I know you feel that you can't get hurt when you hide, but you were raised better than that.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:34 PM

Guest........The special suggested that was what Dylan and other white kids listened to in Hibbing, Minnesota........and that may well be the truth. Ever been to Hibbing? I have and it's much like the town I grew up in in Ohio and many of the artists you list were not heard much around those parts either! When we moved to Columbus, not exactly a cultural tour de force either, at least my exposure was greatly increased.

I thought they made the point well about what it was like for a kid like Bob to grow up in a place like that. Like they say about my hometown, it's a good place to be from. Funny thing though, as I get older I am drawn back there more and more.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST,Walczak
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:21 PM

Critics are nothing but frustrated musician/artist wannabes. This crazy thing we call the internet allows your distorted notions to look better in the printed form. You who've never done nothin, you who build the big wind tunnels....Be glad you live in a time when a great artist plied his trade. His songs are nothing more than musings yet you want them to be more. Give everyone a break.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

The Nashville Sound of Patsy Cline!

Pop folk hybrids like the Everlys,

And I forgot to mention Eddie Cochran with the instrumental rockers above.

The Bossa Nova and Cuban Bolero! And lots of other hot and cool Latin music that influenced all kinds of music of the era, from Patsy to the Drifters.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:27 PM

Duane Eddy. The Venturers.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:22 PM

And of course, the late 50s still were nursing along a brilliant rockabilly scene, the ascendancy of doo wop, girl groups, and kick ass jazz with the likes of Sonny Rollins and Max Roach.

Hardly a musical wasteland.

The crap music referred to on the Dylan show might have been a reflection of what Dylan was listening to, but he doesn't--can't, in fact--speak for what all the young people in the late 50s were listening to on commercial radio stations trying to kill off rock and roll and the obliteration of the color lines in US society.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:09 PM

Madhouse on Castle Street? A very peculiar programme - as if they were intentionally trying to ramble around the story without telling it, and without even playing the sound tapes they had managed to get hold of.

Maybe the idea was to echo the way Bob Dylan in the play wandered round in the background, singing songs more or less at random. At least that's how I remember the play.

And I suppose the showing of fairly arbitary newsreel clips from the time, mostly about the weather, may have been a way of commenting on the way that the BBC decided to hold on to these, while destroying the tape of the play.

But the oddest thing was that there was no attempt at all to give any information about how it was that the decision was made to destroy the tapes six years later, at a time when Dylan was at the height of his fame. Who dunnit? Why did they do it? What was the actual story? (It's part of a bigger story about all kinds of other remarkable TV material which was arbitrarily wiped around the same time.)

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:53 PM

Bullshit the color lines hadn't started to disintegrate. Sarah Vaughn, Sam Cooke, Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, the Drifters, the Coasters, Ray Charles--ALL were in the charts at the time.

Problem with you Ron, is you love to play the expert about things you don't know about, and state your opinion as fact. It was the kids themselves that desegregated pop music in the 50s. So I don't know what river in Egypt you are floating down with that "pop music was a wasteland in the 50s" crap.

Not all white kids were listening to Pat Boone and Connie Francis. And to suggest they were simply demonstrates your ignorance, particularly about race and music in the 50s and 60s.

Here are just a few songs from the 1959 Top 100:

Almost Grown - Chuck Berry (#32)

Along Came Jones - The Coasters (#9)

Back In The USA - Chuck Berry (#37)

I Loves You Porgy - Nina Simone (#18)

I Want To Walk You Home - Fats Domino (#8)

I'm Moving On - Ray Charles (#40)

Lonely Teardrops - Jackie Wilson (#7)

Only Sixteen - Sam Cooke (#28)

Say Man - Bo Diddley (#20)

There Goes My Baby - The Drifters (#2)

And that was just the black folks.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: smiling scribe
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:36 PM

I was young and free and complete with duffle coat and hippy longish hair as I floated off to see Bob Dylan at Sheffield City Hall.

I only knew I loved being there up in the gods watching this lonesome fluffy haired man and then what a breathe of great rock n roll rhythmn, when the Band came on.

I just love his words, his music and the fact he was there when electric music was becoming so popular and good. That is my feeling and just simple. I love the feeling of music and Bob Dylan filled up my feeling of the love of music.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:15 PM

Another thing to clear up as well........Dylan WAS regarded for his harp playing, again primarily because of the innovative style and drive. We have a long thread on that one somewhere as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:21 PM

Here I am, patiently reading through the thread, and I come upon an old Rick Fielding posting responding to one of my own ("Yeah, Whistle, etc..."). Just to correct any mistaken impressions, that was part of a thread where Rick had maintained that Dylan was originally a pretty good guitar player; I dissented, and Rick responded by basically saying that Dylan may not have been stellar by today's standards, but by the standards of many of the people who were part of his scene at the time, he wasn't bad.

Now that we've cleared that up... I bought the DVD last week, and watched the whole thing over the weekend. Loved it, but then I've been a huge admirer of Dylan for most of my life. What amazes me is that, after all this time, he still inspires more passion and controversy (witness the multiple threads growing to great length on this forum) than anyone else I can think of.

Have to agree with McGrath about the Baez/Dylan duets, though; they never did work for me. I kind of think people liked the idea of those two singing together more than the result.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:15 PM

Who gives a flying frel if Dylan ever asked about Rick.

Here, let me repeat something for you, since repetition is what you're all about, besides trolling:

Listen to it and you'll hear very solid fast flat-picked runs. Strong driving rhythm, workmanlike (but accurate) slide guitar. A great riff (possibly lifted from The Everlys "Wake Up Little Suzie"). A D9th used ONLY by Dave Van Ronk at the time (it WAS 1961!) and one of the most inventive Eb chords I could imagine. Certainly MUCH better than the other singer-songwriters.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

Guest, who said anything about 1963?    I guess I wasn't clear, or misunderstood your earlier comment.   The clips they showed in the Dylan movie from the late 1950's showed an era where the music had yet to break the "color" line.   The music was syrupy sweet. Do a Google search on "Pop charts 1959", or 1960 or even 1961. You will see the music SLOWLY start to change and you are right - by 1963 there was a lot of great music happening. But by 1963 the change was happening. In 1961 when Dylan hit New York City, the folk scene was beginning to blossom - and I feel it was largely due to a backlash against the inspid songs that were on the pop charts.

Don't get me wrong, there was some great music around at the time - but those weren't the songs you would hear all the time on AM radio. You had to do some searching to find the good music.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:15 AM

Ron, you are dead wrong about what was on the pop charts at the time Dylan was coming up. Google "pop charts 1963" and you will see there was plenty of great music being played on the radio at the time.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:55 AM

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:36 PM

It is hard to remenber just how seriously things were taken back then.

A good example was the rather intense young man who was asking Bob Dylan about the deep meaning of the cover photo for Highway 61 and thought the choice of clothing for it - was of great significance.

Even when he was told by the man who should know - he was not prepared to accept the answer.

******************************************************************

LMAO!!!! PUH-LEEZE!!!!

Simply unbelievable...............

The irony in that post is so overwhelming that words to express it escape me. I can hardly wait for the next chapter in "The Pot Calls the Kettle Black."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:18 AM

I have found myself wondering what Rick Fielding had to say about Dylan

Does anyone wonder what Bob Dylan had to say about Rick Fielding? Perhaps the fact that Rick presumably paid to go and see Bob Dylan in concert - is of most note?

Not really too surprising that Dylan's rather sloppy technical approach to guitar playing and casual regard for being exactly in tune would not appeal to a skilled guitar player like Rick Fielding. But there is no accounting for taste.

But Bob Dylan is not a name well-known all over the world because of his guitar playing or indeed his singing. And certainly not for his harmonica skills. But he must have had something though.......

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:38 AM

We taped it and went to bed, so haven't watched all of it, yet. I have found myself wondering what Rick Fielding had to say about Dylan, though, so did a little research. Here's one of his many comments:

Subject: RE: Dylan overrated?You've got to be kidding
From: Rick Fielding - PM
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 01:11 AM

AIEEEE CHEEWAWAAA! NO, NO, NO, and No again (just for emphasis!!)

I NEVER EVER referred to the songs mentioned as examples of Dylan's fine picking.

When I saw him live at Massey Hall here in Toronto he was doing his "It's all right Ma" etc. repertoire. By then he'd settled into a totally minimalist approach, doing virtually everything in Dropped D, with a very rudimentary chord strum.

The songs that impressed me (guitar wise) were on his FIRST ALBUM ONLY!

Listen to it and you'll hear very solid fast flat-picked runs. Strong driving rhythm, workmanlike (but accurate) slide guitar. A great riff (possibly lifted from The Everlys "Wake Up Little Suzie"). A D9th used ONLY by Dave Van Ronk at the time (it WAS 1961!) and one of the most inventive Eb chords I could imagine. Certainly MUCH better than the other singer-songwriters.

He never again came close to playing like that, but I gather that was by choice. Get the FIRST album. You'll see what I mean.

P.S. His tuning sucked though, and his strings must have been a hundred years old!

Cheers

From the same thread:

From: Rick Fielding - PM
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:36 AM

Yeah Whistle, I was about 14, and it simply blew me away. I WILL say however, that I never thought Dylan's playing was on the same planet as SOME of the trad artists I'd heard by then, merely that when I read the initial reviews of that album it appeared to me that NONE of the reviewers seemed even remotely aware of the techniques he was using.

For example, Bill Monroe's (not anybody else's) patented yodel on Roy Acuff's Freight train Blues.

The fast flatpicking (in two different styles) on the former song and on Joe Williams' Highway 51.

The full SIX STRING chords on House of the Rising Sun. Dave Van Ronk's arrangement no doubt, but Van Ronk simply didn't DRIVE it like that....maybe nobody has since.

One of the things that I remember from that time was the almost (almost hell!) religious fervour that overcame me when I heard people like Dylan, Dock Boggs, Estil C. Ball, Fred Gerlach, Leadbelly, Bukka White, etc.

It was quite different from what I felt upon hearing The Weavers, Pete S. Paxton, Ochs, etc. that was more cerebral.

A perfect example was an album by Paul Clayton. (Dylan's friend) Clayton sung and played the songs with some skill and certainly a reverence for tradition....Dylan just ripped them apart with a "fuck you" attitude....but he still had discipline and timing to go with all that drive.

Cheers

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:22 AM

One of the highlights of the current BBC drive to rehash all the (even tenuous) Dylan related clips - well those they have not intentionally set fire to - was the Sings Dylan one on BBC 4.

It was Lulu - with her boy and girl dancers - singing Tambourine Man. Complete with tamborines and a snazzy dance routine.

It was so awful - it was good.

Which was a bit like the singing together of Bob and Joan Baez. At one point in that song - they were so out of tune with each other - it sounded really good and probably would heve been impossible to create intentionally.

Any thoughts on the Madman On Castle Street programme?

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 01:13 PM

Sorry about that delayed douhle post - my broadband connection went down after I pushed the button the first time, and I thought it hadn't gone through.
......................

It occurred to me that there's something rather Doctor Whoish about the Dylan persona. You know, the way every now and again when you were used to one Doctor Who and enjoying what he was doing, he'd have a regeneration, and a new version would take over. (And in fact there was one point in the film where Dylan was actually talking in those kind of terms, about getting a new Dylan because the old one was wearing out.)

And, as with Doctor Who, some people would get angry and miss the one they'd lost, and resent the new one as not being a patch on the old ones. And others who joined the saga later would see the one they came in for as the real one, and the earlier ones as inferior.

I've got my favourite versions too. But pretty well all of the Dylans bring something I value, and we wouldn't have that without losing the earlier ones.

Bob Dylan the Time Lord... Actually he'd be a pretty good Doctor Who, if they ever decide it's time for an American one.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:49 PM

Bob Dylan and Joan Baez singing together really was pretty dire. Some voices just don't go together too well. I understood why he didn't invite her up to sing with him when he had the choice.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:36 PM

It is hard to remenber just how seriously things were taken back then.

A good example was the rather intense young man who was asking Bob Dylan about the deep meaning of the cover photo for Highway 61 and thought the choice of clothing for it - was of great significance.

Even when he was told by the man who should know - he was not prepared to accept the answer.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:05 PM

This documentary gives a look at the adversarial environment in which interviews were conducted and Dylan's public persona was formed. The patronizing tone of the interviewer in one case got him a smart-ass answer from Dylan that he deserved. Wanna bet that wasn't the only time such an exchange happened?

SRS

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 11:23 AM

Bob Dylan and Joan Baez singing together really was pretty dire. Some voices just don't gop together too well. I understood why he didn't invite her up to sing with him when he had the choice.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 11:24 AM

As someone who knows the early Dylan but not a lot else, (sorry, LH!) I found it interesting, nice to see Dave Van Ronk, Maria Muldaur, the Weavers and Sonny and Brownie.
RtS

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:31 AM

Guest, concerning the pop music that was happening when Dylan was getting on the charts - the names you mention are surely good, but they weren't on the "charts" during the period. Rock n Roll was going through a syrupy sweet phase - Beach Boys and "fun" songs. The R&B was not being heard as much as it would until a few years later.

I also did not get the impression that they were looking down at artists like Gene Vincent - quite the opposite.   I felt they were trying to show what the subtle influences may have been.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:24 AM

One more thing--I just plain disagree that pop music at the time Dylan was trying to get on the charts was awful. I was listening at the time to Sam Cooke, Roy Orbison, Ray Charles, Marvin Gaye, the Ronettes, The Shirelles, The Crystals, Tony Bennett (I still love him--just like my parents loved him at the time), The Drifters, and Little Stevie Wonder...

Sure, my tastes ran heavily towards R & B and soul, but I loved the music of the 60s everyone claims was so awful. Makes me think they only heard what was playing on the radio, or are mimicking what they have heard other people say about that era.

There was no musical wasteland at the time on the pop charts--the musical world had already begun the most major shift of the last half of the 20th century, and it had nothing to do with Dylan or the faux folkies like Baez, et al. It was the gradual easing of the color lines on radio.

And just for the record--I loved Gene Vincent, Joey Dee and the Starlighters, and by 1966 one of my favorite bands were the Young Rascals, and one of my favorite "singer-songwriters" was Johnny Rivers.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:01 AM

The way it was edited was a bit too precious, I thought. But I loved the part about the Village. The most interesting part of the entire program. Well worth it, just to see that clip of Maria Muldaur! It definitely took me back to my own youthful days of wandering round the Village. I was too young to get into the bars, but still! There it was--Cafe Wha in all it's glory!

It was also good to see the old clips of Dylan performing. I had forgotten how uncomfortable he seemed on a stage back then. Also, watching the program reminded me of how much I always disliked a lot of his early songs (I'm a bigger fan of his rock phase than his so-called 'folk' phase). I had a friend who was a huge Dylan freak, and she was always wanting me to sing 'Blowin in the Wind' and 'Don't Think Twice...' when we'd jam--both songs I HATED.

In fact, there wasn't really anything I liked much at the time off his first album, and I certainly didn't see what all the fuss was about. But then, I was never musically enamored with the whole faux folk revival scene in the Village anyway. It wasn't until I heard 'A Hard Rain...' I thought the man had any chops whatsoever. His other so-called political stuff I was never impressed with--it seemed much too earnest and reactionary (songs like 'Masters of War' and 'Blowin in the Wind' and 'The Times They are...').

God Baez was awful! She sounds so much better now!

But where was Ramblin' Jack? How can the Dylan story be told with absolutely no mention of Ramblin' Jack?

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 06:04 AM

The quote from the film I kept remembering was - 'he wrote good songs'. It was delivered almost apologetically - but it pretty much sums the whole thing up.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:00 PM

The narrative structure - forward and backward, and background and reminiscence, all rearranged - was surprising, but I found it was pretty effective. I suspect it might have been confusing to some people who aren't Dylan's generation, but a film about Dylan which wasn't confusing wouldn't really be in keeping with the man.

I'm looking forward to the second part - and I hope the video recorder worked, because I want to see the first part again, and the whole thing together.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:50 PM

good old bob
just the job
for a monday night
when you're feeling shite
I'll let him be on my screen
with his mercury mouth
and red white and blue shoe strings
and ric's a blues guitarist
she wears an Egyptian ring.
tales of the cafe wha and gerdes folk city
and monday night
won't be quite so shitty.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:37 PM

Well I hope that I enjoy Part 2 as much as I enjoyed Part 1.

It was nice to see and hear (again) - the early songs performed in context.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:45 AM

Personally I don't believe that Dylan ever meant all that myth stuff to be believed or taken seriously. Surely he was intelligent enough to realise that in the modern world everything is well ducumented: parent's occupations, birth certificates, church records, school records, college records, etc. He was just putting us on a little bit. I've known that such stories weren't true for about 35 years. It's time to move on and leave the personality aside and judge him only on his output. Bob wants privacy and he deserves it. Nobody owns him ("I'm nobody's puppet and nobody pulls my strings", 1986).

All Dylan did was write songs and issue records. His fans and the media did the rest.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:31 AM

Why is it so important as to why Dylan went "a-courtin" us?   Show me one artist who was discovered and never was involved with creating their image.

I'm not sure if Dylan is the kind of person you would want to count on as a friend, but since I never met the guy - I really don't care who manufactured the image. That is not the reason why I listen to his music. Most Hollywood actors have manufactured their image as well. It has nothing to do with being "honest", nor is it a character flaw.   I think most of us try to discover what we are.

Like any "authorized" biography, you won't get the true dirt behind the subject. I personally think it was a brilliant move to have Dylan interviewed by Jeff Rosen.   Dylan comes across more relaxed and open than in any other interview I've seen with him. I can certainly open up with my close friends, more so than I could to a total stranger.

Personally, I think Dylan is an incredibly creative songwriter.   I have the same feeling about a handful of others.   Dylan also released a lot of trash.   He is not a "God" and I don't think most of his fans treat him that way.

You can't be honest with yourself if you deny the impact that Dylan had on music and culture.   However, artists likes Dylan and the Beatles are merely links in the chain. They may have been a catalyst, but somebody had to mix the ingredients. They also started a chain reaction.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 07:59 AM

Newsday's review

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 07:35 AM

I think you miss the point there, Big Tim. Inventing the myths, lying about his background--those things apparently matter a great deal to the man who did those things: Bob Dylan. He went a-courtin us, not the other way around.

To some of us who don't share your enthusiasitic opionion about his body of work, it's the much more interesting conversation to have--the one about the icon building and icon smashing by Dylan himself. Nobody made him do those things. It's HIS LEGACY.

Subject: RE: BBC2/PBS Sept 26 No Direction Home
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:43 AM

I re-invented myself as a man once. No good though, my tits are too big too hide.
                      Love,
                     Geraldine xxx