Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 12:06 PM

The "problems" that forced me to try a 9-sting, and then eventually go to a 000-18 with slackened strings, WASN'T the playability of the Martin guitar. It was the natural progression of my MS.

Thr Martin guitar was great until I turned it into matchsticks by closing the car trunk on it.

Old friend, Jan Burda, in Berian Springs, Michigan literally put it back together again just beautifully---but by then I couldn't play it even as a 6-string with looser strings. I couldn't wield it's size. My rendition of "Handful Of Songs" on that '98 CD is much less than I would've liked it to be. But that night when we all played music for Bob Gibson, a week before he passed on, was very special for me, so I used that live track.----- Our son, Chris, has the D-76 guitar now.

Keep pickin' !! (and appreciate what you can do.)

Art

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 09:59 AM

CPX reference was to weelittledrummer.

As to that intonation issue -

It sounds as if the luthiers you have used so far are agreed that the issue is saddle positioning.

Next step therefore has to be either removing and repositioning the bridgeplate, or routing a wider saddle slot and then partly filling the new widened slot so as effectively to reposition the saddle. This in turn may mean (depends on spacing) plugging and redrilling (and tapering) new pin holes.

You can get a fair idea of how far out the guitar is by comparing the harmonic at the octave with the fretted note at the octave. You can retune the adjacent string for a reference if you don't trust your ear or an electronic tuner. If the difference appears large you may even be able to measure the length difference required with a tape measure. Always do this with new strings on - old strings may have become non-uniform in diameter. If the octave is right, you have a fretting problem.

You can also determine the right position experimentally. You will need an old saddle. File it down until it roughly does nothing - simply fills the saddle slot up to the level of the wood. Now take something like a giant paperclip bent straight, or a long thin nail with the head cut off, or a plastic cocktail stick. Put it pretty much where the saddle slot is. Now slide it (carefully, so as not to break it if it's plastic) backards and forwards until the harmonic octave is the same as the fretted octave. That is where the saddle (for that string) needs to be.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 09:38 AM

Richard,
Just to try to extend /answer your thoughts, there is no bowing, its quite a true neck and the luthier has taken the saddle slot to its limit for adjustment. What I need is a luthier with another trick up his sleeve , as I suppose luthiers - in the same way as any craftsmen - there are some who can tackle normal problems, and, some who have a little extra to source and cure unusual occurences.
The average player wouldn't realise where I find fault and I repeat it is still an emminently fine guitar but ....but.......

Story time ..........
I still have 2 Nos Yamaha FG 180's circa 1971 which were a well made copy of the D-28. Yamaha made them really well to get into the market.
I had bought a Harmony Sovereign , and when I got it home from the shop I put on the brand-new strings the shop had provided me as part of the deal. To my horror when I tuned it all up - and twanged a chord - the bridge pulled off the front of the guitar. The shopkeeper offered me the FG 180, and gave me some money back as it was less expensive than the Sovereign.
I had many many years of pleasure from playing it,and I confess on occasions to not giving it the care and respect it deserved . A true workhorse !!Incidentally the 2nd one was bought not out of greed / possession - years ago a guy who was getting married offered it to me as he needed the cash and he wasn't such an avid player anyway.   

Incidentally,I don't know if I've got my wires crossed, but when you mentioned Yamaha CPX series - I assume you were replying to another message - you lost me with THAT reference - it's easy to lose me these days !!!.

Cheers Betsy.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 09:10 AM

The qustion was about the cost of martin guitars.

Most people will have their own favourites, and this will often colour their own views. I have owned many different makes, Martin, Gibson, Ovation, Dobro, Fylde, Yamaha ( even Suzuki) etc, and have played many more. Always, the guitar that I currently play is 'THE BEST'. I have never ownes a Taylor, although I have played a few and agree that they are a very fine instrument.

There does seem to be a lot of unjustified 'Martin Knocking'going on at the moment which is a little unfair. Martins are undoubtedly a good guitar, some of them are great, my own Dh28 is brilliant, and I have yet to hear a guitar that would suit me better. But just because you are a particular fan of 'x' manufacturer, does not mean that'y' manufacturer is crap. A freind of mine has an Epiphone j200 that is absoloutly stunning, yet remarkably cheap.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:53 AM

THe CPX series Yamahas are designed to be amplified LOUD. So the tops have to be fairly rigid or when the PA rig is turned up, instant feedback.

Intonation is a simple matter of string length and tension. If luthiers cannot improve the intonation (eg by repositioning the saddle slot, a fairly trick task, if there is not enough meat on the saddle to fix it there) then it can only be frets or neck progression. If there is too much forward bow on the neck, you will pull the strings sharp when fretting, but a luthier should have spotted that.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:10 AM

A large number of pickers have told me that my Taylor is an outstanding guitar, and that not all Taylors are that good. Well, that's possible, this one has a serial number of 4 digits (1982) So it has had time to mellow. It has been played by scores of pickers and not one of them has had a bad word for it. Nine out of ten have been very impressed with it, and some wanted to buy it.

As I have said, I have played them all, and I've owned most of them. I've played professionally for 55 years and no guitar has suited me better than this one.

Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:53 AM

Of course guitars all have their specific sounds, tones etc. which appeal to specific individuals .... and like Kendall, I don't think anyone in this thread said Martin's are junk ... funny, how one will stickup for their preferred guitar model with such passion only paralleled by their choice of pickup truck or breed of dog.

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:51 AM

I agree with everyone on this thread - so to speak!!
Please remember I wriite this as someone from the North East of England and not an hours drive from Nazereth.
I have 2 Martins - '94 HD 28 bought brand new ,I've nurtured it - I never play it when wearing a buttoned shirt so I don't scratch the back - don't care how hard I play it in sessions and the like .When I say I agree with everyone , I've definitely played better guitars esp. of the Taylor ilk ,the HD 28 has problems around the 12th Fret compared to playing around the first 5 frets . I've taken it to Martin-approved Luthiers with no improvement, but still it is a beautiful sound if you play / select songs which do not demand you playing at the top of the fret board.
The problem I have identified is most irritating to me, but seemingly non-existent to some people, when I have tried to show / let them listen to the fault.
It was only when I became a lot more adventurous and thought about a cutaway - and I don't know the series Nos. - ( to know if I'm going to assit weeliittledrummerboy question ) - but I bought a Martin DCX1E Dreadnought.
I thought had got a bargain - however when I showed it to my Luthier friend - he said Jeez!! I din't know Martin were making formica guitars these days !!! .( Only the neck and the front are natural wood ). Fact of the matter is - it is a superb play - true as anything I have ever played ,and ,most importntly is very true, well-past the 15th fret , and loads of quality sound ,so I am well pleased.
It was half the price of the HD and came with all the DI stuff ( not on the HD 28) which has already been proved at concerts which I have done. Superb value . The comparison to the cars, which some have made is valid, I think the HD is a Rolls Royce - but as with any quality product in which humans are involved they are bound to vary slightly in finished product.
Nevertheless I think Martin should sit up and take notice as they appear to be arrogant about their product and seem to take the attitude that their product is the best, and, any percieved fault must lay with th player / purchaser.
I would like Martin to provide some expert service /guidance /advice especially in the U.K. - after all what is the old addage ? it takes years and years to build the reputation for being the best, and only a very short time to lose it.
Whatever you're playing, I hope you get as much enjoyment out, as you are putting-in.

Cheers Betsy.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:07 AM

I dunno I went to this seminar at Fylde Folk festival with Ken Nicol. Great player. he's thought stuff about guitars that just hasn't occurred to me.

he was saying a cedar topped instrument was probably better in terms of the sort of fingerpicking that he and I do. Only he does it better.

Since when I've handed my guitar (cpx8 yam) to a couple of luthiers, clever guys and they both think its a pretty crap instrument. laminated sides so the sound won't improve apparently. Too much strutting inside (overbuilt was the term both of them used!). Apparently Yamaha build them like that so they can be shipped around the world safely. They both said what I had paid the money for (£625 or so) was the electrics inside - which are very good.

I'm getting on -the opportunities for getting things right diminish. I was watching Alan taylor last weeek. he's definitely got his guitar sound right. To be quite honest - I sort of agree with you - why spend a lot more money when hardly anybody would notice a difference. whatever happens its not going to turn me into alan taylor, or Bob Dylan, or Martin carthy.....yeh sod it, why bother?

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 05:24 AM

Your Yamaha sounds good to me w.l.d.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 04:33 AM

Has anybody any experience of these models. I am at the looking hard stage.

OOOC16SGTNE and the OOOC16SRNE

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 03:21 AM

Right on the nail, Bobert.

And certainly in the UK, Martins are no more expensive than Taylors, Santa Cruzes, etc., unless you start going along the 'exotic' road.

Choice of instrument is dependent on many personal factors. The sound I like may be totally different from the next guy, and my views on what a guitar should look like aren't shared by everyone. For a player of one brand to slag off another brand seems a bit daft to me, the beauty is in the eye (and ear) of the beholder. You try out instruments until you find one that fits your personal requirements - from then on, it's the best. Doesn't matter a toss what others think, as long as you're a happy man.

Personally I find Taylors very comfortable to play, but they sound like Taylors which isn't a sound that grabs me. My Martin's harder to play, but the sound is PRECISELY what I want, and she looks real pretty, so for me it's a no-brainer. Others, like Kendall, will disagree - fine, variety makes the world go round.

IMNSHO.
S:0)

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 10:56 PM

I'll take a Dodge Ram pickup Truck over a Ford 150 anyday

... just a diversion from this guitar debate.

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 10:54 PM

Who said Martins are junk?

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 09:35 PM

The playability issue is, in the majority of cases, due to the fact that Martin so often ships new guitars with the nut slots cut too high. I guess they figure that old bluegrass dudes like them that way ("It can't be a Real Man's Guitar if it doesn't take a lot of strength to play it, and hurts some.") and that everyone else can have them lowered if they don't like it. Most Martins need a setup after you buy them, seems like. And I speak as a Martin lover.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:51 PM

Now I will have to weigh back in on Kendall's statement regarding playability... No, Martins aren't at the top of the list in that category... They are somewaht difficult to play compared to Taylors, or even Ovations fir thast matter...

But as Art has pointed out, we Martin playersd aren't after playability, but tone and. yeah, I can pick out a good martin's tone over a good Taylor's tone... No, don't go throwin' cheapie Martins into the mix witrh 20 other Martin/Taylor wantabees... That is a rediculous exercise indeed...

But give me one decent Martin and one decent Taylor and I'll pick the Martin, blind folded, every time...

Yeah, I realize that everybody just loves the tone they get from their instruments and I'm no different... But I perform with two resonators and my Martin so my listenin' tastes are all over the place and I expect different tones from each one... I also occasionally perform with a Hohner acoustic which has yet another distinct tone to it...

I guess it comes down to what you like... Some folks like Coke, others Pepsi...

But it ain't right fir anyone to say that Martin's are junk because thoser of us who have grown up playin' them know that's just a bunch of crapola...

MO...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:49 PM

Contrary to the views expressed by some above, the only "high end" guitar I know on which I find the intonation jarring is a particular very attractive looking Taylor. I'm not a pro Martin bigot but I have only come across one Martin ever that I felt failed to measure up - an all-mahogany one which seemed to lack the characteristic Martin "ring". Played in comparison with other instruments it was plenty OK - it just didn't sound like a Martin.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:46 PM

Kendall,

I'm glad you enjoy what I was doing. I appreciate it.

That particular CD had some tracks from the 1970s, some from the 1980's, and the last track, Jerry Rasmussen's "Handful Of Songs", was recorded at Bob Gibson's farewell party, in Sept. of 1996.

There were 3 different guitars (sort of) on the CD:

1) the D-76 as a 6-string guitar.
2) the D-76 as a 9-string guitar.   
3) a 000-18 (6-string) that I went to after I couldn't manage playing the dreadnaught any more---tuned quite loose and low. (By then I was trying anything to make fretting the instrument easier.)

Art

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Gurney
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:25 PM

I've heard some lovely Martins. Lovely enough to comment on. I saw ONE at a luthier's about 1980, brand new, "can you do anything," which had discoluration where the strutting glue had soaked through the belly! All of it. Caveat emptor.

Never owned an expensive guitar myself, but I do have a good ear.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 04:55 PM

One of the many features I like about the Taylor is the neck. I can play "F" by wrapping my thumb over the 6th sting instead of the usual position. That fat club Martin uses for a neck makes that near impossible.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:56 PM

"Both the Gibson and the Martin were two of the better ones I had ever played but neither could hold a candle to the Taylor."

Exactly Kendall !!

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM

Sherlock...thank you, thats what I thought. This is a great site with lot's of well-informed and helpful people. It's just the nature of the internet that it will always attract a few lonely losers.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:21 PM

By the way, Art Thieme,

Pretty good return on a $6 investment -- Elderly's, in the past few weeks, just sold a D76 they had listed at $1800. I noticed it because I have a friend who bought one new and I take note when one pops up from time to time.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM

Barbara,

I'm another happy HD28 owner. Quite the workhorse.

I needed something to carry the low end of a trio, so I traded an OM size for it. Just a practical consideration. What surprised me, as I got to know this thing, was how well it handled everything -- not just the fiddle tune and backup thing, but fingerstyle stuff as well. I absolutely love the sound of it capoed 3 or even higher -- love that as much as the rumble it's capable of when I need it. Extremely well built.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Sherlock Holmes (friend of Doc Watson)
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 03:11 PM

GUEST, Maurice, just ignore Martin Gibson. He is the Village Idiot. If anyone doesn't share his narrow, ill-informed opinions, he gets sarcastic, insulting, and more often than not, obscene. Just consider the source and treat it accordingly.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 02:57 PM

Martin Gibson...what's this with the coloured dots remark? That's the comment of a bad-mannered fool. I like Taylor frets, I like Gibson frets, I don't like Martin frets. I've played many instruments over the last forty or so years. If you have a different opinion, fine.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 02:50 PM

I've played them all, I've owned most of them, and I know what I'm talking about. Anyone who knows anything at all about guitars knows that intonation problems are in the neck of the guitar and nowhere else.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 02:15 PM

People often hand me their special guitar to try out, and I've never tried anything I like better than my 1985 HD28 Martin. Tried a few bad Martins (from the 70's!) before this one showed up via George Youngblood, world-class luthier. I'm done. Don't care how good anything else is, this one is all I need.

About the durability: last weekend I started out a gig with my Herringbone on a stand near the front of the stage as our band was getting ready to begin. Somehow the wind caught the thing and blew it off the stage onto the grass below!! I literally screamed into the live single mic, and the entire audience witnessed my panic. Unbelievably, although the guitar was certainly bounced around, it was fine, and didn't even need re-tuning. It took ME awhile to recover, but the Martin was fine, thank you very much.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:43 PM

It seems to me that the frets on Martins are very low and I don't like them. I got one refretted with regular fretwire and the improvement was unbelievable. I know people must like these low frets (1,000,000 Martin owners can't be wrong) but for me it's a very negative feature.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:30 PM

It's possible that the bad intonation you come across Kendall originates in your left hand, rather on so many Martins as you claim.

Bev and Jerry's post nailed it on the head.

And you can get a dud in any guitar. But living up to an ovedr 150 year reputation as the best, as CF Martin does, and considering the amount of guitars they make is very remote.

Besides, Taylors have no soul and many guitars look pretty stupid without a pick guard.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 12:47 PM

Art, I've been playing your CD titled The older I get the better I was, and your guitar playing is excellent. I can't tell what guitar you are playing but it is a kick ass instrument in your hands. It sounds like a Martin D 28 or maybe a D 45. Which is it?

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 12:06 PM

Martin has always been my guitar of choice. It always sounded the best to my ears. It had the sound I wanted. On occasion I played other guitars --- a Gurian that went bad--an Alvarez Yairi.

But the big Dreadnaughts were perfect for what I did!! The large booming bass, and the clarity just always got better and better as the guitar aged. I could only manage to have one main instrument at a time, so when I had to have the instrument's neck or body repaired I then traded one D-28 for another because I couldn't be without the guitar for any real length of time. The trick was to trade "up".

BUT the Martin is not always an expensive guitar!

The Martin model D-76 was a Dreadnaught put out in a limited edition (exactly $1,976.00 if I'm remembering right) to celebrate the 200th Bicentennial birthday of the USA. For that era and time, the price was so high that nobody around the Old Town School Of Folk Music in Chicago could or would pay the asked price for the one at the Folklore Center. They decided to raffle the guitar off!!

The tickets went on sale for $3.00 each ! I bought two of them!!

The night of the raffle I had a gig in a combination bowling alley and folk club in Crown Point, Indiana -- where John Dillenger had once escaped from jail. During one of my sets, the phone rang, and I said into the mike, "That call is for me. I just won a Martin in a raffle in Chicago!!!"

Well, for some reason my "premonition" was right! I answered the phone saying, Where and when can I pick it up!!!!

Bottom line is that after my gig at "The Cave" (I think it was called) I drove through an ice storm to arrive back in Chicago about 3:00 AM. The all night George Washington Day Party was in full swing at the Old Town School. I walked in to a chorus of loud "BOOS" and a couple hundred drunken folkies/friends yelling good naturedly (I hoped) things at me like, "IT WAS A FIX. IT WAS A FIX!!" --------------- One guy, John Calhoun, was wearing a sport jacket and trousers with all the raffle tickets he'd bought trying to win pinned to it---about 40 of them.

But that Martin D-76 guitar cost me, I figure, $6.00 !!!!!

The guitar got better and better over the years---even after I drilled 3 holes down the center of the tuning stock and made a 9-string guitar out of it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,J
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 11:58 AM

Went to buy a Martin @ Dick Lurie's Guitar Store in Cleveland Heights, Oh. Mr. Lurie had a rep for being a pompous, opinioniated, sarcastic pain in the rear, but he knew guitars in and out. Segovia stayed at his house when he would come to Cleveland for a concert. When he asked me why I wanted a Martin I said, "Because they're the best and I want the best!"
He replied, imperiously, "Go stand over there and turn your back!"
He strummed at least 10 guitars and asked me to judge the tonal qualities of each. For a solid hour at least. I picked five I liked...they were ALL Guriens. The ones I didn't like were ALL Martins.
He repeated the process with the Guriens and I chose an S3M(Size 3 Mahogany) as being the best balance of bass/treble, projection, warmth, etc.
When I made my selection he looked at me with genuine respect, affection and warmth and said, "Young man you have chosen my favorite steel string guitar in the store. If you will pay the sales tax on the full retail price I will sell you the guitar at my cost, agreed?"

$350.00 with a hard shell case out the door...are you kidding?

For years afterward everytime I would go there he would give me a set of strings and showed me great kindness. So much for his reputation.

Years later the Gurien was stolen as was a '64 Martin D-18S I had. Have had a '67 D-18, '69 D12-35, '57 D-18, '67 D-18S, '77 D-35S. Was never fully satisfied with any of them.

Had a 'Dove'(brand name of Jan Burda at the time) fashioned on the S model Martins made from red cedar and black walnut. Scalloped bracing. The BEST sounding guitar new, used, vintage, foreign or domestic I have ever heard. Including Lowdens, Goodall, Santa Cruz, Whitebrook, etc. Had to sell it to relieve a tax problem(f**king blood sucking leeches!).

Spoken from personal and professional experience, Martin's are over priced, inconsistant and overrated. Like the little girl with the little curl...

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 11:51 AM

De gustibus non disputandum est.

Other people's preferences and obsessions never make sense.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 10:35 AM

Too many to count. And I didn't say that all Martins suck. I said their intonation sucks. However, a good luthier can cure that.

Lookie, I didn't decide that Taylor makes better guitars before I bought this one, I decided it after playing this one.
Everytime I go into this particular store, the owner hands me a guitar and says, "Try this one." I always humor him and have a go at whatever he's pushing that day, and at the time I was quite happy with my HD28 Martin, and to a lesser extent with my Gibson J-45.
I brought home the Taylor and the other two went by the boards. Both the Gibson and the Martin were two of the better ones I had ever played but neither could hold a candle to the Taylor.

I stand by what I said. For value buy a Martin; for playability a Taylor.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 09:26 AM

Then, Kendall, that is posibly why Martins are played by virtually all of the best and most well respected players. They all suck - come on! There may have been a few that have sliped through the net, as any manufacturer may have problems like this, but some of martins best production was in the seventies. Just how many duds out of how many martins that you have tried were out like this?

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Auggie
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 09:09 AM

Kendall knows whereof he speaks. I have one of those damn 70's D-19 Martin's and my bridge was misplaced by over a quarter inch. It was evidently made during a strike/work stoppage/lockout/whatever by management (keep shuffling those papers, but stay the heck away from the shop floor,ok?).

Mine was resurrected by a wonderful luthier named Bruce Petros who by the way, creates some really impressive fingerstyle guitars
(http://www.petrosguitars.com/)

Still, I haven't seen a Taylor (or anything else) that could touch my Brazilian D-41.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:23 AM

Then my friend, you haven't played many
Martin guitars. Their intonation sucks. Period.I've seen more than a few that came through with the bridge off by as much as 1/4 of a inch. They are like buying a new car and having to give it a complete tune up before you can drive it.

Many years ago, Packard made the top of the line in American cars. Anyone who was anyone drove a Packard. Then in the 50's they allowed their quality to slip and within a few years they went under. Martin was headed the same way, riding on its reputation, but fortunatly they woke up and felt Taylor nipping at their heels. Now they are back to building good guitars.
If I were going to buy another Martin it wouldn't be one made in the 70s.

It always gives me pleasure to hand my Taylor to a Martin lover and watch his reaction as he plays it.Instant converts. One well known collector/picker played it and was both amazed and crest fallen. he said, "This sounds as good as my vintage Martin for which I just paid $10,000!" So much for value. In my opinion, playability and sound are far more important than resale value. Of course, if I owned a music store I'd fill it with Martins

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 06:24 AM

Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?



It is because they use only the finest quality plastic.


No. Seriously, they are GREAT guitars, don't believe that rubbish about the intonation being out, I have never come across a dud yet.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Sherman Haygold
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 02:25 AM

just out of curiosity..

apart from legitimate far eastern licensed copies of big brand name
US guitars..

there is now an increasing traffic in couterfeits produced to dupe unwary
collectors and investors..

valuable vintage Fenders are so easy to replicate down to every aged and rusted detail..

and neither do gibsons or other collectable brands escape the attention of skilled forgers..

the profit margins in taking eg.. a good $500 Jap copy,
putting in the hours of skilled labour required to
'age & authenticate' even down to copying internal factory
production process lables and handwritten quality control checks etc..

its all worth the effort if an unsuspecting collector can be conned out of thousands of $$$$$..


so has this counterfeiting criminality inevitable consequences for high value acoustic guitar investment market..



how certain can you be that what you purchased is really
what you beleive it to be..????

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 02:23 AM

About a year ago we took the tour of the Martin factory in Nazareth, PA. They have about 700 employees there and everything except the fancy inlay work found on models like the D-45 is done there. They turn out a little over 200 instruments a day.

Everything is done by hand. There is virtually no automation. Each person does a single step with extreme care and to a specification. It is amazing to see all these people doing hand work like sanding parts and very carefully fitting them together.

After the tour we told the guide that before the tour we thought Martin guitars were expensive. Now we think they're cheap.

This description should be compared to the Taylor factory which, we are told, is one hundred percent automated.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:37 AM

If they did, they probably wouldn't admit to it.

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: biglappy
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:35 AM

Martin guitars have set a high standard for such a long time that there are plenty of excellent older instruments to hear and play. There are plenty of other good guitars. Many of them are better one-on-one than some Martins. Nevertheless a century and a half on top of the heap earns a instument maker a lot of respect.

There isn't any maker of guitars that has a larger number of excellent guitars out there in the hands of serious players.

They sound great. They are solid and durable. They have a great reputation. Everyone who buys one makes money as it ages and gains value.

They cost too much for what you get, but I still have yet to meet someone who bought a Martin and regretted their decision later.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Hayman Shergold
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:10 AM

nope... mine measures over 7".. which aint too bad when alls considered.

I'd happily accept a martin if someone wants to give me a present..


but if its my own money, I'll spend it wisely after much research
and guitar testing

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:04 AM

"But overall, I would think the Martin name still outsells the Taylor name, based on reputation for quality, brand loyalty, and of course resale value."

I'll agree to that MG.

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:02 AM

.. but then again there are are also Collins, Goodalls, Estebans, Santa Cruz ... hell you don't have to buy one of the legacy makes these days to have a good guitar!

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Hayman Shergold
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 01:00 AM

Resale values can mirror public opinion and reputation for quality.

but can just as equally mirror consumer insecurity,
gullibility,
lack of personal judgement in the face of prevailing'carved in stone'received opinion,
irrational denial of alternative options,
blind prejudice.. etc.. etc..

very complex dynamics and behaviour at play in 'the market'

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 12:57 AM

All Martin guitars, like all Taylors are not created equal. for Martins, anything lower than the Standard Series D-18 is a sub pro model, filling a price range niche. Martin makes D size guitars like the DM at $500. A fine guitar for the money and better than some piece of nato wood from Yamaha, probably. Is that a better guitar than some $1800 Taylor. for sure, probably not.

But overall, I would think the Martin name still outsells the Taylor name, based on reputation for quality, brand loyalty, and of course resale value.

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: number 6
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 12:49 AM

Hmmmmm .... funny ... I try Marins out in the music stores ... some are absolutely fantastic (case in point a D-35) and some are duds. Lately they have to be one of the most inconsistant guitars out there. I agree, if you find a good one, and you got the money buy it ... Taylors, are probably the most consistant (in good sound, tone, resonance) guitars out there ... and the polls I have been reading select the Taylor 810 as the best on the market, Martin is coming in second.

sIx

Subject: RE: Why are Martin Guitars so expensive?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 12:42 AM

Resale values can mirror public opinion and reputation for quality.

Case in point: Toyota vs Ford

But if you're happy to settle for anything but the best............................