Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie

Subject: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:57 PM

I just read a story that has me amazed.   Last week I received the Dylan:No Direction Home DVD before the PBS airing. After watching the film, I wondered how PBS would handle it.

I watched the broadcast on Channel 13 here in the NYC area. I was happy to see that WNET aired a disclaimer before the film started that it contained "strong language" and viewer discretion was advised.

I was happy to watch Joan Baez and her four-letter word reminisce of Dylan writing songs. It wasn't for shock value, it was simply a conversation.

So I assumed that PBS offered the same uncensored version to all their stations.   Wrong. Apparently Channel 13 in NYC was the ONLY station to offer the "uncensored" version. The other 348 PBS stations chose to air the "clean" version.

Well, I guess the Times They are-a Changin.   We are heading back to the Eisenhower error, I mean era. This country is running scared of a few words and a handful of individuals are determining what you and I have the right to watch.

Screw the FCC and conservatives.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM

The version I saw on PBS contained bleeps left, right and center. @#$%&*ing annoying.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

I guess you aren't in the NYC area Elmer!

I should congratulate WNET for have the courage and common sense to broadcast the film as the director intended.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:15 PM

Ron,

In Syracuse they were Blipped as well. No biggie for me but I do appreciate a non censored world.

Don

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Steve-o
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:18 PM

We were just talking about this around the lunch table. Our PBS station here in the "city of LA" puts bleeps in- I was saying that when Joanie was quoting Bob there were so many bleeps in a 35-word sentence that you had absolutely no clue as to what he might have been talking about! Stupid for the station to do that, but it actually came out pretty funny.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:25 PM

We got the bleeps on Georgia Public Television as well. This is the bible belt, after all, public TV or no public TV. But the bleeps did make it funny. Maybe even funnier than the actual words. Care to post them, Ron, for those of us who live in the censored areas?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM

Yeah, they did a fair amount of "bleeping" here in Seattle, too (KCTS Channel 9), but it doesn't take much imagination to fill in the expletives. I'm waiting for the DVD so I can watch it without some ding-dong trying to "filter" what I hear and "make it mild."

I'm not easy to shock, and Joanie's got style!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:34 PM

There were several "fucks" and a few "shits" scattered throughout, most notably from Joan Baez. (Something about that sentence doesn't sound right!)

Pete Seeger also said "Goddamn" at one point. I'm wondering if that was cut as well.

It just amazes me that in 2005 stations are afraid to air this uncensored. Granted it is public airwaves, but there was a disclaimer and it did not air during "family time".   I don't care if there is a bible belt or not, there should be no need to be afraid of words.

With that said, I do admit that I am cautious about what I play on my radio show. I don't care for gratiutous language - in fact I won't even play a song if the songwriter is particulary verbose!   However, I will NEVER bleep a word out of a song. I may not share the artists vision, but I will never change it.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: R. Padgett
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

This was shown on Uk Tv couple of nights ago I dont believe it was censored and I certainly heard Joan Baez use the f ,all quite in context and i wasnt offended

I thought the documentary movie we saw was very moving and gave a big back drop to the social history in the US in the mid 60s

How US attitudes have changed over the last 40 years on many issues is remarkable and certainly not something that the average working class brit is likely to have considered

Joan Baez account of how Bob was at that time was very revealing in terms of his music approach did he use the mouth organ as anervous prop in case he forgot the words??

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:10 PM

And meanwhile they are still not allowing photos of the coffins coming back from Iraq.

Making the world safe for hypocrisy.

yours,
Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:31 PM

When one considers how thoughtful Joan is about the power of language, it seems especially offensive that her own words should be censored in the context of a social documentary. I recall having a discussion with a friend about Brendan Behan's The Borstal Boy who thought it wasn't necessary for him to use offensive language to discuss the conditions of the British juvenile penal system. What I found most surprising about Behan's work was that it neither received nor needed much editing even with the offensive language.

I found the recorded criticisms of Dylan's improvisations with the harmonica and guitar strumming on live performances such as Mr. Tambourine Man particularly amusing. Dylan was continually composing in his live performances the same fashion any folk artist is continually modifying the words and melody to their own and others work.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM

It wasn't her language which annoyed me, just her fucking singin!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Regular--but for obvious reasons
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM

In the late 1960s, I lost a contract with a major label because I refused to take the word 'damn' out of a song. We were already at that time five songs into the record. The producer is now dead. He was a very well-known name in the music business--a name everyone would recognize. I mean him no disrespect, but "Fuck censors"!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 07:20 PM

I surely cannot disagree with Ron in his comments about censorship and why one part of the nation (NYC) can air it others are afraid to do that. Or unwilling.

That said, I wonder, however, given the strictures, sadly, imposed on broadcast radio/ TV is the NY outlet for PBS risking its license? If so--- good for them.

I have to admit that to adhere to my station's worries and cares I have bleeped out certain words ---only twice---a Billy Crystal piece that said: "...move your (fuckin') truck.   (---)was bleeped. The other was a John Prine piece---borderline. Great song and I did not want to lose it--so I eliminated the word "shit"==="...just when you're feelin' good a bird (shits) on your hood"---the rest was a wonderful polemic about the beloved W.

I suppose the question is at which point shall we draw lines. All things are in the eyes of the beholder. My own feeling is that one would hope that both Cable and over the air media know where to draw lines and the government should not be the arbiter of such things. I also will admit that I think that over the air media has a bigger responsibility than Cable/Satellite since they are using the public airwaves


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:32 AM

It's a sad state of affairs we're in when people are so afraid of a few words that everyone knows, and most have used with some frequency. There are a lot of truly frightening things in this world; Joan Baez saying "fuck" isn't one of them.

I feel bad for PBS stations that their current status is so tenuous that they have to worry about this stuff.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:43 AM

Joan Baez's language may have been shocking, but not half as shocking as her dreadful arremts to sing along with the glorious Bobby. Do you wonder she wasnt allowed in stage in England in 1965. It was like ladling blancmange onto a steak.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Do you think this is really a the best place to discuss censorship?

Do you think perhaps that it may be as well to first try and ensure that and you and I are free to express ourselves on our forum here - before using it to criticising censorship elsewhere?

You could try on this thread Censorship on Mudcat but this one has been subject to imposed censorship and closure.

Or even this one Closing threads but that has been subject to imposed closure also.

You could just try and join the debate on this one Opening threads a debate which has not been subject to any imposed closure YET………

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:11 AM

There is a difference - this is not a public forum, someone owns this site.   Radio and Television stations are granted licenses in the public trust.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:22 AM

Ron this is a discussion forum for public contributions on part of a website set aside by Max - for that very purpose.

In any case - the practical difficulties in obtaining freedom of speech here and on the public institutions with the differences in rights you mention - seem to be the same and probably for the same reasons.....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:29 AM

Yeah, I guess so.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:57 AM

Although the regular use of expletives on our forum (by certain posters) is not now thought a problem....

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 12:35 PM

However, I am not sure if our Joan would be so safe - if she decided to post the F word here.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:07 PM

Sounds like you have a few issues you are trying to work out. Good luck with them. I hope we can keep this thread on track.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 01:38 PM

Not only did we get bleeps here, in Colorado, our cable channels bleep out words AND partial nudity (unless it's bare-chested men), even after all kids should be in bed! I thought that's what why we have cable...uncensored drama, comedy, etc.!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 03:04 PM

Interesting to read peoples' negative reactions to Baez on this thread. I thought she looked as glorious as ever, and given Dylan's shabby treatment of her, was generous, humorous, circumspect and dignified in her assessment of him and his role in her life. She earned the right to more than a few expletives from aspects of that relationship, and chose not to employ them in a negative manner--publically, at least. Good for her.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,wildlone
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:24 PM

The bbc website has clips on, http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/bobdylan/
dave

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,talk dirty to me baby.. yeah!!!
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

you pervy old gits..


you just get off on listening to women talking nasty!!!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Brían
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

Well said, Elmer Fudd.

B

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: jaze
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:07 PM

Ditto, Brian.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:03 PM

It isn't about cowardice. It's about the huge fines the FCC is levying against stations that allow "the seven words you can't say on television" to be said on television.

$500,000 is a bit steep for most PBS stations. NYC stations have a much larger piece of the public broadcasting pie than, say, Richmond, VA or Boise, ID so can probably afford to take the chance to let the f--- bombs fly.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: van lingle
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:32 AM

They bleeped them in SW Florida, Ron.
What was really remarkable to me was the magnificent sound of Joan's guitar when she played a snippet of "Love is Just a Four Letter Word." Probably was a Martin 0-45 Joan Baez model as it looked rather new. Anyone know for sure? Enough to give a fellow GAS.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:59 AM

Elmer Fudd: your spirited defence of Joan Baez is great. I grant you the dignity, the beauty, the great voice, the fact that Dylan treated her badly, everything. But the fact is, as anyone who watched the film will have noticed, that she completely wrecked Bob Dylan's performance of his very crucial songs, by attempting to join in with them.
So the guy was an artist who had to maintain his own standards, and eventually prevented her from trying. Cruel, sure, but it had to be doe.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:47 AM

Actually, as Joan points out, singing with Bob was difficult at the best of times. It is interesting in the film that she does an amazing job of singing harmony with him on "With
God On Our Side" -- he is all over the place. That she even found a harmony is amazing. I hardly think she wrecked his songs -- he certainly wrecked hers (listen to the Carnegie Hall concerts) -- they were just going in different directions, could happen to anyone.

On the DVD Joan actually sings the whole of Love Is Just A Four Letter Word, very well. I was interested to hear Dylan say she was an excellent guitarist. I have never thought she was much of a guitarist.   I am with Elmer -- she came across as not only beautiful but funny and mature.

Having now seen the film, I think it increasingly bizarre that the words were bleeped out. Whatever you think, "play it fucking loud" is a historic phrase!!!

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:57 AM

Sex In the City on channel ten here, and on channel nine, Baez being bleeped. Actually, I didn't mind the bleeps at all, cause I knew what they were bleeping out. It was obvious. It didn't bother me at all. And it actually was more entertaining to watch her being bleeped than if they let the words through.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:04 AM

I hated Joan's early voice--too forced and phony sounding. Her voice is beautiful now though. But listening to the two of them sing together was just painful. Though it did flash through my mind "how do you harmonize with a bleating goat?" And no, I wasn't thinking Joan.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:19 AM

How does one wreck a Dylan singing performance?

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 09:31 AM

Exactly my point, Mr. Greenhaus.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 11:52 AM

Yes, yes... (yawn)

I always loved hearing Bob and Joan sing together. It was marvelous. That means I had a good time listening to them and you didn't.

Life's tough, isn't it?

I suggest listening to something you DO like instead, and talking about that. It's way more fun.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 12:31 PM

What makes you think I'm not having lots of fun discussing Dylan?

See, the problem with Dylan worshippers like you Little Hawk, is that you are so pig headed and stubborn in your insistence we all just worship Dylan and be done with it. That we not discuss the particulars of his artistic life and influences. If you are such a great Dylan fan, why aren't you interested in discussing any aspects of his life and work?

Your insistence upon remaining pig ignorant of Dylan and the cast of characters he surrounded himself with reminds me very much of the journalist who insisted that the Triumph t-shirt "meant something".

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:01 PM

I love discussing his artistic life and influences. Have been doing so ever since about 1969. Which specific aspects would you like to discuss today?

(keep in mind that I'm kind of busy today, and I may take some time responding, though...)

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:04 PM

Oh, and...who are you? I find talking to a completely nameless vacuum to be an unrewarding experience. You see, some other asshole similar to yourself may answer this, pretending to be you, and no one will have any way to know it is you...which is useless, right? Think about it.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:07 PM

You're right, Little Hawk. I am an asshole. A complete asshole. Always have been. Everything I posted about Dylan on this thread comes from a place of ignorance so deep that I feel sick every time I look in the mirror. Even my dog hates me. I am shit personified. Ignore anything further that I post here.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:09 PM

There, see?

Now how are we to know if that really was you or not?

Get a name, and get a life, or alternatively, just fuck off. Gently.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:15 PM

I heard Baez and Dylan sing together live at a time when they were in love, when Bob's star had risen and they were both musical royalty to millions. Who cared whether their voices blended harmoniously? It was mesmerizing to watch them interact and to feel their mutual passion for their beliefs and values, for Dylan's creativity, and for each other. A measure of that electricity came across in footage of one of the Newport Folk Festivals, when they walked out on stage holding hands and sang "With God on Our Side." They obviously were aware of their power as a couple and reveled in it.

However, you cannot experience the full effect of the magic that their better live performances (Joan explained that Dylan's moods were unpredictable and she had to roll with the punches) worked on audiences during those few brief years from film and recordings. Unfortunately for history, ya had to be there.

I also marvel to realize that they were soooooo young.

Elmer

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 03:26 PM

You are describing it just as it was, Elmer. Well said. I thought Joan did a super job harmonizing to Bob's melody lines, and she was teriffically adaptable to the changes, of which there were many. Bob tends to be unpredictable. There are some great photos of those duets, and you can feel the magic even there, without hearing the music or the voices.

The juxtaposition of Joan's very pure-toned voice with Bob's rough, Guthrie-esque-cum-Ramblin'JackElliot approach was interesting and curiously effective, in my opinion. It beats hell of out listening to duets such as Diana Ross and Lionel Ritchie (who are technically both darned good singers, but...they do pure schlock).

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:48 PM

But they were out of tune!!

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: GUEST,whaaaa!!!??
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:06 PM

hey elmer mate..


starting to sound like this thread is drifting into gushing
celeb worshipping soap opera territory

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM

I think it is inappropriate to apply "in" or "out" of tune to Dylan; better to think of Dylan as operating in a "tune field" rather than "in" or "out" of tune: it is more like the German Sprechstimme: tones in a tune field.

(I thought I would try something ridiculously pretentious).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:21 PM

Well, I think they were both in different fields, Peter, shouting over the hedges.

Subject: RE: Joan Baez- uncensored Dylan Movie
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:28 PM

greg stephens, it is impossible for any of us to know whether Dylan's refusal to return Baez's favor by including her in his concerts was for artistic or other reasons. I think Ron Olesko said it well on another thread. He's not a guy one would necessarily want to have as a friend or neighbor, but we have been enriched by his artistic genius.

Elmer