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Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill (Andrew Hunter)

GUEST,Exiled Bankie 21 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM
jacko@nz 21 Sep 05 - 08:38 PM
jacko@nz 21 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 22 Sep 05 - 03:53 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 04:57 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 22 Sep 05 - 06:44 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 22 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,wherriebob 22 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,wherriebob 22 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM
Scotus 22 Sep 05 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,weerover 22 Sep 05 - 09:15 AM
Scotus 22 Sep 05 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,wherriebob 22 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,wherriebob 22 Sep 05 - 09:51 AM
Scotus 22 Sep 05 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,wherriebob 22 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM
Scotus 22 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 22 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 11:53 AM
Scotus 22 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 22 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM
John MacKenzie 22 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,wherriebob 23 Sep 05 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 23 Sep 05 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,wherriebob 23 Sep 05 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 23 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM
Brían 23 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM
Scotus 23 Sep 05 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,weerover 26 Sep 05 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Guest, Big Tim 26 Sep 05 - 09:49 AM
GUEST,Habbie 07 Jul 08 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Andy Hunter 31 May 10 - 01:23 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Exiled Bankie
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

Anybody have the words for this
EB


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Subject: Lyr Add: KILBOWIE HILL (Andrew Hunter)
From: jacko@nz
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:38 PM

KILBOWIE HILL

I was strolling down Kilbowie hill on a cold November day
The morning mist hung o'er me and the toon was dark and grey
My thoughts were wi' my broken love, the wound was there tae stay
And the shipyard cranes stand alane at the dawning of the day

I watched her running before me as she laughed her cares away
Soft as any summer's breeze across the Cartney brae
I never knew that love was mine, I chose tae slough away
And the shipyard cranes stand alane at the dawning of the day

And the Queen that stands against the dock will shortly sail away
The sun that shines upon her hull will shine through Clyde's clear spray
And I saw the light shining in her eyes as I wiped the tears away
And I saw her lying beside me at the dawning of the day

Enjoy,

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: jacko@nz
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM

Should have said.

Lyric by A Hunter.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM

Thanks very much Jack @ NZ
You'v made an old man very happy
EB


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:53 AM

I've never heard of a "Cartney Brae" in Clydebank, or Kilpatrick Hills, any ideas?
(The ships were launched at the mouth of the (white) River Cart).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:57 AM

Old Kilpatrick from which I assume the phrase Kilpatrick hills was coined. Similarly it may be that Cartney Brae, was a hill on a piece of land owned by somebody called Cartney or McCartney. I found this very interesting history of Clydebank which may yield some more information.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:59 AM

Old Kilpatrick sorry.
G


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:44 AM

Thanks Giok.

Actually I lived in Clydebank (Old Kilpatrick and Duntocher) for 15 years and was a librarian there for 20, heavily involved in local history (including the book, The Official History of Clydebank), in local community affairs and sport, yet I never heard of Cartney Hill!

I wonder where it is?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:53 AM

We had family friends who lived in Elm Rd in Parkhall, and I can remember visiting them as far back as the late 1940s, they had two sons one of whom worked for Singer's, while the father was an upholsterer with a firm called Rowan & Boden. So my association with the area goes back a long way, but I two cannot get a handle on the Cartney's Brae, and still think it's a corruption used locally.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM

I just spoke to an old Bankie friend, who lives in Dickens Avenue, Parkhall. His family, including many old Singer hands,go back three generations in Clydebank and know every street in the town and has never heard of Cartney's Brae.

The songwriter may have been looking from a high vantage point on Kilbowie Hill across the Clyde to the Renfrewshire Hills, Gleniffer Braes, etc. I've checked the OS map for that area and it's not there either.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

I read this lyric and used to sing the song some years ago; don't remember it being "Cartney Brae". Don't have it written down but will think about this or/and dig out the recording I learned it from.
Tune is the "Raglan Road" I believe.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:45 AM

The QE2 was launched from John Brown's shipyard, Clydebank


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Scotus
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:09 AM

I was fortunate to be asked to play guitar on Andy's only album (to date) 'King Fareweel'(Lismor LIFL 7002) back in 1984. He sings Kilbowie Hill on it as well as two other songs he wrote - 'Up and awa wi the Laverock' and 'King Fareweel' (the latter from a trad fragment). The rest of the songs are trad.

Andy comes originally from Clydebank, went to Aberdeen Uni and stayed with Jeannie Robertson during that time and now lives in Fife. he is one of the lecturers on the RSAMD degree programme in Scots Music. His singing of Scots ballads is absolutely wonderful!

When he recorded 'KH' he inadvertantly left out a verse - when I subsequently recorded the song on the album 'Lassie, Lassie' (Greentrax CDTRAX 027) I restored the 'missing verse'.

The Kilpatrick Hills my hairt wid fill, wi tears o November rain
Tho simmer sings her ain sang luve, it's never twice the same
She taught me verse and chorus, but the bonny air's away
And the wind saughs ower Kilbowie Hill, at the dawnin o the day

The tune, of course, is the pipe air 'The Dawinin o the day' as used for 'The Raglan Road'. Andy swears he had never heard 'The Ragaln Road' at the time he wrote 'KH'.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:15 AM

I think the location in question is "Cochnae Brae", which can be found on maps of the Clydebank area.

wr.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Scotus
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:34 AM

Weerover is spot on - it's Cochnae Braes.

Apologies for the previous typos - should have been 'Dawnin o the Day' and 'Raglan Road'.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for the extra verse Scotus. Glad the Brae thing's cleared up!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:51 AM

Also, thanks for the tune attribution. Does the "missing" verse go in before the QE2 verse?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Scotus
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:31 AM

Hi Wherriebob,

Yes - the 'missing' verse does go before the QE2 one. Andy also repeats the first verse at the end.

On his recording he mistakenly sang 'see' instead of 'stay' at the end of the third line first verse (I kept that when I recorded it - oral tradition, don't ya see!).

I think it's a lovely song and I'm sure it's from a true story.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM

Yes, I think it must be a recording of Andy singing that I learned it from where the first verse is repeated; probably from Archie Fisher's programme.   I was struck with it but stopped singing it at sessions some time ago. I don't know Andy's intentions obviously but the song, to me, can have a very dark interpretation. Did he kill her?

As a schoolboy I stood on the hillls above Greenock with my class and watched the QE2 as she sailed down the Clyde on her maiden voyage. It's a remarkable testament to the now all but lost skills of Clyde shipbuilding. The bow forms were constructed on machinery from the 1930s.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM

We lived in Belville Street in Greenock for a bit, and I remember standing on the hill beside the Free French Cross of Lorraine War memorial looking out across Cardwell Bay and seeing the American fleet anchored off the Tail o' the Bank. Then again I'm a wee bit older than you I think Wherriebob.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Scotus
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM

Wheeriebob -

I'm not aware of Andy having killed anyone - I meant that the song was based on a real 'lost-love' experience (I think).

I had a great aunt who lived most of her life in Clydebank including through the German blitz which almost destroyed the place and killed thousands. She eventually lived to the ripe old age of 102!

An interesting bit of folk history - Andy's recontructed 'King Fareweel' was recorded by Ray and Archie Fisher for inclusion on the Topic album 'The Fisher Family'(allegedly). When Andy heard what they'd done to the chorus he wouldn't let them. The replacement was 'The Rigs o Rye'.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:35 AM

I think it's actually Cochno, in fact I know it is. Well done wr!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:53 AM

Cochno Braes
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Scotus
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

Wow - that's impressive Giok!

My guess would be that Cochnae is a local pronunciation? In Scots 'no' often becomes 'nae'.

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 12:37 PM

David Wingate More poems by the author of Cochno Braes, some fine stuff here with lots of old Scots words.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM

Interesting Giok, thanks. The stream that David Wingate calls the Cochno is now known as the Greenside Burn, which flows out of Greenside Loch in the Kilpatrick Hills and enters the Clyde at Dalmuir. I used to go fishing there, it's about a quarter of a mile from where I used to live, in Hardgate (Duntocher)(Clydebank).

Incidentally, that part of the Kilpatrick Hills has many Cup and Ring Marked Stones as old as the Pyramids of Egypt.

Cochno Road separates Hardgate and Faifley, both areas of Clydebank.

Jack, re Cochnae, I can see where you're coming from but I don't think you're right! In my 20 years there, I never once heard Cochno called anything other than Cochno, not even by my own kids who had their fingers on the street pulse, nor by any of the members of Clydebank Athletic Club, of which, I'm proud to say, I was Secretary of for ten years. If I had a penny for every time I ran up or down Cochno Road, I'd be a rich man!

wr, what map did you get Cochnae from?                           

btw, drop me an email letting me know how things are in new venture


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM

There's a whole article and some illustrations regarding the standing stones the graves and the leys around the area.
Here
Giok


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 05:38 AM

Giok, Lyle Hill was my auld stompin' ground; and I've seen the fleet from there too. The David Wingate link is great. Cheers.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:21 AM

I made a mistake in my previous post, the result of writing from memory rather than from checked sources. Just for the record...

David Wingate's burn is indeed the Cochno Burn. It flows out of Jaw Reservoir/Cochno Loch. It merges with the Loch Humphrey Burn (also sometimes called the Greenside Burn, as it flows out of Greenside Loch, not actually Loch Humphrey, which is half a mile west of it, towards Dumbarton). Still with me? The Cochno and Humphrey (Humphrey was a medieval landowner) Burns merge about quarter of a mile from the foot of Cochno Road. This is the river that then skirts Parkhall, flows through Dalmuir Golf Course and enters the Clyde at Dalmuir, near the bottom of Mountblow Road.

I double checked "Cochno" with my Clydebank source. He is adamant (I had to try and calm him down!) that he never heard his parents or grandparents call it Cochnae, it was always Cochno.

There was a landed family in the area aclled Mackenzie, one of whom, was educated at Rodean and used to supply us with vegetables from her strictly organic farm, very close to the Cochno Burn.


Can't anyone contact Andy Hunter?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,wherriebob
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 10:20 AM

Andy's in hiding after doing his burd in;-)
So is that it the Brae confusion finally cleared up?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 11:49 AM

Not quite!

Wee Rover just phoned me (not about the song, he's down here this weekend and we're meeting up for a pint and a trad session in the Lorne Bar, Dunoon. Unlike me, he's a fine guitarist and a wonderful singer).

He reminded me that "Kilbowie Hill" is in Ewan McVicar's book, "One Singer One Song" and he does indeed spell the place name as "Cochnae". Both wr and I have the book.

Looks indeed like a "scottishization" of "Cochno".

So mystery finally solved: it's "Cochnae", tho, as far as I'm aware, Andy Hunter is the only Bankie ever known to have used that form of the name!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Brían
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM

This sleuth is so swift and relentless there is no time for the gum to stick to his shoe. The collar is yours, Tim!

B


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: Scotus
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 12:59 PM

Andy can probably be contacted via the RSAMD or even via Brian McNeill if you have a means of contacting him. Scottish Music page of RSAMD website here http://www.rsamd.ac.uk/music/scottish.htm

Jack


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:33 AM

It appears my imperfect memory processed the info wrong: all of the maps of the area refer to "Cochno". In any case, having met up with Big Tim over the weekend, I am more than convinced that his knowledge of the area is extensive. Sorry, Big Tim, that the session wasn't quite what we expected.

wr.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:49 AM

wr, loved your rendition of "Reconciliation". Email me and I'll send you a couple of pics of "Strone Castle", taken this very morning!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill
From: GUEST,Habbie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:20 AM

Hi all, I was fortunate enough to be taught this song by Andy when i was a student at the RSAMD, i now work for the Academy, but Andy moved on to pastures new (France) a few of years ago, unfortunatly i have lost touch with him I did tyr and email him a week or so ago but havnt had a reply, so if anyone knows how hes doing it would be good to hear

Alan Paterson
Traditional Music Project co-ordinator
RSAMD YouthWorks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Kilbowie Hill (Andrew Hunter)
From: GUEST,Andy Hunter
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:23 PM

I have just read through the above debate and I am duly impressed by the interest generated by this song. The lyrics are to be found in a special number of Arthur Argo's "Chapbook" together with other songs of my composition. I was anxious to set the record straight regarding lyrics and tunes at this time as an attempt had been made to hi-jack King Fareweel without my permission. Hamish Henderson subsequently gave a talk during an Aberdeen folk festival in which he very effectively made the distinction between the "folk" process and the "commercial" process. Arthur suggested I publish my songs with him and that was duly done.
As far as the Cochnae Braes are concerned it is true that most people would pronounce this "Cochno", but I lived on the said braes and was in close contact with local Scots speakers who would often refer to the area as "the Cochnae" following the Scots tendency (pointed out above to render "o" as "ae". But I had another reason for this; I deliberately sought alliteration and internal rhymes when these helped the lyrics obtain more musicality. The "ae" Cochnae rhymes with "ae" of "braes". Incidentally I always sing the following line when rendering The 51st Highland Division's Farewell to Sicily...Come tune up your pipes and drub the tenor drum DRAP your kit this side o the waa" Because I liked the alliteration between "drub" and "drap". Also I imagined the soldiers just letting his webbing and pack slip wearily off their shoulders rather than carefully "placing" it somewhere. Hamish told me he thought it was a distinct improvement and considered it the the folk process doing its work!
I was pleased to see Jack Beck recalling his role in my one and only big time album...Jack's contribution (together with that of Mike Ward was crucial to its success. Alan Patterson was a very able and attentive student of mine at the RSAMD and I am glad he is still so committed to our singing culture. he is a good song writer too!.
I am alive and well in Brittany and even still recording. This year Bonnie Rideout will bring out an Album featuring myself singing the Allan Ramsay version of Harlaw which is thought to be the oldest extant version. A couple of years ago I sang the Yowie wi the Crookit Horn featuring on an album made by the Dysart and Dundonald pipe band. I believe my KIng Farweel Album has been made available from a Canadian source. (cf the net)
I wish all my old friends in song all the very best.
Andy


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