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BS: Obit: The Republican Party

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Subject: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 08:07 PM

Well, well, well...

Not that I have any great deal of fondness fir the rival fraternity on campus, i.e. the Democartic Party but it looks as if the Republican Party is comin' apart at the seams??? Too namy screw ups... Too much corruption... Too many scandals to handle... Tooo many lies... Too much staelin' from the workin' man's hard earned tax dollars...

Everywhere you look, the Repubs are stinkin' up the joint... I 'like in Repub country these days and even the folks 'round here are pissed off with the Repubs...

Can they fix it? Probably not... Yeah, because of the heavy redistrictin' the Repubs have done over the last 5 years, they will most likely hold their majorities in '06 but not at todays levels...

Heck, the RNC can't even get folks who want to run in a lot of the '06 contests...

So, from one who predicted that invadin' Iraq would turn into a urban warfare quagmire, I'm going on record of predictin' that evn John "The Savior" McCain won't be able to muster up enough to keep the Repubs from corkscrewin' themselves into the ground...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 08:14 PM

As Mark Twain said, "I didn't get an invitation to the funeral, but I did write a letter of approval".


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Janie
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 08:16 PM

Maybe in our dreams, Bobert....but it is a bit premature to start dancing on any graves.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 08:18 PM

Thank God! I thought they'd never leave. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 09:51 PM

don't write the obit yet....there are too many people who'd vote for Beelezebub if he said he was against gun control, abortion and higher taxes. There will be a NEW Republican nominee in 3 years- he may GET votes by just disassociating himself from this administration.

There's gonna be a LOT of new issues in 3 years..FEMA and hurricanes and Iraq may be gone by then.....the Democrats have to be for something as well as against Republican stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 09:59 PM

I always liked Samuel Clemens' work and thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 09:59 PM

BillD is correct--too many people have blinders on AND incredibly short-term memories, both of which are really unfortunate. Because they seem to remember to vote even though they haven't thought out the issues or taken stock of recent history.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:01 PM

By the next Presidential election, the White House will have put enough spin on the FEMA screwup to make it look as though the Republican Party saved the day. SRS nailed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:08 PM

Not to worry, Bill....

The Dems now have Howard Dean as Chairman of the DNC... Howard will ghet the job done in creatin' an agenda...

No need dfor ther Dems to "telegraph" it to the Repubs... The Dem pollsters ain't in no hurry here...

Why lay out a program right in the middle of Repub misery??? The more miseery the better...

Yeah, Howard Dean is like a fresh race horse with a plate full of Dem initiatives just waitin' fir the right time... Which ain't now...

Yeah, fir the Dems to come out with a progrma right now would be politically stupid... Let the repubs take a few more hits... Don't give the Repubs anything to fire back at... In essence, don't create any diversionary targets...

What you are seein' is the political savy of Howard Dean... He's like a sniper... He can pull the trigger at will... The Repubs know it but can't do anything about it since they are in turmoil themselves...

Don't worry none about the rival fraternity... They know what is going down and are just standin' back watchin the implosion...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:28 PM

The Dems now have Howard Dean as Chairman of the DNC... Howard will get the job done in creatin' an agenda...

Bobert, Bobert, what are you smoking these days? You predict the demise of the elephant, but ignore the fact that the ass has been floating belly-up and stinking in the pool since Al Gore finally disemboweled it five years ago??

The only hope is for unions, civil liberties defenders and just plain folks to make a mass exodus from the smelly abattoir of established American politics and form a new party, impervious to lobbyists and dedicated to the good of the common man.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:30 PM

That's Bobert's line from a year back--and two years back and . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:35 PM

YOU only WISH!

While the spawning percentage is far, far, far, greater for Demos....

Republican prodgeny produce greater numbers at the polls, and an improved cognition of the issues.

As usual, intellect wins over brawny-ignorance and the Catholic Church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:39 PM

As I was saying . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 05 - 10:54 PM

NO, as much as I don't like the Dems, Howard Dean is like a jockey on a race horse that has all the power in the world to pulkl out a victory... He knows it and the Repubs know it...

The Repubs ain't to be feared no more, folks... Its the Dems to be feared...

The Repubs is toast...

Yeah, if every danged parrot wants so say "The dems have no plan" then fine...

You think that Howard Dean don't know this????

What, is he brain dead???

Every danged person in the country cvan step to the plate and say that the "dems don't have no plans but guess what???

The Repubs is goin' downhill without the Dem havin' a plan so why inroduce whatever they have now???

That's my point...

There will be a right time fir the rival fraternity to step forward... Now, in the midst of Repub blood lettin', is not it...

That's the way I see it....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: yrlancslad
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:31 AM

Dream on Bobert, thanks to DeLays efforts in Texas the Repubs have the legislature tied up for the forseeable future and will certainly tighten their hold meanwhile. They also know how to steal the Presidency now too, after all theyve done it twice in succession now and the American people have not given a murmur-so much for the right to bear arms! Of course its the people who support Bush who have 'em while the Dems whine to one another and make up songs and invite me to "have a nice day!Arrgh Come back weathermen and the SLA all is forgiven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:06 AM

Where's the Catholic Church come in on all this, O Nameless One? Seems to me, liberal Catholics still vote Democratic, and conservative Catholics still vote Republican.
-Joe Offer, a Catholic who has never voted Republican-
(I think Republicans are immoral, but other Catholics think that of Democrats)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 04:55 AM

Michael is right , put your faith in the "democratic" system to effect change and in another ten years your masters will have wrung the spirit out of America.

On the other hand, the sense of "nationhood allied to personal freedom" that they have so cynically used to empower themselves can be the best weapon against them.

In the UK the people themselves have become so cynical that I doubt they could ever commit to the sacrifices required.
Looking from afar, it seems to me that the American people have in general retained an optimism lost in the UK.
A belief that good can still triumph over evil, despite much evidence to the contrary.

In an earlier discussion with M Ted, I admitted that I see America as our last hope to unseat the evil forces that will destroy everything of real value.

Guest was obviously writing tounge in cheek about applications for a leader, but a leader is what America needs; and not one who is tarnished by contact with the Party system.....Any Ideas?...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:13 AM

Another party? Teddy Roosevelt tried that and lost. If he couldn't do it, I doubt anyone can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:14 AM

That's funny....


Dean will lead the democrats to victory?


He couldn't even lead himself to victory in the primaries against a no personality block of wood Kerry.

The implosion will happen when Dean's head explodes in rage on national TV whenever he realizes that the Dems days are long over and have been since a few years back.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:57 AM

Don't quit your day job to become a political analyst, Hubby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 11:06 AM

None of us will ever live to see the day that a legitimate third party will make any significant inroads. I doubt my future great-great grandchildren will live to see it.

We are basically stuck with a disorganized Democratic Party and a Republican Party that is falling all over themselves trying to play spin doctor.   Face it, the future ain't pretty!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 11:17 AM

Dean's head-explosion was a masterful piece of political slander and manipulation, acheived by filtering out the background context noise levels, so it sounded like he was screaming mad, instead of just screaming. From this single deft piece of falsification the right-enders managed to take out their most dangerous opponent, in their usual ruthless manner, by lying about him. But make no mistake about his competency as a manager. The State of Vermont understood that and elected him on his record.

Therefore, I suggest there is something to Bobert's analysis -- at least as a promising possibility. Compared to the current tyrannical crony-clan in place, almost anything would be an improvement; I would like to see a wide-range cleanup of falsehoods told, crimes and evasions committed, and distortions fobbed on the public out of self-serving convenience on the part of Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfield and a few others. They are palpably gangsteroid and about as "American" as a Sicilian bullyboy gang.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 11:28 AM

The Republican Party -- that of Lincoln -- died years and years ago.

Even the Republican Party of Goldwater died years ago.

But then, so did the Democratic Party of FDR and Truman and, yes, even Kennedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:52 PM

As fir Dean loosin' in the primaries, heck, it was a forgone conclusion seein' as the Repub' were so scared of him that they wwere sayin' stu7ff like, "Oh, we hope it's Dean that we have to against.." Think about it...If they really wantesd to go aginst Dean, they would have kept queit...

Then there were the esablishment Dems *and* the media sayin' stuff like, "Well, Howard isn't electable!!!"

Think about it... Dean had to be4at the Repub. PR machine, the3 Dem PR machine and the friggin' press and guess what, he almost pulled it off...

TO WIT: Who is now the Chariman of the DNC???

I rest my case...

And fir the record, the biggest screamer in politics that I can remeber is the screamer poster boy hiself, George W. "The Screamer" Bush... He makes Dean l;ook like a daef-mute, gol dangit...

"The Scream" was the final nail the media pouded into the Dean campaign coffin...

And, lets not loose sight of the fact that it was the media that was in hot pursuit to get the Bush administartion to drop the last ownership regs at the FCC...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:58 PM

The Democrats need to find a Southerner perceived as religious--and to have Mudcatters and like-minded folk not run in the other direction when they do.

John Edwards?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:44 PM

Barring a truly progressive third party that actually stands a chance (not bloody likely!), at this point, John Edwards looks pretty good to me.

We'll see how things develop.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:55 PM

"The democrats need to find a Southerner perceived as religious"

Yep! And the repubs really need to learn to distinguish between a man who BELIEVES in God, and a nutjob who thinks he IS God.

I won't be holding my breath as long as the tumbleweed and his pals are saying "Ask not what I can do for God, Ask rather how can I twist God's message to my own benefit?"

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff alias wdyat12
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 08:27 PM

Bush: 26% approval rating for the war in Irak.

"We gotta get out this place!"

wdyat12

"If that's the the last thing we ever do!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:27 PM

kendall -- Teddy Roosevelt tried it when?

This is the 21st century. Surely circumstances have changed a bit.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 09:40 PM

Yeah, I realize that redistrictin' by the Repubs has made Dean's job a lot harder but guess what??? There are Repubs now refusin' to run... Yeah, in better times, they would be shoe-in's but in this climate alot of folks don't want to waste the money and the possibility of being embarassment...

No, the Dems won't take it all back in '06 but the handwritin' is on the walls...

Think about this, Hubby: you know have a lame duck president who just tonight has been caught yet again tryin' to pull one over on the American people with his so-called unrehearsed talk with the troops in Iraq... Problem is that the networks fot the feed that showed the troops being coached prior to the so-called unrehersed talk...

Face it, the Repubs are strangled with a white-elephant, lame-duck liein' sack of carp as their leader and this ain't gonna keep them in office.

The American people might have been born at night, but other than the redneck Southerners, not last night... And I'm hearin' more and more redneck Southerners who are comin' 'round....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:12 AM

I said last year that the Republicans had a lame-duck President. In politics as it is played you reward your friends and punish your enemies. You use your "political capital." But Bush had already expended the political capital he had BEFORE the election in 2004; like the country, he had run into debt. Being a lame duck, he had and has nothing to reward or punish with after 2008, that's just about two years off right now.

Members of his own party are starting to see this. The Democrats started to see it a couple months ago but are, I think, biding their time, sniping when appropriate and, when possible, embarassing the Republicans (such as over the Harriet Miers nomination).

The Democrats have been unfocused, not disorganized, and have felt that they need to fight every battle instead of choosing which to fight and which to laugh off.

Who would I like to see run in 2008?

John McCain v. Bob Kerrey.

Both are combat veterans. McCain is smart, and still smarting under the Republican charges in 2000 that his experience as a POW damaged his mind. KerrEy, the former Senator from Nebraska, was on the 9/11 Commission -- and as for his combat record, well, walking with a prosethetic leg would be a constant reminder of the maimed in Iraq and, frankly his Medal of Honor probably wouldn't hurt either. But most importantly, I think that they're both moderates (at least in today's climate), smart, and able to actually think for themselves.

It helps that I think that they both actually believe that they'd be working for the good of country....


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:11 AM

I cannot see the Republicans winning the next election (Presidential). BUT, I think when the Democrat wins he/she'll have lots of proving to do. Truthfully, what real difference is there between the parties? Truthfully?

Neither has presented an economic platform that is beneficial to poor people. Neither has a well-considered education plan. Neither is talking about getting troops the hell outta Iraq. Neither is presenting a tax platform that will help people who need the help as opposed to helping companies and others who DON'T need the help. (OK, maybe Halliburton will need a bit of cash to tide them over, but that aside . . . .) What differences are there? Both parties were implicit in the Patriot Act (what a friggin' name) and neither shone during the NO disaster. So, what price glory?

How far are Americans willing to go in terms of selling off the country the signers of the Dec of Ind envisioned? The writers of the Constitution envisioned? How far? And again, what price glory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:56 PM

Joe Offer: "Immoral?" "Immoral?" All Republicans? Fie fie on you, Joe. You know better than that!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:11 PM

"Teddy Roosevelt tried it when?

This is the 21st century. Surely circumstances have changed a bit."

Not as much as you would think when it comes to politics.   Since TR there have been many attempts- most recently from Ralph Nader and a bit further back from Ross Perot and John Anderson.   It appears taht successful third parties tend to center on a specific issue and can make enormous change by influencing votes, but they have not been able to make a stand as a serious contendor to the Democrats and Republicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:14 PM

Sorry, Bobert, old friend. I think Howard Dean is a death wish. I say that having been a Democrat all of my life. My real hope is that the Democratic party won't just sit around, hoping that they'll win the next election on the Anyone But A Republican line. The Democratic party of the 40's-60's has pretty much been compromised into nearly complete inaction. There certainly is a loud sucking noise going on these days as a power vacuum is being created. I just wish that I was more optomistic that the Democratic party would find the guts to stand FOR something again.

Jerry (A Disgruntled Democrat)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: tarheel
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:24 PM

well,from a true conservative,robert....i must say,i think you are right...!
tar...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:10 AM

Lordy, Lordy, pig's is a-flyin' an' ol' Mr. Scratch has done come up cuz it's too cold down there!

Tarheel an' Bobert agree on sumthin'!

Repent, Brethren, cuz the endtimes have done come!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:54 PM

Jerry: IMO the Democratic Party has been kidnapped by the Howard what's-his'name crowd...Dean. That would include Bobert of course, and it is a recipe for disaster for the party.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 03:11 PM

You know, reading what's been happening on this thread is enlightening, because when people forget which party they belong to and start instead to worry about the 'state' of their country and its democracy, the tone of the argument changes to one of folks with a common problem. THAT is one good starting place to reform what Twain referred to as a "benevolent old asylum for the helpless". I think--speaking as one who respects the American people with the fervidity he employs to disrespect the government elected by that people--that if enough of you tend to the task of cleaning the crap out of Washington, you may yet have a country of which to be proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:12 PM

That was an excellent post Bruce.
Inspiring and full of wisdom. Your kids have a teacher to be proud of

Thats why I like this place, there are a few folks here with real feelings.   Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:52 PM

Hey, Peace:

I'm with you. While I have mostly voted Democrat in my lifetime, I see less and less of a real difference between the two parties. Maybe I was delusional, but in the 40's-60's, I felt that the Democratic had some heart and vision. I don't see much of that, anymore. I'm not sure how all of this has happened. Perhaps it's tv coverage and polls that tell politicians what to say they believe in order to be re-elected. Seems like they all have their fingers in the pie, though. I'm sick of voting for the candidate who I think will do the least damage. I find the parties to be less and less distinctive... kinda like chosing up sides in a playground pick-up softball game.

Having just come back from 16 days in Europe, I have a fresh perspective on how America looks from a distance. While everyone seems to detest Bush, they wonder how Americans could be so stupid to vote him in to office for a second time, and how he gets away with what he does. If he is slowly becoming marginalized, it's because he is starting to have the stench of a loser. That may leave the Republicans scrambling to distance themselves from him. Whether someone steps forward with vision and conviction within the Democratic party remains to be seen. We can always hope.

In the meantime, it seems like politics has devolved into some kinda weird parlor game with everyone blaming everyone else, without offering much of anything positive.

This world is not my own, I'm just passing through...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 12:13 AM

Here I am filled with optimism today. I think that the people of the United States (if they stand together) have more power than the Republicans or the Democrats. I think that if you forget all of your political labels and realize that you all want the same thing for your families, all of the little issues will melt away.

It is time for a new party in the U.S. Start now. Let it grow. Call yourselves the People's Unity Party or something. The best thing that can happen is for all of you to realize that the govt. will rob you of your power, by keeping you at each other's throats. They only have the power because you give it to them.

You must be courageous. Don't listen to fear mongering. Nobody hates you - but they despise your government. Only you can change that. Most of you are now of the generation that has all the power and control. Use it or lose it.

...and don't forget it might involve some sacrifice.

You have to be willing to stand up and speak out. When you do, others will join you.

You might even lose but... what you gain is self respect and the knowlege that you tried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 01:29 AM

... following on from Dianavan's thoughts...

Why not pick one state for this new party to try out in? Small, but central to larger populations. What about Maine or Vermont? You'd get lots of volunteers from other NE states - hell, you'll get a bunch of canadians coming down to help!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 02:11 AM

Right, Dianavan, we are on the verge of Revolution here in the United States. Bobert is leading the charge! I am assuming that your post is in jest, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:00 AM

All I seem to hear these days is the misuse of the word liberal.

To me a true Liberal would be fair to all, oppress none. He would act in a spirit of generosity, and tolerance, allowing others to hold their own ideals, while trying to ensure that EVERY individual had the opportunity to enjoy the freedoms and privileges guaranteed by your constitution.

There are many such among both republicans and democrats, and it seems to me that they should be capable of mounting an attack on the corporate pawns that are currently in charge of US politics. A revolution does not need to be accomplished with bloody violence.

Maybe then the word liberal would cease to be a derogatory epithet.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:00 AM

Hey, Doug:

Webster's dictionary definition of "liberal" is "Open minded; generous; catholic; (small "c")unbiased; favoring democratic (small "s"), progressive ideals and freedom of religion." Politicians are terrified of that word... the legacy of Newt Gingrich and company. Those qualities are the ones that made this country great, and yet they are now rarely uttered for fear of someone slapping a capital "L" on the front. Now, Liberal means soft-headed, unrealistically idealistic, profligate spending. loose moraled, pointy headed people who want to waste all your money on lazy, dishonest, poor people.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 09:46 AM

Right, Jerry. And "conservative" means

1. Favoring traditional views and values...2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit. 3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate... 7. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

In many ways we are all conservatives, if in no other way that conserving traditional music and song.

There is nothing wrong with taking a cautious approach to change. Many times it's a good idea, in fact. I wish the current government in the US actually WAS conservative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 01:45 PM

You're right, Rap: Conservative has been usurped to mean tight-fisted, mean spirited, "I got mine, to Hell With You," no change is a good change attitude toward life. That's no more what "conservative" means than the current use of Liberal means in relation to any dictionary definition. I've always been fiscally conservative, and I think of conservative as being judicious in judgement and not rushing hastily into activities. I am pretty "conservative" in some areas of religion, and wildly "liberal" in others. All of these words have been seriously compromised to make simplistic slogans that obfuscate complex issues and set people against each other.

And where are all them "compassionate Conservatives?"

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:09 PM

Right here, Jerry, right here! :>)
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:48 PM

No, Doug, I'm not kidding.

I think that most U.S. citizens have alot more similarities than differences.

Seems that the differences are siezed upon by both Republicans and Democrats as a means for them to gain political control. By focussing on them, we lose sight of what is important to us.

It is time for a revolution. It doesn't have to be bloody. It can start with a party of people who focus on their similarities.

1. We love our families

2. We all need adequate food, shelter and clothing.

3. Our economy is important and relies on skilled workers.

4. We cherish freedom of speech and freedom of religion and...

Take it from there...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM

"Yheeee Haaaww, yheeee haaawww."---Howard Dean


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:56 PM

Political cartoonists are praying that Howard Dean runs.

jimmyt is another Compassionate Conservative. And I know many others who are deeply committed to helping the poor and minorities... some who have done far more for the poor than any liberals I know.

It all boils down to people.

Not labels.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:58 PM

True to that, Jerry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:59 PM

I've found, in thirty-plus years of talking with folks in public libraries, that it doesn't seem to matter how rich or poor, educated or not, you are -- folks was things better for their children, a decent (not necessarily ostentatious or wealthy) way of life, decent health, a decent job at a decent wage, decent housing, and decent old age care and pensions. Note the consistent pattern of "decent." And having things better for the kids has ALWAYS been part of humanity's dream, hasn't it?

Somewhere along the line, the US has forgotten things like "general wealthy" and "common defense" and "for ourselves and our posterity." We've forgotten things like "the greatest good for the greatest number" and the true meaning of what it means to be part of a community. And that while that community gives to you, you have to give back to it.

Too much war, too much Watergate, too much corruption stemming from too much greed.

I don't object to someone making a lot of money when it is done by their brains and work, and I applaud when someone like Bill Gates gives back to the world community some of what he's made. I strenuously object when the money is stolen (let's call it what it is -- embezzlement is stealing), or even in some cases inherited, or obtained by slavery (of many sorts), or in any way sucked away by the greedy. I think that there's gotta be a special place in Hell waiting for some of those alive today (and GWB isn't necessarily among them, either).


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:02 PM

Hey, Bobert:

We seem to have usurped your thread. But, this IS mudcat. When you leave a thread un-tended for any period of time, you never know what's going to happen to it. An unwatched pot boils.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: OtherDave
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:39 PM

I live near Washington DC, so I can watch your tax dollars and mine at work. If you look at the last several congressional elections, you'll see that incumbents who chose to run were re-elected at higher rates of return than were formerly enjoyed by members of the Supreme Soviet.

Example: in the 2004 election, 401 House members sought re-election. 396 made it. That's 98.75%. Makes you proud to be an American.

In nearly every state except the small, single-member ones, boundaries for congressional districts are controlled by the legislature. The Texas gerrymandering that Tom DeLay orchestrated is an extreme example, but not extreme by all that much. My state of Maryland, a Democratic stronghold, gerrymandered my own district to finally eject Republican Connie Morella (who was no friend of Newt).

As prognostications for next year's elections come in, listen unless the GOP goes on to a postdoctoral level of hubris and self-immolation. You'll hear that there are only 40 or so "districts in play" -- out of 436 House seats.

This is representative democracy?

I have no hope for a third party doing much more than throwing a monkey wrench into things (cf. George Wallace or Ross Perot), but each of us might consider how to move the political establishments in our own state to put redistricting into non-partisan hands. It ain't easy (you can read how Iowa has struggled with this, but they've struggled fairly successfully), but it's well worth doing if it makes party apparatchiks on either side stop taking 80% of the vote for granted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: OtherDave
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 10:40 PM

435 seats, but I was in mid-rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 12:41 AM

Dianavan: I don't know a Republican or a Democrat who does not want what you listed in your post calling for a revolution.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 03:25 AM

Doug - I mean a revolution in the way we think about each other. We are not the enemy. Its when we take sides and try to demonize each other that we lose our power. As has been posted above, the name of the game is for politicians to keep us divided so that they can keep themselves in power.

None of the present politicians represent you or me. We are just a means to an end for them. Government has to change and start representing us.

A non-partisan redistricting at the State level sounds like a pretty good start. Any re-structuring has to be simple enough for everyone to understand. It takes alot of education.

We tried to do something like that at the city level, here in Vancouver but the referendum failed because it was so complicated that nobody could understand it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 10:54 AM

"Our leaders are the best of men
So, we elect them again and again,
That's what I learned in school today,
That's what I learned in school."

Thank you Tom Paxton


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:01 PM

Where U B, Bobert?

U O K?

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:04 PM

He's probably catching up on his sleep...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: saulgoldie
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:09 PM

I am not sure of the obit of the Repub party, although I would not mourn much. (Of course, there always needs to be an effective counterpoint to ANY power to keep it honest and focused.) To be able to take advantage of the current situation, the Dems need to straighten up and fly right.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/101305E.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:38 PM

I just keep wondering about the "Return To Family Values"

Just where/when do they want to return to?
I mean the early sixties are now 45 years behind us. Are the good old days farther back? Surely they don't want to return to the days of a Kennedy whitehouse. The free-love/hippy-dippy late 60's early seventies? The Disco, imported Italian Polyester, Coke and Sex late 70's? The I got mine screw you 80's? Just when are they returning to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 02:25 PM

BARRY'S BOYS
(June Reizner)

We're the bright young men
Who want to go back to nineteen-ten
We're Barry's boys.
We're the kids with a cause
Yes a government like grandmama's
We're Barry's boys.
We're the new kind of youth at your Alma Mater
Back to silver standards and solid Goldwater
Back to when the poor were poor and rich were rich
And you felt so damn secure just knowing which were which.

We're the kids who agree
To be social without security
We're Barry's boys
'Cause his hat's in the ring
Where Westbrook Pegler once was king
Now he's too left wing
So if you don't recognize any old Red China
Or Canada, or Britain, or South Carolina
You too can join the crew
Tippecanoe and Nixon too
Back to Barry
Back to cash and carry
Back to Barry's boys.

(spoken)
Why did the chicken cross the road?
To get from the left to the right.

Roses are red, violets are blue
Walter Lippmann's a pinko, too.

A-na-ka-nee, ka-nah, ka-nay
Let's investigate the PTA.

Barry, Barry, make your bid
I love John Birch, but oh you kid.

Mother, mother, wear a grin
And don't complain, or we'll turn you in.

Hold the presses, stop the mail
The Pentagon's having a one-cent sale.

What's the latest news statistic?
Hootenannies are socialistic.

Shut the door and lock and latch it
Here comes Lizzie with a brand new hatchet

(sung)

We're the kids full of nerve
As long as it's conserv-
ative we're Barry's boys
And we can't comprehend
Why our parents aren't friend-
lier to Barry's boys
Why Dad once crusaded for Sacco/Vanzetti
Now all we're doing is doing the same for John Paul Getty
Our parents emulated Roosevelt and Farley
But we just want to grow up to be like Ev and Charley

No college days with Socrates and Plato
When you're Barry's boys
You just organize parades for the abolishment of NATO
And the rest
The entire West
So let's go back to the days when men were men
And start the First World War all over again
That's right you tell 'em son
Isolationism can be fun
Back to Barry
Back to cash and carry
Back to Barry

And remember, "An American first, and a politician second."
Spoken like a true American politician

Back with Barry
Not with Lyndon, Ike or Harry
Back with Barry's boys.



Actually, I miss Barry Goldwater now....


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 02:56 PM

"I have no hope for a third party doing much more than throwing a monkey wrench into things (cf. George Wallace or Ross Perot), but each of us might consider how to move the political establishments in our own state to put redistricting into non-partisan hands. It ain't easy (you can read how Iowa has struggled with this, but they've struggled fairly successfully), but it's well worth doing if it makes party apparatchiks on either side stop taking 80% of the vote for granted."

Well said, Other Dave.

As individuals, other than campaigning for the national candidates that reflect our beliefs, one of the most effective things we can really do to bring about change is to work actively in our own localities. The "Man on a White Horse" charging in to lead us out of the Darkness is a very romantic image, but it happens very rarely, and if you wait for him, he may not come in your lifetime—or your children's. Major social changes within a democracy (particularly in a pseudo-democracy such as ours) happen from the bottom up, like a rising tide. That's when politicians, ever mindful of maintaining there positions as "leaders," will run like hell to get out in front and "lead" the people, once it becomes obvious to them which way the people are going.

I heard a speech a few days ago by a person who is deeply involved in trying to bring about social and political change in this country. He described a meeting he attended recently where several people were bemoaning the fact that the opposition was too great to overcome. "How can we accomplish our goals when we don't have leaders like Martin Luther King anymore?" complained one of those attending the meeting. Then a young woman stood up and gave them a thorough chewing out for their defeatist attitude. She concluded her remarks by saying, "Don't you realize? YOU are the leaders you have all been waiting for! So, get busy!"

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, that Truthout article that saulgoldie posted a link to is excellent.
Be sure to read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:01 PM

It would be pretty interesting to come up with a poll of issues: economics, "family values", foreign policy, Government sprawl, environment, you know what I am getting at, and see just how people tend to fall if they are truly honest about how they feel. I know I do not discuss many issues regarding the quote "conservative values" with many folks because the truth is I am way left of where you would believe me to be.

I have always held out hope that there would be a party that fit in to the middle where I suspect most of us occupy more than we think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:19 PM

Jimmyt: No disrespect intended, but would you be good enough to describe to me exactly what the "middle" is? On the issue of abortion, for example, what would be the "middle" point of view on that? On state's rights? On taxation? On Civil rights?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:51 PM

Hey, Doug:

Not to answer for jimmy (although I think the categories like taxation and civil rights are far too broad to even comment upon) I believe that most people vote their pocketbook. Those what got it want to make sure they keep it, and those what don't want a fairer slice of the pie. My Father worked in a factory all of his life and was a firmly planted Democrat. I think if he had suddenly inherited a million dollars, he would have started voting Republican, to keep all them Union folks and poor from cutting into his inheritance.

Not that I think that there is anything inherently wrong with voting your pocketbook. All those things that people refer to as common needs... clothing, housing, food, transportation and a sense of security all are money driven. I would hope that voting strictly on what is best for yourself would at least somewhat be tempered with a desire to make sure that no one is completely left behind.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:51 PM

Dianavan's putative party already exists.

They call themselves Libertarians, and they fill the bill for a McDonald's Philosophy. Let the government be smaller than the corporations....please!

As they say at despair dot com. "No One Of Us Is As Dumb As All Of Us."

Meanwhile, the Republicans have a lock on power due to the principle that between bad and scared, Americans will vote for bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 07:15 PM

In Canada, where we face taxation at what I call a criminal rate, we often thank God we don't get all the government we seem to be paying for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 08:52 PM

Jerry,

Been at the Getaway and then come home to sickly P-Vine and been workin' all danged day trying to planty as much stuff as can be planted to survive the winter and...

...what's the question???

Oh yeah, Howard Dean...

I'm gettin' a feeling that most of the folks here on Maudcat have never heard him fir any extended period of time...

He isn't like a traditional Dem or Repub...

Maybe that is why so many groups focused solely on defeatin him in '04... The Dems... The Repubs... The Media... All were in cohohzed to kill off Howard Dean...

Problem is that if you took a hundred people, split 33% Dem, 33% Repubg and 33% Independent and sat 'um all down in a room with Howard Dean fir an afternoon, as God as witness, most of them would come out sayin', ""Howard is the Man!!!"... I know this 'cause I have spent a lot of time listening to this man...

He makes perfect sense...

This ain't all about Iraq... Iraq is just one thing that Howard Dean has a position on... He has more insight into problems than I've heard from every other politican combined...

What I am sayin' here is "Give Howard a fresh look"... Wuill he ever be presidential material? No... To damged from the PR side fir that... But he has donwe something that most folks 2 years ago would have sworn that he wouldn't be able to do if he lived to be a 1000 years old... He has taken the DNC!!!

As a Green for two decades, does that make me a Dem again???

No, but interetsed, thank you...

Bobert
(Green fir Dean)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 09:31 PM

Robo - Can you explain this please? "They call themselves Libertarians, and they fill the bill for a McDonald's Philosophy. Let the government be smaller than the corporations....please!"

I understand the term Libertarian (I think) but I don't understand 'McDonald's philosophy' or the next sentence either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 08:53 AM

Di-
As I understand Libertarians, they are for limited government, and they have some vaunted philosophers on the subject harping back to the early days of the American Experiment: But they do not stress limits on private enterprise, including the huge corporations. Big government is the only mechanism which can put a restraint on Big Capital, so I find the Libertarians to be ludicrously self defeating in their basic conception. Their concept of limited government will lead us straight into a new kind of government: Corporate Big Brotherism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: leftydee
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 12:32 PM

Bobert hit it on the head when he wrote " ...Iraq is just one thing HD has a position on." The point being that he HAS a position. The tragedy of the Dems recently has been the fact that no one is willing to be anything but Republican-lite. Less fullfilling, tastes like chicken crap. Kerry got beat because he didn't really offer any options. It's time for liberals to take back the Democratic Party and be unafraid to offer some things that would give the people of this great country clear choices. Where's the Democratic leadership right now when these crooks are on the ropes. They should be out throwing punches but choose to hide and hope they self-destruct. Imagine the uproar the Repubs would have created when Clinton was President. It's time to hear a new voice that speaks for the people not his corporate cronies. Help us find someone Howard!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 01:20 PM

The most noted and outspoken Libertarian I know and would listen to if his program were on in the DFW area would be Neal Boortz. You can visit his website and basically read what his beliefs are. If you visit his website, be prepared for a democrat/liberal bashing plethora of articles and his opinions but the basic belief structure is listed on his site. Otherwise, it's quite an entertaining site.

In my opinion, dianavan, libertarians are not really much different in belief structure from republicans except in the issues of government size and wanting to legalize drugs. There are a few other items of difference but those are the two largest ones.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 01:27 PM

I have posted this on various threads on Mudcat about forty-'leven times, and people may be getting sick of seeing it, but it merits constant repetition, like a mantra, until the Democratic Party finally gets it.

"Between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the Republican will win every time."
                                                                                                                              --Harry S. Truman

Now, you may not have like Truman, but you sure as hell knew where he stood.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 01:27 PM

Libertarian Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 02:00 PM

My understanding of Libertarianism is that it is also very big on separation of church and state and individual liberties, two things that do not have much support in the Repub platform of the current era. Repubs who call themselves Libertarian have alot of nerve.

Furthermore, true libertarianism would not protect the corporate interests as they like to be protected from consumers, their stock-holders, and community interests. There would be a lot more chaos in the business world under true Libertarianism, and the corporate interests would not like the unpredictability, not one bit. Neither, I suspect would the majority of citizens.

When asked honestly, without spin or personalities about most of the popular issues of the day, most Americans are somewhat left of what is currently considered "center." The Dems need to get back to THEIR home territory with solid positions and talking points and stop trying to be "Republican-lite" and the people will find them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 03:36 PM

This is a long screed, folks, but I do have some insight into the formation and fundamental beliefs of the Libertarian Party. So fix yourself a cup of tea or coffee, or pop open a beer, prop your feet up, and read on:

During the mid-Sixties, in various parts of the country, people gathered around tape recorders to listen to a series of taped lectures given by psychologist Nathaniel Branden. There were several courses put out on tape by others, such as one on logic and rational thinking (quite good, actually) by Barbara Branden, (Branden's then wife), and one on economics by Alan Greenspan, now chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. These taped lecture courses were available through the Nathaniel Branden Institute. At the time, Branden was a disciple of, spokesman for, and lecturer on Objectivism, the philosophy of novelist Ayn Rand. The purpose of the Nathaniel Branden Institute was to disseminate the philosophy of Objectivism.

I had read the novels of Ayn Rand (The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, and her earlier novels, Anthem and We the Living) and found the philosophy of individual autonomy, integrity, and being true to one's ideals to resonate very strongly with what I believe myself. So when the taped lecture series started in this area, I enrolled, along with several friends who also found much of what Rand said to be appealing.

But when the lectures got into the realm of politics, I began to see a schism between what Rand seemed to believe and what was actually going on in the real world (that objective reality that she put so much store by—as do I). Much of her political philosophy was based on the idea that there actually are such people as Howard Roark, Hank Reardon, Gail Wynand, Francisco d'Anconian, Dagny Taggert, and, of course, John Galt—all idealistic realists with flawless integrity. Now, I don't doubt the truth of this. I have met some, and I aspire to be one myself. But—Ayn Rand maintained that most American corporations are run by such people. In fact, I read a magazine article written by her in which she insists that this is truly the case.

I don't think I need to go into the reasons why I gradually began to find this a major dissonance in what I had previously regarded as a rock-solid, reality-based philosophy. I was with her up until that point.

Then, when she attacked environmentalists as being nothing more than a bunch of Granola-eating, sandal-wearing, dope-smoking, anti-business hippies who should "get down on their knees and give thanks to the dirtiest of smokestacks in the factories that are responsible for producing the affluence that allows them to spend all of their time in mindless demonstrations," that's when she lost me for sure. Because I also read a lot of science books and magazines, and I bloody well knew that she had slammed her heretofore acute mind shut and was talking through her nether orifice.

Naturally, in line with the government regulations that had been arbitrarily inhibiting all the good that her noble fictional heroes were attempting to lay upon a needy world, she demanded total deregulation of business. There, too, I had read some of the early works of Ralph Nader and other consumer advocates, and knew that Hank Reardon and John Galt, with their shining integrity, were not the ones in charge of American corporations.

It was about this time that the Libertarian Party got started. Now I'm not sure that it was actually initiated by Objectivists—followers of Ayn Rand's philosophy, particularly her political philosophy—but they were very much present and very influential in setting the direction that this new party was to go. And reading their web sites now tells me that they have remained true to their initial goals (would that this could be said of the Democratic Party, but that's another story). It was about the time that the Libertarian Party was forming that Nathaniel Brandon and Ayn Rand (now deceased) parted company rather unpleasantly. It seems that in the Inner Circle, everybody was having an affair with everybody else's spouse, and, among other things, Rand, who had fiercely advocated independent thinking, had a screaming fit when Branden had the temerity to disagree with her about something.

If you want to get a clue as to the aims of the Libertarian Party, familiarize yourself with the non-fiction writings of Ayn Rand, particularly The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal.

I am with the Libertarian Party all the way when it comes to matters of personal freedom and the government staying the hell out of people's lives—matters of whom you can marry, what you can do in the privacy of your own home (including what you chose to smoke or ingest—the Europeans handle this quite well, and we should study how they do it), what church you go to—if you chose to go at all, and all else that has to do with personal autonomy.

But the Libertarian Party's position on business and the economy is somewhat to the right of the neo-conservatives. Complete deregulation of business and the elimination of all social programs.

The CEO of Enron was no John Galt.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 04:05 PM

Yugo, Don!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 04:45 PM

I'm very much afraid that third parties in this country don't stand much of a chance. That's just the way the system works (or doesn't), especially when a large chunk of the media is owned by supporters of one of the two major parties—a third party just doesn't get air-time, and that's one of the major factors in winning an election in this country. Tell me, quick: what were the names of the presidential candidates put forth by the Libertarian Party, the Green Party, and the Constitution Party? Didn't hear those names in the news very often, did you!?

I generally advocate the position taken by Thom Hartmann (clearly explained HERE), that, in view of the sad history of third parties in this country, the most practical and effective way to bring about the changes we want, is to join the Democratic Party (the more progressive of the two parties, which, granted, ain't sayin' much!) and work to reform that party, bringing it back to the ideals that they used to have. Howard Dean is a good start, and that's hopeful. There are others in the Democratic Party also, like Dennis Kucinich and John Edwards, who, if not outright progressive, at least lean more in that direction than, say, John Kerry—although if you were to point him in the right direction and give him a shove. . . .

Speaking of Thom Hartman, if you're into graphic novels and such, take a look at THIS.

If I were going to join a third party, it would not be the Libertarian Party, it would be the Green Party (hi, there, Bobert!). The Green Party doesn't hide behind a lot of political rhetoric. Like Harry Truman, whom I quoted (yet again!) above, the Greens are more than happy to have you know exactly where they stand in relation to the two major parties. In capsule form, here are the Ten Key Values. No wishy-washy double talk to cover hidden agendas there. Right out, in plain language, for all to see.

I sorta wonder what might happen if the members of the Green Party all joined the Democratic Party and started kickin' some butt!

If you're a little fuzzy about why the United States has only two viable political parties, and various other aspects of what we like to think of as democracy—or if you think you know exactly what democracy is—I highly recommend First Democracy : The Challenge of an Ancient Idea by Paul Woodruff HERE. Is the United States really a democratic country? Read the book and then you decide.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 05:50 PM

Never mine in the yr 2006, is any one watching today. This week Bush is pushing 50 billion in cuts to social services while at the same time giving the rich another xmas present, 70 billion in tax breaks (see move on). I believe by this New years eve Bush well have driven his last nails into his own coffin.

Always Hopefull

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 11:41 AM

And the question on everyone's lips is, "Where are the Democrats?!!" I keep hoping that they will rise up and start drumming out the themes that are the Democratic cornerstones. But they don't. Nope, not even the Good Doctor, unless he is but it is buried in the news somewhere along with other important REAL stories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 12:02 AM

Most of the people I know who self-identify as libertarians think the Republicans are a bunch of left-wing communists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:03 AM

An interesting clip from comments sent in to the Times Freakonomics column recently:

""For example, I think that Presidents have very little to do with the success or failure of the economy."

I guess then that it is just a coincidence that, over the past 50 years, deficits decline during Democratic administrations and rise precipitously under Republicans. Both Clinton and LBJ left office having turned deficits into surpluses (and LBJ had the Vietnam War to finance). Under Democratic administrations, joblessness falls, poverty falls, and crime falls. All three rise under Republican administrations.

Here are some comparisons of economic performance during Democratic and Republican administrations:

Growth of real disposable personal income (1953-2001)

D: 3.65% R: 3.08%

Employment gains per year (1953-2001)

D: 1.684 million/year R: 1.279 million/year

Unemployment (1947-2001)
D: 4.8% R: 6.3%

Average after-tax return on tangible capital (1952-2004)

D: 4.3% R: 3.2%

GDP Growth (1962-2001)

D: 3.9%

R: 2.9%

GDP Growth (1930-2000)

D: 5.4% R: 1.6%

Inflation (1962-2000)

D: 4.26% R: 4.96%

Percentage Growth in total federal spending (1962-2001)

D: 6.96% R: 7.57%

Percentage growth in non-defense federal spending (1962-2001)

D: 8.34% R:10.08%

Yearly budget deficit (1962 - 2001)

D: $36 billion R: $190 billion

Increase in national debt (1962-2001)

D: $0.72 trillion (20 years) $3.8 trillion (20 years)

Annual stock market returns (1927 - 2000) (DOW)

D: 13.4% R:8.1%

Annual stock market returns (1927-2000) (S&P 500)

D: 12.3% R: 8.0%

Sources include BLS, Forbes, WSJ, the Fed, CPI, U.S. Government 2003 Budget, etc.

Note that in EVERY METRIC, Democratic administrations show statistically significant improvement in performance over Republican administrations (and few of these figures include ANY data from Dubya's administration, which will drag down Republican averages in a number of critical catagories).

For those of you who do not believe the President and his advisors have much influence on the economy, that's a helluva lot of coincidences to explain.

— Posted by Blue Sun "


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:28 PM

Kinda funny then, Amos, how there is is strong belief that the Repubs 'are the friend of business, and those who want to make profits'...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:37 AM

Could be they are friends of certain business groups or business men who can profit while their companies decline.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

July 21, 2008
Delusional Checklist for Republicans
By Ben Cohen


"After 7 1/2 years of Republican rule, there are many conservatives sticking to their principles despite overwhelming evidence that none of their policies work. It would not be unreasonable to describe them as delusional, so I've come up with a check list to determine their sanity. If you believe that the following is true, it may be advisable to seek medical attention:

1. The war in Iraq is winnable
2. That we are fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq
3. John McCain is the best candidate on security
4. We need to go to war with Iran
5. Tax cuts will save the economy
6. The free market will save health care
7. We need less regulation for the financial sector
8. NAFTA and other free trade agreements will provide prosperity for everyone
9. Obama is a socialist
10. You can have a 'War on Terror'

This is of course, satirical, but it still amazes me that the same arguments are being made in public debate. Regular people have suffered through years of this bankrupt ideology, and are clearly eager to move on. Over 80% of the population believe America is on the wrong track, and are growing more and more eager to enact serious change in public policy.

The Republican candidate John McCain has tied himself to all of the above positions, and will deserves to find himself on the receiving end of a political battering this year. Another 4 years of failed policies may break the United States completely, and there must be a concerted effort to stop him. We can start by understanding the problem, and thankfully, we have an enormous amount of evidence to sift through. The current administration's abysmal record is a perfect example of what not to do in government, and it should now be clear that their policies should be banished to the rubbish dump of history. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

Don't count them out. They have purged the CIA and Pentagon to do their bidding. They are going to go full bore, if only to protect their war criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Joe_F
Date: 22 Jul 08 - 08:55 PM

It is is bad taste to mention the likely effect of another large terrorist attack before the election, but I will do so. I suspect there are people in the present administration who are wicked enough to connive at or fake such a thing -- there are in any government -- but I doubt if they have the power to do so. More useful to the Republicans, in any case, would be a foiled attempt, especially if it were hinted and/or leaked that illegal means had been used to foil it. That could be more easily faked, or of course it might actually happen. I am inclined to expect it. It will be terribly demoralizing to the opposition, including me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 06:54 AM

"More useful to the Republicans, in any case, would be a foiled attempt, especially if it were hinted and/or leaked that illegal means had been used to foil it. That could be more easily faked, or of course it might actually happen."


How could it possibly happen? After all, there IS no terrorist threat- Just look at the consensus here on Mudcat.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/09/whitehouse.plots/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 07:30 AM

"the Democrats have to be for something as well as against Republican stupidity. "


Well, they lost the last election that way. I doubt if they have learned anything, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

Don't forget! W and Putin see eye to eye in a dicator kind of way.

Re-establishing a cold war stand off and fear factor of, lets say, an ongoing Cuban missle crises will help each dictator direct the wealth of their nation and control of its hostage citizens.

WATCH FOR THE NEW AND IMPROVED CUBAN MISSLE CRISES COMING TO A MEDIA OUTLET NEAR YOU>


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:59 AM

"These (Republican tea) parties — antitaxation demonstrations that are supposed to evoke the memory of the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution — have been the subject of considerable mockery, and rightly so.

But everything that critics mock about these parties has long been standard practice within the Republican Party.

Thus, President Obama is being called a "socialist" who seeks to destroy capitalism. Why? Because he wants to raise the tax rate on the highest-income Americans back to, um, about 10 percentage points less than it was for most of the Reagan administration. Bizarre.

But the charge of socialism is being thrown around only because "liberal" doesn't seem to carry the punch it used to. And if you go back just a few years, you find top Republican figures making equally bizarre claims about what liberals were up to. Remember when Karl Rove declared that liberals wanted to offer "therapy and understanding" to the 9/11 terrorists?

Then there are the claims made at some recent tea-party events that Mr. Obama wasn't born in America, which follow on earlier claims that he is a secret Muslim. Crazy stuff — but nowhere near as crazy as the claims, during the last Democratic administration, that the Clintons were murderers, claims that were supported by a campaign of innuendo on the part of big-league conservative media outlets and figures, especially Rush Limbaugh.

Speaking of Mr. Limbaugh: the most impressive thing about his role right now is the fealty he is able to demand from the rest of the right. The abject apologies he has extracted from Republican politicians who briefly dared to criticize him have been right out of Stalinist show trials. But while it's new to have a talk-radio host in that role, ferocious party discipline has been the norm since the 1990s, when Tom DeLay, the House majority leader, became known as "The Hammer" in part because of the way he took political retribution on opponents.

Going back to those tea parties, Mr. DeLay, a fierce opponent of the theory of evolution — he famously suggested that the teaching of evolution led to the Columbine school massacre — also foreshadowed the denunciations of evolution that have emerged at some of the parties.

Last but not least: it turns out that the tea parties don't represent a spontaneous outpouring of public sentiment. They're AstroTurf (fake grass roots) events, manufactured by the usual suspects. In particular, a key role is being played by FreedomWorks, an organization run by Richard Armey, the former House majority leader, and supported by the usual group of right-wing billionaires. And the parties are, of course, being promoted heavily by Fox News.

But that's nothing new, and AstroTurf has worked well for Republicans in the past. The most notable example was the "spontaneous" riot back in 2000 — actually orchestrated by G.O.P. strategists — that shut down the presidential vote recount in Florida's Miami-Dade County.

So what's the implication of the fact that Republicans are refusing to grow up, the fact that they are still behaving the same way they did when history seemed to be on their side? I'd say that it's good for Democrats, at least in the short run — but it's bad for the country.

For now, the Obama administration gains a substantial advantage from the fact that it has no credible opposition, especially on economic policy, where the Republicans seem particularly clueless.

But as I said, the G.O.P. remains one of America's great parties, and events could still put that party back in power. We can only hope that Republicans have moved on by the time that happens. ..."


(NYT Columnist P. Krugman)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 10:44 AM

At this time, the only thing that seems to keep the Republican Party going is the complete ineptitude of the Democratic Party. We need a strong third party so bad it's painful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: maire-aine
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 10:45 AM

I read the same article, Amos. I went out to one of the websites that's organizing this stuff. Krugman's blog has more links to their websites. Many of the people posting comments seemed badly mis-informed about the Obama tax plan. And the neo-cons are capitalizing on their confusion, if not deliberately lying to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 11:12 AM

"At this time, the only thing that seems to keep the Republican Party going is the complete ineptitude of the Democratic Party."

Oh pooh! They keep going because their brains are locked into their collections of single-issue ideas and slogans about those ideas! Where else would they go? Third parties simply don't work in this political system... except to occasionally spoil an election for one side or another.

The Democrats are beginning to see how a modicum of openness and honesty, when half-way well administered can actually get them elected and help people too! Too bad they have to do it under these trying conditions where NO plan seems to be ideal and progress costs so much!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 11:29 AM

"(NYT Columnist P. Krugman) "


To follow Amos's past commentary:

"Another totally impartial commentor... NOT."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 02:27 PM

"Third parties simply don't work in this political system... except to occasionally spoil an election for one side or another..."


                They do work sometimes. We don't have Whigs anymore--though we do have "Know Nothings"--we call them Democrats. And the last time I voted, there weren't any Federalists on the ballot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:08 PM

so...I left out the word 'anymore'.. This system has too many features designed to answer to 'either/or'.

and you want to apply "Know Nothings" to Democrats? *grin*....when Republicans and their talking heads have been mis-reading and faking facts in bucketloads recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:30 PM

Ach, Rig, old friend, come home from Wonderland!!! The children are crying....




A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM

In actual U.S. History, the group that actually described itself as the "Know-Nothing Party" was nativist (i.e., biased against blacks and immigrants) and pro-robber-baron in the name of the "Free Market."

Of the two present-day major parties, I don't think that it's the Democrats who are following this model.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM

Maybe it was just that what they knew didn't amount to nothin'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 05:52 PM

Statistics on the decline of the GOP. I believe these turbulent numbers come from an innate confusion about the word "values". or possibly the word "American".



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 06:14 PM

Hmmmmmmm???

Has it really been 4 years since I predicted that the Republican Party was going to implode... Even said that MCCain wouldn't even be able to save it...

I'd say I got that bit of predictin' the future right...

Truth be known, I'd forgotten about this thread a long time ago... But not my feekings that the Repubs were screwing things up badly...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:30 PM

We just simply have to quit electing people who are hopelessly addicted to some ancient superstition, like Sarah Palin and Barack Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:55 PM

You are confused, Rigs... ***We*** didn't elect Sarah Palin... ***We*** rejected her...

Your attempt to link Obama and the Frontier Roller Derby Queeen is, ahhhhhhh, juvenilistic, at best...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:09 PM

Personally I agree with the Krugman article. I've been listening to the small chunks of Limbaugh that exude between commercials and he's devolving to a johnny one-note. I think the Republicans have made the transition from elephant not to donkey, but to ass, one with its legs straight out in drag position.

It seems to me they are not engaging the issues of the times with any intellectuality. They are simply braying. It's not for nothing that the son of William F Buckley came out for Obama before the election.

(Wonder if the FDR era was similar?)

We really need a better more cogent Opposition. For the good of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:15 PM

The Repubs ain't it, Robo... They are nuthin' but sports fans anymore... The South is devoid of a sufficiency of intellegent people anymore... If it ain't NASCAR then it ain't sh*t...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:56 AM

"You are confused, Rigs... ***We*** didn't elect Sarah Palin... ***We*** rejected her..."


                   The people of Alaska elected her. But the point is, Palin and Obama are cut from the same bolt of clothe. They both refuse to deal with reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:06 AM

The Repubs ain't down for the count yet.

Have a read of Kevin Phillips' book American Theocracy... and Michael Goldberg's Kingdom Coming....

Scary stuff.

(PS: Phillips is a Republican)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:14 AM

Anyone who thinks the Republicans are down for the count simply is not dealing with reality. The American voter is extremely self centered. Most especially the great middle/independent/moderate Repub/conservative Dem. They vote on the issues and events at the moment that are driving them. In the last election it was clear that they woke up and realized that they had been deceived, and the price of that was declining home values, job losses, 401k savings severely damaged, and they voted their pocket book. Obama will take the necessary steps to get us off life support and get the economy started back up. Our greed has a price tag, and it will be paid. But when things start rolling again, you can count on the great middle to have a short memory, and to start the same old stuff again. And so it goes in the Land of the Free. One can only hope that the one thing that sticks in their minds is that we must have the appropriate regulatory safety net on our financial institutions, food manufacturers, and drug manufacturers. I would also hope that they would see the correlation between strong labor laws and a thriving middle class.

But do not count the Republicans out. They are down....... but they are not out. They have a whole generation of Rovian mindbots that are looking to widen the gap between the haves and the havenots.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 11:01 AM

Mick, I am afraid there is no question-- they VILL be back. The progress we make is always whiplash-formed, with the forces of Boskone always finding new dramatizations to offer to our most lizardly sides. As PAscal observed, we are ni bete, ni ange.

RIg, what reality is it you believe in that Mr. Obama is refusing to deal with? I have to confess, sometimes you sound liuke a genuine scurrilous blackguard in your unfounded assertions.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 11:59 AM

I think that is what I said, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:18 PM

Well, then I was agreeing with you, right?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:29 PM

cool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM

"RIg, what reality is it you believe in that Mr. Obama is refusing to deal with?"


                   The same one Sarah Palin is refusing to deal with, reality in general. One can't solve problems without dealing with "all" of the symptoms. A leader can't simply take a solution off the table simply because it offends somebody's superstitious beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:14 PM

Rig....... that is convoluted. It is the equivalent of saying, "THEY are out to get us". You were asked a direct question. You indicate that it is "reality in general". Please give a specific definition and examples of what the hell you are referring to.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

What I'm saying is, when we see political decisions perverted by religious imput, we normally get bad decisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:29 PM

Obama as far as I know has kept his religious views out of his public decisions. The right-wing nutballs were chastising him for not going to church for eleven weeks; your side, understandably, chastises him for having any non-reasoned faith at all. But, look here--it is a very different thing for him to have a private faith, and for him to do as Bush did and insist his faith is "part of his foreign policy", personally communicated from his hair dryer deity.

It is none of my business--or yours--what he does with his private beliefs as long as they do not color his public decisions.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:35 PM

Well, Amos, we can agree on that. But we have already seen his superstition involving itself in public policy when he decided to leave the Office of Faith Based Initiatives open. I think it will happen more often than not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 02:50 PM

Are there specific programs involving the OFBI to which you object? Or is it just the title which sets you off?

I sympathize with your distaste for many of the memes and symbols, icons, and plaster personae that are bandied about in the name of faith. But I would submit for reflection that faith without incarnations and symbols may just be something intrinsically very valuable and useful to any viewpoint embedded in the maze of space-time. The reason is that being locked into space-time tends to severely constrict the ability to know, so severely that it leaves natural responsibility desperate for some way to know enough to exercise itself.

From this perspective it is possible that "faith" may constitute a valuable baby in the midst of a lot of bathwater, one with whom it behooves us to treat kindly.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 03:41 PM

Amos,

"you sound liuke a genuine scurrilous blackguard in your unfounded assertions."

As well you should know, from your past obsessions with Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:33 PM

God, Bruce, I wish you would come up with a genuine sentiment of your own once in a while, instead of constantly resorting to this puerile neener-neener style bullshit.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 05:14 PM

And that from someone who presents NYT opinion as if it were fact????

I wish you would ( as you said you would) apply the SAME standards to your evaluation of Obama that you applied to Bush.


Unless you want to insist that he is above the law, morality, and critical observation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:51 PM

I do not do any such thing. The NYT articles I have presented are always presented as views. A view, I should point out to you, is not the same as a fact.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 10:21 PM

So not only are the Grimm Reepers writing the tea-party fairy tale, they are now falsifying MIT!

"MEDIA -- EDITOR: 'I'M EMBARRASSED' I PUBLISHED REP. BACHMANN'S CAP AND TRADE LIES: On April 8, global warming denier Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) published an op-ed in the Minneapolis Star Tribune that attacked green economy legislation by claiming that "cap and trade" is really "cap and tax." To make her argument, Bachmann wrote, "[A]ccording to an analysis by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the average American household could expect its yearly energy bill to increase by $3,128 per year." This claim, however, was a flat lie, as a letter to the editor published the very next day  pointed out. In fact, Bachmann's lie had been debunked publicly by MIT's John Reilly with Politifact.com on Tuesday, March 24. Reilly also sent a letter to the congressional Republican leadership denouncing their repeated use of the fabricated figure. In an interview with the Wonk Room's Brad Johnson, Eric Ringham, the opinion page editor of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, acknowledged that the MIT lie was fully debunked before the column was submitted by Bachmann. "It wasn't on my radar. I'm embarrassed to have let it go unchallenged," said Ringham. Ringham told Johnson that with both the limited resources he has and the role of the opinion page as a forum for argument, it is "an uncomfortable role" for an op-ed editor to run corrections after a column's publication. "I'm not equipped -- or really inclined -- to go, after the fact, probing someone's assertions," said Ringham. Despite the fact that a correction will not be run, Ringham said, "You can rest assured this study is never going to be represented in the paper again without confirmation it's being accurately portrayed."


"


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:33 AM

Bobert, Thank you for saving me from starting this thread.

They entire name of the Republican party should go. It is baggage that true conservatives no longer need or want. I have seen staunch republicans peel the GOP stickers off their bumpers.

The only platform that would do them any good is a jobs platform.

The secessonists, racists, evangelicals and gun fanatics could gather behind the jobs banner but the big money of the party that was designed for total corporate rule of the country would not want to get on board with what could be deemed a new labor movement.

For now the GOP is the no party, the do nothing and pray party, the "I'm so pissed of that were gonna go kill us some *****, party"

Whatever fundamental change the GOP makes will by human nature be fundamentally irrational and not helpful except to cause more violence and hate.


They need to bury the dead elephant.
The name they should choose is   ... FOX.
It could stand for Freedom Or Xtinction and members would be called Freedomists. (of course the plan would be to eliminate freedoms, but that is another story)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:04 AM

On the other hand, some Republicans are doing some very constructive things. See below:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2009/04/16//news/sandiego//z3a7cb4466b4507ce882575970077d470.txt


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 07:27 PM

Actuall, the Republicans have a lot to work with, see attached:


Illegal immigrants cashing in on federal tax credits, study shows.
By: Kevin Mooney
Examiner Staff Writer/Commentary
04/16/09 5:19 AM

Large numbers of illegal immigrants file tax returns using phony Social Security numbers to cash in on the federal Earned Income Tax Credit, thanks to lax government management, according to the author of a new study.

"Technically, only people authorized to work in the U.S. are eligible for the credit, you need a valid Social security number," said Ed Rubenstein, a financial analyst and economist, speaking at a news conference Tuesday at the National Press Club.

"But identity theft, stolen Social Security numbers, and other scams effectively nullify the restriction. As a result, illegal aliens actually receive the EITC at even greater rates than legal immigrants," Rubenstein said.

The IRS makes little or no effort to verify the authenticity of Social Security numbers, or existence of dependant children, Rubenstein said.

This makes it possible for illegal immigrants to claim children still living in Mexico as dependents and for parents living illegally in the U.S. to file separate returns claiming the same children as dependents under the EITC, Rubenstein said.

The EITC was created to boost work incentives for poor families with children. Childless households received a maximum $438 payment in 2008, while the maximum available to families with two or more children was $4,824.

"From a distance, the EITC looks like a winner," he said. "The devil is in the details. For starters, the program is dominated by fraud."
Illegal immigrant households are more than three times as likely to receive EITC than native-born American households,

Rubenstein said. Higher fertility rates evident among the immigrant population accounts for this disparity, he said.

"Even a tiny increase in the fertility rates, if maintained over the decades, will have enormous consequences," Rubenstein said. "The role of EITC in the nation's demographic destiny cannot be denied."

Rubenstein also cited figures from the General Accounting Office (GAO) showing that as many as a third of all EITC claims are "improperly paid."

Rubenstein's report "The Earned Income Tax Credit and Illegal Immigration: A Study in Fraud, Abuse and Liberal Activism" is available at The SocialContract.Com.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 11:30 AM

The GOP: divorced from reality

The Republican base is behaving like a guy who just got dumped by his wife.

By Bill Maher
April 24, 2009


"If conservatives don't want to be seen as bitter people who cling to their guns and religion and anti-immigrant sentiments, they should stop being bitter and clinging to their guns, religion and anti-immigrant sentiments.

It's been a week now, and I still don't know what those "tea bag" protests were about. I saw signs protesting abortion, illegal immigrants, the bank bailout and that gay guy who's going to win "American Idol." But it wasn't tax day that made them crazy; it was election day. Because that's when Republicans became what they fear most: a minority.


The conservative base is absolutely apoplectic because, because ... well, nobody knows. They're mad as hell, and they're not going to take it anymore. Even though they're not quite sure what "it" is. But they know they're fed up with "it," and that "it" has got to stop.

Here are the big issues for normal people: the war, the economy, the environment, mending fences with our enemies and allies, and the rule of law.

And here's the list of Republican obsessions since President Obama took office: that his birth certificate is supposedly fake, he uses a teleprompter too much, he bowed to a Saudi guy, Europeans like him, he gives inappropriate gifts, his wife shamelessly flaunts her upper arms, and he shook hands with Hugo Chavez and slipped him the nuclear launch codes.

Do these sound like the concerns of a healthy, vibrant political party?

It's sad what's happened to the Republicans. They used to be the party of the big tent; now they're the party of the sideshow attraction, a socially awkward group of mostly white people who speak a language only they understand. Like Trekkies, but paranoid...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:25 AM

The RAssmussen Poll for today reports that 53% of those polled predicted that the next president will be a Republican. I think it is a bit early to be writing our obituary. After all, Bobert started this thread in 2005. For those of the liberal persuasion that was four years ago.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 02:28 AM

I think it more likely the next President elected will be Barack Obama.


But there's many a mmile between now and then.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 08:21 AM

He meant the next president after Obama.
The Republican part is going to have to do something intelligent if they don't want to continue being laughed at. It could happen. Quit letting gasbags speak for the part, come up with a platform that isn't basically a list of what they hate.

When you're number 2, and the Repubs are most definitely number 2, it seems to be popular to ridicule and attack number 1. I think a growing number of Americans see through that. They're gonna have to come up with some 'pros' and come up with some believable ideas that aren't based on the Democratic party. I think if they could have done it, the already would have. The time is ripe for a new party or an internal Republican party coup. They have to find their own hope and idealism, or they just look like a party whose identity is all about the other guys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 09:23 AM

If there were only enough honest Democrats to fill all the posts in the government, the Republicans wouldn't have as much to squawk about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 09:26 AM

I'm sure you didn't mean to provide a convenient example...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 10:07 AM

Michelle Bachmann is one of the Republicans who has added to the pile of "reasons to laugh" at the party. Her latest crazy statement is that climate change can't be real because "Carbon dioxide, Mister Speaker, is a natural byproduct of nature. Carbon dioxide is natural. It occurs in Earth".


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 10:21 AM

More evidence from Michelle Bachmann for being the dunce of Congress:

"Literally, if we took away the minimum wage—if conceivably it was gone—we could potentially virtually wipe out unemployment completely because we would be able to offer jobs at whatever level." —Michele Bachmann, 1/26/05, Jobs, Energy and Community Development Committee, testifying against SF 3, a bill to raise the MN minimum wage and advocating the elimination of the minimum wage altogether..

"Many teenagers that come in should be paying the employer because of broken dishes or whatever occurs during that period of time. But you know what? After six months, that teenager is going to be a fabulous employee and is going to go on a trajectory where he's going to be making so much money, we'll be borrowing money from him." —Michele Bachmann, 1/26/05, explaining why teenagers should pay employers for the privilege of working instead of receiving minimum wage.

"I look at the Scripture and I read it and I take it for what it is. I give more credence in the Scripture as being kind of a timeless word of God to mankind, and I take it for what it is. And I don't think I give as much credence to my own mind, because I see myself as being very limited and very flawed, and lacking in knowledge, and wisdom and understanding. So, I just take the Bible for what it is, I guess, and recognize that I am not a scientist, not trained to be a scientist. I'm not a deep thinker on all of this. I wish I was. I wish I was more knowledgeable, but I'm not a scientist." - Michele Bachmann interviewing with Todd Fiel at KKMS as quoted in the Stillwater Gazette, September 29, 2003.

"Something that I think sometimes people don't like to hear is that secular people can be sometimes even more dogmatic in beliefs than people who are not secular. ... In some ways, to believe in evolution is almost like a following; a cult following — if you don't believe in evolution, you're considered completely backward. That seems to me very indicative of bias as well." - Michele Bachmann quoted in the Stillwater Gazette, September 29, 2003.

"No one that I know disagrees with natural selection — that you can take various breeds of dogs ... breed them, you get different kinds of dogs," she said. "It's just a fact of life. ... Where there's controversy is (at the question) 'Where do we say that a cell became a blade of grass, which became a starfish, which became a cat, which became a donkey, which became a human being?' There's a real lack of evidence from change from actual species to a different type of species. That's where it's difficult to prove." - Michele Bachmann quoted in the Stillwater Gazette, September 29, 2003.

well.... there's so much more she has said, but I'll stop there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: pdq
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM

The above article is a group of selected quotes intended to slime the speaker. It can be done to anyone.

Here is something from Michelle Bachmann about incandescent lightbulbs...

"Bachmann introduced the Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act, to repeal the nationwide phase-out of conventional light bulbs. She argued that the government has no business telling consumers what kind of light bulbs they can buy: 'By 2012, incandescent light bulbs will be no more,' Bachmann said. 'Fluorescent bulbs are more polluting because of their mercury content.' "

Yes, a broken flourescent light tube is a mini toxic waste spill. Imagine breaking one in the stove hood while dinner is cooking?

Also, the US government has no right to tell people what to do in their daily lives. Good work Michelle Bachmann.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 10:01 PM

"I'm sure you didn't mean to provide a convenient example..."


                All of the tax cheats who withdrew their nomination, and those that did not. It's just typical of elite Democrats, they think the rules apply to everyone but themselves and their friends. Having said that, I don't think the Republicans are much better. I think a strong third party is the best option.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 06:55 PM

The % of people who now declare they are Republicans are now 21%

That is less than the % of people who believe in ESP

That is less than half of people who believe in angels.

Where did they go?

They are now Independants which will outnumber the % of Democrats by next election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 07:51 PM

Wow Imagine what the first 100 days of a Michelle Bachman Presidency would look like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:05 PM

LOL, Donuel...

But really, Michelle Bachmann has marginalized herself so much that nothing she say surprises me any more... She is like a Mad magazine character...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:10 PM

What worrys me are the people who are not worried about Michelle, her sanity and her pandering to Valdemort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:47 PM

I think that political parties should be done away with.
Nominations, elections, and serving in a governmental office should
remain the same, but the politicians shouldn't be tied to any political
party.
This way, there won't be any bias views expressed by the media
towards certain politicians because of the party to which they belong.
There are good and bad Republicans, and the same with Democrats; if
we took away those two labels, then there would be more peace among
the world of politics. Independents are usually overlooked in election
campaigns, but at least they aren't strictly tied to a right-wing nor
a left-wing party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 09:17 PM

With needs and wants there will come organized parties to satisfy those needs.

Its simply a matter of who needs what.


Republicans NEED to: Build Bombs for profit
Republicans need to bail out their own Banks (because they own them)
Republicans want to build more prisons
Republicans want the rich to go tax free.
Republicans want any law or regulation that limit thier schemes tossed out.

Democrats need livable wages
Democrats need affordable housing
Democrats need collective Health care like we do with fireman and police.
Democrats want a fair share of the pie
Democrats want any law or regulation that insures fairness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 09:22 PM

"What worrys me are the people who are not worried about Michelle Bachmann..."


                  They don't have time to worry about Michelle Bachmann, they have to worry about Nancy Pelosi!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 09:46 PM

I think Nancy has a windows virus...her smile is frozen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 01:34 AM

Go Michelle!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 02:12 AM

Why would you want to cheer for a fountain of idiocy, Doug R?

The rational completely escapes me! What on earth is the point???


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:42 AM

Why would you want to cheer for a fountain of idiocy, Doug R?

This has been Douggie's consistent position for years. He's a firm believer in idiocy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: curmudgeon
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 02:39 PM

WASHINGTON – Veteran Republican Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania abruptly switched parties Tuesday, a move intended to boost his re-election chances that also pushed Democrats within one seat of a 60-vote filibuster-resistant majority.

"I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans," Specter said in a statement posted on a Web site devoted to Pennsylvania politics and confirmed by his office. Several Senate officials said a formal announcement was expected at mid-afternoon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:07 PM

I heard Senator Specter say he made the decision because it is what the PA constituency wanted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:10 PM

How much more can the Republicans take? Demoralized, shrinking and seemingly lacking an agenda beyond the word "no," Republicans today saw their ranks further thinned with the stunning news that Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter is switching parties and will run for reelection in 2010 as a Democrat.

Specter is worried about his own survival -- and particularly a primary challenge from the right. Many in the GOP might say good riddance. After supporting President Obama's stimulus package, Specter was persona non grata in his own party. So it may be easy for some Republicans to conclude that they are better off without people like Arlen Specter.

But his defection is a reminder that the Republican Party continues to contract, especially outside the South, and that it appears increasingly less welcome to politicians and voters who do not consider themselves solidly conservative. Northeast Republicans have gone from an endangered species to a nearly extinct species. Republicans lost ground in the Rocky Mountains and the Midwest in the last two elections. That's no way to build a national party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:06 PM

No question who Obama's handlers are now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:46 PM

Gawd, you spew nonsense, Rig. Who in particular are you talking about?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Neil D
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:49 PM

Sen. Specter said that the Republican Party has been hijacked by right wing ideologues who want to purge it of centrists like him.
Some would say he is an opportunist who is just following the winds of change (he started out as a Democrat in the 60's and changed parties when he couldn't win as a Democrat) but he is right on about the right wingers and I believe this is the reason for the party's
downswing. You can't keep hammering the God and guns wedge issues when people are suffering from a trashed econmomy and a healthcare system in disarray. It just doesn't play to middle America anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:52 PM

I'm an agnostic who likes guns.

So which of the two parties should I be a member of?

Is there a "F*** 'Em All" party? We need one.

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:57 PM

You should start one, Peter!! The FemAll Party FemAll stands for Equality for Women and Indifference to Politicians and Lobbyists.


F*** 'Em All!! Vote FEMALL!!!!









A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:06 PM

Perhaps Dave Barry said it best (he often does):

The Democrats seem to be basically nicer people, but they have demonstrated time and again that they have the management skills of celery. They're the kind of people who'd stop to help you change a flat, but would somehow manage to set your car on fire. I would be reluctant to entrust them with a Cuisinart, let alone the economy. The Republicans, on the other hand, would know how to fix your tire, but they wouldn't bother to stop because they'd want to be on time for Ugly Pants Night at the country club.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:11 PM

I, for one, hope the right-wing extra-conservative Republicans stick to their guns...ummmm...principles, and continue to tout a policy of negativity and to chant silly slogans and be obstructionist in Congress. They will have their base, and always get some votes, and elect a few folks from certain districts, but many people are a bit more pragmatic about what the country needs and who can supply it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:29 PM

*tsk*, Peter...Dave Barry's stock in trade IS 'silly overstatement' for the sake of humor.
In this case he badly characterizes BOTH parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

The leader of the Republican party said good riddence regarding THe Senator from Penn. becoming a Democrat. Rush added that they need to get rid of Brownback too.



the talk about Spector included remarks like he virtually gave the GOP the finger (it got very rude and crude after that.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Midchuck
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:49 PM

*tsk*, Peter...Dave Barry's stock in trade IS 'silly overstatement' for the sake of humor.
In this case he badly characterizes BOTH parties.


Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think he nailed it on both sides. I honestly wonder whether there is such a thing as "silly overstatement" when you're talking about these two packs of fools.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 06:31 PM

Dave Barry made some really gross generalisations there. Do we really want to use tire changing and Cuisinart wielding as miens testing for our lawmakers? Don't answer that...it's rhetorical.

I am delighted that Spector has crossed-over...he has seemed more Democrat in the past few years anyway. BillD, I hope the GOP keeps on, too...it just keeps imploding and that's fine with me, for now.:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 07:42 PM

It'd be worth looking to see who was on the Warren commission with him. It's all coming together now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:01 PM

Which one are we? The Judean People's Front of the People's Front of Judea?

Yes the unwealthy Republicans who always voted in behalf of the wealthy are now confused....they don't know if they are

NTA OR ANT

The National Teabaggers of America
or the American National Teabaggers?

Are we the 9-twelvers or the 9-one two ers

PS
Sarah Plain wants to know if dogs can get Swine flu


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 10:13 PM

"...nailed it on both counts."

Mercy...is there anyone you DO like, Peter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 08:53 AM

Mercy...is there anyone you DO like, Peter?

Yup. People whose politics are just to the right of center, with libertarian (lower-case "L" intentional) overtones. Like myself.

The trouble is, that neither major party wants anything to do with us.

And by shutting us out, the national Republican party is cutting its own throat - and the throat of the Democrats as well, because without the Republicans as a serious threat to unite against, they'll break up into squabbling factions - that's what Democrats DO - but that'll take longer.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM

"Yes the unwealthy Republicans who always voted in behalf of the wealthy are now confused...."


                   They're confused because they allowed themselves to become addicted to the ancient superstition of Christianity and the ones who are waking up now are going through withdrawal


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:18 AM

The Republican Party is not just the party of NO.

Just yesterday they helped confirm Sibelius director of Health and Human Services...well... it did take a pandemic for them to do so, but they finally said yes.



From all that is written, Peter must like Ron Paul


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:45 AM

... and the Republicans were embarrassed by all the news re-playing footage showing their previous opposition to the funding of flu pandemic preparedness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 10:34 AM

"I find it interesting that it was back in the 1970s that the swine flu broke out then under another Democrat president Jimmy Carter. And I'm not blaming this on President Obama, I just think it's an interesting coincidence."
-- Rep. Michelle Bachmann. In fact, Gerald Ford was president during the last outbreak of the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:34 AM

Michelle can take incorrect facts and construct the most amazingly creative nonsense from them better than almost anyone today.
She is a living testament to the logical principle: "From false premises, anything follows."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:36 AM

Jaysus, would someone PLEASE shove a sock in this woman's mouth......


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:17 PM

People are tuning in to CSPAN just to watch Michelle Bachmann come up with more inane statements. It's like a new reality show, the Bachmann Surreal Life show.


Michelle Bachmann, "Is there any industry that thinks, once the government gets its fingers at the level where it approves your business plan and then backs up the warranty of your product and decides what your product will be and who the purchasers of your product will be, that the government will ever get out of the car business? At that point, what are we going to have left to buy--pogo sticks?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:20 PM

Continuing the analogy of reality shows, Senator Snowe (R) feels like she is on Survivor.

(CNN) - Maine Sen. Olympia Snowe called fellow colleague Sen. Arlen Specter's party defection disconcerting Wednesday, and likened moderate Republicans to participants on a reality television show known for isolating its members and picking them off one-by-one.

"Being a Republican moderate sometimes feels like being a cast member of "Survivor" — you are presented with multiple challenges, and you often get the distinct feeling that you're no longer welcome in the tribe," Snowe wrote in an op-ed for the New York Times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 07:04 PM

"Gerald Ford was president during the last outbreak of the virus..."

                   Which is why he fell down the gang-plank getting off of the airplane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:53 PM

Michelle Bachmann syndrome has rubbed off onto another Republican congresswoman, Virginia Foxx - quote from today....

Regarding the murder of Matthew Shepard, Virginia Foxx (R) North Carolina, "... a young man was killed... but it's really a hoax".
She said this with Matthew Shepard's mother present. She was claiming that the murder was just part of a robbery, not a hate crime because Matthew was gay.


------------------
During the trial, Chastity Pasley and Kristen Price (the pair's then-girlfriends) testified under oath that Henderson and McKinney both plotted beforehand to rob a gay man. McKinney and Henderson then went to the Fireside Lounge and selected Shepard as their target. McKinney alleged that Shepard asked them for a ride home. After befriending him, they took him to a remote area of Laramie where they robbed him, beat him severely (media reports often contained the graphic account of the pistol whipping and his smashed skull), and tied him to a fence with a rope from McKinney's truck. Shepard begged for his life. Both girlfriends also testified that neither McKinney nor Henderson was under the influence of drugs at the time. The beating was so severe that the only areas on Shepard's face that were not covered in blood were those where his tears had washed the blood stains away.
---------------------- from Wiki


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:59 PM

video of Virginia Foxx ...it's really a hoax


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 10:39 PM

This is just the sort of person that needs to stand up and declare their support for Dick Cheney's party...



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 10:54 PM

...and there is no global warming, and the Holocaust was a hoax, and you really COULD trust Dick Nixon, and the check IS in the mail....

I repeat, this is what is MEANT by the philosophical principle.. "From false premises, anything follows"

This is not just a dry, obscure bit of logic....it is a very serious explanation of some of the most egregious errors of human history. When used by a couple of silly members of Congress, it provides us a few laughs...when used by malevolent wielders of power, it leads to horrors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:23 PM

Even the WSJ is starting to realize what's going on.

Sen. DeMint (R-SC) was quoted as saying yesterday: "I would rather have 30 Republicans in the Senate who really believe in principles of limited government, free markets, free people, than to have 60 who don't have a set of beliefs."

WSJ response: "We believe in all those things, but 30 Senate votes merely gets you the same fate as the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, without the glory" .

Actually, anybody who supports Obama should fervently hope for the triumph of DeMint's view in the Republican party.   Let DeMint purge all but the true believers. Obama will take all the rest. And we'll see whose program is passed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:24 PM

Despite this bubble-brained idiocy, it is fair, I think, to say that the Republican party is NOT dead, merely gobsmacked by a counterwave of liberal sentiment and higher instinct.

One reason it will come back is the cyclical rise and fall of Intel ops in the CIA and FBI. During times like these, when the nation is seeking its best nature, there is a back lash against any adventurous Intel ops, especially counter-terrorism.

This happened time and time again when overly aggressive intelligence activities precipitated scandals. It's a repeating pattern from the days of Wild Bill Donovan on. Conequence is, those seeking to make their careers in intelligence work look for safer ventures like investigating bank robberies, rather than pursuing terrorist cells in murky waters (pardon the mixed metaphor).

However a counter-cycle will occur, at some point, when the need for international hard intell against possible enemies raises its head, and the hard-nosed side of our natures will again be called forward. At that time, it is a safe bet the Republicans will enjoy a resurgence. At a guess, I would say 2015.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:32 PM

If the pendulum doesn't swing back til 2015, Obama can get a lot done before then.   Much of which will be hard to undo, since by then people will be quite used to the new circumstances and programs--unwilling to give up the better medical care, for instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 12:52 AM

I think Ron is right. Obama is like nothing we've ever had before; our country is changing in profound and, I believe, long-term ways. There is no going back and the future is definitely going to be different and better.

Alice, thanks for the link. Keith showed it on Countdown tonight and also pointed out that the bastards left Shephard hanging there for 18 hours. I was heavily involved in the human rights movement in WY at the time, working very hard on a hate crimes bill. To hear a lawmaker of our country denigrate us all by calling it a hoax is despicable. Foxx should apologise to Matthew's mother and then resign, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 09:35 AM

"Karl Rove insists that Obama is a more polarizing president than George W. Bush, pointing to yawning approval gap between Democrats and Republicans. Nobody knows how to wield a wedge like Rove, but he's wrong on this one.

The gap is there because the Republican Party has shrunk to a raisin of its former self, baking in the sun of the old Confederacy. A mere 21 percent of people called themselves Republicans in a Washington Post poll. The vast majority of the country – Democrats and independents – are with Obama, given his high marks by both groups.

Rove's side was not exactly in hiding. Their ideas were well-known, tried and "rejected by the American people in an historic election," Obama said Wednesday.

Those who speak for what is left of the Republican Party diminish their ranks every time they do. On Rove's advice, they killed stimulus money for fighting pandemics like swine flu. They still follow the post-bunker missives of Dick Cheney, who has as much credibility on competent governing as the Octomom has on birth control.

And now there is the exquisite irony that nearly half the Republicans in the only big state left in the Party of Lincoln – Texas – say they favor seceding from the Union. So much for America first.

No doubt, 38 percent of Americans are still conservative, as they've been for the last 20 years. But a good portion of them are no longer Republican.

They are parked, for now, in a lane of open-mindedness, along with the 75 percent of Americans who see Obama as a "strong leader." If their president also happens to be a liberal, they don't care – so long as he succeeds." NYT


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 10:06 AM

What confuses me here is that the liberal members of this forum (obviously the vast majority) seem to be GLAD that the Republican party has shrunk so greatly, as a result of the leadership actively purging all of the moderate conservatives and libertarians.

Do you WANT a one-party nation? Have you observed how well that works in other countries?

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 10:14 AM

I don't want one party, Peter.
I try to examine all the political candidates and the issues in an independent way.

I wish that the Republicans would bring their most educated and rational people to the top as candidates. It seems like more and more anti-science people like Bachmann and Palin are becoming the most popular type of politician in the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 10:23 AM

What I am glad to see shrink is not the party of rational, analytical conservative thought, but the party of Rovian dirty tricks, media-braying contests, and the win-at-all-costs rejection of dialogue which has typified so much of the RP's history over the last many decades.

They used dirty tricks, many of which we never found out about, but what was really tiresome is their endless use of cheap rhetorical devices, pushbuttons, yelling codewords. illogic compensated for by sheer amplitude, and pugnacious disdain for human thought.

I am glad to see the party of Ann Coulter and Dick Cheney shrink. If the party of Walter Lippman and William Buckley wishes to have a rebirth to take its place, I am all for it. I am just sick of being battered with distortion as a mode of public communication, and handed fugues of hatred and fear as substitutes for reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 11:29 AM

I, also, do not want to see a one-party nation. I simply do not want to see the grim ultra-conservatives who are populating what is left of the Republican part have national influence. Let them do as DeMint says, hunker down in their conservative districts and espouse their 'beliefs', but do NOT let a Bush-puppet controlled by a Rove gain control of any important institutions.

Wasn't it a Peanuts comic strip once where Charlie Brown was told, "You are not unimportant...you can still serve as a bad example."?

I am old enough to remember Eisenhower and Rockefeller and various other Republican leaders who, though I disagreed with some of the details of their policies, I was not afraid of them.

The Democrats want you to agree with them, if possible...and to listen and trust them to try to do a decent job.
   The Republican we are really worried about want you to do what they say, whether you agree with them or not. They want to define what is good, evil, not allowed and relevant...according, in many cases, to specific religious principles not representative of millions of others.

I am sure 'the pendulum will swing back' someday, but I hope it will not be like the one in the "pit".


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 10:11 PM

Frankly, I don't see any way out of this for the Republican Party. I think Eisenhower was the best president of my lifetime, but there's nobody out there like him.

                A new party is the answer; party totally against continued human population growth. The illegal immigration debate will end the Republican Party, just like slavery ended the Whigs, and something new, forward looking, and rational will take its place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Alice
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 10:27 PM

The party has been hijacked by Rush Limbaugh.
Eisenhower must be spinning in his grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 11:08 PM

Remember, Eisenhower was courted by BOTH parties. He was first & foremost, a leader. We need more like that on both sides. In a country like the US purports to be, there should not be a 'huge' divide, and bi-partisanship should be real & common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 11:30 PM

Re: one party nation: I'm a registered Republican--not that I ever voted for GWB.--or Reagan. I had the idea, several eons ago, that if there were enough moderate to liberal Republican voters--as there were, once upon a time, in this area--we could influence the party enough so that if either a Republican or Democrat got in, it would be OK.   This stance has been proven hopelessly naive.

It is painfully obvious that the DeMint-style insistence on ideological purity has carried the day in the Republican party, after GWB et al. had already trashed it beyond belief. As Bill D points out, if there were an Ike-style leader in charge, it would be an acceptable alternative to a Democrat. Since there is not, the Republican party as it has developed recently deserves every bit of its electoral humiliation. And more.   Which may be coming.

Not that Democrats should be cocky. Maintaining the "big tent" is not easy in practical politics--the art of actually getting something done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 09 - 01:31 AM

Ron: It's my understanding that Arlen Specter is looking for friends about now. Why don't you drop him a line? :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:33 AM

Looking for friends? He jut found out who they were!!!



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 09 - 08:51 AM

Doug,

It's just possible that Sen DeMint, your good self, and others who insist on ideological purity, may be the ones looking for friends soon--and not finding many.

But there is the "I'd rather be right than president" tradition---and many on all sides of the political spectrum have indeed had that experience.

There's nothing wrong with principles, of course. The problem is that the guiding principle of the current Republican party seems to be selfishness.   Sorry, I can't sign on. Perhaps you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 May 09 - 09:01 AM

And yes, Specter is indeed looking out for his own self-interest. But in my view it turns out that his self-interest is more in tune with the common weal than is the view of Jim DeMint and others of his brand of "purity".   Sometimes you can in fact "do well by doing good". And this appears to be the situation of Sen. Specter.

Although it was also the case for "The Old Dope Peddler", I realize.

But please, Doug, keep opposing "amnesty" and Obama.   It puts you squarely on the wrong side of demographics--and history. And that makes things much easier for the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 01 May 09 - 10:02 AM

FOX and thier publications has lost nealy 30% of market share in certain areas.

Despite a constant campaign to join hands, teabags and guns in hating Obama , Dick Morris is now reduced to expalining (opps I mean explaining) why people are afraid to hate Obama as well as they should.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 09 - 10:36 AM

...the guiding principle of the current Republican party seems to be selfishness.   Sorry, I can't sign on. Perhaps you can.

PERHAPS ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 09 - 11:53 AM

"For Republicans this (Specters shift of parties) was demoralization piled on top of demoralization. Many Republicans I speak to are apathetic about their own party unless they are paid to care. It's like how you feel about your favorite team at the end of a losing season. They're still your team. You just don't care about them. (I am male — must use sports metaphors.)

My own view is that Republicans will have to lose three presidential elections to regain their dominance. That's how long it took the British Conservatives. There's almost zero sign of rethinking so far.

In the meantime, I do have to salute Specter's deft ability to survive. I thought he was cooked. He would have lost the G.O.P. primary. I've been told he no longer has the physical stamina to run two tough campaigns — primary and general. I figured he couldn't get the Democratic nomination, because Democrats do after all prefer to vote for Democrats. And it's tough to run as an Independent...."

(NYT columnist and Republican David Brooks)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:57 AM

Commentary: Stop throwing dirt on GOP 'grave'

By Ed Rollins
CNN Contributor

   
Editor's note: Ed Rollins, a senior political contributor for CNN, is Senior Presidential Fellow at the Kalikow Center for the Study of the American Presidency at Hofstra University. He was White House political director for President Reagan and chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee.


Ed Rollins says the Republican Party has bounced back from defeat before and will do so again.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- My message to the national media and political pundits on their premature obits on the Republican Party: Quit throwing dirt on our graves!

We may be feeble, but we are not dead and to paraphrase a quote from the Terminator: We'll be back.

Being older than dirt myself, I have a perspective others might not have. I have been amazed recently at all the stories in the media regarding the perceived end of the Republican Party. It might be wishful thinking on some of their parts. This week's Time magazine cover story titled "Endangered Species" is the epitome.

The defection of Sen. Arlen Specter to the Democrats after polls showed he would lose badly in a Republican primary, and the rocky start of new Republican National Chairman Michael Steele has created a feeding frenzy.

Ironically in 2001, after Sen. Jim Jeffords switched to the Democrats, Sen. Spector wanted a rule change that wouldn't allow senators to change their parties between elections. And how many of you can name the last four Republican Party chairmen? Or Democratic Party chairmen for that matter.

Another debate heated up over the weekend when former Vice President Dick Cheney commented on former Secretary of State Colin Powell's Republican credentials on "Face the Nation." Cheney said he thought "Colin had already left the party." He also said he thought Powell's endorsement of Barack Obama was "some indication of his loyalty and his interests."

Obviously Cheney took the Obama endorsement as a betrayal by a man he recommended to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and whose nomination as Secretary of State he certainly had to approve in his role as vice president. But neither Cheney nor Powell are the future of the Republican Party, so the debate is no longer relevant.

As bleak as things might seem today for Republicans, I have to put things into context.

I became a Republican in the summer of 1972. I was involved in running President Nixon's re -election campaign in California and became part of his administration at the start of his second term.

In very short order after my arrival in Washington in January 1973, the Nixon administration came apart at the seams with a daily soap opera of criminal charges, congressional hearings, federal indictments and the resignation of Vice President Spiro Agnew for bribe taking, followed 10 months later by the resignation of Richard Nixon who was about to be impeached by the Congress.

I was demoralized and ashamed of the leaders of my new party. But I wasn't going to quit because I still believed in the principles of strong national defense and smaller government, and in the idea that working people should do better than those who don't.

In the aftermath of all this, Republicans got slaughtered in the midterm elections of 1974, losing 48 House seats and five Senate seats. Republicans had only 144 House members in the 94th Congress.

Two years later, Jimmy Carter was elected president and I was convinced Republicans would be in the wilderness the rest of my political life. After the first 100 days, President Carter's approval rating was 69 percent -- higher than President Obama's.

And four years after that I was working in the White House as an assistant to President Ronald Reagan -- who defeated Carter by a landslide and won a Senate majority and a philosophical majority in the House. For 20 of the next 28 years, a Republican was in the White House.

In spite of losing five of those seven presidential elections, hardly anybody was saying the Democrats must move to the right. No, they nominated Mondale, Dukakis, Gore and Kerry -- all liberals and two of them "Massachusetts liberals."

more


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:21 AM

Seems strengthening national defense by definition calls for a larger government. ANyone noticed the expansion of the DoD under Bush 1 and Bush 2? But holding two contradictory ideas in mind at once is their specialty.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:50 AM

"... My theme is the intellectual decline of conservatism, and it is notable that the policies of the new conservatism are powered largely by emotion and religion and have for the most part weak intellectual groundings. That the policies are weak in conception, have largely failed in execution, and are political flops is therefore unsurprising. The major blows to conservatism, culminating in the election and programs of Obama, have been fourfold: the failure of military force to achieve U.S. foreign policy objectives; the inanity of trying to substitute will for intellect, as in the denial of global warming, the use of religious criteria in the selection of public officials, the neglect of management and expertise in government; a continued preoccupation with abortion; and fiscal incontinence in the form of massive budget deficits, the Medicare drug plan, excessive foreign borrowing, and asset-price inflation.

By the fall of 2008, the face of the Republican Party had become Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber. Conservative intellectuals had no party.

And then came the financial crash last September and the ensuing depression. These unanticipated and shocking events have exposed significant analytical weaknesses in core beliefs of conservative economists concerning the business cycle and the macroeconomy generally. Friedmanite monetarism and the efficient-market theory of finance have taken some sharp hits, and there is renewed respect for the macroeconomic thought of John Maynard Kenyes, a conservatives' bête noire.

There are signs and portents of liberal excess in the policies and plans of the new administration. There will thus be plenty of targets for informed conservative critique. At this writing, however, the conservative movement is at its lowest ebb since 1964. But with this cardinal difference: the movement has so far succeeded in shifting the center of American politics and social thought that it can rest, for at least a little while, on its laurels...."

Richard Posner, in this Blog post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:31 PM

I really don't think it comes down to archaic terms such as "liberal" or "conservative"... These aren't really brands anymore but PR buzz words...

Liberals these days believe in ficsal responsibility and obeying international laws... Hey, those are conservative ideas???

Conservatives have been silent during the Bush 8 year spending spreeand his nation building (i.e. wars)... Weren't that what liberal used to be accused of???

I mean, what we have are two fraternities... Each is willing to cast aside any position that is not the "in" position with various constituencies??? Yeah, poll driven politics...

There are no chizzeled-in-stone posotion of either what used to be called liberals or conservatives...

This is where the Republican Party has become it's own worst enemy because it continues to use archaic words in a modern word... Other than a very small minority of folks who still bite on that bait, most folks have simply moved on...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 09 - 06:50 PM

THE ROVE MEMO

Blame the Democrats for torture. We can pull a Martha Stewart on Nancy Pelosi and send her to jail. What did she know and when did she know it. Use Watergate terminology and other familiar accusations. We can go after Eric Holder AG for knowing about torture and rendition back in the Clinton administration. Keep the domocrats on the defensive and we may just stay out of the spot light.

Keep Cheney out there every week to taint the jury pool of public opinion and tie it tightly to social and religious values and the reason we have not been attacked. Get his daughter holding a baby to give it more family value impact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:21 PM

Surprise Reprise


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 09 - 08:02 AM

Or we could just shift the debate to something more compelling and helpful, and quit shooting ourselves in the foot by doing dumb things like releasing more photographs from Abu Ghraib.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Paul Krugman, Nobel prize winning writer for the NYTimes, writes:

"..."This bill is the most important legislation for financial institutions in the last 50 years. It provides a long-term solution for troubled thrift institutions. ... All in all, I think we hit the jackpot." So declared Ronald Reagan in 1982, as he signed the


He was, as it happened, wrong about solving the problems of the thrifts. On the contrary, the bill turned the modest-sized troubles of savings-and-loan institutions into an utter catastrophe. But he was right about the legislation's significance. And as for that jackpot — well, it finally came more than 25 years later, in the form of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.

For the more one looks into the origins of the current disaster, the clearer it becomes that the key wrong turn — the turn that made crisis inevitable — took place in the early 1980s, during the Reagan years.

Attacks on Reaganomics usually focus on rising inequality and fiscal irresponsibility. Indeed, Reagan ushered in an era in which a small minority grew vastly rich, while working families saw only meager gains. He also broke with longstanding rules of fiscal prudence.

On the latter point: traditionally, the U.S. government ran significant budget deficits only in times of war or economic emergency. Federal debt as a percentage of G.D.P. fell steadily from the end of World War II until 1980. But indebtedness began rising under Reagan; it fell again in the Clinton years, but resumed its rise under the Bush administration, leaving us ill prepared for the emergency now upon us.

The increase in public debt was, however, dwarfed by the rise in private debt, made possible by financial deregulation. The change in America's financial rules was Reagan's biggest legacy. And it's the gift that keeps on taking.

The immediate effect of Garn-St. Germain, as I said, was to turn the thrifts from a problem into a catastrophe. The S.& L. crisis has been written out of the Reagan hagiography, but the fact is that deregulation in effect gave the industry — whose deposits were federally insured — a license to gamble with taxpayers' money, at best, or simply to loot it, at worst. By the time the government closed the books on the affair, taxpayers had lost $130 billion, back when that was a lot of money.

But there was also a longer-term effect. Reagan-era legislative changes essentially ended New Deal restrictions on mortgage lending — restrictions that, in particular, limited the ability of families to buy homes without putting a significant amount of money down.

These restrictions were put in place in the 1930s by political leaders who had just experienced a terrible financial crisis, and were trying to prevent another. But by 1980 the memory of the Depression had faded. Government, declared Reagan, is the problem, not the solution; the magic of the marketplace must be set free. And so the precautionary rules were scrapped.

Together with looser lending standards for other kinds of consumer credit, this led to a radical change in American behavior.

We weren't always a nation of big debts and low savings: in the 1970s Americans saved almost 10 percent of their income, slightly more than in the 1960s. It was only after the Reagan deregulation that thrift gradually disappeared from the American way of life, culminating in the near-zero savings rate that prevailed on the eve of the great crisis. Household debt was only 60 percent of income when Reagan took office, about the same as it was during the Kennedy administration. By 2007 it was up to 119 percent.

All this, we were assured, was a good thing: sure, Americans were piling up debt, and they weren't putting aside any of their income, but their finances looked fine once you took into account the rising values of their houses and their stock portfolios. Oops.

Now, the proximate causes of today's economic crisis lie in events that took place long after Reagan left office — in the global savings glut created by surpluses in China and elsewhere, and in the giant housing bubble that savings glut helped inflate.

But it was the explosion of debt over the previous quarter-century that made the U.S. economy so vulnerable. Overstretched borrowers were bound to start defaulting in large numbers once the housing bubble burst and unemployment began to rise. ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 04:20 PM

Some of us have been singing this song ever since Ronald Reagan submitted his first budget to Congress. We were ignored for almost 30 years.

                      I wonder what this will all mean for the legacy of Frederick Hayac, Milton Friedman, and all of the Austrian/University of Chicago School of Economics. Many of them got Nobel prizes as well. Pretty fickle organization, I'd say.

                      I always did like Paul Krugman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 04:27 PM

APologies for clipping that first paragraph. The act in question was the Garn-St. Germain bill which was the beachead in de-regulating financial organizations.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM

At least Ronald Reagan was right about something. It was the most important legislation passed in the last 50 years, and the most catastrophic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:03 AM

"You know, Dick Clarke. Dick Clarke, who was the head of the counterterrorism program in the run-up to 9/11. He obviously missed it."
-- Dick Cheney, on Richard Clarke

"Bin Ladin Public Profile May Presage Attack" (5/3/01)

"Bin Ladin's Networks' Plans Advancing" (5/26/01)

"Bin Ladin Attacks May Be Imminent" (6/23/01)

"Bin Ladin and Associates Making Near-Term Threats" (6/25/01)

"Bin Ladin Planning High-Profile Attacks" (6/30/01)

"Planning for Bin Ladin Attacks Continues, Despite Delays" (7/02/01)

-- subject lines of Richard Clarke emails to Bush Administration prior to 9/11/01


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:08 PM

I saw in the paper this morning that Tricky Dick Cheney has "come out" in favor of gay marrage. He says it should be up to the individual states to decide. Does that prove that the end of the world is here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

It proves that he doesn't think most individual states will go for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

It proves that he has respect for his own daughter, and that her life has taught him a lesson.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:23 PM

Okay, Amos. I would have gone for that as well if I thought Cheney had been the kind of father who had ever listened to his daughter. Maybe he did; nobody can be all bad all the time, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 01:51 AM

It's odd, but even though he appears like a Darth Vader, his family thinks of him as a brave and compassionate man.

Just goes to show...



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:35 AM

He's a skitzoid, Amos... You know, one thing to his family and quite another to the rest of the world...

Actually, the man is capable of drawing correct conclusions when it suits him... The problem is that it rarely suits him... His duaghter being gay is 100% about his stand on gay marriage... I doubt seriously if he would have concluded this without that being the fact...

But one thing is fir sure and that is him "coming out" (haha) in support of gay marriage is driving his base nuts and further fragmenting an allready fragmented Republican Party...

Plus, who knows... There may be some young male interns out there who know why Wesley S referes to Cheney as "Tricky Dick"???...

B


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:33 PM

"It's true. The birthers are, apparently, a horde of fringe Republican funbots who are attempting to prove that the president was not actually born in Honolulu to mixed-race parentage back in August of '61, but instead was really spawned in some sort of bizarre test-tube experiment in a secret underground bunker in the '20s, somewhere in Islamabad and is really a handsome, radical Muslim fundamentalist robot who just so happens to enjoy mom jeans and has a wicked jump shot. Or something.

What delightful times we live in. Is it not the sweetest thing ever, the fact that this whack-job of a story is all over the news cycle and Fox News is stroking itself raw with the cheesy tabloid glory of it all, and even the most stoic, surly GOP congressman is now finding himself in the odd position of defending the president's very existence, as he fights off the rabid idiocy of his own party's nutball fringe?

Really, just when you thought it couldn't get any better than Sarah Palin exiting the political stage with an incoherent rant about who-knows-what so she can go "write" a book and have a reality show developed about her ("Todd and Sarah Plus Live Bait"?), along comes the Next Big Thing in political cotton candy noise pollution.

I find I am only able to ask one thing: Who knew? Who knew, in the wake of all those madcap Christian fundamentalists who ruled like drunken virgins over the Dark Days of Bush, the right still had such a cavalcade of intellectual toddlers waiting in the wings to come out and play in the fields of Infantile Fantasyland, and further guarantee the party's merciful irrelevance for years to come?

Make no mistake: we on the liberal side of the fence have no shortage of radical sects and ridiculous extremism, but you never really find those groups dominating the dialogue in quite the same way. It's a vital and telling difference: The Party of Bush is now paying a very dear price indeed for all those years of kowtowing to its basest, least educated, most radical voting blocks. Live by the nutball base, die by the nutball base, eh, Newt? ..."

(From the pinko tree huggers up by SF Bay...)

Read more: here


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Penny S.
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM

Aren't there any sensible Republicans left who can have a few quiet words? I read about the birthers in the paper today, and my jaw could only not drop because it was already as low as it could go over a story about people over here of reduced understanding declaring that an examination based on religious material from the US South including references to the Loch Ness Monster as real, and the benefits of apartheid was equivalent to a Cambridge sourced A-level.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

Bill Maher remarks:

"For the last couple of weeks, we've all been laughing heartily at the wacky antics of the "birthers" -- the far-right goofballs who claim Barack Obama wasn't really born in Hawaii and therefore the job of president goes to the runner-up, former Miss California Carrie Prejean.



    * Discuss Bill Maher's 'birther' Op-Ed
      Discuss Bill Maher's 'birther' Op-Ed

Also, when Obama was sworn in as president, he forgot to give his answer in the form of a question.

And yet, every week, the chorus of conservatives demanding to see his birth certificate grows. It's like they're the Cambridge police, Obama's in his house -- the White House -- and they need to see some ID.

And there's nothing anyone can do to convince these folks. You could hand them, in person, the original birth certificate and have a video of Obama emerging from the womb with Don Ho singing in the background ... and they still wouldn't believe it.

Your Vote
Should the birthers' claim be taken seriously, even if it's not true?

Yes, it could cause trouble down the road.
No, it shouldn't be given more publicity.
Which raises the question: Why, in this country, is it always the religious right that won't take anything on faith?

So far, the reaction from Democrats is to laugh this off, and I understand why. If you seriously believe that President Obama is an African sleeper spy, get out of your chat room and have your house tested for lead.

But we live in America, and in America, if you don't immediately kill arrant nonsense, no matter how ridiculous, it can grow and thrive and eventually take over, like crab grass or reality shows about fat people.

This flap might be a deluded right-wing obsession that is a total waste of time, but so was Whitewater, and look where that ended up. A handful of Republican operatives, enraged at Bill Clinton's unprecedented economic growth and budget surpluses, found a woman named Paula Jones, which led to a woman named Monica Lewinsky, which gave me enough material to eventually be able to buy a big house in Bel-Air. Which I'm still conflicted about.

More recently we had the Swift Boat allegations against John Kerry, in which Kerry was accused of volunteering to serve in Vietnam so he could jump in front of a bullet so he could get a medal and then throw it away to satisfy his urge to insult real Americans. This was so stupid that Kerry refused to even discuss it.

And we all know how well that worked out.

And once these stories get out there, they're hard to stamp out because our media do such a lousy job of speaking truth to stupid. Vietnam, Iraq and the Spanish-American War were all sold on lies that were unchallenged or even abetted by the media. Clinton got impeached and Kerry got destroyed in large part because the media didn't have the guts to say, "This is nonsense."

Lou Dobbs has been saying recently that people are asking a lot of questions about the birth certificate. Yes, the same people who want to know where the sun goes at night.

And Lou, you're their new king.

That's why it's so important that we the few, the proud, the reality-based attack this stuff before it has a chance to fester and spread. This isn't a case of Democrats versus Republicans. It's sentient beings versus the lizard people, and it is to them I offer this deal: I'll show you Obama's birth certificate when you show me Sarah Palin's high school diploma."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:49 PM

Bobert,
Dr. Dean is on record of wanting to continue the Af-Pak
war because he thinks it will free women from the yoke of
slavery there. That's delusional.

The only drawback I see to the Repubs in hot water is the fact
that the Dems agenda is not clear cut on the economy, certainly not
on the erswhile "wars" and mixed messages about bailing out
recalcitrant corporations and if Obama doesn't get a public option
through on Healthcare, he is in trouble.

It's too early to sing a swan-song for the GOP.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:58 PM

Yeah, Frank, I can't find any fault with yer logic... I don't understand this 'endless wars" mentality that gets passed from one administration to the next... It is fu*kin' insane...

As for the Dems muddy position on the economy??? Hey, they aren't economists and even if they were, economists don't agree... But most say that if the consumer can't (or won't) spend then someone has to...

But I still see the Repubs as being guilty of not quitting digging when they find themselves in a hole... They are obsessed with satisfying Southern rednecks first and the rest of the country second... Problem is that the rest of the country ain't Southern rednecks... Until the Repubs figure this out, they will be a party on the way down... I don't know what rock bottom is for them but right now they are Hell-bent on trying to find it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 12:01 PM

Aren't there any sensible Republicans left...?

Obviously, damn few.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 03:49 PM

Here's a piece from the radio today about the birthers, who apparently would not be satisfied by anything less than a choir of angels validating the certificate, and the newspaper announcements at the time of his birth.

Unhappy Birthers to you

There's time travelling folks setting him up back then?

The rest of the programme is about health and something else - can't remember what, had to concentrate on the traffic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 05:16 PM

Swiftboating Town Halls



"With federal lawmakers returning home this week to begin their month-long recess, the far right is welcoming them with large, angry throngs at "town halls gone wild." "Screaming constituents, protesters dragged out by the cops [and] congressmen fearful for their safety" have marked the ugly scenes that have become the rule in recent days, as normally respectful meetings between representatives and their constituents have been inundated with right-wing protesters focused on killing health care reform. Over the weekend, Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) became one of the more widely publicized victims, when a mob of protesters chanting "just say no" to health care followed him out of an event. These encounters are being orchestrated by the same lobbyist-run groups -- Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks -- that brought together the tax day tea parties in April. While trying to give the appearance of a "grassroots" uprising, the demonstrations are cover for a corporate-lobbyist engineered harassment strategy that encourages participants to "yell," "stand up and shout," and "rattle" elected officials in favor of reforming health care. Their goal -- recently outlined by an influential lobbyist as "delay" then "kill" -- is apparent: Having successfully delayed a vote until after the August recess, lobbyists are seizing on town halls to ambush lawmakers in an attempt to fool them and the greater public into thinking there is wide opposition to health care reform. Yesterday, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs took a "hard line against the Tea-Party organized disruptions," labeling them a "Brooks Brothers Brigade," a reference to GOP staffers staging protests during the 2000 Florida recount.

THE MEMOS: As with the tea parties, these town halls are "lessons in how political interests enlist human and technological resources to build political pressure while those responsible remain safely behind the curtain." Last week, The Progress Report obtained a leaked memo from a volunteer with Tea Party Patriots, a website sponsored by Americans for Prosperity (AFP) (led by a former associate of Jack Abramoff) and FreedomWorks (led by former Republican Majority Leader and current lobbyist Dick Armey). The memo detailed how town hall goers should infiltrate meetings and harass Democratic members of Congress. The memo said activists should "stand up and shout out and sit right back down" so the representative is "made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington." The overall goal, said the memo, is to "rattle" the elected official. Earlier this week, a FreedomWorks volunteer, who doubles as a Tea Party protester, published another memo that outlined a strategy "for his fellow activists -- a playbook of sorts for protesters seeking to disrupt and harass members of Congress during town hall forums in their districts."...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM

These Patriot a$$holes makes me so proud to be a Amerkun I cud just shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:19 AM

The problem is that their hearts are int he right place, to a degree, but their ability to reason is limited and they are constantly being barraged by false information, a combination about as volatile as gasoline and short-circuited 110V circuits.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 09:47 PM

"Aren't there any sensible Republicans left...?"


               No! They're all defeated in the primaries. The same thing is starting to happen to Democrats. We really need a third party bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 02:16 PM

Cool new Republican website...

http://gop.am/fAGX


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 07:21 AM

Those were baboons!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

"the Democrats have to be for something as well as against Republican stupidity. "


More taxes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:02 PM

Bobert, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party need each other as a symbiotic
relationship for a dysfunctional government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:24 PM

"More taxes?"

Cute remarks like that is why I kinda gave up posting to this back in April.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: The Republican Party
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

No argument there, Strings... Yes, what good is a movie without the bad guys and the good guys... Seems that the Repubs have ridden BB's above noted bumper sticker philosohy, "More taxes", just about as far as that horse will go but rather than see that things have and are changin' they continue saddling that plug up over and over... Sure, it resonates with the folks who have the most to lose but with so much of the wealth having been extracted from the working class by Boss Hog & Co. that ol' horse is lookin' longer and longer in the tooth every election cycle...

But back to dysfunction... Yeah, the system is a serious conditiion because 90% of federally elected officials and almost as large a percentage of state assembly people are elected in "safe districts" meaning that these folks don't have to be all that concerned with compromise... Quite the contrary as the more poarized they are the better their chances of being re-elected??? Kinda a mess that has no easy answers becasue the only folks who can fix it are the people who stand to lose something (their jobs) if they do so???

B~


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