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BS: Politics only posters on Cat

Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 05 - 06:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 05 - 06:48 PM
Divis Sweeney 09 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM
Peace 09 Oct 05 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 09 Oct 05 - 07:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 05 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 09 Oct 05 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 09 Oct 05 - 07:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 05 - 07:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 05 - 07:55 PM
Divis Sweeney 09 Oct 05 - 08:17 PM
Divis Sweeney 09 Oct 05 - 08:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 02:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 02:17 AM
The Shambles 10 Oct 05 - 02:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 03:49 AM
Paco Rabanne 10 Oct 05 - 04:13 AM
The Shambles 10 Oct 05 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 05 - 04:29 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Oct 05 - 04:51 AM
ard mhacha 10 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 05 - 05:14 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Oct 05 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 05:21 AM
Paco Rabanne 10 Oct 05 - 05:27 AM
The Shambles 10 Oct 05 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 05:39 AM
MBSLynne 10 Oct 05 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 06:06 AM
Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 07:01 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 05 - 07:05 AM
Pied Piper 10 Oct 05 - 07:10 AM
akenaton 10 Oct 05 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 07:25 AM
Strollin' Johnny 10 Oct 05 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM
ard mhacha 10 Oct 05 - 08:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 08:17 AM
Epona 10 Oct 05 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 08:35 AM
Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 08:36 AM
Epona 10 Oct 05 - 08:39 AM
Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 08:40 AM
Epona 10 Oct 05 - 08:44 AM
Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 08:50 AM
Epona 10 Oct 05 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 05 - 09:49 AM
Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 10:38 AM
Wolfgang 10 Oct 05 - 12:56 PM
GUEST 10 Oct 05 - 01:06 PM
Divis Sweeney 10 Oct 05 - 01:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Oct 05 - 02:18 PM
Epona 10 Oct 05 - 02:23 PM
The Shambles 10 Oct 05 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Tik Mik 11 Oct 05 - 04:10 AM
Divis Sweeney 11 Oct 05 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 05 - 06:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Oct 05 - 06:11 AM
The Shambles 11 Oct 05 - 06:23 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 05 - 12:43 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 05 - 01:07 PM
dianavan 15 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM
Donuel 16 Oct 05 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 05 - 10:16 AM
Divis Sweeney 16 Oct 05 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 05 - 10:25 AM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 10:30 AM
The Shambles 17 Oct 05 - 04:33 AM
The Shambles 17 Oct 05 - 04:44 AM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 07:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 05 - 04:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Oct 05 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 05 - 10:03 AM
The Shambles 18 Oct 05 - 10:11 AM
The Shambles 18 Oct 05 - 10:36 AM
Divis Sweeney 18 Oct 05 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 23 Oct 05 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,,The old soldier 24 Feb 06 - 03:52 PM
Cluin 25 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM
John O'L 25 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM
Cllr 26 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM
Donuel 27 Feb 06 - 09:03 AM

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Subject: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:42 PM

This is not a complaint, but a query.

In the last couple of months a group of posters has appeared who never post on music, only politics.
They are all of Irish Republican persuasion.
In
this
thread two of them have said that they have no interest in folk or blues music.
They only use us to push their opinions on Irish politics.
I felt as if i was sitting at a table with friends and a stranger had intruded into the conversation.

But should I? Is our forum just for folkies?

Also, why would anyone want join us just for that?

Is anyone else just here for the politics?

Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:48 PM

other rejection of folk/blues


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 06:55 PM

Whoa there, Keith. I neve said I rejected folk music, just said I never have been on the music threads. I often see threads in the music section and think about contributing, but I chose to stick with the BS section. I've got limited time most days and have to pick and chose to what I contribute and these are the threads I enjoy and learn from. I can't and won't speak for Divis. Let him voice his own opinion as I've noticed he's more than capable of doing. But am I to understand that in order to be part of the 'Cat I must post to the music threads?

E

    I am informed that this post was from Epona.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:15 PM

"But am I to understand that in order to be part of the 'Cat I must post to the music threads?"

No, that is not so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:26 PM

This is not a complaint, It is a complaint otherwise you would not have started the thread. Listen Keith you may hold a great interest in folk music, thats fine, but when you and a few others I could mention log on to see the music threads and there is nothing there that tickles you, then you get bored and start a thread about the Provisional Irish Republican Army. I have went through the threads and posts that you have either started or fed over the year. What is it with you ? You can't have it all your own way Keith. If you visit this site to get up to speed on whats happening with the music scene, great more power to you. But if you think your going to slip on down the sheet and have a wack at the Paddies out of boredom and get a few nods from your croonies, then think long and hard about not getting a reply to it. Yes I am a Republican, and damed proud of it. If you and others stop the attacks I won't be here. Do you see me addressing other issues? No you don't and what is the main topic of your postings Keith ? Irish issues that's what. As far as I can see there is three subjects you go on about, first the murder of a hood called McCartney. Right here is your answer to that. IT WAS MURDER AND IT WAS WRONG.I do not respect or defend those who did it. They are not Republicans in my eyes. As to those Republicans that were present at the time of the murder. No Republican will go to the police here in Belfast. For gods sake Keith you talk to them once and they are offering a handlers number and a phone number to gain information about everything that's going on. I do not trust them myself. Secondly you go on about Children being murdered by the IRA, Keith THIS WAS WRONG TOO. I hate to see the loss of a childs life from where ever it comes. Active service units placed bombs in England to bring their cause to the British Government. Those who are responsiable for issue of a warning, screwed up from time to time. They have said sorry, and I am saying sorry to you and everyone for that. The word is not enough I know, No unit ever went out to kill children on that I swear. Thirdly The Northern Bank Robbery, your top ten subject. No one has been charged for this, why are you saying it was the Provo's tell me. Why because a police force that hates the nationalist community said so ? Keith I read you as a wise man. Some well worded posts, a lot better grammer than mine may I add ! We are no threat on the ground to you or anyone else, the guns are gone, the bombing has stopped volunteers are living a life as normal as its allowed to get. Give us a break. We are no threat. The Irish people are no threat to you. Keith this may seem like a personal attack on you, sorry it if comes across as this it's not, but Ineed to address someone and your thread allowed it. We are allowed a voice, I visit this site to defend, not to start. If any of my previous posts were fired up, it was down to a reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:32 PM

Sorry Epona if I misunderstood your point.
Your posts are always gentle and tolerant anyway.
That still leaves Divis Sweeney ,Tiocfaid,Tir Eoghan and Tir C..?

Divis Sweeney also says   So sorry no interest at all in Blues, folk, jazz, country, gospel of diddle dee music. So am I barred ?

No Sweeney, you are not and can not be barred.
Do you join in other forums?
Stamp collecting? Bell ringing? Real Ale. How do you find the time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:34 PM

Yes I do Keith, and yet to find anti Irish threads on any of them. Maybe I should list them and you could go spread the word there ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:37 PM

Keith I do find the time to search many sites,I have to. Read some of your Anti Republican postings and you may see my need why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:42 PM

Sweeney, I did not read that as a personal attack.
Thanks for the concern.
I did start the robbery thread, but I did not accuse, I asked the question. (The government, security chief and police force of The Irish Republic did accuse).It made for a long, interesting and balanced debate.
Again on this thread, I said what my initial reaction was, asked if others felt it was reasonable, and invited discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 07:55 PM

For balance, i once posted this

Subject: RE: BS: I am not racist but I vote BNP
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford on tour - PM
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:01 AM

Josh, we all here share an interest in our music and are a forum of friends. If you are not into our music, why have you started this discussion?
if you are here to recruit for BNP then you are really not welcome.

Non UK folks, BNP is an extreemist movement, but immigration is a main stream political issue



Sweeney, I am intrigued by your comment   "I do find the time to search many sites,I have to. "

Why do you have to? Is it part of your duties as a volunteer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:17 PM

Thank-you, Peace.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:34 PM

Keith,

As I said earlier, I can't and won't speak for Divis, Tir Eoghain, Toicfaidh, Tir C. or the others on the cat that support Irish Republicanism. All I can do is try to explain my choices and hope that it helps you and others to see what I feel and maybe what the others feel as well. I have been, for as long as I can remember, a strong supporter of Irish Republicanism. I reject segregation and categorizing especially along religious lines. You'll notice when I post I often bring up the fact that not all Republicans are Catholic and not all Loyalists or Unionists are Protestant. It is in small ways such as this that I try to contribute to the threads I read because it's important for me to try to help others shed some of the biased beliefs they have. Just as important, though, is for me to learn more about those around me and to try to shed some of the biases I too have. I really think that's what the BS threads are for. I realize not everyone uses them in that manner, but I try to keep an open mind about the threads and learn from those that are knowledgable.

I also believe that the threads provide us a great opportunity for debate and I enjoy reading along and engaging in the debates because it's a great way to teach and to learn as well. I won't lie that it feels like the people of "Irish Republican persuasion" are getting a bad rap for posting about their experiences and their beliefs. But, I am proud to be a supporter of the movement that has been in the forefront for pushing for peace in the North and unity across the island. I may not be quite as vocal in my opinions as my fellow Republicans, but I support their right to say (or type!) what is in their hearts and minds, just as I support your right as well.

If we all agreed, it would be a very boring cat...:) Hope your evening went well and that your Monday is bright and sunny.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:06 AM

Peace,
I am sure many, perhaps most members post to neither section.

Do you not find it strange that some do not even look at the music section, and wonder why they come?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:17 AM

Epona, you say you come with an open mind to learn
Then you write "the movement that has been in the forefront for pushing for peace in the North and unity across the island."

You state your opinion as if it were a fact, but many here disagree and have argued against it in threads that you have been on.
I think you come to pontificate not engage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:23 AM

And one last thing, my official comment on the BS issue: I like it. Art=Music=Life=BS
Max

The point is for us to post - to respond or to ignore. Not perhaps for us to judge the posts of others or speculate on the reasons that others may choose to post.

Judge not and ye shall not be judged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 03:42 AM

With Josh and perhaps Sweeney, we have employees of political groups trawling the net for a platform to push their beliefs.
Is that not an abuse of Mudcat to cynically use our forum like that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 03:49 AM

In your post above Keith you say you did not accuse, just spread the word of two corrupt Police Forces, Garda found guilty of planting weapons near border last year. PSNI/RUC had 14 serving and ex serving members serve life for murders of Catholics. It this the words to a new folk song? Yes I do check sites for anti Irish threads Keith.And no it's not a duty.

Subject: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

We recently discussed the DUP insisting on photos of IRA decommissioning. (thread deleted?)
It now seems that while Sinn Fein were negotiating, a huge bank robbery was in advanced planning by IRA.
The police are certain of this, and hostages were taken to Republican areas.
Sinn Fein deny IRA involvement, but they did about IRA involvement in Columbia, etc.
Do any NI members doubt IRA involvement?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 04:13 AM

Good thread subject Keith A. I made this very point here about six months ago, there are DEFINITELY a few pro IRA types here, who are here for one purpose only, and that is to goad us true blue, upright English chaps!


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 04:14 AM

Is that not an abuse of Mudcat to cynically use our forum like that?

Perhaps others will judge what you choose to post to be an abuse of our forum? It is called freedom of expression and we wiil have to accept that sometimes this will be uncomfortable. Why would you wish to deny others what you consider to be the right to express yourself.

If you judge such things are an abuse on our forum - you have two choices.

To ignore them.

Or to respond in kind.

One way will be effective - the other will just bring more attention and lead to more needless imposed judgement, deletions and closed threads on our forum. To the loss of yet more precious freedoms for us to be able to express our views and see our words remain as posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 04:28 AM

I have no problem with people posting things I disagree with.
I enjoy the debate.

Imagine a group of people turning up at an open mike session, ignoring all the music, but setting up a soap box to push their politics at you in the interval.
What is the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 04:29 AM

I know this thread is primarily directed at our republican posters but I think it does pose an interesting question. Why do people come here if they have no interest in Folk and Blues music and find the topics in the BS section to be full of anti(insert your own peeve) postings?

I don't believe for one minute that the 'cat is generaly anti-Irish btw. Any more than I believe the rest of the world is. I think the cat is a microcosm of an international society and reflects, to a certain extent, the feelings in the world at large. Sure there are some anti-Irish comments. There are some anti-English ones. Some anti-American and even some anti-Mudcat! But people still keep coming back. Why is that?

I can only suppose it is because the Mudcat is a tollerent and generaly well behaved society where most people feel comfortable and unthreatened by their antagonists.

I would suggest that if anyone realy wants to do anything to stop anti-Irish (or English, or American) - ness they go into the bars and pubs where there are some REAL dealers in hate and predjudice and try to talk them round instead.

I welcome anyone to stay here and talk whatever bollocks they want to. I do it often enough. But to make a difference in the real world you need to stop preaching to the alredy tollerant.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 04:51 AM

When I discovered the Mudcat Cafe it was always described as ' an online magazine, dedicated to folk music and blues ' why do people with no interest in blues and folk music come to be here initialy, is it a case of " is this the right room for an argument ? "

eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM

I have had a look through critic Keith`s postings, it seems his main interest is in songs about the British army, Keith how can you lambast anyone who come on this Site, if you want to know anything concerning music give me a PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:14 AM

Is that the 10 minute argument, Eric?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:18 AM

It's not even the full half hour Dave, it last for feckin weeks.

eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:21 AM

Well Ted, We all know where you stand on the subject of peace !
Do you want it all your own way too ? Leave the Provisionals alone and I will go away, attack them and I will come back at you, simple as that. The Mudcat site seems to have more hits on the non music threads, maybe people just want to come here and express their viewpoint, in your case as long as it's anti Irish or Republican. Back off and I will.Otherwise debate and keep it civil.

Name Thread Name Subject Posted
flamenco ted BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW (313* d) RE: BS: Loyalists' Weapons - Off The Streets NOW 20 May 05

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If I had a gun and was also a loyalist, I would hang onto it like grim death becacuse the IRA/Sinn Fein have a long long history of lying through their teeth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:27 AM

Divis,
      You are one of the main pro IRA muck spreaders! When you and your ilk join ANY thread, I stop posting to it. Enjoy the rest of this thread, I'm gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:30 AM

Imagine a group of people turning up at an open mike session, ignoring all the music, but setting up a soap box to push their politics at you in the interval.
What is the difference?


Whatever personal value judgements that may be expressed by some of our volunteer fellow posters and whatever impression of inferiority may be given by this - the site's owner has not made the value judgment that non-music subjects are in any way second rate. The fact that this section is underneath the music section just indicates that the non-music was born out of the non-music section. And the need for some posters to constantly complain that they did not like to see non-music titles mixed-up with the music ones.   

And one last thing, my official comment on the BS issue: I like it. Art=Music=Life=BS
Max


The fact is that there is now there a special part of the forum set-aside for non-music related subjects. And you like to engage in debate there - why should any posters be surprised (or post to be judgemental) if their fellow posters in this section appear to have no interest in music?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:39 AM

The movement as you once knew it has gone. I am not here to spread as you call it MUCK. I am not starting threads here on a weekly basis to promote the IRA. I come in to answer the abuse from you and the like that attack those living in Ireand and who support the Republican cause. No need to loose the cool, friend. So when I arrive you want to leave ? why because you prefer to bad mouth Republicans without getting a reaction ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: MBSLynne
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 05:52 AM

No one forces anyone to read the political threads. I normally avoid them totally.

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 06:06 AM

Ard Mhacha
I do quite a few soldiering songs, not just British army, but my main interest is seafaring songs. Not exclusive though,    my interest is broad.
I know and respect your scholarship, especially in Irish music.
Why PM and not the forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 06:53 AM

May I make another sidenote? And excuse me for interrupting the drama:) It seems that just as Catholicism and Republicanism gets mixed up, so too does Republicanism and the IRA. I understand the history behind this, but I'm not dealing with the history of either of these groups at the moment, only the here and now. I certainly know that there are some Republicans that support the IRA, but I also know that there are many Irish Republicans who do not. So, if the goal is to attack the Provos, then please adjust your aim. If it is Irish Republicanism you dislike, then please try not to confuse the debate.

And yes, Keith, I do believe that Irish Republicanism has been in the forefront for pushing for peace in the North of Ireland and for unity across the island. I suppose I didn't realize how much of an inflammatory statement that was for you Keith. I also did not know until recently that you were a retired British soldier, so that does help me to understand a little why you have the opinions you do about the North. But I'm hoping that you and the rest of the catters that read this thread will take away one thing if nothing else from this post and that is the IRA and Irish Republicans are two separate entities. Absolutely there is some overlap now and again, but we are separate and distinct groups. All I ask is that people remember that when posting.

And, Keith, I am sorry if you feel that I am here to "pontificate not engage." While we're being honest, I feel the same about you, but the difference is this: I would never infer you shouldn't be allowed to post because of your political beliefs. I welcome your presence and the presence of all the mudcatters on whichever threads they find interest in. I agree with Dave...this is a great place, a wonderful discussion forum and for the most part, I feel safe posting and enjoy the interaction, despite attempts to make me feel otherwise. :)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:01 AM

Selective pm's Keith !

From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:32 PM

Epona, yes I am following the thread.
I was not taken by surprise, but to discuss the roots of Irish terrorism would really require a new thread, and it has come up before a couple of times!
We can't really hijack the thread to exchange our stories either. How about a PM?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:05 AM

And likewise epona people seem to confuse 'anti-'irishism' with anti IRA-ism.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:10 AM

Good god it's even rattled MG cage.

An rud a théann i bhfad,
téann sé i bhfuaire.

PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:12 AM

Good for you The Shambles!!

Your posts on this subject are the only ones that make sense.

Keith A accuses the republican posters of "pushing their point of view", well we all do that including Keith A, who pushes his views as hard as anyone.
Maybe he is a bit more insidious, but he keeps grinding that wheel.

And another thing why should we not discuss politics? In my opinion politics and folk music are bound together.
No matter how far back we go into the tradition, folk songs are about people trying to relate to one another. Politics is not always about war and taxes either. Sexual politics play a great part in the most traditional of songs.

Keith in this company you just find it hard to get a kick at the ball.
The govt is trying its damndest to stamp out free speech ....Dont let it happen here....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:25 AM

I am being misunderstood here.
I am not complaining about views being pushed because we all do it.
Please note I made the same criticism of a BNP spokesman who came here just to use us as a platform (BNP = ultra right wing British Nationalist party)
I am not ranting against people who express Republican opinions. I have enjoyed debating with them since I first joined 6 years ago.

I do not even say everyone should post in the music section.

This is the first time contributors have openly said that they are not interested in the music at all, and only come to correct mudcat people who think the wrong things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:41 AM

But this isn't really a discussion Ake, it's just people in entrenched positions on all 'sides', metaphorically shouting 'Yah-boo' and 'Fuck you' at each other, each 'side' totally convinced they're 110% right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

Not a retired soldier Sweeney, but a school teacher these last 34 years.
I was a Territorial Reservist. You will know that we were never part of the Security Forces and until Iraq only trained for conventional warfare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:08 AM

Keith not only Irish music if you care to look through my Threads, you state in one of your Threads that most of the Irish so called Republican songs were written post 1921, if that were the case the authors would have had a valid reason.
For instance song writing would have been a difficult occupation pre 1921, despite their tribulations numerous songs were written concerning the constant struggle to get our benefactors on the boat for home.

Do you wish me to enlighten you with 50 [for starters] pre 1921 songs of our struggle, or would that excercise bore you, please don`t make statments that cannot be backed up with proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:17 AM

That would make a good thread Ard.
I said I respected your scholarship especially in Irish music, not meaning that it did not extend beyond that.
Honestly, no offence meant.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Epona
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:30 AM

Divis, I'm never helping you again! When I helped you register so you wouldn't be a guest anymore, you're info got stuck in my computer and now all my posts are under your new name! AND, then I had to reregister my own name with the Cat. I hope you appreciate all this drama because I'm angry right now!!!!

Sorry folks (folkies :) ). I'm back now. And I'm not doing anymore good deeds. Haha....

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:35 AM

Post number 3 on the thread was by Epona, not Divis Sweeney.
Can any clones correct this?
    Correction entered.
    -Joe Offer, not a clone-


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:36 AM

I did not know the process and was glad of the help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Epona
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:39 AM

Well, glad I could be of assistance. Not a big fan of Guests hanging out when they can become part of the family, so glad you joined. But, I would like my posts back...Can someone with Mudcat computer skills please give me back my posts???

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:40 AM

No you claim to be the wizz kid, do it yourself !


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Epona
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:44 AM

F-you old man...I tried but I'm afraid the great powers of Mudcat will have to fix this one or you're going to be taking the heat for my past posts...:)

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:50 AM

Getting the heat for a lot less !


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Epona
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 08:54 AM

Haha! Well, I'm sure you won't be offended, but I'm much nicer on the Cat than you are, so maybe my posts will soften your reputation! :) Haha...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 09:49 AM

The thread has gone cold so I will wind up.

I started by asking 3 questions
1.
I felt as if i was sitting at a table with friends and a stranger had intruded into the conversation.
But should I? Is our forum just for folkies?


The answer seems to be no. I took a lot of flack from people who thought I was trying to stifle debate, as if anyone could be prevented from posting. It was never about the Irish debate, just that Irish contributors had admitted not coming for music. I even showed that I had made the same point to a British Nationalist. (No one rushed to defend his right to post though!)
I even had people trawling through my posts looking for dirt to discredit me with.

2.
Also, why would anyone want join us just for that?

Divis Sweeney and Epona gave their answers to this. Thanks. I still don't get it really. I can't imagine crashing a stamp collectors' site because I disagreed with stuff in their BS section.
But we are all different

3.
Is anyone else just here for the politics?

No one else admitted to having no interest in the music that this site exists for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 10:38 AM

Answers from Belfast to your questions Keith.
1.If the site was just for lovers of folk music the BS section would or should not be along with it.Also it should be stated that no political subjects be covered.
2.As I said I hold no interest in Folk music. I was told there was a section which was hitting hard at the Provisional Irish Republican Army. This interests me a great deal.
3.Yes I am here only for the politics, as stated no interest in folk music. If the threads are current news issues, non PIRA, American politics, Royal Family or British Nationalist Party, I would be the last to make a comment.

Keith we can always debate an issue. You are British or England whichever you wish to call yourself, I respect that, and respect your right to defend it.If questions are posted regarding Irish
issues. I will be glad to answer the best I can.
If there are written attacks on the PIRA Yes I will reply in defence in the manner the question was asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 12:56 PM

I'm less annoyed by politics only posters than by one topic posters who appear out of the clear air.

There are some regular posters with (Irish) Republican leanings. I respect all of them and read with a lot of interest what they write even if I don't agree. To read a post by Ard Mhacha or JimmyC for instance is nearly always a pleasure and I often learn a lot.

But the new bunch of Republicans over here are a nuisance and do not at all help their cause. They look to me like an ASU with a new job assignment.

But we have to see the good in it. They are off the streets this way and they have a sense of significance and do something against that empty feeling. Now if only the Loyalist 'brothers' could also be persuaded to lay down the arms for good and come over here to teach us the correct position to all aspects of Irish (sorry, Ulster for them) politics, we could have a jolly good time sitting at the sidelines and watching.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 01:06 PM

Well Wolfgang thats another extra cheer for Germany in the World Cup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 01:17 PM

There's no show without punch, as the saying goes. Wondered when the voice from the side line was going in for a bite on the ass. Well Wolfgang when the day comes that I require your viewpoint on Irish Republicism be assured I will ask for it.Having also read your past posts on Irish Politics I hope you don't mind if I pass on entering into dialogue with you. It's not a personal thing Wolfgang, but if you read the posts from the others you'll find they seem to know what their talking about. Yes Wolfgang we no longer crank blaster caps or load rifle clips against anyone. I myself welcome the peace. my nation has changed a lot.Funny how some of the old order never change and seem to insult and try to get people to react. Well thats were we differ Wolfgang with our respective nationalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:18 PM

I tend to pay more attention to people I've run up against in the music threads as well as the non-music ones. It seems a pity to stick rigorously in one side or the other - and I see that as applying to those who make a principle of only reading and posting to the music threads. It's a bit like insisting on hopping along on one leg instead of using them both.

The best threads are often those which move between music and BS anyway.   A musical simile or a quote from a song is often a good way of making a point; and I like the feeling that even when we disagree about other things there's a shared interest in music that brings us together, even when we disagree about that as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Epona
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:23 PM

That, McGrath, was very well said, and I can see your point.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 02:44 PM

Well Wolfgang thats another extra cheer for Germany in the World Cup.

That will only make-up for the one they won't be getting from Ian Paisley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Tik Mik
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:10 AM

Be Gob
Divi Sweeny amd my little Epony Youl be giving us paddys a bad name.

Sweeny finds the mudcat joinin thing to challenging, and herself tries to join up for him from a thousand miles away and wonders why mudcat thinks she is him

Sweeny remember, up there is for tinking, down there is for dancing.
Ar but you dont do the dancing. for kicking then yer savage bastard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 04:36 AM

Nice attempt to cover your I.D. Sadly your choice of words gave you away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 06:03 AM

Thick Guest
I see that you needed 3 tries to master the mudcat posting thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 06:11 AM

What difference does it really make if people join Mudcat for the music, or for the B.S.?

Surely the important thing is the content of posts.

Many of our Republican posters (they're not all rabid IRA killers, you know) have expressed their viewpoint in a more well mannered fashion than those who respond to them with narrow minded, and one sided comments.

McGrath is right to the extent that it is comforting to know that you are talking to someone who shares a common interest, in this case music. But it certainly isn't, and IMHO shouldn't be, a requirement for membership.

Nor does it in any way make their opinions less worthy of consideration.

As an Englishman born and bred in this country, who happens to have hundreds of years of Irish ancestry on both father's, and mother's side, I am always very interested in learning about Ireland. In order to do that, I need to hear both sides of the story.

It would greatly please me to be able to do this without having to weed out genuine comment from a storm of vituperation and hate, especially as most of it seems to come from people who should know better, and on other subjects usually do.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 06:23 AM

http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1277273


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:43 PM

As a southerner of the catholic/gaelic/nationalist tradition, but more importantly, as a human being, I am appalled at the suffering in the North.The bitterness towards the tradition (my tradition)that spawned the murderers of people is understandable. However, I think the cause would be better served by the bare statement of the facts. These are horrific enough in themselves . But to be honest, the political commentary and invective on this website will give many people of my tradition the EXCUSE to ignore the underlying fact i.e. that our tradition caused young men to go forth and commit heineous acts against our neighbours in the name of 'Ireland'. I think it important to admit that we have sinned, and I can say this for my tradition and that this at last is a pretty prevalent opinion south of the border. Perhaps the Ulster Protestant/Unionist tradition may not always have interacted with the other tradition in an exemplary manner, but that is not for me to say. We first need to look at the beam in our own eye. Despite the 'peace process', what strikes me when I watch any political debate on BBC NI is the total inability of politicians to address themselves or speak to the people on the other side. What has Adams had to say lately to the unionist people, or what has Paisley (ever) had to say to mine? At the end of the day, we (i.e. the two traditions) have to find a way to live with each other, and this means speaking to (not preaching at) one another. Let's try to speak to each other and find the common ground of which there is a lot. It's people of my tradition, NOT the unionist tradition who need to hear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:07 PM

Abu Mor !


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM

I'm interested in Music but don't have much to contribute to the music section because I'm not a musician.

I think that folk music has a tradition of being political in nature - not always but quite often. It seems to me that the BS section should be to stimulate song writing. When debate occurs its healthy and gives the song writer a better perspective.

Why would anyone want to hear only one side? Why would anyone want to preach to the converted? Folk music, afterall, is not an exclusive domain. Folk music is for and about folks. That means all folks. Are you saying the audience should not be involved?

I guess some people just want to be a musician's musician.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:14 AM

I started singing union songs at age 4: You can't scare me I'm stickin to the union, Joe Hill, Mr. Block, You gotta go down etc.

In later years I discovered I couldn't play and sing at the same time.
Something to do with dyslexia or the way I'm wired. Its a snap to illustrate issues but I admire those who can stand and deliver musical words more than any picture I might make.

I'm trying to get out of the house to the getaway 90 minutes from here but the family won't be in gear for hours. Maybe I can sneak out and drive solo...:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:16 AM

Dianavan,
Do you look at the music section?
I expect you do since you are interested in the music.
I do too, but like you am not as knowledgeable as the big music contributors.
Do you not find it strange that some people log on to our site without any interest in our music at all?
That is all I was remarking on.
Not complaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:21 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: dianavan - PM
Are you saying the audience should not be involved?

Dear Dianavan that is exactly what he is saying.

Keith, Not complaining! A term used when the back up does not arrive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:25 AM

No Sweeney.
It was the term I used in the first sentence of the first post of this whole thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:30 AM

There are them wot likes to talk about politics; them wot likes to talk about music; them wot likes to talk about the weather, etc.

The music threads are meant for music. The others seem to be somewhat open, and they change over time. Some threads lead to long-time hatreds between individuals. Some never talk with each other again, or if they do, they do with a different tone of voice. Wooden bridges are easy to burn.

Hope y'all have a good day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:33 AM

Cut n pasters creepin' back in


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:44 AM

The following exchange from
Thread proliferation control is interesting.......

Subject: RE: Thread Proliferation Control
From: RichM - PM
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:15 AM

Good idea!
Carry it further though:
Forbid the messy notion of allowing uncontrolled new threads-- Every morning, or once a week,or whenever-- publish a pre-approved list of acceptable new topics.

So that we (as member or guest) can only post to an existing OR pre-approved thread. And NO more threads containing the word Ir** !


Rich McCarthy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think I want to do that, Rich. One of the beauties of this place is its spontaneity, so I want to be careful not to exercise too much control
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 07:44 PM

I truely agree with your perspective Divis Sweeney. However u must realise that post partition, the nationalist people of the North where left completely alienated and indeed to a large extent neglected by the rest of our countrymen, left instead to be completely shit upon by our unionist friends in every sense possible ie no voting rights, no job opportunities etc etc. What we were living in, in effect, was an apharteid state. Taking this into consideration I am glad to say that there will never be a return to those days of old and that the winds of change are now truely upon us. Having said that however it is extremely difficult for nationalists to forgive and forget those attrocities carried out by unionism/loyalism but that is something that will come in time. In addition I would also like to say that I find it a bit rich sometimes when people take time to condemn and demonise the I.R.A. when their guns are silent and put beyond use, not to mention the fact that liberation for the the 26 counties came about because of the actions of the I.R.A. ie Guerilla war fare, which was only 8 decades ago. Indeed the main political parties in the south trace their routes back to Collins and De Valera. In essence the foundations of the 26 county state is built upon the actions of the so called criminals (I.R.A.). Ironically if these criminals had not done the like of Mc Dowell and Bertie would be unemployed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 04:21 AM

Would you believe it!
I start a thread about people only coming to bang on about politics, and they hijack the thread to bang on about politics!


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 09:31 AM

And for most of the thread you were right in there with them Keith.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 10:03 AM

Fair enough.
But it was my thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 10:11 AM

Oh no it isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 10:36 AM

We've always operated under the principle that threads are a product of the community, not of the thread originator.

We have allowed thread originators to control the content of threads only in certain designated PermaThreads.

Otherwise, thread originators generally have no control over what people may or may not say in subsequent messages.

Each individual has more-or-less complete control over the contents of his or her individual message, but not over the entire thread.

-Joe Offer-


So make no mistake - that is what "WE" now allow. Control over the entire thread now lies where it belongs with an unknown number of anonymous volunteer fellow posters - and you now do only what they will "allow" you to do. Got it?

The post can be read in full on the following...
In the UK


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 10:49 AM

Fair enough ! That was close to an admission Keith, why do you not say things like that to me ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 23 Oct 05 - 07:37 PM

Well, well!
Would you believe it?

Keith wishes to discriminate on the grounds of limited musical interests, or apparent ability.
(... bit like reverse Maoism, if you ask me....)

This is not the first time, however when he has tried to start this smear campaign.

"My Thread" indeed!
Did you ever hear the like?

Good man Shambles!
... you can always count on our Rog...

Admit it Keith...
You know more about politics than music!
You're more interested in it, as well...

Otherwise you wouldn't have started this daft thread!

Hei Wolfgang!
Thanks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: GUEST,,The old soldier
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:52 PM

Valid thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM

But take nothing seriously in the BS section. Remember what BS stands for.




What does it stand for, anyway?




P.S. That was a rhetorical question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: John O'L
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM

B.S. = Big Silence. It's how there universe got started. Contrary to popular belief both above and below the line (The B.S. Tolerance Threshold or Event Horizon) there was never any Big Bang.


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Cllr
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM

Theres no real politics on mudcat just a lot of ego's shouting about whatever they read in the sun last week. Now In my opinion ... (cont page 94)


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Subject: RE: BS: Politics only posters on Cat
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 09:03 AM

I don't shout, I illustrate.


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