Catholic Priest clears his chest

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:27 PM

In todays Irish News it is reported 6 Special Branch Officers have been implicated by Police Ombudsman Nuala O`Loan in the cover-up of more than a dozen UVF murders.

The six Officers failed to act on evidence that linked senior UVF informer Mark Haddock, former RUC detective Johnston Brown also claimed that Special Branch prevented police charging Haddock with the murder of Sharon McKenna in 1993.

Johnston Brown was hounded out of the RUC for pursuing loyalist murderers, Brown said that Special Branch allowed Haddock to continue on his murder rampage, he added " if they allow this to happen, who else did they allow to die".
Brown has just published a book on his time in the RUC, this is an eye opener on the vast scale of collusion that went on in the Special Branch with their Loyalist murder machine.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Soldier Boy
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:40 PM

I have Googled Johnston Brown RUC and that man`s book will really blow the lid of the RUC and their Special Branch, all of the different leads are a story waiting to be told.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:44 PM

Ard,

It's been that way since before and after the McMahon murders. What bothers me is how the big shots in London did nothing about it or if they were not aware of the real situation then they have not been doing their job. You cannot govern a place unless you keep an eye on the place. I am sure they have known about these type of things all along but as usual did nothing about them, no bloody wonder the early protest marches were necessary.
Of course these latest stories will never make it to the front pages the way the McCartney murder did. But that's to be expected.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:20 PM

Have you noticed the Terminal silence ?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:53 PM

GUEST/Divi/Epona 27 Oct 05 - 02:42 PM

Do the super search as directed and explained by Wolfgang and you will find that I have only ever mentioned Balham in my posts to state that I had not got the vaguest clue as to its location.

Too technical for you??

Another classic example of what Wolfgang refers to as - "you are a victim of what is called 'source confusion', namely that you attribute something that was said about Teribus to him having said that."

That comes about because you are brainwashed and braindead to any sensible discussion that doesn't conform to your preconceived notions and beliefs. Very easy to understand because you are a pack of Lying Gits, you've got so used to it that it's a natural reflex, you couldn't tell the truth even if your rather pathetic lives depended on it.

Oh by the bye, A the 1st Ake, loved your post:
- I could feel the mists of history rolling back to reveal 'Bonny Scotland' as it once was.
- I could hear the bagpipes playing in the distance, swelling to the ultimate climax as the glories of A the 1st Ake's Scotland came into being

Abso-fuckin'-lutely hilarious

Teribus - a Scot and a Catholic

PS: One other exercise Divi revisit the statistics that Wolgang provided and contemplate that if your lot hadn't bothered how many more innocent Irish lives would have been saved and how better off the place would have been. Before 1969 how many observation towers were there? I can't remember there being any.

"You can boast of what you've done
But you're naught but murderin' scum
And you're actions prove it clearer every day."

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 08:29 PM

Oh dear Terminal you really are getting cross. I thought my days of giving your type the run around were long over. Listen I don't give a toss about that Balham remark,I don't understand it or want to. It's got nothing to do with me. And can you not do better than keep calling Wolfgang in to your lost arguments ? Do you think I have nothing better to do than go through your posts ? What I have read and seen on this thread says enough ! Terminal, you keep making remarks about me coming in as a guest to answer you, why would I want to do this ? If I have something worth saying I will put my name to it.So it's clear you are not going to bestowe professional courtesy on me as I would you.Now Terminal, calling me murderin' scum
is not very nice either.I am starting to think that you must think I was some form of a murdering terrorist ? No Terminal that's wrong. I never wore the Queens uniform.Now what about starting off again on a new footing and talk about the most successful guerilla army in the world. Now there's a subject that would interest me. I would love a history chat with you on that one !.Did you never feel a teenie weenie bit jealous of their ability to strike with such ease and accuracy ? Ah well your Generals Ford and Tuzo did. It's funny Terminal, we really are just both sides of the same coin I feel. We will both tell our grandchildren stories. But Terminal who will be telling the truth ? When in the North of Ireland did you ever run away Terminal, I didn't. Always good to hear from you. See I am really a very pleasant fellow when you get to know me.Please don't say we can't be friends.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:53 PM

According to Malcolm Sutton:

British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055
TOTAL 3523

The figures do not lie although we all know Divi does.

Now, I know that it is not as simple as this, but what the hell, just for arguements sake:

If I and my lot had not been in Northern Ireland 363 more people would be alive.

If the Loyalist Paramilitaries had not been around 1020 more people would be alive

But If Divi and his pals of whom he is so inordinately proud had not been around 2055 more people would be alive.

In fact it would have been a damn sight more than that as we would have considerably reduced the 'loyalist' tally.

DIVI - That is a FACT

Here are a few more:

DIVI quote, "If I have something worth saying I will put my name to it."

DIVI you are a liar I have proved it on this thread, you cannot wriggle out of that. Please remember that in anything you post on this forum in the future that is going to come back at you - You are a proven Liar.

DIVI quote, "..it's clear you are not going to bestowe professional courtesy on me as I would you." Now come along DIVI, when have you ever "bestowed any professional courtesy" towards me - Never.

Another DIVI quote, "Now Terminal, calling me murderin' scum
is not very nice either."

Unfortunately DIVI, ould son, the statistics provided by Malcolm Sutton seem to bear out my opinion of you and the organisation you seem to have chosen to defend - 2055 lives out of a total of 3525, and that does not take into account those injured and maimed for life. Things would have been a damn sight better had you stayed away by a factor of 60% - FACT.

The "most successful guerilla army in the world." offered/sought ceasefire after ceasefire.

The "most successful guerilla army in the world." has, thankfully and eventually, abandoned its weapons.

The "most successful guerilla army in the world." Never had any mandate from the people of Ireland to murder 2055 of its citizens.

At present there are 15,500 British Troops stationed in the North of Ireland, there are 8,500 British Troops stationed in Iraq.

DIVI quote, "Did you never feel a teenie weenie bit jealous of their ability to strike with such ease and accuracy ?"

Do you mean like when the much vaunted PIRA planted the 24 bombs in Belfast City Centre, timed to go off within 2 hours, then came out with the statement that they did not target civilians. The loss of life on that day came to 5 people, any idea who that was down to DIVI? I'll tell you, the RUC, the British Forces, and members of Northern Ireland's Emergency Services. It certainly had fuck all to do with the Provisional IRA, who were hoping for a far larger score.

DIVI when it comes to telling the truth to our grand-children I will be able state with clear and verifiable conviction that I was there to save life. It will be clearly demonstrable that you, and the organisation that you were a proud member of, were there to take it - to the extent of 2055 lives to be exact.

DIVI quote, "When in the North of Ireland did you ever run away Terminal, I didn't."

Oh DIVI, the PIRA always ran, normally after killing innocent civilians. The preferred method of the PIRA being by indiscriminate bomb. The number of times the PIRA did hang around to fight they came off decidedly second best. And while boasting of your war, the PIRA trotted off to Brussels to complain about a "Shoot-to-kill" policy - what policy did your side employ, no need to answer DIVI the 2055 versus 363 over the period speaks volumes.

I dare say that you are very pleasant, personable, entertaining and likeable in the normal course of things. But please do not try to justify 2055 lives lost directly at the hands of the organisation you so vehmently defend and expect me to agree with your point of view, because, put very smply, I won't. You and your fellow volunteers murdered 2055 of your own countrymen, don't ever boast about that in my company and try to tell me what the PIRA did and what they achieved by THEIR sacrifice. I am all for the way Stan Rogers told it in House of Orange what ever you wanted was there for the taking without the loss of 3525 lives.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:03 PM

Teribus,

Do you know the breakdown of the 2055 lives that you've quoted as being taken by the PIRA? Were they civilian? British troops, RUC, political targets? It's an honest question and I would be very interested to know. Thanks.

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:11 PM

And let me amend my above statement slightly...Of the 2055 deaths attributed to "Republican paramilitaries", how many of those were at the hands of PIRA? That would be another good answer to have. Looking forward to hearing the numbers in the morning, Teri!

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:21 PM

Epona, the Sutton Statistics are as available to you as they are to me. Wolfgang has provided the link, you do not need me to furnish the information you require. Do it yourself

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Clint
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:15 AM

Still Teribus you spray out the same old statistics. But you still dodge answering the question put to you by myself and I note many other people regarding your remark about the BUILDERS YARD IN BALHAM. Teribus I clearly remember you saying it. Can't remember the thread. You were going on about Scotchmen to Ralph. I pm'd Ralph but he is no longer a member. Look I am not a Republican, Nationalist or IRA man, I am Englisg and live in Clapton Hackney. So before you go on and on as you do will you please explain why you wish to avoid this point

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:39 AM

My sincere apologies Guest Clint for my delay in clarifying your point relating to the builders yard in Balham.

I have made NO remark about, or reference to, a builders yard in Balham, apart from having previously stated that I did:

A. Not know where Balham was.

AND

B. Had no knowledge of any 'builders yard' in Balham.

I also have not got a clue who 'Ralph' is.

I do hope that that answers any questions you have relating to the matter. If not please follow the directions given by Wolfgang and conduct a super search of my posts inputing 'builders yard Balham'

Please revert with result of your research, if however, you do not, I will take it that, apart from what I have stated above, you have found no reference to me ever having mentioned Balham, or a builders yard in Balham in any other post. In which case your question will have been fully answered.

Failing that a thread could be started either on:
- Balham, or
- On things people on this forum were supposed to have said when in actual fact they didn't.

Epona,

To answer your question, in my mail the following statistics were given (Source Malcolm Sutton):

British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055
TOTAL 3523

Further down the post I refer to - "Divi and his pals", and mention the 2055 figure. I think it would be perfectly clear to anybody that "Divi and his pals" relates to Republican Paramilitaries, I've never heard the man argue any other cause. Nice attempt to nit-pick but it doesn't alter the thrust of the arguement, or the veracity of my contention in the slightest.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:43 AM

Johnston Brown had to have his book published in the Dublin by Gill and MacMillan, no publisher in the north of Ireland would chance having the British Government send their vultures in to confiscate the evidence.

In the Dail yesterday Pat Rabbitte TD named Mark Haddock and John Bond as the men responsible for Raymond McCord Junior`s murder.

McCord`s father welcomed TD Rabbitte`s exposure of the two UVF killers, he said," This is only the beginning. The UVF has been controlled by the Special Branch from the 1970s, the Police knew about hundreds of murders before any triggers were pulled".

A Police Ombudsman report on the murder of Raymond McCord Junior is to be published next month. It is expected to recommend prosuctions against six Special Branch Officers who ran UVF members in north and west Belfast.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 05:55 AM

Teribus At least your reply to me was reasonably civil.You have no idea what it was like to grow up in the North throughout the 1960's. I was young and could not understand the names I was being called or why my family were being treated as second class.We saw Civil Rights being demanded in America and drew a parallel. Young people took to the streets and demanded equality. They were battered of the streets. Because Nationalists had found their voice they became trouble makers. From the top level of North of Ireland government it was decided to put down the desired wish of Nationalists to be treated as equal.As to Rodgers remark in that Orange Hall, my ass would we have got it, Christ they are still trying to put us down today.The Civil Rights movement were hammered into the ground by the police as your government stood by, example Burntollet Bridge 1968. Catholics were being burned out of their homes, example Bombay street. Even the IRA in Dublin were reluctant to act. So in 1969 the people in the North found it's own defence, The Provisional IRA. I fully accept your dislike of them, but Teribus just for a moment imagine that you were knocking about in 1940 and the Germans landed on your street and battered the crap out of you. If you said to me you would stand back and not get involved, I would call you that word you set at my door in very post LIAR.Do you give Wolfgang a hard time over those killed in the blitz ? Why not ? His war like my own is over.You refer to the Continuity IRA. I have a number of times made it clear I have no support for them. I support my party leadership in Sinn Fein to get Irish re-unification by peaceful means.Do you want me to throw up all the illegal actions of the British Army whilst in my country ? Why do you keep going down this road ? The leadership on more than one occasion has expressed regret at the loss of life of non-combatants, has the British Army ? Teribus I did not get the chance to fill in a tick box when I was born as to which faith I would like.I was born a Catholic and through the actions against of a uniionist government became a Republican.Again I repeat all loss of life is regrettable, but I do not and will not ever say our armed struggle was wrong. Regarding your remark about bestowment of professional courtesy, I never underestimated the British Army.Regarding troop numbers here they never come out of their barracks, it's just another overseas posting.I remain proud of all our Volunteers and the sacrifice they made either by their life of the time spent in prison.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:07 AM

Soon off for another busy day...Would love to take you up on your offer, Teri, and "do it" myself, and maybe if I can get some peace this weekend I will do some research on my own. But, with such a vast amount of knowledge available through my fellow mudcatters, maybe I won't have to! :)

Teri has been extraordinarily kind to use some figures Wolfgang provided, one of the figures being 2055 deaths in the North attributed to "Republican paramilitaries." And, if anyone can help me with my questions, I would be very thankful.

1. What groups make up the "Republican paramilitaries"?
2. Assuming that the PIRA is one of those, how many deaths are they held accountable for out of the 2055?
3. Of those deaths attributed to the PIRA, how many were:
    a. loyalist paramilitaries
    b. British troops
    c. RUC
    d. political targets
    e. civilians

Any help or answers would be really appreciated...and hopefully I'll be able to check into this myself tomorrow!

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 10:56 AM

I seem to keep attracting this evil virus on this computer, what on earth is it?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 12:37 PM

It's called flamenco ted, We all get it from time to time.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Clint
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:00 PM

Dear Teribus
Thanks for taking the time to explain this, clearly it wasn't you. There is no doubt about that.Please accept my apology. I went through the Threads but could not find it, your word is enough for me.So sorry to see the above back here, F.T. truely is a virus.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Fiolaris
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:20 PM

Teribus you sure do bounce around alot don't you? I was born and raised in Ulster. So, don't get your knickers in a twist. No one says the states don't have problems. Just as I imagine S. Africa still does. But, Teribus they are dealing with their problems. As is N. Ireland now. You have a problem with that? One time you say your against the likes of Rev. Ian and loyalists next your defending their apartheid and pogrom. I seem to think you must have been hand picked for a guest book propaganda mill. You remind me of the Oakland, California loyalist wannabe who moved to Derry a year or so ago. He too rambled on like yourself. I say again, peace is at hand Teribus. Whether you or even the old blowhards along with you here likes it or not. Peace is coming. And along with it equality for all. Not just Catholics, but for everyone. I know it's hard for you and the bigots to accept, but it will happen just the same. You have a problem with peace Teribus? Do you have a problem with equality? Or do you join the others here and want the status quo to remain? Do you have an opinion on anything, or do you have to wait for Wolfgang to feed you his latest propaganda? Till him to review his own history before looking into others.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 01:42 PM

I remember in my time in Ulster the I.R.A. shot a horse in the ass. The story was in the papers. Made a bigger deal out of it than if it had been a human.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:48 PM

Ard Great post. If you get more on this please keep us informed. Also anything on collusion we don't tend to hear much about it here in Canada. Best wishes Tommy

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 04:58 PM

Tommy just Google Johnston Brown RUC for futher reading.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 05:46 PM

Thanks ard mhacha

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 07:18 PM

Oh, Gloria...I remember hearing about that. Poor horse.

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:01 PM

Ard got a lot of stuff there thanks. Now time to educate Canada !Best wishes Tommy.Time to brush up !

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:13 PM

Calling Teribus, Calling Teribus

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:25 PM

Good luck Tommy!

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 12:45 AM

Tommy.

Are you from Greenwood street ???????.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:05 AM

No Jimmy, Clara Street.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Kieran Mc Conville
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:17 AM

Teribus,how dare you say things against America in the light of loyalist paramilitaries running your streets in Bolton and a British government that is standing by and doing nothing about it! That's not the style here in America. That's the best you can offer your children and their future. More racism, more hatred, more of how much better we are over someone else because we have suffered more. Get real with this. We know who suffered greatly and who has made the step towards peace and it is NOT Unionists. The victimization of Catholics was not a fantasy, it was a reality and live up to what you, your government, and your groups like the Orange Order and the Apprentice Boys did to maintain the status quo. Time and time again it's collusion between paramilitaries, the police and the army and more people dead and more killed. Some country you have to boast about here and some courage you have to tell the rest of the world anything. This for God, country and king is not going to cut it anymore. Then you have the gall to sit around and see who killed more than the other like this is come old English battle where the largest numbers who lives wins. Really sad, really sad. Oh so we are way behind you. Sure just say the wrong word to minority or break a hate crime here in the US and see what comes your way by the means of the law. You get jail. We do not have Ian P's in political office chanting some anti-Catholic hate that belongs back in the 1600's. You do. Say you belong to hate group and you might just as well as not plan on getting a job. If we are so behind the ball, then why did you see all the Blacks being helped in the South after the hurricanes? I did not see anyone shooting them. It was tough but aid came and its still pouring in down there. We are Americans and its time to help your neighbor. Debate anytime. Just do not give me we do not understand nonsense, I know what your visiting army did in Ireland, and you come here to say your proud about it ?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Laurence Menary
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 09:35 AM

Loyalist's Surrender!!!!! Peace is on the way. Thank God! Flags and murals removed in Belfast yesterday as the LVF prepares to go out of business FLAGS have been taken down and murals painted over in Belfast ahead of the anticipated disbandment of the Loyalist Volunteer Force terrorist group. LVF trappings were removed from one of its strongholds in the Ballysillan district of north Belfast yesterday. Negotiators trying to end a violent feud between the LVF and rival terrorists said it was part of a strategy to wind up the group before the end of the year. Two dates for making a formal announcement have been discussed - Remembrance Sunday and the anniversary of the murder of its former leader, Billy "King Rat" Wright's murder. "Total disbandment has been on the cards since last Christmas," a source close to the LVF said. "But if you get one big step the hawks would immediately dive in and spoil it. That's why it's being done gingerly, with moves like the flags and murals coming down." Even so, many will be sceptical of any declaration by an organisation steeped in murder and drugs. To this end, secret discussions involving a number of clergymen have continued, but before it can announce its men have been stood down, a truce with the larger Ulster Volunteer Force is still to be brokered. The UVF has murdered four men since the latest shooting war with its sworn enemies erupted on the streets of Belfast in July. Tensions between the two loyalist factions have festered since Wright formed the new organisation after being thrown out of the UVF in 1996. A year later, on December 27, Wright t was assassinated by republicans inside the Maze jail. Allegations that prison staff colluded with the killers are to be studied when a public inquiry into his murder gets underway next spring. Mediators attempting to end the latest power struggle among loyalists are believed to have made significant progress. Despite UVF pledges to wipe out the splinter organisation, no one has been killed for two months. During that period, the LVF is understood to have discussed making a major response to the IRA's September 26 declaration that its armed struggle was over. The British government has also been approached about financing advice centres and post-conflict structures if the LVF's army council sells disbandment to the rank and file. "An awful lot of hard and sensitive work has gone on in the background," one adviser said. Pastor Kenny McClinton, who has worked as an LVF intermediary in the past, refused to comment on any initiatives. "If there was anything going on, it would be much too sensitive for me to talk about," he said. "However, I would applaud any move towards a resolution of the conflict within loyalism and the wider community." So Teribus what will you do now ? these were the guys you depended on to kill the Provo's between drugs deals . Are the Provo's going to be allowed to walk the streets ? These were the guys the British army and N.I. police force colluded with.Also what do you think about the fact that today the homes of 16 police officers were raided and four police stations too ! The case against them is corruption.Can this be the same force you so lovong admire ?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 01:21 PM

Report in Thursdays Belfast Newsletter .September 17, 2005

Love Ulster Organise Rally
According to William Frazer leader of the group F.A.I.R. Love Ulster have 'penciled' in October 29th for a march from the Shankill Road to Belfast City centre for what the organisers claim will be a 'peaceful protest'. Victims' groups, Orangemen, loyalist bands and many others from across Northern Ireland will be called to the streets of Belfast to show the "the deep feelings of Protestant, unionist and loyalist people at this time". Mr. Frazer and local Orange Grand Master Dawson Bailey said according to reports coming in to them this is set to be one of the largest rallies Belfast City City has seen in years. It will remember all those brave Ulstermen and members of the British Army that gave their lives here during the troubles.Numbers in excess of 60,000 are expected. It will show unity of the Ulster people. Also, a special edition of the Ulster campaign newspaper is also being prepared by the Shankill Mirror.

Well now folks it is now 6.15pm on Saturday the 29th of October and The Love Ulster rally is over.Less than 1,800 turned up to remember the dead Ulstermen and British Army personal that died here during the troubles.Most of those in attendance were in band uniforms.They also wanted to show unity of all Protestants in Ulster.
Dear oh dear oh dear. Looks like they have been forgotten, not remembered ! We see figures on this site all the time, what about these figures ?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:21 AM

Epona,
Wolfgang obtained his data from Sutton's Index

Some years ago similar figures were posted from Amnesty International.

Are you shocked at the number of killings attributable to Republican paramilitaries? Does it change your outlook at all?

You may not be able to get a further breakdown of the Republican groups, But PIRA is far and away the biggest of them. Omagh is perhaps the only large scale massacre committed by a break away group.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 08:43 AM

Epona,

Sutton table
Most questions can be answered taking that table as a start. But it took me a while to find out how the cross tabulations work.

in short:
(P)IRA (without DAAD) according to that table is responsible for 1706 of the 2055 for all republican paramilitaries together.
Next deadly organisation is UVF, 426, BTW, then British Army, 297)
Next deadly organisation on the Republican side is the INLA (113).

The 1706 dead for which the IRA is responsible in Suttons table (status summary by organisation crosstabulation) can be split up like this:
1011 British security (285 RUC and ex-RUC; 455 British Army; 222 UDR or ex-UDR; the rest being smaller number of (ex)-Prison officers, Royal navy; territorial army, British police etc)
516 Civilian
   7 Irish security
32 Loyalist Paramilitaries
140 Republican Paramilitaries

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:22 PM

What is the breakdown for deaths in England, Scotland and Wales during the Blitz ? I know the Germans killed 1,890 in Belfast alone.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:25 PM

Wolfgang, just realised the Germans killed more in the North of Ireland than the Provo's !

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Wolfgang, I have said sorry several times on this site for the loss of life during the armed struggle and it wasn't accepted. Seeing you have all our data and I have yours, why not have a try yourself to see do people accept it from you. I will let you know if I accept it when you post.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Tommy Mc Garrell
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 12:51 PM

Oh Keith has appeared ! Got your big spoon to try and stir the pot ? I have read your recent comments on Ireland.Any chance of somthing new in your posts ?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 02:40 PM

Give me a break Tommy please.
Epona's very reasonable question had been overlooked, so I responded.
Problem?

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM

Hello! Thanks for the follow-up to my question. I checked out the Sutton table but was unable to find reference to how many civilians were killed by the provos. Will go back on tonight and scour it thoroughly. I do like the Cain site...visit it frequently and very surprised I'd never seen the table before! I must say that I'm surprised the numbers attributed to the provos aren't higher. They weren't given the title of the most successful guerilla army ever for nothing. Thanks again for the link! I'll try to check back in after doing some more research! :)

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Oct 05 - 07:21 PM

Hope you get your answer to your question E. And hope you don't have to wait as long as I have to the figures I require.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 03:20 AM

Epona,
If you count success by the numbers of people slaughtered, I suppose some of the Islamic terror groups deserve that honour.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: GUEST,Ahmed Byrne
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 03:47 AM

Well, you can read the British Army and the Loyalist Paramilitaries as one organisation, as far as I'm concerned, like the boys who didn't bother to take off their uniforms before they killed Fran O'Toole and the Miami Showband.

Maybe Teribus could give us a little insight into collusion (a practice that he agrees with) as it appeared to him

I salute the IRA, Teribus!

They performed a necessary function in my growing up. They were the only voice the Nationalist had that would be listened to eventually, and as it has been proved here that the average Brit is anti-Irish, and has been since time immemorial, you would have thought that that kind of attitude would have gone a long way in explaining the woes the English people have suffered because of the intransigence of their leaders.

Do you know what the trouble with 'Brits' are?
They confuse their rascism and superiority complexes for self-righteousness.
And like America, who or what gave you the right to act as guardian of the World's morals.
Orther people don't always see things they way you lot do.
It doesn't make you right, however.

Interesting that Teribus should think that England have been trying to get rid of Ireland for 130 years or so, only that the Irish were too 'thick' to get their respective arses in order to rise to the occasion.

That is the trouble with revisionist thinking.

People who bomb shopping centers, commit 'atrocities' in the name of a cause, would much prefer to discuss that Cause, than to kill for it. After all, volunteers are prepared to lay down their life if necessary in the furtherance of that Cause
Revisionist thinking would have all Irish people being born with a gun in their hands. Not so.

Musical instruments and scholarly tomes, yes.

Freedom fighters are fighting for some form of freedom, in the normal scheme of things, and by definition against some form of tyranny.

Stop trying to be the guardian, Teribus. Because the guardians have been proven to be worse scum than the people they have fired that epithet at.

You reap what you sow, eh?

Are there any Christians around here that can explain the philosophy of that statement to you, Teribus?
'Karma' is another good one.

The attitude of the British Establishment has never taken into account the repercussions on it's citizens. They are the present day 'cannon fodder', and are always good for scoring political points with.

No more no less.

Wise up to your leaders, folks.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 04:25 AM

Ahmed,
You wrote "and as it has been proved here that the average Brit is anti-Irish"

It has not been proved, here or anwhere else, and in my experience it is not true.

I do accept that the average Brit is anti IRA.
Keith

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 04:45 AM

Keith, Epona did not bring the figures into the Equation in this thread it was Wolfgang, and true to form it gave you and Teribus the opportunity to attempt to get the boot into the Provisionals. Regarding your remark,success by the numbers of people slaughtered. Sorry but that's not worth an answer.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 04:53 AM

I think this goes back to the two definitions of "British" that we had that other long thread about, Keith. That REALLY, REALLY long thread. Did I mention how long it was?! No interest in revisiting that anytime in the near future as I've got enough headaches to deal with at the moment :)

Keith, as far as judging success by numbers of fatal casualties, I've actually never thought about considering that. To be honest, I'm sure you were very much trained like I was because our armies are so similar that a mission's success is determined by several things, but, for me and my troops one of those things has never been body count. So, as far as the PIRA having the label as being "the most successful," it has more to do with the lifespan of the organization, its adaptability, recruitment, and things of that nature that kept it running since 1969. Though, yes, I do understand some missions did center around people-targets vs. physical targets, and that those particular missions were deemed successful if their purpose was completed. I suppose that after hearing from several historians and instructors of military history that the IRA was the most successful guerilla in history, I did assume (which I know I should never do) that there would have been more deaths attributed to them.

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Epona
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM

should say "guerilla army" and not just "guerilla". Or maybe it should just say "gorilla"? :) Running on very little sleep and off to a very, very early meeting. Enjoy your day!

E

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 05:12 AM

I never thought that I would find myself agreeing with any of the opinions expressed by Keith, but I do in this case.

Ahmed, you state as fact that the average Brit is anti Irish, then go on to point out that not every Irishman is born with a gun in his hand.

Can you really not see the inconsistency of those two statements?

You are making a wild, and unprovable generalisation about one side, and refuting a similar generalisation about the other.

You have no real knowledge or evidence to support your anti Irish claim, and equally there is nothing to suggest that the majority of the Irish hate Brits.

It is far more likely that the hatred exists in the extremist minority in both communities, and the rest just want all this enmity to go away.

It is this sort of comment that prevents the dialogue that would make that happen. The past is past, and it is the future that should exercise the minds of both sides, but this cannot happen until we stop pointing out the evil in one another, and start talking about what we can do together now.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 07:22 AM

Sweeney,
Re figures, on 28th Oct Epona wrote "Teri has been extraordinarily kind to use some figures Wolfgang provided, one of the figures being 2055 deaths in the North attributed to "Republican paramilitaries." And, if anyone can help me with my questions, I would be very thankful. "

I was the first to reply, after thread had expired.

Re success and killing, yesterday Epona wrote " I must say that I'm surprised the numbers attributed to the provos aren't higher. They weren't given the title of the most successful guerilla army ever for nothing"

Subject: RE: Catholic Priest clears his chest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 05 - 07:23 AM

On subject of figures....
300