Projector info

Subject: Projector info
From: chordstrangler
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 03:56 PM

Hi all... I wounder if any 'Catter out there can help me with a strange request. I have been asked to write a song to accompany a short film and it involves an old guy who was a cinema projectionist in the forties and fifties. I have a fair idea of how the song should go but I'm badly in need of some technical knowledge that I can incorporate into the lyrics to give the impression that I know what I'm talking about.
   
   Does anybody out there know anything about the type of cinema projectors that were used during this period. What were the makes used? How many frames per second ? That sort of thing.   I would be grateful for any help I can get and would welcome any suggestions of sites to visit to find what I'm looking for.

    I know full well that all knowledge is to be found here and I look forward to seeing what this strange query might through up. Thanks in advance..... M

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 03:59 PM

Aren't all movies shown at 24 frames per second?

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 08:22 PM

Depending on the projector capabilities, they can be shown at a range of speeds - faster and slower than 24 fps. Many of the older silent movies were often cranked at a slower speed, even down to 18 fps.

For example I once watched the Cabinet of Dr Calgari at the 'standard' speed, then we set it slower, and all the 'jerkiness' disappeared, and the actions seemed at entirely normal speed (it was a 16mm print).

Most movies shown on TV are shown at a speed more compatible with the TV framing rate just by running the film faster. There used to be a complicated optical gadget for transforming the gate rate by screening the film at its correct speed onto a glass plate that was then 'filmed' by either another camera, or a TV camera. Was considered a hideously financially process though, so apparently fell into disuse.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 10:11 PM

Watch/View/Inculcate... the Italian film/dvd

font color-red>

Cinema Paradiso

Projection at its best.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 10:22 PM

Troup of Fools - I am VERY slowly beginning to like you better.

It is a form of catachism, inigitation, fool's paridice subserviant servent....when we send both send penitant pilgrams into the Berto of the Echo.

Sincerely,
Garogyle

And heaven (Max/Joe) disolve us when the folly is known.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 11:31 PM

35mm projectors - the standard projectors in commercial movie houses in the 40's and 50's - ran at 24 frames per second. And, at that speed, it would have been 90 feet a minute.

The projection booths contained two projectors. The film came on 15 to 20 minute reels and the projectionist had to do "change overs" from one projector to the next. They watched for "cue marks" on the screen to tell them when to do this.   The sound tracks were mostly optical. The projectors were made up of a "picture head" and a "sound head".   

The projectionist used a "rewind bench" to get each reel back to the start for the next show.   Films are said to be "heads" out, or "tails" out in orientation. (If they're tails out, they need to be rewound to the head).

The projectors had a "focus" knob and a "reframing" knob in case the film was "misframed". Behind the lens was a "mask" that had to be changed depending on the format of the film - flat or cinemascope ("scope").

At that time the projector lamps were probably not lamps at all, but carbon arcs which used "rods," like in a welding machine, that were struck together briefly and then pulled apart so that an arc of electricity flowed between them, making a very bright light.

Hope some of this helps.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 11:33 PM

I should say that the above terms are American. Don't know what the British or European terms are.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 11:42 PM

Les B is "almost correct."

re:

They watched for "cue marks"

Unfortunatly, in even the most recent future films (i.e.) the "cue marks" are annoyingly apparent in the upper right of the screen five seconds before "the cut."

Among a multitude of persuasions - they are still another reason to view nothing longer than 20 minute shorts.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 11:51 PM

Gargoyle - I'm not sure where you've been watching feature films.

In the last 25 years most theaters have been using platter systems which build the film all on one huge reel(platter), so there is no need for "cue marks" any more because there are no change overs.

Most theaters were able to sell their second projector when this innovation came in.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 05 - 11:53 PM

ChordStrangler-

It is obvious you are a wet-behind-the-ear novice - attempting to extend yourself into a professional field.

This is NOT

the forum that will yeild you the answers you require.

Formats are diverse...(sometimes even like train tracks) from country to country.

Phillipines (pre 1940 or post?)
Asian (not Phillipines)
India (Brit or Hindu)
Soviet ( dates, location)

If you want answers - look elsewhere (there ARE answers and some wonder information at your fingertips) these poor, pathetic MudCat folks are still struggling with WAV to MP3 - they have not answers.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 12:05 AM

Gargoyle is correct about the "cue marks" being five seconds before the cut.

There were actually two sets of circular cue marks - one set etched in the corners of four consecutive frames of the film with a little pin at a standard measured distance before the cut, and the second set etched about six inches before the cut.

When you saw the end of a reel approaching you struck up the carbon arc on the projector you were changing to and then kept watch for the first set of cue marks. When you saw the first cue marks you quickly started the motor on the projector you were changing to, so it could get up to speed, and then, when you saw the second set of cue marks, nearly on top of the cut, you flipped a knob which mechanically lowered a metal shutter (or dowser) from the light path on the outgoing reel and lifted a shutter up on the incoming reel.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: Little Robyn
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 12:08 AM

Some projector names from about then include Bell and Howell and Eumig, at least in 16mm and 8mm film.
In TV studios, our two Bell and Howells and the slide drum were on a multiplex chain and in order to get from one reel to another, the operator had to do a 'douse and show'.
Presumably the picture theatres had a similar changeover system??
When old movies are shown on telly, you still see the cue dots go through - at 8 seconds before, when the other projector would be started, and then at change over time when you put the lights out on projector 1 and lit up projector 2, and you hoped no-one saw any gaps in between! It was quite nerve wracking!
But that was back in the days of steam radio!
Robyn ex-NZBC WNTV1 Telecine Operator.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 12:11 AM

Yes - in motion-picture-palaces of the past three years - the MARKS are still VERY apparent.

In most years .... I force myself to see two films (an attempt to ward-off anarchonism)....in the "best of years" films might extend to four or five....most I've seen, even after careful selection...are worthy of a back ally in Hull.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I will start a tread for a musical film I seek.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: chordstrangler
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 02:50 PM

Thanks so much to all of you. This is exactly the sort of information I was looking for.
   Gargoyle, you are exactly right when you describe me as a "wet-behind-the-ears-novice". That is why I asked for advice. I don't need much technical stuff to put the finishing marks on the song, the chorus of which will probably go something like....

I HELPED THEM ESCAPE FROM THEIR WORLD FOR A MOMENT
I MADE THEM FORGET WHO THEY WERE
IN 24 FAIRYTALE FRAMES EVERY SECOND
WITH GARBO AND HEIDI LEMARR

       Thanks all.....M

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 03:01 PM

That's Hedy Lamarr.

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 03:10 PM

chordstrangler - good verse, and Jeffp is right - it's Hedy Lamarr.

I always wanted to make up one of those bumper stickers - "Projectionists do it 24 times a second for 90 minutes !"

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:26 AM

Oh no - Not the Hedy Lamarr jokes - shades of 'Blazing Saddles'!!!

Subject: RE: Projector info
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:32 AM

In modern multiple cinema complexes, they have a Heath Robinsonian gadget hooked up, whereby several cinemas showing the one film can have an endless loop that stretches between the projectors in each cinema. In this case, once one cinema starts, they are all on the one (staggered) showing schedule. God help them if the film snaps...